Can an officer get reduced in rank and still be allowed to stay on active duty?

2021-01-22T19:25:27-05:00

I was talking to a buddy from long ago. He was stationed at Ft. Leavenworth and he was telling me that there were some officers that were there serving time for various things and it got me to thinking about this question. We know that enlisted can get busted and lose a stripe but what about an officer. Can say a Captain get reduced in rank to a First Lieutenant?

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Jan 22 at 2021 7:34 PM

2021-01-22T19:34:42-05:00

SFC Krotzer, in 1955, avoided military justice by cutting one rocker off. CPT Kent never noticed or cared, but Krotzer never did submit his voluntold letter resigning from SFC. Krotzer was a hard ass for 30 days or so, then he started wearing uniforms with the two rockers again. Cpl Vic Burk

Response by Maj John Bell made Jan 22 at 2021 7:42 PM

2021-01-22T19:42:47-05:00

I've heard of it, but I've also heard of Bigfoot, Alien Abductions, and 15ft Alligators in the NYC sewers.

Response by CPT Catherine R. made Jan 22 at 2021 9:28 PM

2021-01-22T21:28:45-05:00

A CPT who gets demoted is going to be shown the door at the same time. They won't be serving at a lower grade.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2021 10:26 PM

2021-01-22T22:26:43-05:00

I will find you the regulation when I get a chance . Reduction in rank is not a punishment given to commissioned officers .

Response by LTJG Richard Bruce made Jan 22 at 2021 11:13 PM

2021-01-22T23:13:04-05:00

Officers who go to federal prison/custody are still on active duty. Separation usually occurs upon release.

Response by SSG Laurie Mullen made Jan 22 at 2021 11:14 PM

2021-01-22T23:14:02-05:00

Usually when you see a reduction in rank they're also retiring at the same time.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Jan 22 at 2021 11:33 PM

2021-01-22T23:33:44-05:00

They don't get reduced. If they violate the UCMJ, have sub standard performance, or commit misconduct that an enlisted man would face NJP over they can be eliminated from service or face courts martial for the specific charge or Art 133 Conduct Unbecoming. Art 133 usually means dismissal. If you do not retire, you lose your commission. No IRR. AR 600-8-24.

Lesser offenses usually end with a GOMOR, which will eventually result in separation due to non-promote.

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Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2021 12:30 AM

2021-01-23T00:30:37-05:00

I have every seen officer reduced personally. The only time I have heard of it is when they were subject to UCMJ and they were retired at the last rank there were honorably serving.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2021 3:07 AM

2021-01-23T03:07:41-05:00

I know of a CPT tjay was reduced in rank to 1LT, made CPT back and is trying to get a Command right now.

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made Jan 23 at 2021 8:37 AM

2021-01-23T08:37:52-05:00

Not as a punishment, but what is/was called a RIF. Cannot happen to USA Officers but Reserve officers in the AUS. Some to lower grade officers and some to NCOs. I had a SGM that retired as a Colonel in 1966 because of a RIF after the war. A friend of mine, a Captain AUS, back in the day you made Captain in 24 months, that was reduced to a 0 time in grade 1LT USAR when he left AD after 36 months. Back then it took 3 years from 2LT to 1LT in USAR. Retired a LTC, USAR.

Response by 1SG Billye Jackson made Jan 23 at 2021 8:53 AM

2021-01-23T08:53:02-05:00

Had a Cpt./ Commander who was found Guilty of Art.133 for Frat/Adultery. He was relived of Command once Charges were made and forced to resin his Commission. He was Packed and Gone in 72 hours. This was in Germany in 97. Correct me if I'm wrong but all Officers are Promoted/ Commissioned by the President ,and can only be Demoted by Promoting Authorly.

Response by MAJ Ron Peery made Jan 23 at 2021 11:40 AM

2021-01-23T11:40:55-05:00

Yes, until he or she gets passed over for promotion, which will happen.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2021 11:57 AM

2021-01-23T11:57:15-05:00

Here is an example of the one case that I know of. He was demoted to the last rank he served honorably.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/21/us/general-in-sex-case-jeffrey-sinclair-to-retire-with-a-2-rank-demotion.html

General in Sex Case to Retire With a 2-Rank Demotion (Published 2014)

Brig. Gen. Jeffrey A. Sinclair, who was charged with sexual assault before the case crumbled earlier this year, will be eligible for retirement benefits, including pay, but at a lower level.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2021 4:11 PM

2021-01-23T16:11:37-05:00

Short answer-it’s possible to reduce an officer in rank. But super-duper highly unlikely that if done they will stay after and serve.

I have heard and personally witnessed 1LT/CPT who were reduced and were retained; but it has to be a minor offense they got embroiled into and not primary offender and they go before a board to retain. All will normally get passed over or QMPd in time I am sure-but no data available outside halls of HRC to confirm.

If an officer is found guilty of a high crime, they will lose thier commission and be reduced to PV1 while serving at USDB and when released dishonorably discharged.

If remanded to Civil authorities, they are dishonorably discharged and lose commission usually after civil proceedings concluded but if 1st degree felony will be processed out prior to being remanded to civilian custody.

