Can I be denied leave?

2016-10-25T19:42:53-04:00

Okay, it's been 11 calendar months since my last leave period. I was on Rear-end, then got shoved on Gate Guard for 7 months, came back and went straight to Gunnery, now am in Master Drivers Course. I need leave, my morale is drifting and I feel like I'm getting screwed. I told my PSG I would help her for Gunnery and after that I would go on leave. Now she says "Higher came down and told everyone, they can't take leave until they have use or lose days." I have 55 Day's of leave saved up not by my fault. Am I getting screwed around?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 7:46 PM

2016-10-25T19:46:11-04:00

Rear-D*

Response by TSgt Scott Hurley made Oct 25 at 2016 8:01 PM

2016-10-25T20:01:57-04:00

From what I know. You can not be denied leave unless its because of duty, or there are others that have put in for the same time as you. You will have to take it higher than your PSG to straighten it out. And if from what you said it came from higher up, they have to justify it as to why. From what your PSG said the use or lose is not a justification.

Response by SFC George Smith made Oct 25 at 2016 8:02 PM

2016-10-25T20:02:02-04:00

yes...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 8:32 PM

2016-10-25T20:32:44-04:00

That's kind of a flip from units I've been to. Normally they prefer you to use your days before you have use or lose.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Oct 25 at 2016 8:33 PM

2016-10-25T20:33:23-04:00

Generally speaking, Leave is a RIGHT (as in Legally & Regulatory defined as a Right), compared to Liberty which is a Privilege. The Commander has LOTS of Discretion about when you can take it, based on mission.

That said, submit the papers, and let them deny it. Don't take anyone's word for it. Submit leave papers. The sooner you submit papers, the better the command can deconflict your schedule with others. No single individual is essential to mission, especially if you are giving lots of notice (outside of deployment schedule).

Citation (Army):

http://www.forthoodsentinel.com/news/military-leave-it-s-a-right-not-a-privilege-granted/article_aaa7cfad-dd88-55d5-8bf2-f491019ba6d3.html

"Leave is a right (not a privilege) that is granted by Congress under federal law."

Edit: Added Citation

Military leave: It’s a right, not a privilege, granted by Congress under federal law

One of the frequent questions and issues Soldiers and Family members ask the III Corps Inpector General is about leave, particularly about emergency and convalescent leave.

Response by Maj John Bell made Oct 25 at 2016 8:49 PM

2016-10-25T20:49:23-04:00

I went without leave from July 1988 until October 1991 because of either school commands or mission critical billets. So the answer is yes, you can be denied leave. But the command also needs to have a very clear explanation for you, why you are being denied leave, something better than nobody can take leave until they have use em or lose em days.

Response by SSgt Dan Montague made Oct 25 at 2016 9:00 PM

2016-10-25T21:00:24-04:00

unless it is necessary for unit operations, leave is your right. You earn 30 days a year and have the right to use it. Are you maybe doing workups for a deployment?

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 9:03 PM

2016-10-25T21:03:37-04:00

A DA-31 is a REQUEST and Authority for Leave form. It's not an order nor a demand. So by definition, it can be denied. Leave isn't a right. It's an earned entitlement. That's why it's on your Leave and Earnings Statement. Although a commander can deny a request, he'll also have to face the consequences of a soldier losing any "use or loose" days.

