Can I decline being promoted to Corporal?

2021-03-16T14:28:36-04:00

I passed the board recently and now im being told i may have to be a CPL until i go to BLC or until i get back from ranger school. I dont want to take responsibility as a team leader and still get paid as a SPC. Can i deny a 4187 ?

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2021 2:40 PM

2021-03-16T14:40:23-04:00

If I was your BN CSM who approved you passing the board I'd undo it upon reading this. You want to be a NCO and be a Team Leader, have been approved to become one, but don't want to do the job until you get the $$$? That's not being a leader, that's not what an NCO does.
Being a Corporal is essentially being a SGT just without the extra $. Your unit wants you to do your new position while you wait to finish BLC - not to get cheap NCO labor out of you.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2021 2:40 PM

2021-03-16T14:40:27-04:00

You can talk with your leadership about it.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2021 2:45 PM

2021-03-16T14:45:57-04:00

Read up on declining promotions. My first seargant once looked a counseling on a soldier saying he didn't want to get promoted. Declining a promotions may get you barred from renlistment

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2021 2:53 PM

2021-03-16T14:53:16-04:00

While I said you can talk to your leadership, I want you to take something into account. When I was a SGT, I was doing the duties of a SSG, until I found myself as a SGT doing the duties of a SFC. I was put in those higher leadership roles because the powers that be saw the potential. I sure as hell wasn't getting the SSG not SFC pay back then. But, I still did my job and I still led my Soldiers.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2021 3:14 PM

2021-03-16T15:14:32-04:00

I don't believe you can. I want to say this is the new way forward for the Army. It came out in a MILPER message I believe. But instead of getting a "P" status the Army will be making them CPLs instead to start the mentoring process as a leader. I think this is a great idea. It is a challenge but then so is leadership. If you don't want to accept the lateral promotion you can request to not be promoted and rescind the board results. In all honestly I believe the intent is to leave you in place as a CPL in your current position. Your unit may try to place you into a leadership role in preparation for when you come back and are promoted to SGT.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2021 3:55 PM

2021-03-16T15:55:49-04:00

Check it out, (this isn't meant to be rude, but take it for what it's worth). There will be times in your career when your placed in a position of higher responsibility without the pay. From example, as a SGT I served 13 months rated time as a PSG. I spent a few months on deployment serving in a 1LT position, neither time did I get a pay bump, it just is what it is. Understand that now and it won't hit you as hard when you're one rank and they have you take on higher responsibilities. Take the corporal, it does nothing but help you prepare to actual promote to Sergeant.

And yes I'm pretty sure you can refuse it, but it will bite you in the ass.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Mar 16 at 2021 4:21 PM

2021-03-16T16:21:16-04:00

So are you saying, it's all about the money? Are you better than anybody else who was a CPL or was a SPC, made into an acting team leader w/o the stripes? You are wearing a Falcon crest, just How many CPL's have you seen in the Regiment. My 14 yrs. I saw 3- 1- SVN vet who got busted every 4-5 months of drunk. Disorderly or 2 days AWOL. I was the 2nd while waiting for E5 points to come down, and the Asst Supply NCOIC who doubled as the company armorer. If this gets around, I would worry about changing stripes, you could just wait for hard stripes sometime down the road and any further progression might be slow.

Response by SP5 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2021 4:25 PM

2021-03-16T16:25:20-04:00

SGT Private RallyPoint Member Your choice to deny an opportunity will come with consequences. Think through the effect your action will have on those who have, up to that point, considered you a potential leader. To hear, what is in effect, "not my MOS", will cause some serious rethinking.
Your question sounds like a union member who is being asked to perform a task outside the specific terms of a contract. Not the question from an outstanding military combat arms troop being provided an opportunity to demonstrate capability.
I have been away from active military life for many years, but still remember accepting any chance to learn and develop when it was presented.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2021 4:46 PM

2021-03-16T16:46:48-04:00

You can still be a team leader as a SPC, you don't have to be a CPL to be in a leadership position.

If your goal is to pass Ranger School then you need to be in a leadership position practicing leadership. Contrary to popular belief Ranger School is not just some "gut check" to see if you're tough enough. You are being evaluated in a leadership position and being graded upon your performance as a leader. Ranger School literally IS being a Team Leader, and a Squad Leader, and a PL and PSG over and over again. The people who do the best are the ones with leadership experience. If you think you're going to walk in there with zero leadership experience under the best of conditions - a garrison environment - and expect to perform well leading Rangers under the worst possible conditions, you will become a resident of the RTB Gulag

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made Mar 16 at 2021 4:52 PM

2021-03-16T16:52:15-04:00

LMAO - you can be slotted as a team leader and have the responsibility even as a SPC - the lateral promotion gives your orders more weight. You do not get to decide if you want the position or not, Command makes the decision, and if that is where they want you, then that is what you will do. Do you want to lead or is it just a paycheck.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2021 4:52 PM

2021-03-16T16:52:22-04:00

That's your choice, and you have every right to it. All you have to do is not sign the 4187.

But if you don't want additional responsibility until you get the additional money, I have some bad news for you...
Not only did you join the wrong organization for that, but most of the organizations in the private sector will also be wrong for you.

It's been mentioned in most of these posts, but E4s work as TM LDRs. SGTs work as SLs.
SSGs and SGTs work as PSGs. I have seen SFCs hold a CPT billet overseas.
In the private sector I have seen junior salaried and hourly employees manage programs and people prior to getting paid management.

That's just the way the world works; all too often the job needs to be filled faster than the paperwork or requirements can be completed.

But if that's not you, then you will be punching a time clock for as long as you are working your post-military career.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2021 5:03 PM

2021-03-16T17:03:10-04:00

You don't want responsibility if you're not getting paid for it? Wow. Also - you can be a team leader or squad leader as a SPC so...what would you do then? Deny that leadership position?

Also realize that a lot of us have performed higher than our paygrades and weren't paid for it. I was a section NCOIC as a SPC, for example. Straight out of AIT.

Lots of people are working in positions higher than their rank/paygrade meaning they don't get paid for it.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2021 5:08 PM

2021-03-16T17:08:36-04:00

SGT Private RallyPoint Member Never pass up a promotion and the chance to hone your leadership skills. As mentioned by SGM Private RallyPoint Member, the civilian world will also have you take on additional responsibility before any pay increase.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2021 6:26 PM

2021-03-16T18:26:52-04:00

Take that lateral promotion as a compliment. Someone sees in you the ability to be a leader when you aren’t yet able to be promoted to SGT. Are you going to have more responsibility than you would rocking the sham shield for the same pay? Yep. Welcome to life. Doesn’t matter if you are in the military or in the private sector. People will always expect more from you than what is in your pay grade. Usually in the military it’s because someone sees potential in you as a leader. If I see a group of enlisted and it’s a bunch of specialists and a corporal I am going to assume that corporal is a cut above those specialists.

Take the lateral promotion. Get the leadership experience and then promote when you can. I don’t think you’ll be any worse the wear for it. Turn it down and well I think the negative consequences will be more painful than missing an extra $100 a month and a little extra work.

Response by SSG Dale London made Mar 16 at 2021 7:00 PM

2021-03-16T19:00:40-04:00

I'm normally pretty chill with questions on this forum but attitudes like this really burn my butt. You don't want to take responsibility?!?! Then what the hell are you doing going to BLC or taking up a slot at ranger school?
A question like yours demonstrates unequivocally that you are not fit to lead -- at least not with your present attitude. Your first thought is about pay, not results. You focus is "me, me, me," not "mission first and always." I feel sorry for your soldiers because it doesn't look like you have much of the NCO creed in your heart.
Let me put you straight, Specialist. An NCO puts his soldiers first - ALWAYS. They're the first ones to get chow. They're the first ones to get a couple hours of sleep. They're the first ones in line for anything good.
It's your job as a leader to stand in the breach for them. It's your job to take the hit from the 1SG when one of your guys screws up because, guess what? You are responsible for your troops. If any of this sounds like something you don't want to do then you are NOT NCO material.
Being an NCO is not about pay. It's about being a key player in the team. But if you got $ in your eyes you are not looking out for your team -- you're too busy looking out for yourself. Sorry, but you are not the kind of guy I would want in my foxhole.
One thing, though: if this is how you feel you won't get many more stripes. You can bet your butt the soldiers you lead will figure you out quick. Their performance will be in the same place as your attitude: the toilet. A few crappy NCOER's (or whatever they call them nowadays) and you'll be a career E-6 at twenty facing your RCP.
If your thinking is what it looks like, you should get out and let someone who wants to be a leader do the work you're too special to do.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2021 7:04 PM

2021-03-16T19:04:36-04:00

Whether you make the Army your career or leave the military and go into civilian employment my strongest recommendation to you is to never, ever refuse a promotion. You may not think you can handle the responsibility of the position, but there are others - superiors and others that think you can. Accept the challenge and just do your best. The alternative is to disappoint your leaders, and maybe never get another promotion.

Response by SPC Luis Cedrez made Mar 16 at 2021 7:31 PM

2021-03-16T19:31:09-04:00

This is a legit question if you was working in corporate America, or just a regular job. As you already know, you have put your life on the line with this commitment. You are absolutely going the wrong way if you don't want to be a leader of men. Taking the board, what did you think would happen. Then going to BLC. RANGER SCHOOL is not for everyone. Special Forces usually are put in situations where they are leading soldiers or civilians, depending on your duty station. You should be honored to be assigned the rank of corporal. Leading men is not for everyone, but if you don't want to do it, don't go to BLC, don't go to Ranger School. Just coast and you can finish your career as an E-5 or 6 without much fuss if you have a standard MOS.

Response by SFC Kenneth Hunnell made Mar 16 at 2021 8:12 PM

2021-03-16T20:12:47-04:00

Have you lost your mind, so you equate the amount of leadership you have to the pay you recieve. Why are you going to Ranger School. When I joined the Army I didn't care about the rank or the money, I just cared about getting the job done, to simple.
Don't worry about the money, adorably apparently someone sees leadership in you. Don't throw that away

Response by Cpl Daiji Yoshimura made Mar 16 at 2021 8:27 PM

2021-03-16T20:27:23-04:00

In the Marines we were glad to earn the right to be considered an NCO. This carried over with me when I went Army. My CO pormoted me to Corporal due to exhibiting leadership qualities.

I can probably understand your hesitation to want to take charge especially since Corporals in the Army get far less respect. I get it! However, I would recommend you change your outlook. The military is a great way to advanced your self personally and only if you challenge yourself. Even if you are not a lifer, and you go civilian. Puting down Corporal on your resume is far better than Specialist. You will also learn how to take responsibility and definitely be ready for the next rank of Sergeant, it will be a breeze to transition. You sound like you are in a high speed unit, apply yourself and you never know where you may end it.

Enjoy it while it lasts, you will really miss the job and comraderie. Good luck Soldier!

Response by SFC James Cameron made Mar 16 at 2021 10:24 PM

2021-03-16T22:24:18-04:00

Brother, I would think long and hard about not wanting that hard stripe. The Army is a small world, and the Deuce makes it even smaller. If I ever had any Junior Leader that I was grooming into the NCO Corps tell me that they didn’t want the responsibility until they were getting the pay I’d immediately begin vesting my efforts in another candidate that was up to the burden of leadership and I’d let my peers know they weren’t quite ready for the next step. That’s not personal, it’s stewardship of the profession. An Effective Leader is constantly going to be tasked with duties and responsibilities beyond what rank they wear.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2021 10:33 PM

2021-03-16T22:33:30-04:00

Everyone has already gotten the point across. You realize by turning this down you're giving the middle finger to your CoC and there are consequences to that. You realize they don't have to send you to ranger school and turning this down will seriously destroy your chances of going because they will give it to someone else more interested in leading soldiers. We all had to do jobs above our pay grades, life sucks drive on. It's about the soldiers you lead, teach, and mentor not a paycheck

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Mar 16 at 2021 10:39 PM

2021-03-16T22:39:54-04:00

You don't want to be a leader unless you are an E5? That is the most ridiculous and selfish thing I have read. I was a Fire Team Leader as a LCpl and a Heavy Machine gunner Vehicle Commander as a Cpl. Not once did I imagine declining the position because of my paycheck. Either you want the job or you don't. You don't get to set terms. You need to look in the mirror and have a conversation with the guy looking at you and figure out your goals.

Response by SPC James Neidig made Mar 17 at 2021 1:01 AM

2021-03-17T01:01:47-04:00

If you pin CPL you will be an NCO I served as CPL in the USMC and a SPC in the ARMY and wished they would have made me a CPL and the extra responsibility that went with the RANK , CPL’S LEAD SPC follow

Response by SSG Brian G. made Mar 17 at 2021 2:46 AM

2021-03-17T02:46:54-04:00

You are looking at this all twisted. So they are going to lateral you to CPL. Ok. You do realize that this is a like a trial to see how you could/would be as an NCO and give you that training and experience before you actually pin on E-5.

You can deny the promotion but really it is not recommended as it looks bad on you, for just the reasons you stated. And if you think that you won't have to lead if you decline the promotion? Think again. You will learn that error of thought in both BLC and Ranger School.

Response by SP5 John Eskins made Mar 17 at 2021 4:44 AM

2021-03-17T04:44:55-04:00

It sounds to me like someone in your upper echelon wanted to find out if you had what it takes to become a leader and help you advance. Now if you turn it down, what do you think they are going to think about that? During my time I knew of only one guy that didn't want to be promoted, every time he came up he'd have it just along enough to get busted back down. He was a cook with 22 years in the service and made the best damn food in South Vietnam in '68-'69 and was still a private.

Response by SGT Chris Stephens made Mar 17 at 2021 7:51 AM

2021-03-17T07:51:33-04:00

Then just get out of the service once your contract is up. You need the service more than the service needs you. But, you better check yourself before going to Ranger School. That kind of attitude is not taken too kindly. And don't be surprised if word about this gets to your leadership, especially considering you've listed your unit on here. Somebody on RallyPoint know someone high up in your unit.

Response by SSG Eric Blue made Mar 17 at 2021 12:12 PM

2021-03-17T12:12:44-04:00

Good question. Because in my head, the question I'd be asking my team leader, squad leader, and/or platoon leader is "if you're ready for me to assume the NCO responsibilities, why can I not receive the pay to reflect that?"

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2021 12:39 PM

2021-03-17T12:39:30-04:00

You have received a number of comments already, positive and negative.
The bottom line is if you want to be promoted, accept any opportunity including lateral to Corporal for the leadership opportunity. This gives you a leg up on learning what an NCO does and what they don't do.

