Can CID task a non-CID/MP soldier to assist with an investigation?

2017-07-11T12:37:22-04:00

My old squad leader claimed he was temporarily farmed out to CID & tasked with helping in a criminal investigation at different unit.

I don't buy it, but others claim they "knew someone who knew someone". M-kay. Can CID really make soldiers defacto investigators (NOT traditional informants) to include attaching them to a whole different unit, with NO education/training in criminal investigation?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 11 at 2017 12:42 PM

2017-07-11T12:42:54-04:00

the air force investigators have gotten into a lot of trouble for use of "special Informants"

Response by SGT Eric Knutson made Jul 11 at 2017 12:46 PM

2017-07-11T12:46:40-04:00

Direct assignment, I do not believe so, for a temporary assignment because of special skills or knowledge, yes. They would have to go to your chain of command (Tradition and Courtesies for sure) and requests your assistance, Usually granted as far as I know because it is a rare thing. I have seen it happen once, but for further info I would direct this to one of our MP personnel for a more full answer (or to correct me and show that what I saw was a bolt out of the blue.)

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Jul 11 at 2017 12:49 PM

2017-07-11T12:49:27-04:00

Just to flesh it out a bit more since there is a character limit above, the tale is that for unknown reasons, he was selected by CID to report to a different unit (I think same post, but I don't remember all the details anymore) get in tight with those soldiers and report on some supposedly illegal activities. He had no prior knowledge of any crimes or knew any of the soldiers in that unit. He was basically a spy inserted into the unit and reporting back to CID.

Sounds too "spy novel" for me to accept at face value, but maybe I'm wrong.

Response by PO2 Jason Youngberg made Jul 11 at 2017 12:52 PM

2017-07-11T12:52:32-04:00

Why wouldn't CID send in one for their own that's actually trained to do undercover work?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 11 at 2017 12:58 PM

2017-07-11T12:58:59-04:00

SGT Dave Tracy I can see them asking SFs/MPs to assist in an investigation, but, recollecting my training through Security Forces, to actually take part in an undercover assignment, you would need to be part of CID/OSI, unless expressly authorized from your CoC.
The only way I can think to insert a regular member would be to get authorization from CoC, but CoC would keep said assignment private from member in order to keep the details secret so said member doesn't spill the beans.
I'm with you, though, that sounds a bit James Bond-y.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 11 at 2017 1:22 PM

2017-07-11T13:22:51-04:00

I was contacted by CID that a Soldier in our Battalion was being utilized as an informant to gain additional information on an individual that was engaged in selling drugs to personal on our Army base. I asked how our Soldier was involved in this and the agent stated that our Soldier was a low level drug seller and they were trying to take down the network in Colorado Springs. So, I would answer Yes to your question.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 11 at 2017 1:27 PM

2017-07-11T13:27:38-04:00

So I see none of my CID counter-parts have answered yet so I'll tell you what I know. First, for a little background on myself, I have worked some cases in the past with CID as a CI Special Agent in a field office (when I was with the 902nd--they were cases that involved alleged support to terrorism which is where CID and CI often cross paths). In any case, I did see actual MPs working in some CID field offices at this time in addition to plain clothes MP's conducting investigations, but these were exclusively MPI's (Military Police Investigators--MP's that have been to MPI school and have a V5 ASI I believe. They handle various cases that CID can't get to--mostly misdemeanors requiring follow-up investigation if I'm not mistaken). I have not personally seen but have heard from some of my MP friends that they have also assisted CID in the past but nothing too in-depth. My understanding is that regular every day run-of-the-mill MP's have very limited investigative training. However, based on what I said above I wouldn't put it past the realm of possibility. With that, the person you describe does not sound like he meets any of these requirements and may just be exaggerating or outright lying to look cool. But, without knowing more about him there is no way I could tell you for sure. I would take anything he says with a grain of salt based on what you are saying.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Jul 11 at 2017 10:04 PM

2017-07-11T22:04:18-04:00

The only thing I have heard of like this was during Vietnam but it was very unusual. The real world person that Michael J Fox's character In Casualties of War was based was held up in Vietnam while the investigation proceeded, was transferred to the CID unit that was investigating. He took investigators to the places involved and helped recover the victims remains. He would help the MPs on straggler sweeps.

I think CW4 Shaun Collins is right, sounds like someone embellishing a confidential informant role.

Response by PFC David Gettman made Jul 12 at 2017 10:59 AM

2017-07-12T10:59:41-04:00

Can't answer your question but I wanted to share a CID story from a long time ago. I think the statute of limitations has come and gone. ;-)

In 1973 I was part of a small detachment of MP's from Company A, 385th MP Bn, 15th MP Brigade, in Neu Ulm, Germany. There were maybe 20 of us in the detachment. I was the senior patrolman on day shift one day and was in a restricted area at an ammo dump, 4-wheeling in my new M151A2. Wasn't supposed to be there, but there were some good hills to climb and there was nothing going on that day.