Response by SSG Robert Webster made Oct 25 at 2016 9:20 PM

2016-10-25T21:20:27-04:00

Before this can actually be answered properly, a little bit more about your unit policy on leave is needed. Secondly, are you getting screwed around - probably, but are you getting screwed - probably not since you are not quite at the use or lose point. Interesting that you mentioned helping for Gunnery, being that you are an 88M (Motor Transport Operator) in what an Armor Brigade of the 1st Infantry Division. Wouldn't that be a normal part of your job? As far as attending the Master Drivers Course, do you not need that for career progression? You say that you were on Rear-end (I am taking that as you were part of the unit's rear detachment) and then spent 7 months on Gate Guard, then supported Gunnery, and now in the Master Drivers Course (local course and not the M9 course, I would venture to guess). My next question - is the unit just back from the deployment or is it still deployed? Next how is the deployment of the BCT to Korea impacting this? You say your morale is drifting; why, because you just came off Gate Guard duty then went directly into some type of training support and then to a Master Drivers Course. If it was Gate Guard duty that wore you down, what about that civilian that was either next to you or on the next over entry point? Oh wait a minute, they chose that and are well paid for that job (??). What is the outlook between now and 6 months from now? A lot of things to think about. How long have you been in this unit?

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Oct 25 at 2016 9:23 PM

2016-10-25T21:23:49-04:00

Have you thought about exercising your right to speak to your chain of command? Is there anything in writing stating what you were told?

Response by COL Jon Thompson made Oct 25 at 2016 10:01 PM

2016-10-25T22:01:52-04:00

Like several others have said here, leave is a right. However, commanders can determine when to allow it based on mission cycles and major training events. That should be applied equally across the board however. With the holidays coming up, what are the possibilities of taking leave around Thanksgiving or Christmas? The Army does not do a whole lot during the last 2 weeks of December and first week of January unless they are deployed or in the process of deploying.

Response by MSG David Johnson made Oct 25 at 2016 10:32 PM

2016-10-25T22:32:57-04:00

I answered on another post on here but I want to put it on the main question.

From looking at your profile and hearing your question, this is a question you should have been able to research and answer yourself.

Response by SPC Phil Norton made Oct 25 at 2016 11:23 PM

2016-10-25T23:23:28-04:00

I don't understand what happened to the military leave can be denied according to the units readiness requirements when I was in went a month or more on unit standby that means no drinking no leaving the base no going to the px with out permission we didn't complain about being screwed when I was in the first thing you were taught was that you didn't have the right to think thinking was for nco and com I'm sorry but the new lax stand the military has taken is doing an injustice to the troops let's go back to basics if everyone gets to stop and think how does anything get done take myself as a combat medic when you hear that scream you get there in the safest possible manner but you get there you can't say nope I could get shot in fact it's our job to cover that injured soldier with our own body to protect them so that others may serve dust off or dedicated unselfish service to our fighting forces these are creeds I lived by you were not drafted you volunteered find moral in your fellow soldiers that's how we got by we leaned on each other you will never find more loyal friends then the ones you make during your time in service now leave I fought for it once and won but it was terminal leave and the co was trying to make things hard for me because I embarrassed him that's another story but I searched the library and found the section that stated that no one had the authority to hinder a soldiers transition to civilian life I presented a copy to the 1st Sgt and he gave it to the co request signed I fought for my right to leave and then after 5years of civilian life I re enlisted and then I was told my usefulness as a soldier was up devastating my humble advice embrace your time in the good and bad one day it will all be done I have PTSD 100% disabled and all I want is to be back in not for the horrors I endured but for the brotherhood hell I guess I just miss my friends good luck hold your head high your doing something most people can't do even when its just guard duty

Response by Capt Chris McVeigh made Oct 26 at 2016 2:58 AM

2016-10-26T02:58:53-04:00

Yes you can be denied leave if operational commitments determine it is necessary. However, "you can't take leave until it is use it or lose it" is not a valid reason for denying leave.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 7:55 AM

2016-10-26T07:55:03-04:00

Unfortunately yes but, coming into the holiday season there should be no reason to be denied leave. However there is nothing wrong with checking if your PSG is being honest with you about the leave policy for your company and battalion. If there is a strict leave policy is usually because of CTC rotation or deployment or major training event.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 8:14 AM

2016-10-26T08:14:25-04:00

Ouch....sorry you're going through so much. I think you can still put a chit through and see if it will be approved or denied.