Response by LCpl Charles Stacker made Mar 17 at 2021 1:10 PM

2021-03-17T13:10:37-04:00

A little off topic but dang I wish I was you , promoted to Cpl and Ranger school , You joined the army son be all you can be . In your old age your time in the military will be the highlight don't leave nothing on the table .

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Mar 17 at 2021 1:47 PM

2021-03-17T13:47:15-04:00

WTF, SGT Private RallyPoint Member, if you’re that concerned about money vs position, just ETS. Somewhere there’s a private sector company that will be happy to exploit your labor for less than the prevailing wage. At least you’ll be free to quit any time you want.

Response by SFC James Corona made Mar 17 at 2021 4:01 PM

2021-03-17T16:01:26-04:00

You must be in Combat Arms since this Branch allows promonotion to Corporal. Don't turn it down as it will look good for future promotions.

Response by Cpl Billy Welsh made Mar 17 at 2021 5:28 PM

2021-03-17T17:28:09-04:00

Dude don’t be a turd! Take charge and carry out the plan of the day.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2021 9:29 PM

2021-03-17T21:29:05-04:00

Declining the opportunity to build yourself up is denying the fact that there are obviously people in your CoC that are making the effort to support you and build you up, and may just be the slap in the face that gets that effort and support reconsidered.

TLDR: Unf#ck yourself.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2021 2:07 AM

2021-03-18T02:07:53-04:00

Besides liking your last name I don't see you getting anymore pay for a lateral promotion, so take it but only if you feel that you can and lead soldiers with integrity.

Response by SGT Timothy Stuart made Mar 18 at 2021 4:31 PM

2021-03-18T16:31:18-04:00

SPC Josh Harrison, do yourself and the military a favor and decline the promotion, decline the promotable status, finish your contract, and get out.
Your “Why should I take the responsibility if I don’t get the pay?” attitude is part of what leads to the poor leadership that many complain about. Would you not lead the remainder of a convoy out of an ambush fire sack because you aren’t going to get paid the same as the OIC or NCOIC that got taken out? Or maybe not do your best to learn CLS skills because you’re not a medic? Many times, in both civilian and military life, you are going to learn that you have to do more than what you get paid to do.
Personally, I think the Army needs to follow the Marine Corps lead and abolish the SPC rank, period. Last “guaranteed” promotion is E-3. After that earn those stripes.

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made Mar 18 at 2021 9:19 PM

2021-03-18T21:19:28-04:00

The OP is being fast tracked, probably made Specialist with a waiver, and went to the board in his secondary zone - He is way ahead of his peers. If he succeeds as a first time go at Ranger School, and doesn't get peered out, he will likely make SFC by his 10 year mark. 1SG by 12, and either CSM or SGM by 15. This Soldier, with a Ranger Tab, will walk into the Staff Sergeant board, recite a paragraph, or line from the Ranger Creed, and walk out Promotable. This troop is being set up for success, and being rewarded and recognized, He has a coveted Ranger School slot, has already been to and passed RASP, will absolutely get Airborne school, and also any school of his choice in his MOS for further advancement. In return, he is being asked, as an E-4, to showcase his skills and abilities, which is exactly what a Specialist in the Infantry should be doing. I do not see the Army abusing this Soldier, I see the army putting a spotlight on him as a rising star.

The only thing that will halt this process is the Soldier himself, with his attitude. Trust me to know how my MOS works, and what is happening with this particular Soldier is by no means unfair treatment, nor leadership looking to exploit him. He is being rewarded in the highest form of praise the infantry can apply. He is going to lead a Combat Fire Team.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2021 12:32 PM

2021-03-20T12:32:13-04:00

So, you dont want to be an NCO, hmm, time for you to go home permanently. If your leaders saw potential in you and make you a corporal, then there are qualities they want to groom you for. But if your about the pay, and the pay comes with responsibilities, then your not NCO quality and recommend you not re-enlist. There are Soldiers out the that want that position and excel to be great leaders. If you do not want the corporal rank, go tell your CSM immediately.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2021 2:30 PM

2021-03-21T14:30:24-04:00

unless I'm mistaken or out of date the military pay chart shows E-4 no E-4 + or -, just E-4, money is the same, responsibility as a team leader can and often times does happen whether you are a Spec or corporal unit dependent, your refusal because of money is weak at best, and shows why your schools BLC and Ranger should be pulled, if your not willing to take responsibility above your pay grade get out period quit wasting the army's time.

Response by SP5 Christopher Brock made Mar 28 at 2021 11:55 PM

2021-03-28T23:55:17-04:00

When I was deployed to Afghanistan I was a SGT working as a Battle Captain, I didn’t complain or ask for money or a promotion I accepted it and did my job to the highest level and I did for 5 months, I also knew that everything I learned i could put in my Toolbox and use it when I needed, Soldier up and become a leader

Response by SPC Chet Jr. made Apr 8 at 2021 10:46 AM

2021-04-08T10:46:54-04:00

What's wrong with waiting? You spoiled kids want everything right now and have it your way. There are military protocols that have served members well for hundreds of years and you're upset because you want to be called sarge. Turn it down! You'll never make it past E5 and you can be called sarge until they RIF you. What are the recruiters doing these days?

Response by 1SG Rick Seekman made Apr 16 at 2021 9:28 PM

2021-04-16T21:28:24-04:00

Maybe ranger school will square your ass away??

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2021 6:08 PM

2021-04-29T18:08:53-04:00

What you CAN do is request to be slotted for the grade you serve while you are at the grade you are. This shows up on an ERB. It is used later down the line. You will wish you would have done this. It all comes out in the wash bud. Take the rank and do your job. Have your erb adjusted for the grade and time via slotting. I did it. It is a resume builder.

Response by SSG Rick Miller made May 4 at 2021 9:21 PM

2021-05-04T21:21:41-04:00

Go ahead, refuse the lateral to corporal. Then have the reputation for the rest of your time in that you won't step up. It will follow you everywhere you go. Take the frigging lateral, do the job, and take it as a compliment on your potential to become a LEADER. So what, you'd be an E4 team leader. Man, get over yourself, and stop being a whiny little bitch.

Response by CPL Mike Glasgow made May 7 at 2021 2:51 PM

2021-05-07T14:51:42-04:00

I was a Corporal in the 59th Ord Brigade. We worked on the HAWK missile system. I was a natural. I soaked up everything my SFC did. I was damn good at my job. even better than the SSG's. It was a dying MOS which I didn't know when I enlisted. It was being replaced by the Patriot. So when the SFC and SSG's got reassigned they gave me the stripes to carry on to the end. I was more than proud to wear them and more than proud to have been their choice. But to be honest the best reward is the respect I immediately was granted from my coworkers. They knew it was the right choice. I know that sounds kinda arrogant but I don't mean it that way. Don't turn down a promotion that will better your career. People know what those stripes mean. That you got them for a reason. Above you're peers. Not just because a slot came open and you had the points. At least that's the way I see it. Take the stripes, pony up and take on the responsibility. The way you asked the question leads me to believe you couldn't handle being a leader so give the stripes to someone who can and will be honored to wear them as I was. I don't know you and apologize I hurt your feelings. All the best

Response by MSG John Harrison made May 9 at 2021 10:18 PM

2021-05-09T22:18:15-04:00

That does not sound like any Ranger I have known.

Response by MSG Frederick Otero made May 12 at 2021 2:56 PM

2021-05-12T14:56:09-04:00

Yes but prepare for flack, In the United States Army it is up or out. If your not confident in your leadership skills go to BLC if you still do not think or do not want a leadership position then you might think about another line of work. Good luck which ever way you go and thanks for your service.

Response by SPC Chris Ison made May 13 at 2021 8:23 PM

2021-05-13T20:23:07-04:00

You can, but you will be telling your chain of command "I am only in this for myself".

It is not a good image to have, especially within the regiment.

Instead you shoudl, happily, accept the promotion, and use it as an opportunity to learn how to be a better sergeant.

Response by SPC Tarrence Molendyk made May 15 at 2021 1:11 PM

2021-05-15T13:11:44-04:00

Based on your speech about wanting the money I can tell what kind of an NCO you will be. I feel sorry for the soldiers who will be under your leadership. Just remember this there are two types of NCOs. Sergeants who have the rank and get the money. Non Commisioned Officers who teach the soldiers and work with them to perfect their training. you choose who you want to be. NCOs are long remembered Sergeants are not. so if you just want the money then you will be a Sergeant.

Response by SSG Omar Ruiz-Canales made May 16 at 2021 4:39 PM

2021-05-16T16:39:19-04:00

so what you're saying is that you don't care for the personal satisfaction of being a mentor and leader to younger soldiers until you see a pay increase?? At any rank you should be able to show everyone that you have what it takes to become the best the military can put out, and still be able to help out those same rank peers that you feel need a little push, but if you are in the military only for yourself, then why would anyone need you in the battlefield??

Response by GySgt Charles O'Connell made May 29 at 2021 8:50 AM

2021-05-29T08:50:15-04:00

Sure, go ahead and make the request, though I don’t think labelling yourself a dumbass is a smart move. You were selected for promotion based on your current and potential ability, highlighting to your command that your ability to lead is based on how much you’re paid.... well, like I said not a smart career move.

Response by SSG Ray Elliott made May 29 at 2021 9:57 PM

2021-05-29T21:57:37-04:00

If you take the leadership role now, it will help you on promotions in the future. Take the responsibility and prove your worth, while requesting to go to BLC ASAP!! Who knows by taking the extra responsibility it could lead to a letter of commendation or other award that will look good in your file for future promotions.

Response by SSG Jimmy Cernich made May 30 at 2021 12:32 PM

2021-05-30T12:32:53-04:00

Just take it,in my day it showed they want you to be a leader now.

Response by CPL Eric Bedford made Jun 8 at 2021 9:33 AM

2021-06-08T09:33:34-04:00

You do realize the the Army is the only military branch which a specialist rank. All the others E4 is a junior NCO rank. When I was in the Army I served in SSG position as a Specialist. The cutoff scores for my MOS was Maxed out for years. When I got my hard stripes (Corporal) it made a world of difference in my work. If you’ve been to the board and were recommended for promotion you should embrace those hard stripes. It is a great opportunity to further your development as a leader.

Response by Maj Bruce Pawlak made Jun 15 at 2021 9:15 AM

2021-06-15T09:15:54-04:00

Here's the bottom line. Do you want to make SGT? How about SSG? Etc...

The key factor in getting noticed as a leader and promoted on the fast track is to accept responsibility above your pay grade. Of course there are other variables at play... but the easiest way for your leaders to see who's ready, willing and able for those SGT stripes is to seize the objective, take on extra responsibility, and do the best you can.

Or... you can sit back and cruise and be the longest time in grade SPC in your unit.

Waaaay back when I was a Specialist I had 11 months time in grade and 27 months time in service when I was offered 'Acting' Sergeant stripes... no extra pay... just the responsibility... I took it... cheerfully. I also sewed on my real Sergeant stripes with the accompanying paycheck two days prior to my 36 month mark (for my MOS a promotion that early was very rare).

Would I have made it that quick if I had politely declined the acting stripes? Maybe... maybe not. My only evidence is that I was promoted waaaaay ahead of my peers.

So now we are back to today's reality? How bad do you want those SGT stripes? What are you willing to do to honorably bump someone else out of your way? This decision is yours to make...

Response by CPT William Jones made Jun 24 at 2021 8:58 AM

2021-06-24T08:58:30-04:00

The pay is the same for all E-4s

Response by CPT William Jones made Jun 24 at 2021 8:59 AM

2021-06-24T08:59:09-04:00

The pay is the same for all E4s

Response by PV2 Glen Lewis made Jun 24 at 2021 3:11 PM

2021-06-24T15:11:23-04:00

You ought to spend the rest of your enlistment as a Pfc since you don't want to take on a leadership role until you get more pay to do it.

Response by SFC Clifford Brewer made Jun 25 at 2021 11:00 AM

2021-06-25T11:00:05-04:00

I am assuming you are for real..you should ask yourself what was the real reason you join the military. Since you have been long enough to get recommended for the board and you study and pass the board a lot of soldiers would love to be in your shoes to express their abilities to lead and you wimping out because of pay..when I made it through basic to AIT I got promoted to E4 I didn’t really care about the money it was having my own squad to lead and i felted proud to learn with guidance from my Platoon leader..16 years later I got promoted to E7 in those years I got paid with pride to continue on supervision and leading other looked up to me because I did the best job I knew how and learn from my mistakes sure there was time I got in some sticky situation scared as hell for example I was at our Battalion on Staff duty and a soldier lost his life in a car accident and alone with his wife pregnant also in the did not get hurt..the unit did not call the Battalion and report the accident but let me tell all hell broke and the Bn CMDR and CSM walked in my duty officer and I was ready to leave when our replacement came wrong answer long story short I overcame that stress I say to you get up and accept your responsible that required of you and do your job or get out so the next soldier get take the range be a leader..I didn’t like a wimp when I was serving and now I am out I still do not like a wimp today

Response by SSG Brian Carpenter made Jun 25 at 2021 11:29 AM

2021-06-25T11:29:09-04:00

ETS NOW...if you don't want to be a NCO why did you board? I was a CPL for 7 years before I got my 5 I made 6 2 years later but I served in several leadership positions including Motor Seargant and Squad leader. Taking positions of greater responsibility is what being a leader is all about. If you were at war and had to take someone's place could you handle it? You don't have the will to lead why are you even in?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 27 at 2021 10:30 PM

2021-06-27T22:30:11-04:00

Hero - I can understand that you want to be compensated for the duties and responsibilities the Command wants to give you. Who knows, you may not go to BLC within the next 9-12 months after you accept the slot. But think of this. As some in the response have mentioned at - do you want to be a leader or a manager? A manager of people would want more money and more responsibilities while managing the tasks that people do… nothing wrong with that. - OR - Do you you want to be a leader of men and women that will follow your examples? Do you want to tell people what to do - or - do you want to ask people to join you to do the miserable and terrible jobs and show that even stripes clean trash bins? Do you only want the tabs and the awards to shine your light - or - do you want to sit at the front of the formation one day while your Soldiers (newest E1 to the oldest E7) get recognized for their hard work, resourcefulness and lateral thinking while you salute your O5 and think: “I remember teaching that turd how to ________ 15 years ago?”