A whole bunch to unpack here and some would be “it depends” on the command and of course a JAG would know more about current precedents that would definitely be different than 80’s and before examples. Our Army has changed dramatically since then

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2021 10:41 PM

2021-01-23T22:41:23-05:00

This doesn’t happen. Many years ago some combat promoted officers had to revert back to enlisted ranks but I suspect it has been over 50 years since that last happened. For poor conduct an officer can be retired at the rank last honorably served. I’ve seen this happen a few times.

Response by MSG John Duchesneau made Jan 24 at 2021 1:23 AM

2021-01-24T01:23:47-05:00

Some officers were reduced in rank after both World Wars due to drawdowns in the size of the military. When it comes to disciplinary infractions the theory is that if an officer did something severe enough to merit reducing him in rank, the fact the officer committed the offense is sufficient evidence that the officer is not suitable to remain in service. The result is that if an officer commits an serious offense which does not merit sending him to prison, he is "encouraged" to either resign or retire immediately. So the answer to your question is "No".

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Jan 24 at 2021 12:07 PM

2021-01-24T12:07:31-05:00

It happened on the "A" Team.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Jan 24 at 2021 1:36 PM

2021-01-24T13:36:49-05:00

Law and Service policy determine how long an officer must serve in a grade to retire in that grade.
I think it's normally 3 years. Retiring before the 3 years is up means the officer would retire at the lower grade. I've most often seen it happen when very senior officers get into serious trouble and retire at a lower grade in lieu of court martial.

Update: Please see Maj Daniel Pempel comments. He is more informed than me. Appreciate his input and edited my comments accordingly.

Response by SSG John Jensen made Jan 25 at 2021 3:53 PM

2021-01-25T15:53:26-05:00

I've known a number of officers who were reduced to enlisted for failing to complete whichever education requirements. A Company Cdr (National Guard) who ran out of time for his Bachelors degree to SGT, and a Major (National Guard ) who didn't finish professional development requirements to SSG - the people in his new unit called him the Staff Sergeant Major!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2021 1:04 PM

2021-01-27T13:04:02-05:00

As a squad leader, I actually had a cadet get kicked out of the Academy and arrived to my unit as a specialist. It was the craziest thing because his military issued CAC still said 2LT. I had to take him to DEERS to get it changed. I do have a bunch of 31E buddies who've worked at various prisons and said when officers are in prison they are no longer addressed by their previous rank. If someone has encountered an issue that is not necessarily illegal but against the good order and discipline of the military (i.e. lieutenant sleeping with a Soldier), are usually shown the door.

Response by MSgt Nathan Krawitz made Jan 30 at 2021 2:04 PM

2021-01-30T14:04:01-05:00

Depends on the circumstances. An officer serving in a billet of a higher rank might wear the uniform of the minimum required rank while hoping to promote into that rank later. Breveting was a normal process in the past, so a brigade commander might be a 1-star general, but a lack of officers might have an O-5 doing it. Later, when manning allows it, the person breveted goes back to their actual rank. It doesn't happen as much these days, but an Engineering department head on my first ship was a LtCdr (O-4). When he left the ship, I saw he was wearing LT stripes (O-3). I discovered he was frocked to the rank. I did not find out if he was passed over for promotion or what.

Response by Maj Martin Smith made Jan 30 at 2021 5:05 PM

2021-01-30T17:05:17-05:00

Knew an O-5 reduced to O-4 for off duty 'problems' regarding personal debts. No booze, no adultery just spend, spend and spend. Had over 18 years, stayed for 22 and retired as an O-5 because of ROPA.

Response by Maj Dov Kawamoto made Feb 11 at 2021 3:57 PM

2021-02-11T15:57:22-05:00

I didn't see this so, hope not a repeat: Another weird case is when an enlisted service member is commissioned, then won't get promoted to O4, has less than 18yrs of total service and not eligible to retire, may revert to E7 or highest enlisted grade held and continue to serve until eligible for retirement.

Response by MAJ Kevin Cunnion made Feb 18 at 2021 6:39 PM

2021-02-18T18:39:50-05:00

It’s possible to reduce an officer to his permanent rank, where he/she can continue to serve, but I don’t it has happened since WWII

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Jan 21 at 2022 1:36 PM

2022-01-21T13:36:52-05:00

I’d guess not, they’d get the option to resign their commission first, if not then loss of commission and the door. If it stays the equivalent of say what office hours might be, and in house punishment by the supervisor, if the infraction is chargeable then I’d guess your at the mercy of legal and a court martial. Then there’s the discharge options, there I have no clue. Depends I guess on the conditions of the resignation or loss of commission, or the results of the CM.

Response by Capt Gilbert Nelson made Jan 21 at 2022 2:16 PM

2022-01-21T14:16:03-05:00

We had a First Lieutenant who was borrowing money from people in the squadron and bouncing the checks when he repaid them. He received an Article 15, and subsequently a very substandard effectiveness report. He had about a year left in his commitment and was allowed to serve it. He wasn’t promoted to Captain and was separated.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Apr 6 at 2022 4:44 AM

2022-04-06T04:44:29-04:00

My friend Cpl Vic Burk as the Vietnam War was winding down, and the need for military helicopter pilots reduced significantly, the reductions in force [RIF] became effective. Numbers of Captain and 1st Lieutenant pilots were reduced in grade to warrant officers.