I was following the trail around the perimeter fence and was part way up one particularly steep incline when I spotted an OD green canvas satchel lying next to the fence. I backed the jeep down and walked back up to get it. Looked inside and didn't know what it was so I figured I had better take it to the MP station despite having to admit where I found it.

Turned it in to the desk sergeant and he went ballistic, yelling for our MPI agent. The MPI agent went ballistic and started yelling for our CID agent. The CID agent went ballistic and tried to give it back to me, telling me to put it back where I found it and not to say anything to anybody. Turns out it was a satchel of C-4 and nobody wanted to be responsible. I refused to take it back and they were still arguing over it when I left. No idea whatever happened to it.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Jul 12 at 2017 12:04 PM

2017-07-12T12:04:53-04:00

Gonna call BS on this one. I can see maybe using the member as a confidential informant but definitely not as an active investigator. That takes specialized training the average "beat cop" just doesn't receive.

Response by CW2 Sam Warren, CFE, CIFI made Jul 13 at 2017 1:59 PM

2017-07-13T13:59:57-04:00

I have to echo the comments of CW4 Shaun Collins. We did, from time to time get non-MP soldiers attached to the local CID office in an OJT status, always with the purpose of eventually qualifying to apply to become a CID Agent. I saw CID Agents go undercover in specific, targeted units or on-base activities, with specific goals in mind. In all my years, I never heard of CID recruiting some random soldier and sending them undercover for anything.

Response by SSG Charlie Carlson made Dec 2 at 2017 1:24 AM

2017-12-02T01:24:57-05:00

CID agents can recruit you as a source or CI (confidential informant). Of course they don't make you do it as it is voluntary. My sources were some soldiers who hung out at the club and had their own car club that sometimes hung out with another club that was known to steal vehicles and chop them and sell to these guys and running drugs. All were soldiers believe it or not.

Response by CW3 Michael Clifford made Dec 3 at 2017 11:07 AM

2017-12-03T11:07:23-05:00

One area which has not been mentioned is assistance that non-MP soldiers provide in criminal investigations within their MOS. For example, in 17 years I used engineer mine detection teams in Germany on attempted murder investigations in locating the suspect’s handgun used to shoot another soldier. At Fort Knox and Fort Leonard Wood, we used aviation flight crews to held eradicate marihuana fields growing on the reservation. I used EOD to assist on a break-in of the ASP at Camp Roberts, CA when I was assigned at Fort Ord, CA. In all cases, the soldiers’ chain-of-command was aware of and involved in providing the support. We would also provide support troops with CID Certificates of Achievement. In a 20-year Army career, 17 years with the CID Command, I never used a non-CID/MP in a covert operation.

Response by SSG Charlie Carlson made Mar 1 at 2018 7:59 PM

2018-03-01T19:59:42-05:00

This can happen but only as a CI (Confidential Informant) or source. As a CID Agent in Hawaii I never "recruited" soldiers to help me in any investigation but did develop sources both military and off post civilians. CID is a unique animal. We are the FBI of the Army and we have powers to conduct investigations even off post. During my time as an agent I recruited several pawn shop owners as CI's and they would provide me with information I needed on larceny cases, etc.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2018 8:02 PM

2018-03-01T20:02:19-05:00

"Crowd Control and Crime Scene Security"

Response by CW3 Michael Clifford made Oct 25 at 2018 8:16 AM

2018-10-25T08:16:25-04:00

I used combat engineers several times in my career to find buried handguns used in homicides attempted homicides. I used them as they had the practical knowledge in using mine detection equipment. In both instances, I had two-two soldier teams and an NCO. They were with me for less than a full day and in both cases found the guns we were seeking. They were very important to each case as the substantiated confessions by finding guns where the suspects said they buried them. All team members later received Certificates of Commendation from the CID commander.

Response by CW3 Michael Clifford made Oct 29 at 2021 8:23 AM

2021-10-29T08:23:08-04:00

I was a CID agent for 17 years from 1/78 through 12/94. I initially served as a Sergeant and retired as a CW3. In all of those years, I have never known the CID to use a non-investigator in an investigative role. That is why we routinely went to courses which were non-investigatory yet fields where we conducted a lot of investigations. For example, I completed courses in club operations, property disposal and contracting. I was also recognized as a trained forensic interviewer of children.

What the CID would often do is utilize certain MOSs for their unique skills, such as combat engineers. In Germany, a three-man mine detection crew located a .25 semi-automatic in less than 10 minutes. These personnel were utilized after going through their chain-of-command and this makes sergeant majors proud when their soldiers shine. Back then, you also received extra promotion points for certificates of achievement signed by a LTC or higher. We’d always award those troopers with such CID Certificates of Achievement.