Whatever kind of person you want to be - it will be a direct reflection on the civilian side too. Will people want to work with you to find the best route to finish the job - or will they resent it when you speak for you THINK you only know the answer to the problem, but you haven’t even grasp the 2nd & 3rd order of effects of the decision.

Response by LTC Stephen Franke made Jul 5 at 2021 6:10 PM

2021-07-05T18:10:31-04:00

Pleasantly surprised to learn from this thread that our Army has kept that important and significant rank of CPL, versus fixating only on SPC. The rank of CPL is recognition and appreciation that the proposed recipient has been seen and valued as a future leader of other Soldiers. Go with that CPL promotion and drive on and move forward!

Regards,
Stephen H Franke
LTC, US Army Retired
(with prior service as an enlisted Soldier)
San Pedro, California

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 11 at 2021 8:13 PM

2021-07-11T20:13:17-04:00

If you refuse the promotion you should immediately be removed from the promotion list! I served in a WO2 position as an E3 my Comsec account holder an E6 in a WO2 position was emergency PCSED back to the states, another E6 was brought in from one of the Battalions the next day he turned a price of secure equipment to a German national repair facility keyed for the day and a 1 month code book inside upon his arrival at the unit the MP'S were waiting for him he was arrested . At that point I was put into the position where I was on the Brigade Staff and having to report to the Corp Commander every week due to being in the WO2 position. Deal with the situation or get out of the military

Response by TSgt Don Dollinger made Jul 15 at 2021 10:45 AM

2021-07-15T10:45:31-04:00

Please do turn it down, we don't need soldiers like you in leadership positions of any type.

Response by MAJ Mike Middleton made Jul 15 at 2021 4:53 PM

2021-07-15T16:53:37-04:00

While I could tell you about my CPL stories, I will instead answer your question: Yes you can but you'll suffer the consequences. If someone has seen the potential in you to be a NCO and you say 'no' for whatever reason - to be honest; when given the opportunity to lead and you don't take it: makes you look like a shitty leader.

Response by PO1 Kevin Dougherty made Jul 25 at 2021 11:20 PM

2021-07-25T23:20:47-04:00

Damn, if I had a buck for every job I did, both military and civilian over and above what I was paid for I would be rich. Suck it up buttercup.

Response by 1SG Brett Austin made Jul 26 at 2021 1:36 AM

2021-07-26T01:36:12-04:00

If you were looking at this and every opportunity with open eyes, denial is something you just don’t do. It’s a FREE learning opportunity and the opportunity to show everyone you are right for the job. As others have said, your focus is all about you…not your troops. Your troops should eat, sleep, get paid, do many before you…you should be their backbone.

Response by CPO Kurt Baschab made Jul 26 at 2021 9:33 PM

2021-07-26T21:33:57-04:00

You Got to be Kidding me, Right? Please tell me this is a joke, When I was on active duty, I took every Opportunity to Advance, I took Jobs and Positions at the Next Higher Pay grade that no one else wanted, even though I didn't get paid for that position, it shows your a team Player and Motivated to move up to the next Pay Grade, your are not only willing to learn the next higher position, but are willing to take a hands on OJT, Learning Experience, and your not afraid to Network out to your Fellow NCO for Advice on How to do the Paperwork, and the Job as a Junior or Senior NCO .
every single person at your command should know how to do the Pay grade above and below them , how to take Charge and lead , because when in a real life situation your life and the life of your shipmates, and fellow solders may depend on it.
I Agree With WO1 Jeff C, , if this is not a joke, you are not ready to Lead or take charge of anyone , you may be outstanding at your Job, but you are not ready to be a leader, I do not know how it works in the Army,

I know In the United states Coast Guard they will send you to your next duty station early, they will advance you to the next pay grade without the pay, so when you arrive everyone knows you as that pay grade, then as soon as they can, they CG Will make it Official with Pay, BUT YOU CAN REFUSE IF YOU SO CHOOSE, just REMEMBER IF YOU Refuse your Promotion, to advance to the Next Pay Grade, it does not matter why, you refused, you will not be allowed to compete for advancement for the next two years.
in Reality it Could be 2 1/2 to 3 years before you are allowed to advance again.
this is your choice . stay at your current pay Guard, for two more years, and have it in your PDR that you refused advancement. this is a Choice, or just take the Advancement with a smile, do the JOB LIKE YOU WERE BORN TO IT !

Response by SSG Russell Busicchia made Jul 28 at 2021 11:24 AM

2021-07-28T11:24:30-04:00

Yes, you can refuse it. But, it will destroy your unit's confidence in you and haunt you down the road. I've worked in all sorts of positions, mostly is positions over my pay grade. It is an honor when the command has enough confidence in you to give you the position.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2021 2:16 PM

2021-07-30T14:16:46-04:00

Soooo from what I have heard, no. This is supposed to be happening to ALL specialists and I don't think there is a choice as its army-wide. I don't agree with it, but it is what it is.

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Aug 1 at 2021 3:42 PM

2021-08-01T15:42:16-04:00

Yes, don't look for any favors.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2021 8:36 PM

2021-08-05T20:36:01-04:00

Yes. Now is a good time to decide what you want in life. Know your worth.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 6 at 2021 12:31 PM

2021-08-06T12:31:46-04:00

I moved from SPC to CPL, then promoted to SP5 with a lateral to SGT. The Army is considering the option of requiring everyone to serve as a CPL before making SGT. Which I believe is a good option. You get to lead through influence and experience leadership responsibility.

However, to your point, if you have no desire to be a CPL, then you should also request to not attend Ranger School. Both are opportunities to gain leadership skills. If you have no desire to learn leadership skills as a CPL, then sending you to Ranger school is a waste of time and money. Passing the board was the easy part, performing as a leader is the real test. By considering the option of denying promotion to CPL, you are self-identifying as someone, who should not lead, set the example or assume the risk inherent in leadership. Maybe you are an excellent SPC and that is all you will be. If that is the case, continue to be an excellent SPC and leave the leadership stuff to others.

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2021 4:27 PM

2021-08-08T16:27:19-04:00

I hear you man. If I were still in they would have tried to get me with that CPL "promotion" too.
It was already bad enough that I was required to do everything the NCOs were required to do as a SPC(P) and yet got treated like a PVT when it came to anything else.
The only thing that stopped additional crap piled on us was duties that required an actual NCO.
Corporal is the worst rank in the Army. Change my mind.

Response by Cpl William Tanguay made Aug 22 at 2021 12:48 PM

2021-08-22T12:48:10-04:00

If I were you I would take the promotion to Cpl and show that you are capable to being a leader which would help you in future promotions.

Response by SSG Bill McCoy made Aug 22 at 2021 1:06 PM

2021-08-22T13:06:00-04:00

When I was in, Corporals were RARE, especially in the MP Corps. I only saw a few and they were all Infantry type units. THEN, since Corporals were rare, they were looked upon with some awe and a bit more respect than a mere SP4 (what today is just SPC). I don't know if that's as much the case today but it doesn't matter.
If you (can) decline the promotion, you'd really be shooting youerself in the foot, so to say. If they want to make you a Corporal, it's because they want to give you more responsibility, AND probably think you can handle it. Slapping "whoever" in the face to decline it, wouldn't be much more harmful to your career. In otherwords, TAKE IT.

Response by SPC Jeffrey Frusha made Aug 22 at 2021 4:05 PM

2021-08-22T16:05:10-04:00

I know a medically retired Army SSG that made numerous ranks up and down (never below CPL) that has had BDE level positions, without additional pay at any number of those ranks. Yes, they were in combat most of those times.

Rather than quibble and avoid/deflect responsibility, you MIGHT ask your platoon SGT and/or the S-1 clerk if you have been scheduled for BLC. If there's, say 6 months wait, it will help you to step up, if the wait is a couple of years (I've seen it happen, even in the Cold War), refusing the slot can end your chance at a career.

"You pays your money and you takes your choice."

You made the board. From here, what happens is on you. Look at what can happen in 15-16 years...
Retirement? Flipping burgers for low wages? Choose wisely.

When I was in, the Army was top-heavy in NCOs with no slots to move up. I got selected for the board and disqualified on a technicality, when they were disqualifying for even smaller gigs. being in S-1 at the time, my CSM broke it to me and gave me the opportunity to address the board, so, I chewed them out, signed my ETS papers in front of them and instantly had less than 90 days left, given accumulated leave.

Me? I'm permanently disabled, receiving 100% Disability for Individual Unemployability. That means, if I could find work, earn some additional income, anything over 10% of my disability can jeopardize my rating, my income and health benefits. Sucks eating the low fruit, but I've got a Quarter-million Dollar (civilian cost) smile, getting high-dollar therapy for my Service-Connected PTSD, frequent physical therapy for medical issues (result of in-service injuries) and who knows what all else... I've even had genetic testing for hidden syndromes (yes, through the VA).

Ball is in your court. Your entire future relies on what you do NOW. Crap, or get off the pot Specialist.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Aug 22 at 2021 6:16 PM

2021-08-22T18:16:43-04:00

SPC Josh Harrison 2-263 ADA, 263rd AAMDC, USARNORTH
"Can I decline being promoted to Corporal?"
" I dont want to take responsibility as a team leader and still get paid as a SPC."
I wonder what your DIV BDE, BN, Co commanders, Senior NCOs, and RTB cadre would think about those statements?

Response by SFC Craig Titzkowski made Aug 22 at 2021 9:03 PM

2021-08-22T21:03:25-04:00

yes you can I did I said if I was going to be an NCO your going to pay me. I went from E-4 SPC to SFC in 4 short years. I saw the guy that was my team leader take a corporal position and he was in the same position when I made SFC. I believe that is a war time rank to make you an NCO while waiting on your promotion not someone you can put in charge of mopping the floors and have him scrub the toilets as needed. Be an NCO or not lateral promotions are BS

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Aug 23 at 2021 9:19 AM

2021-08-23T09:19:13-04:00

This appears to be something new. soldiers do not want to be NCOs. This appears to be a crimp in the system. Why would soldiers be intimidated by authority. Commanders need to address this

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Aug 23 at 2021 10:38 AM

2021-08-23T10:38:04-04:00

Promoting you to CPL before your BLC is just giving you a chance to learn on the Job. Now with that said you have the option to decline that "Promotion" However doing so could leave you in a position where your BLC dates may be a long way off due to people that want to move to the next level will be selected first. Turning down CPL could have the appearance of lack of desire to become a leader. JMTC

Response by Cpl George Matousek made Aug 23 at 2021 11:08 AM

2021-08-23T11:08:36-04:00

I don't see why you cannot turn down the promotion. I turned down a promotion to SGt. because I was getting out in a couple of weeks, and did want to go through all the work for the promotion and getting the strips sworn on (expensive).

Response by Cpl George Matousek made Aug 23 at 2021 11:09 AM

2021-08-23T11:09:22-04:00

sorry left out the word not, between did and want

Response by SGT Robert Wager made Aug 23 at 2021 11:16 AM

2021-08-23T11:16:43-04:00

There is stupid and then there is stupid on an epic level. Congratulations, you made epic level.

Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made Aug 23 at 2021 1:47 PM

2021-08-23T13:47:48-04:00

Short answer: You can.
Longer answer: I urge you to not do this. Strongly! This will feel like a slap in the face of people who are saying that they believe in you. Don't look at this as a burden. Look at this as an opportunity to learn, and gain some valuable experience. Yes, your unit might be trying to get some NCO work out of you without having to give you NCO pay. Let that establish your own standards. Eventually, you will be in a position to influence whether a unit expects people to work without the benefit of the pay, and you will be able to tell them all about it, from your own experience. To get there, you will need to have this experience. Learn. Advance. Lead.

Response by Maj Rob Drury made Aug 24 at 2021 10:05 AM

2021-08-24T10:05:06-04:00

Pathetic. You're in for the wrong reason.

Response by SSG Jimmy Roy Walling made Aug 27 at 2021 10:03 PM

2021-08-27T22:03:48-04:00

So this begs the question at hand... What about a SFC that has been frocked to 1SG holding that spot as due to needs of the army and what not... That is a position of pride without pay.
A Corporal in the U.S. Army is an odd duck at best... It shows faith of leadership by leadership so but at the same time it is hard to not get pigeon-holed in a rut if promotion points are high but given the MOS is 11B that is doubtful...
Take the ball and run with it be the standard, be the hero, be the guy that private looks up to and wants to be, most of all do it for yourself to learn the hard lessons now and not down the road.
I look back on my time as a Corporal fondly.
I think it made me a better NCO in the long run.
Charge hard and Charge ahead, lead from the front at all times.

Response by SSG John Lasseigne made Aug 29 at 2021 7:23 PM

2021-08-29T19:23:24-04:00

I say go to your CSM and Bn Co and tell them about how you feel. I am sure they will take care of you appropriately.

Response by Sgt Bob Lamb made Aug 30 at 2021 7:59 PM

2021-08-30T19:59:30-04:00

An old song "You'll never get rich / by digging a ditch / you're in the Army now!"
Take the promotion

Response by CMSgt George Milliorn made Sep 4 at 2021 6:25 PM

2021-09-04T18:25:05-04:00

If you worked for me you would remain a SPC until discharge or retirement.

Response by CPL Thomas Ruyle made Sep 17 at 2021 6:40 PM

2021-09-17T18:40:27-04:00

This is where you learn and practice leadership. If you don’t want that, you need to get your 214 instead.

Response by LTC Richard Wasserman made Sep 22 at 2021 7:00 PM

2021-09-22T19:00:54-04:00

Not a good idea--bit the bullet, accept and move forward.

Response by SFC Jeffrey Port made Oct 27 at 2021 8:54 PM

2021-10-27T20:54:57-04:00

Wondering WHY you prepared and bothered to go in front of promotion board and do not want to take responsibility for the rank promotion, yet apparently going Ranger school??? You should have informed your COC that you feel you are not ready for promotion to the next rank at this time prior to appearing before the board. Same with Ranger school, if your not ready for responsibility of SGT rank, you should absolutely not go to Ranger school at all at this time. If you are not able to fill this position, let someone else have it finish up your term with honorable discharge, hit the civilian work force, they are hiring everywhere!

Response by 1SG Jason Almond made Oct 28 at 2021 12:26 PM

2021-10-28T12:26:01-04:00

Lots of good comments, mostly covering the “I was x rank doing a higher ranks job.” Wonderful.

What also happens is the exact opposite- especially if you hit E7 or 8. They won’t reduce you because there isn’t a slot for you. I spent time in a OOG position waiting on a 1SG position to open. I was doing staff work that basically required the clerical abilities of an E3. It happens. Easiest money I ever made. But of course- I had times where I was doing much more than my pay grade called for. Service, professionalism, warrior ethos and teamwork…..think about that.