What I'm concerned with now is that your morale is down. Have you spoken with a Chaps or a battle buddy about this? I'm not saying that your leave will be denied but don't ride so much on it. I know you need a break, everyone does but find a break while you can. Talk to someone.

Hope you're doing ok.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Oct 26 at 2016 9:51 AM

2016-10-26T09:51:26-04:00

As many have already stated here, yes leave is a Right (as defined by Congressional Act) but Commanders have HUGE discretion for approval.

My best advice is to start generating a paper trail. Submit your leave request in writing on the appropriate forms. The AF had a specific form for Leave and/or Liberty. I assume the Army has similar. Submit the form, have the Commander deny in writing and then KEEP THE FORM SECURED! If/when you do end up in a use/lose situation, you'll have the evidence needed to retain those days without them being lost. Not to mention, IF it comes to an IG investigation, you'll have documented proof of denial. Without the forms, all the CO has to say is, "I never received a leave request from the SGT".

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Oct 26 at 2016 1:50 PM

2016-10-26T13:50:19-04:00

Boy I wish I could tell you something different, but I suspect you already know what the deal is. Absolutely it never hurts to ask, but if you've been around the Army long enough to be an NCO, you've been around long enough to have a fair idea what to expect.

Talk further with your chain-of-command, try some of these other channels others here have mentioned. Just keep working the problem. Can't hurt. Good luck.

Response by MSgt John Taylor made Oct 26 at 2016 1:59 PM

2016-10-26T13:59:11-04:00

You're granted 30 days of leave a year by congress, not your supervisor, your commander or the Army. Your commander is the one that manages the program and authorizes the leave request. There are many good reasons why they can deny your request at any time, but they are held accountable for them. You are also held accountable for your reasons for not being able to take leave throughout the year.

You didn't give the reason why they won't allow leaves as well as how long it's expected to last. I'm assuming that "no one below use or lose" is a temporary policy.

Response by SSgt Michael Cox made Oct 26 at 2016 2:01 PM

2016-10-26T14:01:31-04:00

The only time the unit is required to let you take leave is if you are in use or loose status and then only if they are not willing to write a letter stating why you are being denied leave. The letter will allow you to roll over more than 60 days so you don't loose any. The letter looks bad on the unit and the commander though so usually you will be allowed to take leave. In my personal experience as an aircraft maintainer while assigned to a special operations unit.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 3:35 PM

2016-10-26T15:35:44-04:00

Not to bust your chops, Sgt, but have you put in a leave request? As others have said, submit your request and force them to deny it in writing. It sounds to me your PSG is trying to pull a fast one on you.

Had a similar situation right before I retired. My supervisor tried to deny me leave (and I was in use/lose) and tell me I couldn't use it for what I wanted to. I told him I would submit my request and make him deny it in writing and then my next stop would be the commander's office. I took my leave. Know the appropriate written guidance not only for the Army, but for your company/division/brigade.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Oct 26 at 2016 3:42 PM

2016-10-26T15:42:01-04:00

I have a really hard time believing this the way it is written. No commander would make a policy like that unless there was a mission-critical need for manning. Is your unit deployed? Are you in a high-threat area (Korea, etc.?)

Response by SSG Brian Kresge made Oct 26 at 2016 4:20 PM

2016-10-26T16:20:59-04:00

I don't know about "screwed around," because leave policies exist for a reason. But I'm just going to commiserate with you. I've loved serving over the years, but one of our entitlements is our 30 days leave per year. I found, especially when I was with units with rapid deployment turnaround, that block leave was only ever as good as it was going to get. Fortunately, those things figure prominently into the training schedule, and you can plan vacations accordingly.
Every now and then, though, you get a sack attack from the big green weenie, especially when you're in the middle of doing what soldiers do. My advice is to try and rejuvenate morale as best you can, looking for two and four day weekends when you can, and take as much leave as you can when you finally can. If command can't accommodate, for whatever reason, and you can't convince them to hook a brother up, reframe your outlook until you can.
Wish you the best. Any time I've hit a low point, I remember that there were dudes who deployed from Alaska to Iraq who were literally sitting on the tarmac back in Alaska at what they thought was the end of their tour when it was extended out to 18 months. Be The Dude, and remember that The Dude Abides.