But as I’m sure it’s been said…… if you are complaining about money vs responsibility, and you haven’t really even been put in a leadership position yet, somethings not in the right place……and that may be you in the military. It’s not for everyone. And that’s ok.

Response by PO2 John Schneider made Oct 28 at 2021 1:54 PM

2021-10-28T13:54:33-04:00

Then get out of the Military if you don't want to take on more responsibility. I am sure Walmart is hiring in your home town.

Response by PO2 John Schneider made Oct 28 at 2021 1:56 PM

2021-10-28T13:56:16-04:00

Time to take on more responsivity young man. If not get out of the Military. I am sure Walmart and McDonalds is hiring in your hometown.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2021 2:17 PM

2021-10-28T14:17:19-04:00

You can always ask. There are always consequences for what we do and what we don't do. Be careful for what you wish for ... if they grant your request ... there will consequences [i.e. it may be a long time before (if ever) you become a Sergeant (E-5). Conversely, if your request is denied, you'll have additional responsibilities of a NCO and opportunity to demonstrate your leadership (or lack of) abilities. You're an adult and you'll figure out the 'best' COA for your life. I wish you the best.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2021 2:21 PM

2021-10-28T14:21:37-04:00

You can always make the request. There are consequences for everything we do or fail to do. If they grant your request [it could be a long time (if ever) before you become a Sergeant (E-5). If they deny your request, you'll have an opportunity to demonstrate your leadership abilities (or lack of). You're an adult and will choose the 'best' COA for your life and future. I wish you the best.

Response by SSG John Craemer made Oct 28 at 2021 4:00 PM

2021-10-28T16:00:07-04:00

It would bite you in the a$$. Take your promotion go to the schools it will help you out in the end

Response by SPC Lee Birch made Oct 28 at 2021 5:14 PM

2021-10-28T17:14:51-04:00

WTF SPC? You think you're working at the local grocery store?

Response by CPO Michael Hatten made Oct 28 at 2021 6:54 PM

2021-10-28T18:54:26-04:00

I remember guys who were junior enlisted and didn't want to get promoted. They didn't want to take on the challenge of being an E-4. They did not qualify for reenlistment on the next cycle.

I turned down a promotion to Chief Petty Officer during my last submarine patrol. I would have taken it, gone through initiation, and bought all the new uniforms required but I was not willing to extend my enlistment by three years. My plan was to leave active duty and I stuck to it.

Lucky for me, I found a Naval Reserve unit that had a CPO slot open and I was promoted by the USNR. I took the promotion gladly.

Response by SGT Sam Decker made Oct 28 at 2021 7:45 PM

2021-10-28T19:45:23-04:00

Wow. Ok, my guy, two things:
1. SPC and CPL are both E-4 and both get paid the same. So you wouldn't be making more money anyway.
2. NCO's are Leaders. Not paychecks. There's a long-standing method in the Army that EVERY rank should be studying and be able to step into the shoes of those a rank above, should the need arise. To back off of responsibility solely because your not getting paid for it is disgusting. You think that SFC standing in while the 1SG is on leave is going to say "no" be they aren't drawing E-8 pay? Not a chance in hell.

You need to take a long, hard look at your priorities and brought you to this point. But right now, based off of this question, I'd say you're not ready to lead Soldiers or be an NCO.

Response by MAJ Gerald Richards made Oct 28 at 2021 10:55 PM

2021-10-28T22:55:28-04:00

You can decline promotion, but if I were in your command chain, this would be the last you would have the opportunity to make that choice under my command. If you wish to make the Army a career then you need to take whatever assignments. are offered. You're qualified to become a Corporal, an important NCO position that starts you on the road to one of the most important leadership roles in the Army, Master Sergeant and above. Suck it up.

Response by SPC Tessa Knopf made Oct 28 at 2021 11:02 PM

2021-10-28T23:02:21-04:00

I also passed the board had that responsibility of CPL without the raise and pay. It's literally offers NO value to the receiver of said title.

Response by CPL John C. Lynch made Oct 29 at 2021 6:47 AM

2021-10-29T06:47:41-04:00

1st off-let me say--I was extremely PROUD to earn my Corporal Stripes. It wasn't given often in my unit (4 years there was only one other) and it was a sign that the Command respected me and my Leadership and was giving me that recognition.
2nd--Anyone else notice that Trooper Harrison lists his rank as SGT already?

BTW--Great Break on the Beret. Legs never seem to get that crease right.--13F 1/320 & 1/325 AATW!!!

Response by SFC Michael Krasowski made Oct 29 at 2021 9:19 AM

2021-10-29T09:19:16-04:00

Let me just say this, as a retired SFC, CPL was the best rank I obtained going through the ranks, no question about it. You must have the drive, respect and leadership abilities, Corporal is a privilege, if you don't embrace it, you should probably not be an NCO in the first place.

Response by CPO Donald Crisp made Nov 1 at 2021 12:23 PM

2021-11-01T12:23:27-04:00

To echo a few comments, you will likely be called upon to fill rolls both above AND below your pay grade. To refuse advancement is beyond me. If you are in the military (in any service) for money, I'd take a long hard look at why you are in.

Response by SSG Gerald King made Nov 19 at 2021 7:55 PM

2021-11-19T19:55:43-05:00

3 months after I was promoted to SSG, I was reassigned as the NCOIC of a 25 man detachment. This was an E-7 slot. I replaced an E-7 and was later replaced by an E-7. I never received E-7 pay, but I was given the opportunity to show that I was capable of doing the job at a higher level. It is not uncommon for Commanders for put a soldier in a position of higher authority before promoting them to see if they are up to the task. The opportunity to prove myself resulted in a later assignment, still as a SSG, of greater responsibility and I was awarded the MSM for my efforts.

Response by CPO Arthur Weinberger made Nov 29 at 2021 9:27 AM

2021-11-29T09:27:14-05:00

Don't take the promotion! Show your supervisors you are not a leader and should not have been recommended for a promotion. It is an honor to have earned another stripe.

Response by SGT Alan Simmons made Dec 2 at 2021 2:40 PM

2021-12-02T14:40:11-05:00

It is an honor to be laterally appointed from a Specialist to a Corporal. There's something about your leadership skills and potential that other NCOs and officers in your unit have noticed about you.

When I was in the Army, promotion points were high, and I spent a year as a corporal at 998 before I was promoted. But I held positions of leadership that were slotted for both E5s and E6s without complaint and did them to the best of my ability because the chain of command believed in me. When the promotion lists came out, and I finally got my sergeant stripes, I am not sure who was more excited - myself or the chain of command! The day my sergeant stripes were pinned on me, my CSM handed me an E6 promotion board study packet he had put together and told me to "start studying."

Do what you want; at times, there are more important things than pay.

Response by PO1 Michael Turnbeaugh made Dec 3 at 2021 1:11 PM

2021-12-03T13:11:41-05:00

I don't understand why you would pass up the extra responsibility. That is the way that you end up getting promoted before your peers. That's also the way that the military, and many corporations, work. First you do the job, then you get the promotion. I can't even imagine what would have happened if I had turned down the O-1 billet offered to me when I was an E-6. I took that and ran with it because I could see the promotion opportunities that this would afford me. But, then, I came from submarines where people step up to take on responsibilities well above their paygrade anytime they possibly can.

Response by TSgt Tommy Amparano made Dec 3 at 2021 5:22 PM

2021-12-03T17:22:27-05:00

The rank is the reward. Just frock it until it you meet the rest of the requirement. You know how they say dress for the job you want not the job you have. Also, you will have more time in rank which may beneficial down the road.

Response by CPO Kurt Baschab made Dec 5 at 2021 10:34 AM

2021-12-05T10:34:45-05:00

I Know In The USCG You Can Decline Your Promotion, Yet, By Denying Your Advancement to the Next Pay Grade , You Will Be Ineligible for Advancement for at Least 3 Years. I do not Recommend this course of action.
I Have Taken Many Jobs that were one pay grade higher than my Rank, I did not complain when I Received My Orders, I just accepted my Orders Them.

Remember it is your job to Teach Leadership, by example, to teach Every Military Member How to do there Job, How to be a better Corporal than you were a better SSG, a better leader, than you are today, to make your service better than it was when you Join. so you know you have left your Friends in Good Hands when you decide to get out, or retire.

Remember you are Training Your Replacements, this why it is so important to have high standards and Pride in service and Military Uniform Appearance, it Goes Back to the Old Adage Aim Small Miss Small, or you can Use the Law Enforcement Adage of the Broken windows Theory.

This goes back to where some of your Senior Leadership Personal are saying they would Pull there Recommendation for your Advancement, if they were sitting on your Board, you are Most Likely asking Why?
the answer is simple, By The Question You Asked It shows You are not ready, you are to Immature.

a more Secure Man, a More Mature Leader would have Jumped all over this advancement without Question . so to Answer your Question, By Asking This Question You are Most Likely Not Ready for Advancement up to Corporal.

Response by SFC William Linnell made Dec 5 at 2021 12:50 PM

2021-12-05T12:50:24-05:00

Let's break this down a bit. You went to and passed the E-5/SGT promotion board. Congratulations young man. Big hurdle right there in starting your career. Since you are a CPL, how is it that you sign your name in with a profile SGT Josh H? Looking at the date on this post I am guessing that you got promoted to SGT. Next question is WHY it just showed up in my notices?

Never pass up extra anything to make you a step above your peers. Go to the NCO of the Month Boards. BDE, Post. Win a few of those and find an NCO who is an Audie Murphy member and pick their brain. Tell your PSG, 1SG you want to go to that board and ask for help for study material. Then go. IF you don't succeed the 1st time, go again. Ask for jump school. Air Assault school. Become what we call HIGH SPPEED. Know your job and the next position up. You are the trainer.

Suck it up buttercup, NCO's jobs aren't a check the block to do list with a criteria for extra pay incentives. Get your head out of that mode of thinking. None of us have gotten "extra" pay for the extra responsibilities we took on. It's a learning tool. IF you can't handle that, then your wasting tax payers money and your NCOs and Soldiers time.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2021 4:46 PM

2021-12-05T16:46:55-05:00

You can, but why in the hell would you want to? Becoming a good NCO takes time and practice. I wish like hell I’d had the opportunity to become a Corporal, but that was not to be so. The best practice is to take those Corporal stripes and do the job. On a side note, if you think the job is about money, you are in the wrong profession. If you refuse the stripes, you can hang up making Sergeant for a long time. Plus, if I was your CSM, I probably would cancel all of your school dates.

Response by LCpl Tim George made Dec 5 at 2021 6:40 PM

2021-12-05T18:40:03-05:00

I was a l/cpl non-promotable in a Ssgt billet. You do the job you're assigned. If you are already selected and put in the billet it sounds like someone thinks highly of you. Or bail, and turning down a promotion is a career ender.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2021 4:04 PM

2021-12-06T16:04:38-05:00

SGT Private RallyPoint Member ... the Army is looking to add more Corporals to its ranks. It is making promotion to Corporal mandatory: https://www.armytimes.com/2021/06/07/all-soldiers-must-now-serve-as-corporals-before-promotion-to-sergeant/

All soldiers must now serve as corporals before promotion to sergeant

In a new change to promotions, junior enlisted soldiers will now need corporal time before they can become sergeants.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2021 4:14 PM

2021-12-06T16:14:41-05:00

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/07/01/all-soldiers-now-must-serve-corporals-promotion-sergeant.html

All Soldiers Now Must Serve As Corporals Before Promotion to Sergeant

Current corporals will need to qualify for promotion and complete BLC or else they will be reassigned as specialists.

Response by CW2 Geoff Lachance made Dec 6 at 2021 4:39 PM

2021-12-06T16:39:34-05:00

That would not be a wise move. Your leaders see potential in you or they would have passed you by.

Response by SSG Andres Guarnizo made Dec 7 at 2021 2:56 PM

2021-12-07T14:56:26-05:00

Just came across this post, looks like you got your promotion to SGT, so congrats! Just know SGT Harrison this kind of mindset may prevent you from further growth in the military and definitely in the civilian world. Sometimes when you come across this opportunity or situation, just look at as an investment into yourself and those that you will lead in the future. In the military I recall being a PFC and doing the job of a SGT and SSG and in the civilian world this pattern only continues, but this sets you apart from those that just clock in and clock out. Is this bad, only if there is no positive outcome, but 9 times out of 10, this will only help you in the long run. Congrats again!

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2021 8:40 AM

2021-12-09T08:40:06-05:00

I actually side with this guy, whoever he is. The military is constantly trying to squeeze as much as they can out of individuals so we always get the worse end of the deal. What do we get for our hard work and sacrifices, including sacrificing family time, pay, and vacations? A pension after 20 years and VA benefits that you have to fight tooth and nail for after you get out? No, it's time that the military stop trying to take advantage of it's people otherwise there will be retention issues as we have seen over the past few years.

Response by SGT John Prolo made Dec 15 at 2021 3:59 PM

2021-12-15T15:59:12-05:00

You're a joke!

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made Dec 19 at 2021 5:26 PM

2021-12-19T17:26:47-05:00

You'd be a great big fool for turning down a promotion. You showed the higher-ups that you have the mental ability to be promoted, which means you can be a leader or men & women. You just want the pay as a SPC!? Why do that? You want to be a follower for the rest of your ARMY career? You think very little of yourself that way. Be an adult, a leader makes good and bad decisions all the time. If you feel you can't do either, your career is on the down and out for sure.

Response by MSG Richard Medina made Dec 19 at 2021 7:53 PM

2021-12-19T19:53:59-05:00

Why would you ask a question like that when you are using SGT as you rank? Are you being demoted from SGT to CPL? Or are you an acting jack SGT as a true SPC? If you are actually a SPC being laterally promoted to CPL. Then yes you could possibly decline your promotion to CPL. But you'll have to explain to your command for your refusal. Since you may or may not be a team ldr using SGT rank. Or did I miss something? My son was made a Tm ldr as a SPC and was never offered CPL stripes before being deployed to Iraq, A-1/27th Inf., 172nd Inf Bde. Some infantry units use them others don't. Take the responsibility. It will help in your life later in or out of service. I was made an acting jack CPL as a PFC because of the job I had any the people I dealt with. Some ppl were more apt to dealing with an NCO than with a private. When I deployed to Germany in 2985. I had to revert back to PFC rank. You may have to suck it up and drive or you may not be able to become an NCO for a longer time afterwards because of your refusal to take the responsibility of a team leader.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2021 3:37 PM

2021-12-29T15:37:51-05:00

It's been a while since this question was posted, but I'll throw in my two cents for the benefit of anyone who's in a similar position.

You're looking at this from a position of how the world SHOULD work. I agree with you that it's stupid to give people more responsibility without giving them more compensation. More responsibility always equals more hours away from your family and not doing the things you want to do, and you should get more money for it.

That said, you're at a point in your career where you need to decide if you're going to make a career out of the Army or not. If this issue really pisses you off, I'd advise you to separate, because you're going to see this kind of bullshit your whole career. If this is something you can live with for the next 20 years and you want to be in the Army until retirement, take the team leader position and don't complain about it. Keep reading for my explanation:

Here's how the world REALLY works (in no particular order):
1. Taking on additional responsibility is an audition for your promotion.
2. You need to get a diverse experience to be the best leader you can be.
3. The Army runs on patronage and good-old-boy clubs from bottom to top (even with good leaders, but especially with bad ones), and this is about a lot more than just you (yes, politics).

Expanded explanations:
1. Taking on additional responsibility is an audition for your promotion.
Have you ever seen someone who was handed a position that just fucked it up constantly and either had to have everyone around them pull their weight? Or who was such a miserable piece of shit that everyone suffered because they were so terrible at their job? Having you do this job is an opportunity for leadership to evaluate your performance before giving you authority that would be a lot harder to take back later on. And NCOs can do a lot of damage if they suck at their jobs. If you're being offered a leadership position, your leaders have probably noticed you doing pretty good at your current job, so this is a serious compliment. It's an opportunity for you to shine and show them that they've picked the right guy for the job.

2. You need to get a diverse experience to be the best leader you can be.
I don't know how it is in your branch or unit, but every branch and unit has diverse roles to fill. Later on down the road you may be called to be a SHARP rep, an RTA, a readiness or training NCO, get sent to an S2 shop, or lots of other things. Many of these positions are important; some are just for compliance with regulations; some can be kind of pointless. But commanders are responsible for complying with regulations and orders, and every one of these positions is an opportunity to make sure the commander isn't getting his ass chewed. So the more of these positions you take (and mostly they'll be without extra pay and will require extra hours of work after the day's already done), the more well-rounded of a Soldier you'll be, and the more you can make sure your Joes are in compliance with them. It doesn't matter if you're a fire team leader or a meat gazer; it allows you to save your commander headaches.

3. The Army runs on patronage and good-old-boy clubs from bottom to top (even with good leaders, but especially with bad ones), and this is about a lot more than just you (yes, politics). In a larger sense, this isn't just about saving your commander an ass chewing today. It's also about your leaders knowing that you can be counted on to make the unit look good, and them building the leaders they need down the road. Your Company Commander today while you're a SPC may be a Battalion Commander down the road who needs a SSG or a SFC to head up a Platoon or a Company; and your PLT SGT or 1SG today may be a CSM down the road who needs a SFC down the road who he knows will make sure that a Platoon or a Company isn't going to make him look like a shitbag. Every position you take and execute faithfully builds a relationship with future leaders down the road. And as you execute, it makes leaders more willing to look at your NCOERs to make sure they shine; and it makes leaders start planning to get you schools and positions that will look good on your NCOERs down the road. I've been blessed with some really good leaders over the years who looked for opportunities to mentor me as I've progressed in my career; they've seen this as a way to make sure that the mission is accomplished and the unit is led by the most dedicated leaders so that their Soldiers don't get shat on by fucktarded leaders. I've also had some shitty leaders over the years, and any opportunity for advancement with that kind of leader is going to come after they ask themselves, "What has Sergeant Snuffy done for me lately?" Either way, if you want to advance in your career, you should look for opportunities to save your leaders headaches and make them look good, because once you hit a certain point, informal input from higher up is going to decide whether you get a particular position or whether you get blocked.

A lot of this political bullshit chaps my hide. I'm kind of known in my unit as the guy who's going to call a spade a spade, but I can usually articulate things such that I only piss off the truly shitty leaders. Good leaders are usually happy to have me around because when I call out bullshit they know it will save them headaches down the road (and it really helps that I'm wise enough not to call out bullshit in a setting where it will make them look bad). In reality, if I had my way, they'd bring back the Specialist ranks and I'd just be worried about the technical aspects of my job without having leadership responsibilities or worrying about promotions and all of that bullshit.

That said, if you have good leadership and you want to make a career out of the Army, you'll want to take the above into consideration. It'll open up opportunities for you so that you can make sure the Soldiers you lead are taken care of right and the shitty leaders don't fuck things up too bad for everyone. If you can't handle the politics (no judgment here if that's not your thing; I suck at politics myself) or you have shitty leaders you can't/don't trust, or you just don't want to put in all the extra hours every week for the next 20 years, I'd separate and find somewhere else to work. It'll save you a lot of frustration. Just a fair word of warning, in my experience, most promotions will get you something like a 10 percent raise in pay and a 50 percent raise in responsibility.

Response by SPC Robert Frizzell made Dec 30 at 2021 11:47 AM

2021-12-30T11:47:59-05:00

I just checked, and you don't get any more money for being a corporal or a Spec 4, it's just a patch, the pay is the same. However if you were getting Sargent/E5 that would be different, E5's make more than E 4's. I would take the CPL and keep my mouth shut, be thankful. If your going to a school it doesn't matter. If I was your CO I'd take away for you just asking the question.

Response by CH (CPT) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2021 3:15 PM

2021-12-30T15:15:32-05:00

SMH; if you're in uniform for the money...you're in the wrong business. A million dollars is not worth losing your life or limb. My advice is take on the extra responsibility it will help you in the long haul (Col. 3:23). O'l boy how happy I was pinning on Corporal? When I got that on nobody could tell me anything. Just gimme the damn work and get out of my way.

Response by CPL Earl Kochis made Dec 30 at 2021 3:50 PM

2021-12-30T15:50:43-05:00

Why is a so called SGT asking this question

Response by CPL George Cruz made Dec 30 at 2021 5:44 PM

2021-12-30T17:44:00-05:00

That actually looks good for you. Before you start getting NCOER you get to practice what is expected of you.

Response by SPC Terry Martin made Jan 6 at 2022 2:44 AM

2022-01-06T02:44:29-05:00

Good question. Also, not sure if there's such a thing as Pro Pay, but if there is, can you still get it as a Corporal?

Response by CPL Scott Young made Jan 6 at 2022 7:54 AM

2022-01-06T07:54:33-05:00

"I will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit or personal safety." Part of the creed of the Non Commissioned Officer. Use it as training for leadership.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2022 9:01 PM

2022-01-06T21:01:17-05:00

I've had two SFC in a 1sg position over the years. One of them did a great job while the other was a pos. However neither of them complained about the extra duty. Accept the position and learn so that when you advance you are (hopefully) a good leader.

Response by CPL Dennis Clark made Jan 8 at 2022 10:53 AM

2022-01-08T10:53:24-05:00

You could but there's a good chance you wouldn't have a choice and they would make you feel like a jackass for turning it down. You know how they are about motivation. The more you accept the opportunity and seem motivated about it the greater your chances of greater opportunities in the future. Look at the positive of it. Since corporal is a junior NCO it would give you a head start when they send you to PLDC. You would go into E5 with greater experience than someone who would go there straight from Specialist. I know that not every unit sends Corporals to PLDC but mine did. Don't turn down opportunities like this, especially if you want the Army to be a career. If you choose to end your term in Active and finish your 8-year contract in the Reserves just know that the rank works different in the Reserves. In active Army if you earn that rank they give it to you. In the Reserves if you earn, or deserve that rank they will not give it to you, unless they have a position for that rank open and available. That being said, if you go into the Reserves, whatever rank you are is the rank you keep when you enter. If the unit is already full of that position then they'll just attach you to a different unit that needs that rank, which may be in a completely different post but you can stay with the local unit, until it's time for your assigned unit to go to training.

Response by 1SG Edward Ruesga made Jan 9 at 2022 4:50 PM

2022-01-09T16:50:52-05:00

This right here is the problem with the new Army! (Among others). I don’t get paid enough mentality will be the demise of a great organization. Shrugging off responsibilities until you get paid for them. If I was in your chain of command you would have just forfeited your ability to attend Ranger school, and definitely not be placed in a leadership position where that loosen of an attitude could infect the good order, discipline and cohesion of the unit. Yes by all means do yourself, your unit, and the military a favor and decline to sign the 4187 or assume any leadership roles.

Response by SPC James Seigars made Jan 10 at 2022 4:05 PM

2022-01-10T16:05:20-05:00

SGT Harrison, I hope that you didn’t deny your 4187 (since your profile says SGT I’m assuming you finished BLC or received a provisional early promotion). If you did and decide to stay in it may bite you in the future. I was a Corporal for a time, as well as a Sergeant from August 03 to October 06 (38 months) until I did something stupid trying to look out for my family and got myself demoted. That was bad enough, but then I let my pride & ego get in the way and refused to go back to the board and reacquire my rank. So now I am on here listed as a Specialist when I could have been listed as a Sergeant instead, that is just one way refusing something that is meant to help you and give you valuable experience can bite you in the future. You also lose pay & respect because you either think you are better than those you serve with or you are just a quitter (at least that is how they will see it). So as someone who is retired and spent most of his career performing duties 1-2 ranks above his pay grade you made a couple of stupid mistakes I am asking you to always accept the position/promotion (lateral, temporary, etc) that is offered to you because you never know how it will help you (or inspire your soldiers) in the long run (and getting in good with your superiors couldn’t hurt if you plan on making a career out of Government service after you leave the military either). In any case, Good Luck and stay frosty.

Response by SFC Sfc Darwin Maring, USA Ret made Jan 15 at 2022 10:57 AM

2022-01-15T10:57:57-05:00

Welcome to the new Army. If you dont take the Cpl you are stuck at specialist 4. Back in my day specialist went all the way to Spec 9. It was a way of rewarding the technical troops for their expertise.

Response by SPC Martin Meyer made Jan 22 at 2022 2:23 PM

2022-01-22T14:23:34-05:00

Personally, I would have jumped at the offer to be a corporal over a specialist. My understanding back when was the specialist ranks were primarily for those they did not consider to be leaders but needed to get promoted. Being 11B2P I would have coveted the rank of corporal.

Response by SP5 George Smith made Jan 26 at 2022 5:06 AM

2022-01-26T05:06:50-05:00

Promotions, in part, are not about extra pay and other duties, it places one in the position to take care of others. Train them and drill them to get whatever the MOS may be to get the job done AND to make it home. Leadership is never about you, the pay, or a perfect performance evaluation. Uncle Sam places the lives of your people in your hands to fulfill the mission. Part of that mission is to bring’em home. What better way to take care of people than to be better trained yourself.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2022 12:42 PM

2022-01-28T12:42:51-05:00

Dude, take it from me …. I declined a SGT promo, big mistake

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2022 1:31 PM

2022-02-06T13:31:15-05:00

Once you pass BLC and are promotable IAW Milper messages 17-21 (I believe) you are laterally promoted. No 4187 you are just an NCO.

Response by CPL Patricia Gentry made Feb 27 at 2022 6:07 AM

2022-02-27T06:07:11-05:00

Are you in it just for the money? You are probably already doing the work! I was a corporal and it made me a better Sgt.

Response by CSM Tony Blair made Feb 28 at 2022 12:43 AM

2022-02-28T00:43:58-05:00

Soooo,
This is about money??
Not leadership? Not living up to the NCO Creed? If I was in your chain of Command and I read this, you’d never become a leader in my Company or Battalion, I would pull you from your slot in Ranger school, if I could, it sounds like you are on the road to be that guy, don’t be that guy, you know that guy??
The one who everyone wonders how did they become a leader????

We use to say
“For God and Country “

They say the military is changing, no the soldiers are. You need to adjust and rethink why you wear the uniform.

CSM Blair

Response by CPL Michael Moore made Mar 3 at 2022 1:17 PM

2022-03-03T13:17:17-05:00

I don’t know what the pay is now but in my day there was no difference in pay between a Sp4 and hard stripe Cpl. I also recently read that all Sp4 will convert to Corporal’s stripes.

Response by SPC Chet Hollingsworth made Mar 6 at 2022 10:40 PM

2022-03-06T22:40:40-05:00

I was laterally promoted to Cpl. Did not goes as planned. Frustrated me badly so I requested a lateral transfer back to SPC. And it bit me in the ass about two weeks later. Hit with a bar to reenlistment. I had reenlisted 5 months prior do figured I had time to earn the bar lifted. Except I ran face first into a wall full of medboard.. and that was all she wrote.
My advice? Take the hard stripes, learn early good and bad leaders can show you. Grow through failing the early stuff and making those moments to key learning points. While E-4 Mafia clearly has more fun, those who make E-5 tend to burn out fast. Use the hardstripe time to understand how the next level of management operates in the actual and theoretical realms. Reach out to different SENIOR NCOs on how to improve your strengths, transform you weaknesses, learn why and how the job is supposed to function. Better to learn it as a struggling corporal than get it thrown at you as a newly pinned e5

Response by Sgt Ed Allen made Mar 7 at 2022 9:32 PM

2022-03-07T21:32:13-05:00

You can always do what Pvt Forcucci did.
Whenever he found out that the promotion warrant was on the CO's desk, he would go to the E-Club and wait for an MP to show up. He would then have 1 beer and go punch the MP. He figured that if anybody deserved getting punched, it was the MP.
This, of course, would be reported to the CO who would then shred the promotion warrant and bust Forcucci down from PFC to Pvt.
He, like you, didn't want any responsibility for other people. He just wanted to do his job and, if needed, was more than willing to fight.
He was also one of the last people I knew, who retired after 20 years of service as a PFC. Shortly after that is when the USMC said that you couldn't stay for 20 unless you made E7.

Response by SFC Johnny Connor made Mar 12 at 2022 12:56 PM

2022-03-12T12:56:02-05:00

A lot of answers will be against your attitude. Listen no one will take care of you except you. Oftentimes in the military you will work above your grade. I understand completely where you coming from. As a Specialist I was put in charge of a team. I had to counsel 5 guys, be responsible for my equipment and do all the duties of a Sergeant to include training battle buddies that sometimes know the equipment better than I did. But this is how it works. Take it as an experience to learn to be a leader. As a Corporal they will give you more room to mess up and learn. As a sergeant you are expected to be on top of your game at all times. Don't let any of the wackos here tell you that you don't deserve to be promoted. You do. You need counseling and that s what your seniors do for you. Finally remember that you work for your reputation.