Response by SFC Russ Chapman made Oct 26 at 2016 8:56 PM

2016-10-26T20:56:29-04:00

The truth be known he probably had the opportunity for leave and chose not to go now the training calendar full he wants to go keep from going to the field give them a straw

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Oct 27 at 2016 12:30 AM

2016-10-27T00:30:59-04:00

So what is on the BDE, BN, and CO training calendar coming up? Is the unit using block leave in it? Are you among those that can use block leave? Recommend going to your PSG with those items, circle some dates, and ask which of these can my soldiers and I rotate on leave. Ask if there is a plan to allow people leave, so you can hold your leave until then. Pose it as a team player. Explain that you do not want to screw the command with last minute use/lose requests, you'd like to manage your leave like a good leader.

I can tell you stories about how Hooah I was foregoing 3 years of leave to undergird retirement, or going a whole 2 year command without it, but it blew. It didn't have to. Leave a 20-30 day balance in case of emergencies, but take some leave now and then. Missions are missions, you will always have to work around that. 45-55 days is a good trigger point to take leave.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2016 7:05 AM

2016-10-27T07:05:16-04:00

Leave is a right. In the Army it's the Commanders discretion. If this is the case in your unit then the answer is simple use the open door policy (every commander has one) be an adult and talk to the 1 person who can approve or disapprove your leave and explain your desire to take leave. If denied you can go higher which will only help because a CPT doesn't want to get their ass chewed daily from a LTC or Col. But they (Ltc/Col) cannot sign your DA 31, the regulation specifically gives that authority to the company/battery commander.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2016 6:20 PM

2016-10-27T18:20:11-04:00

Why did your commander day no leaves unless you're in use/lose status? Is it due to an approaching leave block prior to deployment, out something like that? Are there any operational considerations? Did you ask when you can take leave? If so, what was the response? If there's no major event like a deployment, AND there's no designated block leave period coming up, AND the sole reason for denying you leave is that you aren't currently sitting on 40+ days of leave, then I might recommend elevating a complaint (I would normally recommend your Bn CSM before IG). But I'd want more details before making such a recommendation...

Response by SSG Donny Martin made Oct 28 at 2016 1:50 PM

2016-10-28T13:50:08-04:00

Leave is a privilege not a right however, submit your leave form it takes two signatures to deny your leave. Put your PSG on the spot and ensure you follow up.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2016 8:44 PM

2016-11-01T20:44:41-04:00

Leave is a right. the commander has discretion as to when you take it. So assuming you have use or lose leave and request to take a few days off your commander can reject your request but if you loose leave me st be abl to justify the refusal. If there is no reasonable response it is the commanders butt on the line.if the commander has justification for refusing your leave it still goes up to DA but you have a chance to recover it.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2016 12:46 PM

2016-12-02T12:46:19-05:00

If you are currently at 55 days, then you already have use or lose. Leave is tracked by fiscal year, so any time that you will be over 60 days of leave accrued by the end of September of the current year, then you have use or lose days.

As others have stated, put in for leave now according to your unit policies, and keep the record if you are denied. Try to let your supervisor advocate for you, as it will benefit the unit more to let you take leave now than it will to make you wait for arbitrary reasons.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2016 3:02 PM

2016-12-02T15:02:28-05:00

Have you actually tried talking to you commander about this? There should be a published policy letter detailing your commander's leave and pass policy and what the criteria is for approval or disapproval. It makes no sense to wait until personnel have use or lose days since that limits the flexibility of the leadership to balance the personnel with mission requirements.