Response by SPC Martin Meyer made Mar 12 at 2022 4:12 PM

2022-03-12T16:12:56-05:00

I suggest you turn down ranger school as I do not believe you have the leadership capabilities to be a Ranger.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2022 4:54 PM

2022-03-12T16:54:36-05:00

This is largely what happens in the rest of the world. Civilian, Military or otherwise.
Prove you are worthy of the responsibility then the spoils usually follow.

What about all those LTC's filling in Division Commander slots at the beginning of WW2, what about all those PFC's acting as PSG's, and E5's acting as 1SG?

The military is largely a lethargic bureaucratic process of promotions and assignments. You'll find the timing of opportunities don't always line up in nice clean progression of promotions and assignments.

Want to know messed up? How about getting paid less than a younger less capable peer who manages to get BAH with dependents just because he has them. $$$ as a function entirely irrelevant of job capabilities.

How about being an idiot taking command in a O3 slot when only a O2. Getting paid no more, getting promoted no sooner, and taking on all the personal, professional and financial risks of an Active Duty CPT but only paid 1/10th the pay.

How's that for BS?
*********

It's just part of the system. There isn't a Sr ranking NCO or Officer that hasn't had that situation themselves.

In fact, look up the SPACE FORCE higher officer commands. There is a FOUR STAR on TOP with a bunch of COL's (last time I looked) as direct reports, and they all stuck their necks out in anticipation of picking up one, two, and three stars while filling those roles only as COL's.

Response by SGM Omer Dalton made Mar 12 at 2022 5:19 PM

2022-03-12T17:19:36-05:00

You have to be kidding. What is the real purpose of this question? While in Germany around 1965, we lost most of our senior NCOs because of the Vietnam buildup with no replacements. I was appointed a Sergeant and placed in a SFC position. I later made SSG and was placed in a MSG slot. The mission had to continue and the junior staff had to step up, and we did. It had nothing to do with pay; it was all about responsibility to the organization and the army as a whole. And think how this looked on NCOERs. If you don’t want to step up then you are in the wrong organization and taking up space that a responsible soldier would gladly do. If I was your CSM you would never be an NCO or get further training. If you want to remain in the army past this enlistment, step up and take the responsibility.

Response by SGT Charles Whited made Mar 12 at 2022 9:36 PM

2022-03-12T21:36:06-05:00

Did someone from duffleblog pose this question?

Response by SSG Robert Vernon made Mar 13 at 2022 4:43 PM

2022-03-13T16:43:35-04:00

I honestly am not happy reading this, If your just in the military for the money, then you should of NEVER enlisted . You as a NCO was promoted to lead your squad / team because of showing you have the tools to do so, You passed the board and yet because your required to complete BLC or get back from Ranger school is to me a sign of someone afraid they can't pass the next series of test to prove you deserve those stripes and just looking for the easy way to be paid for not wanting to further gain the knowledge your peers will rely on you for, And if you in anyway what so ever think this attitude will get you through BLC or Ranger School , then just maybe instead of declining being promotion to Corporal you should be talking to your Commander about a discharge out of the military. I never once gave pay a thought when I enlisted or passed the NCO board and so on , There was 2 real reasons I joined the Military , (1) To help protect and defend the Greatest Nation in the world against Monsters like Russia , China, North Korea and (2) serve in the best Military, beside others that had the same reasons (or better reasons) as why enlisted and when I enlisted back in the 80's the Cold War was escalating, and USSR was trying to flex their Muscles and so on , I stood guard on the DMZ in South Korea and never once was the question about getting the proper pay . I'm very disappointed in reading something like this and JUST maybe the answer you should be considering is being Discharged and finding civilian employment with an employer you feel your qualified for.

Response by SFC Francisco Rosario made Mar 16 at 2022 4:31 PM

2022-03-16T16:31:51-04:00

Be very careful, this type of attitude can be seen by your leadership as laziness or just plain immaturity. They have selected you for the job because they great potential in you. This can derail your young career.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Mar 16 at 2022 6:49 PM

2022-03-16T18:49:05-04:00

My son was an E4 working an E6 billet, he didn’t get a penny more. You do what you have to do I guess, so you essentially got your line number, if you plan to get out your ok I’d guess, your just EAS, you want to stay in you killed your career.

Response by PFC John Hopping made Mar 17 at 2022 5:58 PM

2022-03-17T17:58:56-04:00

Embrace the suck.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2022 12:38 PM

2022-03-18T12:38:09-04:00

About face.

Response by MCPO Hans Brakob made Mar 24 at 2022 11:41 PM

2022-03-24T23:41:38-04:00

If you worked for me, you just lost CPL stripes.

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made Mar 25 at 2022 4:58 AM

2022-03-25T04:58:26-04:00

SARGE.?... I HOPE You Took That Promo To Corporal;...... Each Promo Is A Move To The Next One ...
At Some Point You MUST Accept A Leadership Role If You Plan On Making The Service A Career Or Advance Anywhere. ..The Sooner You Begin The Sooner It'll Become Easier & Easier, Then One Morning You'll Wake Up & It's Like You've Always Had The Skill.

BTW: I'm Speaking From Experience; Believe This Or Not, At 14 I Went To Live In Panama With My Brother, Jim... He Was Already Rather Wealthy At The Time; He Owned, Outright, An Insurance Company; (La Tienda De Seguros) A Service Station (Paitilla Gulf) An Auto Body Shop (Name Slips Me) . A Roller Skating Rink (El Patin Dorado), An Electronics Repair Shop (Television Pan-Americano) And Some Others.

ANYWAY, One Day He Took Me Aside & Said "Rick, I Realize You'e Just A Teenager, But You May As Well Start Learning To Be A Business Manager, And NOW Is a Good Time To Start" ... I Was Trained At His Service Station Then Manager Within 6 Months....( YES, I Was The Owners Kid Brother, So It Was NO Surprise To Anyone .... So Obviously, The Position Was GIVEN To Me ......Then Earned After Later.. LOL. ...
SO, As I Was Saying, I Hope You Took The Promo... Then You'll Almost Fall Into Supervision As You Move Forward With Your Career... And, Contrary To What You May Think, It AIN'T All That Difficult.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2022 10:56 AM

2022-04-11T10:56:03-04:00

Dont do it battle take that e4p there gonna be alot of different reason why you have to take charge . Do it on your own terms not in a oh fuck im here what do i do.. lead to panic an complacency.

Response by SSgt Mathew Cummings made Apr 11 at 2022 11:10 AM

2022-04-11T11:10:46-04:00

Yes, you can deny a promotion, however that may stop or hinder career progression and may impact retention. Best of luck but if you are concerned for financial gains by primary, you may have chosen the wrong career entirely. I fulfilled E8 and E9 positions as an E6 for the mission and for my Marines. The pay is not what my survival depended on.

Response by AA Loreen Silvarahawk made Apr 18 at 2022 7:30 PM

2022-04-18T19:30:09-04:00

You signed up for promotions and if you cannot be a leader without being paid then you should not have joined. My Dad got a "field promotion", did not like it but took on the challenge and did so very well with it and got paid once he returned stateside.

Response by SP5 Roy Sonye made May 6 at 2022 5:29 PM

2022-05-06T17:29:43-04:00

So your leadership skills are based on money

Response by SPC Tina Jones made May 8 at 2022 10:55 PM

2022-05-08T22:55:53-04:00

I would not. Gain the experience. Someone thinks your valuable

Response by SSG Brian Pearce made May 22 at 2022 10:38 PM

2022-05-22T22:38:14-04:00

If I was your 1SG or CSM you’d be lucky to get a class on police call once I read this, you sound like exactly what the Army doesn’t need.

Response by SFC W. Lopez made May 25 at 2022 1:49 AM

2022-05-25T01:49:57-04:00

Leadership is not about money or personal gain. By the way did you memorize or at least read the NCO Creed before the Board? Is just that if you did, common sense is telling me that you had an emergency talk with your Squad Leader or Platoon Sergeant about your participation on that Board. How is it that a Soldier is sent to the Promotion Board and recommended for promotion without the minimum basic knowledge of being a Leader? Kind of scary….

Response by SGT David Sievers made May 25 at 2022 12:20 PM

2022-05-25T12:20:38-04:00

Responsibility without authority is slavery. If they expect you to be held as the one in charge you should receive the adequate compensation for such.

Response by SGT Walt Pozgay made May 25 at 2022 3:19 PM

2022-05-25T15:19:03-04:00

It may be thatI’ve been out too long, but since when does a CPL (E4) make more than a SPC (E4). Am I missing something?

Also, you should NEVER refuse an opportunity to practice being a leader. When you are punching up, you get a lot more grace when you make a mistake than you do later. Get that experience!

Response by SPC John Cummings made May 25 at 2022 9:57 PM

2022-05-25T21:57:05-04:00

So, now you are a SGT. What happened with the CPL rank? How has that shaped you as a leader?

Response by PO3 Charles Brooks made May 26 at 2022 3:51 AM

2022-05-26T03:51:11-04:00

Tell you what. You can request anything. You would wish the worst they could tell you is no. But do you REALLY want to go this route? You're not taking the role of a sergeant major as an E4, you're not missing big bucks here. But you are asking for big problems. Check the comments and read the room. This is a BAD idea. If you decide to continue, don't be surprised if you're passed over on future boards for a LONG time.

Response by SGT Kenneth Arant made May 26 at 2022 7:25 AM

2022-05-26T07:25:37-04:00

Man, I never even thought about denying CPL before I was promoted to SGT. My cut off at the time was maxed out and I waited 2 years before I was able to get promoted.

Response by SR Johnathan Lawson made May 26 at 2022 7:51 AM

2022-05-26T07:51:17-04:00

As an E2 I was filling an E4 and an E5 billet in the same division, at the same time. All the responsibilities, duties and authorities of those positions minus the pay. It's the military, not burger king. We join to serve our country, not for the great pay...if folks only joined for the pay then we'd have a pretty small military force. Too many Karens signing up these days....

Response by SSG Raul Alaniz made May 26 at 2022 7:41 PM

2022-05-26T19:41:01-04:00

Why would you want to do that? Is this a for real question or BSing around question? I will ask YOU these questions, and I would "NEVER" PUT YOU UP FOR PROMOTION AGAIN OR OTHERWISE. When I was a SPC, I in was in a SGT's position, then when I was a SGT I was in an SSG position and SFC position, etc, etc, etc. I don't know how these things happen, they just happen. No Bump in pay, but the learning and prestige of how to be a Leader were priceless. Do yourself a favor and get the _uck out of My Army, I don't have time for crybabies, and I'll train people who want to be Leaders. No sympathy from me. Have a Nice Day.

Response by SSG Raul Alaniz made May 26 at 2022 7:56 PM

2022-05-26T19:56:22-04:00

You made SGT??? WTF

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2022 1:08 AM

2022-05-27T01:08:09-04:00

I am reading this quite late and am very curious how everything worked out for you. I hope your leadership discussed options with you and discussed the reasons for you wanting to decline a promotion based on you not wanting a leadership role that comes with such a promotion and based on pay or the lack of; that is quite disheartening. As a new HM1 I was told that I may be the new LPO (Lead Petty Officer). I was privately thinking "Dang, can I experience being a 1st class for at least a few months before being an LPO. But at the same time, I knew this was a possibility long before I advanced and knew it was an important role that can be rewarding and beneficial for junior sailors and for myself; especially for my next goal of achieving a new role as an HMC. I hope you took on the role you obviously earned and have been making the most of it and lifting up your junior enlisted to become better leaders. If not, I hope you can surround yourself with quality leaders who can show you what it means to be a leader; recieving the pay or not for such a role.

Response by SSG Michael Vanim made May 27 at 2022 8:42 AM

2022-05-27T08:42:06-04:00

CPL and SPC pay are both an E-4, you will be paid the same.

Response by SSG Michael Vanim made May 27 at 2022 8:44 AM

2022-05-27T08:44:58-04:00

SPC and CPL pay are the same. Take the lateral promotion, then go to school.
So, not sure of your question.
If you are saying that you need to go to school to get your SGT stripes, then you take the position, then go to school and get your stripes. again, not sure of your question. It is the Army, that is what you do.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2022 9:43 AM

2022-05-27T09:43:25-04:00

Granted, this is a year-old thread, I would like to impart some wisdom to you based on my career. When I was a Specialist, I had just redeployed from a 15-month tour to Iraq. My office consisted of a CPT, 1LT, SFC, 2xSSGs, and 3xSPCs (me being one). Each of the SPCs was promotable, but I was the ranking SPC. I redeployed as the "NCO" for my section (S-2) with three soldiers under me, while the other offices, sections, etc. sent back SGTs and SSGs with the Advanced-D. Once everyone returned from the tour, I was promoted to SGT and within a month, everyone who outranked me PCS'd to another unit, leaving me in the most senior billet. I spent 10 months in that MTOE slot for an SFC being a brand new SGT. I had to attend the PLT SGT meetings with the 1SG, make decisions about my section, sit in for staff meetings that typically would involve the SFC and CPT of the S-2, train all of my soldiers, perform all of the garrison tasks of the staff sections, maintain the vehicles in the motor pool, and maintain the hand receipts for all of the S-2 equipment without the help of any higher-ranking members of my office because I was the highest ranking. To make matters more stressful, during a month-long exercise where they placed me not only as the Staff Duty NCOIC, I was also the TOC NCOIC for the entire month. Yes, I served in three simultaneous positions that were well beyond my pay grade for an extended period of time. The point I'm trying to make, there will be times in your career when you will be given a position, whether it temporary or permanent, where you will be performing duties beyond your pay grade. Take these moments as a blessing! If you do an outstanding job, meaning no one has to keep an eye on you or constantly correct your mistakes, your command will look upon you favorably and this will give you experience, plus it helps when it comes time to get another promotion. If you're only in this for the money, I'm afraid I must tell you that this probably isn't where you need to be because you may not be ready for a promotion with this mindset.

Response by SPC Clifford Deal made May 27 at 2022 11:43 AM

2022-05-27T11:43:38-04:00

Why. Sa a sp4 in an NBC room I had issues getting things done after I'd been told to. Privates joke about a "Full bird" isn't a command rank, so they don'tbhave to listen, Non comms ..well we ARE JUST a "Full Bird Private", so no respect due there..after all "He's NOT a non comm.."

Take the Damn hardstripe. And be THANKFUL they offered it.

Response by SFC Byron Perry made May 27 at 2022 8:10 PM

2022-05-27T20:10:10-04:00

Of course, but it wouldn't be a wise decision. If I were anyone in your leadership chain, I would do whatever is necessary to revoke your promotability, since you obviously have no desire to be a leader. That is what being promoted beyond SPC is, a leader. Long gone are are the days of Spec-5, 6 ,and 7.

Response by Patrick Price made May 27 at 2022 9:34 PM

2022-05-27T21:34:06-04:00

Listen to the responses on here from experienced soldiers- they're giving you free, common-sense advice. If you're as smart as your unit thinks you are, you'll take their advice and take the promotion. If you're not smart enough to listen and take this free advice, then you're not leadership material. You decide...

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made May 28 at 2022 3:58 AM

2022-05-28T03:58:39-04:00

You're actually insane enough to ask this question? The very fact you're ASKING this question is proof to everyone reading this post that YOU DON'T HAVE WHAT IT TAKES TO LEAD TROOPS!!! I have to back up WO1 Jeff C. on this one. THE AUDACITY AND ARROGANCE ON YOUR PART TO EVEN WRITE THIS IS OFFENSIVE!!!!!

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2022-05-28T03:58:49-04:00

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Response by PO2 Tim Hawks made May 28 at 2022 2:56 PM

2022-05-28T14:56:59-04:00

With any branch of the service you get out of it what you put in to it. Suck it up and give it a 110% will take you a long way. One day you’ll be a civilian again and this mindset will be a great help in anything you choose to do.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2022 7:07 AM

2022-05-29T07:07:24-04:00

I do believe there is a regulation that will allow you to decline promotions. However, I believe in your case you may run the risk of reaching high Year tenure. If you are that Stressed about getting paid for what you do then perhaps the best solution is to do the research so you know what the Army and DOD guidance is.

Response by SrA Roderick Nix made May 29 at 2022 8:38 AM

2022-05-29T08:38:35-04:00

Are you stupid or something? Little advice. Take whatever is asked (required) of you. Delete this post because if your seniors are reading this and they probably are, you’ll never be anything but a SP4. Soldier tf up and carry on

Response by SFC John Fourquet made May 29 at 2022 8:40 PM

2022-05-29T20:40:01-04:00

If you do not want leadership responsibility, why did you go before a promotion board? Seems like you you care more about the money than than the responsibility of leadership. Maybe your chain of command should remove you from the promotion list.

Response by SGT John Prolo made May 30 at 2022 5:38 PM

2022-05-30T17:38:19-04:00

Hahaha...this new Army is a Joke! At least he's not wearing a bra or Transitioning into a SHIM.

Response by 1LT Christopher Jamison made May 30 at 2022 10:25 PM

2022-05-30T22:25:59-04:00

I spent my second year as a 2LT as a battalion S4. Sometimes you gotta step up and do the work. You’ll get much more respect if you take the job and do the work than if you refuse the promotion to get out of it. Just my .02

Response by SP5 David Cox made May 31 at 2022 1:37 AM

2022-05-31T01:37:30-04:00

Am I missing something? Aren't both SPC and CPL E4s? Isn't the pay the same?

Response by CPT Jim Lee made Jun 6 at 2022 12:24 PM

2022-06-06T12:24:03-04:00

Josh.. ask yourself if you are truly a leader. If you are, advance your career expeditiously. If you are not, deny the 4187 and separate at ETS.

Response by CPL David Widding made Jun 15 at 2022 9:04 PM

2022-06-15T21:04:30-04:00

Fortunate you we told ahead of time in the 80's you were a fireteam leader as a E3 for 6 months before being prompted. I believe almost everyone did the job for months before getting promoted and the pay came later

Response by SPC Paul Stevenson made Jun 19 at 2022 10:47 PM

2022-06-19T22:47:52-04:00

Sheesh, you have to show Leadership skills in order to get leadership pay. even as an sp4 in some cases, you ARE the one in a leadership position. take the step or you may find you won't get the chance again.

Response by LCpl Michael Cappello made Jun 20 at 2022 5:41 PM

2022-06-20T17:41:08-04:00

This is an OLD question. I can see from the Sgt's stripes that this one found the way. Out damn standing. I hope you can look back at this question and shake your head over how "young and dumb" you were. I also hope you will have the honor to use that experience as an example when some other "young" trooper needs to un-cluster themselves. Way to go Sarge.

Response by SGT Bobby Ewing made Jun 27 at 2022 10:27 AM

2022-06-27T10:27:55-04:00

I was a Cpl. for awhile before I got my E-5 promotion and I loved it because I learned a lot of things to get me ready to take over as a squad leader. I am not positive, but I do believe new Army regs state you must be a CPL before you can be promoted to SGT. So embrace the suck as they say and think of it as a learning opportunity. Otherwise, maybe your not ready to take that leadership position after all!

Response by SPC Robert Bobo made Jun 29 at 2022 4:26 PM

2022-06-29T16:26:50-04:00

You only get so many opportunities , to many good people with potential "pass up" opportunities that often don't come around again. Back in the 70s we use to have Acting Jack Sgt that were SP4's the good ones became hard E5 , the weak ones returned to SP4

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2022 7:22 AM

2022-07-27T07:22:33-04:00

SGT Private RallyPoint Member I see you have promoted to SGT. Did you complete RASP? I do not see a new beret. How is your attitude going? I hope you love and care for your soldiers better than you view the pay or position. I have been reading some of your other posts. You appear to have skipped E4? I see PFC then SGT. How did that work?

Response by SGT Mark Seymour made Jul 29 at 2022 10:41 AM

2022-07-29T10:41:18-04:00

Boy I don’t know I’ve never refused a promotion in my life. I was always glad to Sapphire responsibilities regardless of pay. I worked my way up to Sargent and had acted at a higher level on many occasions. Take the responsibilities that you now have been given.

Response by SPC Kenneth James made Jul 29 at 2022 10:31 PM

2022-07-29T22:31:27-04:00

Well I am confused because your heading already says you are a Sgt unless I am missing how much has changed how are you a Sgt but you say that you have to stay a cpl/ spec are you a Sgt because the cut off score and if you are wearing Sgt stripes how are you not getting pay grade I'm so confused

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2022 9:05 AM

2022-07-30T09:05:57-04:00

"I don't want to take responsibility as a team leader and still get paid as a SPC."

This is your thesis and main idea. Congrats on passing the board. At this point of reading your post, unfortunately, your getting through it is irrelevant. Your statement of what you do not want outshines your accomplishment.

Simply put, you don't want to lead. You don't want to be a NCO. You want a paycheck. I hate to break it to you; but if you're going to remain in the Military for any longer, you will always be assigned duties beyond your rank.

It's an honor to be a CPL where CPLs are recognized. You do not have the requirements to promote to the next higher grade. It's a slap in the face to your leadership who saw the potential to promote but have been limited by your not meeting the requirements to be pinned. A bit self-righteous don't you think?

The fact that you wear this uniform and "I don't want" falls out of your mouth and onto an online forum shows the need for development, maturity, and less entitlement.

Perhaps it is a fail on both sides. You for not meeting requirements - of course you know you need BLC. But also, the leadership for not advising prior to the Board that you would beat CPL until you do meet the required PME.

Either way, you're still at an advantage unless your BN CSM sees this and overturns the decision to promote as someone else suggested.
The fact that the Board is completed, once you're done with BLC, you only have to update your file and wait for promotion orders.

But to not want to learn or do the job is unacceptable.

Don't be that leader. We have enough of those. Be better.

Response by MAJ Richard Cheek made Jul 30 at 2022 7:18 PM

2022-07-30T19:18:14-04:00

You boys are spoiled I had PFC leading squads in the 101st in 72. I was an e5 acting platoon sgt. Hell I took a majors position for over a year as an e7. Your a leader or your a snuffy make up your mind.

Response by SFC Herbert Taitingfong made Jul 30 at 2022 8:32 PM

2022-07-30T20:32:57-04:00

If you're in it for the money then decline and get back in line, which shows everybody what kind of person and leader you are or you will be. We are all expendable, grab the opportunity and separate yourself from the rest, put your back-bone in it, or there will be another young motivated Soldier, next in-line to do so!

With that said......

Your BLC school date is probably close and you are not promoted to Sergeant yet.
You have to be an NCO before going to BLC, that's why your leaders want to pin Corporal on you or your PSG and schools guy will have to push back your BLC dates until after you are promoted to Sgt/E-5.

As a Corporal, you are an NCO and will be indoctrinated into the NCO Corps and will reap all the benefits as other NCOs prior to BLC and you will be ahead of the game on other NCOs at that school, as a leader, already.

"Step-up or Shut-up! Lead by example! or just get out of the way!"

Response by PO2 Lon Hebert made Jul 31 at 2022 11:15 AM

2022-07-31T11:15:05-04:00

I was not in the army but to me anyone who gets promoted should take it. when I was in the navy in 1982 I made RM2 E-5 I was frocked to E-5 Meaning that I was still getting paid as a RM3/E-4 Until my actual date I got paid for E-5. But I was a watch sup in NAVFAC Guam radio shack. it is your responsibility to take the promotion to show the chain of command that you are willing to be in charge. if all you are caring about is the money then you need to get out.

Response by SGT David Schrader made Jul 31 at 2022 8:14 PM

2022-07-31T20:14:31-04:00

Why would you want to decline becoming a Corporal?
You are going through Ranger school and yet you do not want to be in a leadership position?
Makes no sense, unless you just want to be a follower or do not intend to stay in the Army.
Apparently your chain of command sees enough in you to put you in a leadership position. If you try to decline this leadership position, it can possibly jeopardize your Ranger status or any future promotion possibilities. Do you not want to be a leader? Think about what you are considering. Don’t throw your opportunities away.
Good luck to you.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2022 6:58 AM

2022-08-01T06:58:51-04:00

Wow, I am honestly suprised by the hostility demonstrated in this comment section. The kid simply asked if he legally can deny a 4187. It would be easy to pigeonhole yourself into thinking this decision is strictly about his monthly paycheck. Though that is the example he cited as justification, it is much more complicated an issue than that. Not being familiar with HIS SPECIFIC COMMAND TEAM, we cannot assume that he is just a "shitbag" who doesnt want the responsibility of an NCO.

As someone who watched points sit at 790-never and WAS promoted to corporal for the duration, I can say corporal was HANDS DOWN the WORST time in my career. I found myself as the CQ NCO as well as the CQ runner bc a runner was "E4 and below" and CQ NCO required "an NCO". If there was a Soldier on extra duty, guess which NCO they used and abused? Pawned off inconvenient NCO duties to, yup, me. But NCOPD? Never. Stable Call for NCOs? E5 and up. Corporal is literally a rank that is given next to no respect and is abused by leadership. Now, consider the financial implications, no additional money but now he has to completely redo his uniforms (re-sew all of his rank and make them match due to fading, sew new rank on his blues) but all of the financial implications without receiving any additional income to do so. Is it so hard to empathize that if he is married with dependants, he may already be paycheck to paycheck as is?

The kid came here for answers, not opinions. We, as leaders in the Army, should have been better for him.

So the answer to your question. Yes, you can deny a 4187 by speaking with your chain of command. If you do so, you will likely need to have a conversation as to "why". I would be forward about legitimate concerns and personally would not cite no pay increase as the only justification. Be aware, as others have mentioned, that this may bring scrutiny on you and change the opinion your leaders have about you. So yes, you can....but consider it thoroughly and prepare yourself accordingly.

Response by COL Mo Fenner made Aug 1 at 2022 12:50 PM

2022-08-01T12:50:51-04:00

I have always said and counseled my son to always take the harder job when the opportunity presented itself. I took 05 command as an 04 and 06 command as an 05. I made O6 so it must have worked. My son made E6 in six years and PSG as a junior E6. Any career should provide advancement. If you are not looking for advancement in the Army, maybe you are in the wrong career. If I was your Platton Leader, you would stay E4 for a long time if you declined CPL.

Response by SGM Kenneth Hinckley made Aug 1 at 2022 4:11 PM

2022-08-01T16:11:52-04:00

Darn well said!

Response by SGM Kenneth Hinckley made Aug 1 at 2022 4:14 PM

2022-08-01T16:14:05-04:00

I recommend you never think this way again, and, deny as best you can, ever asking such a question.

Response by SSG Douglas Shaffer made Aug 2 at 2022 8:45 PM

2022-08-02T20:45:12-04:00

You should think about this, you can be required to work one position up from you pay grade, if a few more depending on the situation as an E-5 I have worked as Bn. Staff Duty and as an E-6 as Bde. Staff Duty, Yeah, I got busted however I was still trusted to perform those positions as an E-5, and did, I have held a duty position of an E-7 as an E-6 and I didn't get paid for it! It comes with the territory of being an NCO and not a Sergeant. Sergeant writes up counselling statements and requirement for Art. 15s, NCOs burn the midnight oil retraining their personnel in the short comings even if it cuts into your time. Why because when you look left at your section or squad those are the people you are going to go with combat today! Pen pushing isn't training, and this sounds like you want to be a pen pusher and not an NCO prove me wrong.

Response by PO2 Lawrence Moody made Aug 2 at 2022 8:52 PM

2022-08-02T20:52:05-04:00

I wasn't in the Army. I have no real worthy comment, I always kind of thought an Army Corporal was a Sgt that got busted, everyone else is a Spec 4. I can only imagine that your company may not have a billet opening, or that you do not have enough time in pay rate, but that you show leadership quality and that they want to help you develop that and prepare you for fast track to Sgt. Don't shoot your foot off despite your face.
The Navy and may give a PO3 watch boss status on individual basis's
The Marine Corps still has the rank of Corporal.
The Air Force no longer considers the pay rate of E-4 as an NCO
The do not like Warrant Officers either.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2022 9:56 PM

2022-08-02T21:56:13-04:00

ETS

Response by CPL Matthew Hurtt made Aug 3 at 2022 9:50 AM

2022-08-03T09:50:40-04:00

This is truly a ridiculous post soldier. Can you decline? Sure, go ahead and decline. Have fun with that. Let your leaders know exactly what kind of soldier you are.

Furthermore I will say this- go read the Warriors Creed, and then the NCO Creed. If there are further questions- you may need to reconsider your life / career choices.

Response by PO1 Timothy Organ made Aug 11 at 2022 11:35 AM

2022-08-11T11:35:27-04:00

This makes no sense. First off I see Sgt in your profile, so either there's some kind of glitch there or my army ranks memory has failed me in some way. You say you're getting meritoriously promoted to Cpl so now I'm perplexed. Second, if you have been selected in this way due to a board, which you participated in then there is a level of confidence and trust in your abilities, which is expressly detailed in your promotion warrant, then it would be foolish to even explore this possibility. You're telling all those people who put that much confidence into your abilities you don't value their assessment of you. This should have been sorted out before you went to the board. Last, this is a thing again this should have been explained to you during this process by an NCO before you went to the board. Albeit, it is part of the step to get you into the NCO ranks, it is done this way because you passed the board, you have to wait till the regular pay cycle takes effect for your promotion, otherwise it would be set up along a routine method, you'd be getting paid in kind. Your leaders want you to lead, they feel you have that ability and they are confident you'll do well by it, prove they are not wrong, and stop doubting yourself! Especially if your going to Ranger School too? Soak it in this is a chance of a lifetime!

Response by SFC R. Lee Linebarger made Sep 3 at 2022 1:29 AM

2022-09-03T01:29:52-04:00

If thatbis how you view it, from a pay point of view, finish your contract and find another line of work.

If you truly enjoy Soldiering, take the promotion, be a leader and lead. Being a leader sometimes involves sacrifice. Take it or leave it, but there it is.

Response by SPC Phil Norton made Sep 3 at 2022 11:01 AM

2022-09-03T11:01:24-04:00

It’s CPL that classification won’t even follow you to your next duty station. It’s an honorary NCO rank take the stripes and suck it up. The lower ranking soldiers won’t listen to you anyway and lord help you when you try to mess with that spec 4 that can recite the UMCJ. Why ruin your career over this classification of rank CPL. does not outrank Spec4 that’s why there is no pa y raise.

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made Sep 3 at 2022 11:08 PM

2022-09-03T23:08:58-04:00

SURE:...... Become a Civilian.
Some Of Them Love Being A FLUNKY Too.
So, You're Not Alone.. Grab A Mop.!

Response by SN Michael Smith made Sep 4 at 2022 10:42 AM

2022-09-04T10:42:51-04:00

Is this question about you or someone else? Your icon lists SGT which last I knew was a higher rank than CPL, yet in your question, you list yourself as a SPC.

Are you a SPC that just passed your board to CPL or are you a SGT?

Response by MAJ Hugh Blanchard made Sep 5 at 2022 1:36 PM

2022-09-05T13:36:46-04:00

If you are more worried about the $ than doing the best you can as a soldier, perhaps you should consider another line of work. It's not about a pay scale. No one should volunteer to serve in hopes of getting rich.

Response by SGT Patrick Sullivan made Sep 6 at 2022 12:13 PM

2022-09-06T12:13:25-04:00

You will likely be the only NCO at BLC. I was promoted to Corporal 2 weeks before I attended PNCOC. I was the only hard stripe E-4, there, out of 60 soldiers, and was made an example of, every day. So, get your feces together, and understand the pressure is going to be on you.

You don't really want to decline. You may never get another chance.
The school cadre will be focusing/testing your leadership skills.
That falls in with "Lead by example". It will be tough getting used to having a little authority.
even though it doesn't matter much in school where everyone is treated equally.
Stand tall ! Learn from your mistakes. Don't let the authority go to your head.

Airborne Rangers !
Go get it !!!

Response by CSM Rick Cassel made Sep 6 at 2022 12:26 PM

2022-09-06T12:26:57-04:00

I am going to play devil's advocate. Many people are saying this is what an NCO does, you should take the leadership role without the pay...yada..yada...yada. How about the fact it is no more than a cost savings factor for the Army. If the Army says you can't be a Sergeant until you have graduated BLC, how can that same Army put you in a leadership position without the proper training to hold such a position? One could look at this as a way, taking care of the Army's needs without regard to troop welfare. How about reversing the role? By giving the troop the pay and benefits for the rank Sergeant while wearing CPL stripes and upon graduation of BLC he/she then pins Sergeant.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2022 2:12 PM

2022-09-06T14:12:53-04:00

Having been laterally promoted to Corporal is not a bad thing. You should not be looking at this merely for the extra pay as this means that you are actually above your peers.

Personally if someone that was under my leadership was being recommended for this lateral it was because the leadership that he or she served under felt that it was the right thing to do considering several things such as awaiting schools for Professional Development.

In addition, by having this lateral promotion will afford you the opportunity to be in leadership roles, receive evaluations that are based on your leadership potential .
You should never turn down any promotion at any rank as if the system is working correctly you should only be promoted when you meet all the requirements and also have the merit to have that next rank.
.The only exception might be if you are the point that you are ready to ETS or retire and do not want to take that promotion and commit the required time as you would be only hurting another person s opportunity that might of been willing to put in that effort.

Response by LCDR Chris Coleman made Sep 6 at 2022 3:22 PM

2022-09-06T15:22:23-04:00

I'll not bash you but I will give you a little bit of advice.
Throughout your life you will find yourself in a position to where you'll have to provide a service that's not necessarily your responsibility.

That's life son, man up and get all the knowledge you can as corporal and when the time comes for Sgt. You'll excel at that rank.
I can almost Guarantee that you'll be the 1st on the promotion list just because of your knowledge and work ethics..

Response by CPL Sheila Lewis made Sep 6 at 2022 5:27 PM

2022-09-06T17:27:55-04:00

Take this opportunity!

Response by CPL Sheila Lewis made Sep 6 at 2022 5:28 PM

2022-09-06T17:28:25-04:00

I wasn't offered that at all!

Response by MSgt Robert E. M. made Sep 7 at 2022 10:23 AM

2022-09-07T10:23:00-04:00

Who better to know than you! It's not about the money. Thanks my brother, you have shown good leadership and you are a great ranger.

Response by SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM made Sep 7 at 2022 2:45 PM

2022-09-07T14:45:13-04:00

What is your problem with th

Response by A1C Diane Phillips made Sep 7 at 2022 7:31 PM

2022-09-07T19:31:45-04:00

Completely agree if you are in it for the money you don't belong being a supervisor over anybody!

Response by PO2 Alexander Gonzalez made Sep 7 at 2022 10:47 PM

2022-09-07T22:47:25-04:00

WTF OVER! Who turns down a promotion?

Response by SFC Howard Holmes made Sep 15 at 2022 1:23 AM

2022-09-15T01:23:31-04:00

Hmmmm, and with that attitude you are going to try and be a Ranger? You must play the game really well, or there are quotas, because I believe you have not a single idea of what being a Ranger is about. I recommend you turn down the Ranger School. You do realize that the one army value is SELFLESSNESS and NOT Selfishness don't you?

Response by SGT Jerry Palmer made Sep 16 at 2022 12:40 PM

2022-09-16T12:40:35-04:00

Huh, hell no. An u wanna be a ranger? How about you adapt and overcome and deal with it. Unless you just don’t wanna lead, then u have no business trying to go to ranger school with some BS like that. Embrace The Suck!

Response by PO3 Pamala McBrayer made Oct 2 at 2022 2:41 PM

2022-10-02T14:41:42-04:00

I suppose you could…but why would the Army want to keep people who are unwilling to master a skillset, being proficient to lead, but refusing to lead? Professional development is a ladder. If you are unable or unwilling to climb, retention becomes an issue. The same is true for GS government workers. There us a built in expectation of training, advancement, leading, training, advancement, leading others. It is a necessary policy to ensure the stability of the organization and mission readiness. Slack not or find the exit.

Response by SGT Ruben Lozada made Oct 3 at 2022 9:30 AM

2022-10-03T09:30:33-04:00

Excellent question SGT Harrison. I'm going to agree with Chief Carroll. He had an excellent response. I'm sure that BLC (Formerly WLC) is still a requirement to be promoted to SGT. You should feel honored to be promoted to CPL. As CPL is a the first stepping stone as becoming an NCO and a TL as well. It shouldn't be about the pay, it should be about becoming a great NCO and TL. I recall switching branches from Navy to Army and having to learn about the Army. Also having the opportunity to get promoted to CPL and having to attend WLC before I got promoted to SGT. I didn't care about the CPL pay, the the opportunity to mentor those within My squad or unit, because mist of the time a Soldier within Your squad or unit will come to You first for guidance.

Response by SSG Tony Basile made Oct 3 at 2022 11:31 AM

2022-10-03T11:31:09-04:00

It doesn’t look good and it says that the Soldier isn’t ready to take the responsibility of being a Leader regardless of pay. All E4s in the USMC are NCOs. There are no Specialists.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 3 at 2022 4:47 PM

2022-10-03T16:47:04-04:00

...... seeing it's an old post that got revived...

Response by SPC Steven Nihipali made Oct 5 at 2022 7:45 AM

2022-10-05T07:45:01-04:00

Yes, yes you can. I agree... don't get all the responsibility and bullshit without getting the money. The marines at least do it right. They'll fuck you first and still give you $20. The Army doesn't even spit before they turn you around.

I had Corporal in Iraq, and they were stupid. Why not just promote? That's the question.Spc can do the same damn job without the rank confusion.

Response by SSG Martin Fruchtl made Oct 12 at 2022 7:39 PM

2022-10-12T19:39:42-04:00

I was an Specialist in a SGT slot in the USAR. I had the MOS and other quals for the E5 but had to wait for the board to roll around to get promoted. The Command made me what used to be called an "acting Jack", an E5 with the stripes but not the pay until the board season rolled around. It was a privilege to be recognized early for the work I was doing. Don't pass up the opportunity to show what you can do. If you perform, your NCOER should reflect it.

Response by CPT James Burkholder made Oct 13 at 2022 5:49 PM

2022-10-13T17:49:42-04:00

As an officer commissioned merely because of my education I should probably not respond but I shall anyway. Everyone in the military is assigned a duty and responsibility. From what I saw most of the time the people assigned were to one step above the TOE. I was a CPT, Army. I was assigned to command a company. I did so. After my tour was up I was replaced by a major; the TOE called for a major. I think you should be proud to be given the responsibility of rank above that which you actually hold. Your concern about being paid for the hours is more fitted to the civilian work place.

Response by CPT James Burkholder made Oct 13 at 2022 6:00 PM

2022-10-13T18:00:20-04:00

As an officer I should not respond but I can't help myself. I was commissioned a CPT, Army based on my education. After maybe 6 months service I was assigned to command a company. TOE called for a major - - sounded like a big deal to me. Many of the Battalion officers were in positions that technically called for rank one above them. I tried my best and I guess it was enough to satisfy my superiors. Upon the end of my tour I was replaced by a major; I guess they had more available. For me it was an honor to have been given the responsibility that I had; maybe another could have done better but it was for me to do it. Your concern about being paid specifically for the hours belongs more in the civilian workplace but don't count on actually being paid by the hour there unless you want to stay in a lower level position. Corporations aren't all that different, they just hide things better than the military.

Response by SGT Angel Sotosuarez made Oct 14 at 2022 12:18 AM

2022-10-14T00:18:06-04:00

Honestly I think that the SPC rank has no purpose anymore. It is an outdated rank that started during WWII, and as they stopped promoting soldiers to SP7, SP6 and SP5 after the "Vietnam" era, the same must happen to the SPC (aka E-4 mafia). The rank is like a senior private, and has no resposabilities as corporals have. That action also will stop the controversial lateral appointment from SPC to CPL, and will stop the whining about the NCO responsibilties with the same pay as the SPC's.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 14 at 2022 11:21 AM

2022-10-14T11:21:30-04:00

Have things changed in the pay scale I thought corporals make the same as a SP/4 or have I been out too long lol

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 14 at 2022 4:25 PM

2022-10-14T16:25:54-04:00

I suppose you can, but do you want to be a SPC forever? Take the promotion or commit career suicide by refusing it.

Response by LCDR Gordon Brown made Oct 14 at 2022 11:30 PM

2022-10-14T23:30:28-04:00

I was an E-4 MM3 and qualified as a MM TOPWATCH which means I was incharge of the engine room on an aircraft carrier for 12 hours every day. That position is an E-5 and above position. There were E-5 and E-6 personnel that took the extra pay and chevron just NOT the extra responsibility. If you don't want the promotion without the $, you do NOT deserve the promotion and should remain a PFC forever.

Response by CPL Justin Groth made Oct 15 at 2022 10:37 AM

2022-10-15T10:37:30-04:00

As a former Corporal, I’m puzzled by your question. Can you decline the 4187? Yes, should you? No. I wore these stripes with pride, training up young soldiers, being an effective NCO within my company. By doing so, I earned the respect of not only my squad, but other NCO’s and officers in the company and battalion. This is a great opportunity for you, don’t blow it! If you don’t want to pin the stripes, why did you go to the board?

Response by SFC John Fourquet made Oct 15 at 2022 11:58 AM

2022-10-15T11:58:30-04:00

You should bee removed from the promotion list and denied leaderships schools if you do not want to take the responsibility of a leader. From what you said you just want the money that comes with promotion, not the responsibility.

Response by SFC John Fourquet made Oct 15 at 2022 12:06 PM

2022-10-15T12:06:45-04:00

You should be removed from the promotion list and denied leadership schools if you do not want to take the responsibility of a leader. It seems your motivation be promoted is more about money and not taking on any type of leadership responsibilities.

Sgt Josh H are you a sergeant or a specialist? If you have not been promoted why do you list your rank as sergeant in your post about declining lateral promotion to corporal?

Response by SGT Juan Robledo made Oct 15 at 2022 12:27 PM

2022-10-15T12:27:52-04:00

Why would you DECLINE, apparently your Platoon Sgt and your Command see the your potential, by declining you leave yourself wide open for criticism and speculation, if you're not ready, let your Command know, but if it's because you won't be chums with your buddies then Think again, it's time to be a RESPONSIBLE soldier and lead your squad

Response by SPC S Meeder made Oct 15 at 2022 12:37 PM

2022-10-15T12:37:12-04:00

Smells like bitch in here.

Response by SFC John Fourquet made Oct 15 at 2022 4:39 PM

2022-10-15T16:39:54-04:00

YOu should be remove from the promotion list and denied the opportunity to attend any leadership school if you refuse to accept the responsibility of an NCO.

You made this post as “Sgt Josh H”. It seems you want the benefits of being an NCO without taking any of the responsibilities that come with the rank. As far as pay goes, both corporal and specialist are E4, so you are not being asked to do something you are not being paid for.

Response by 1stSgt John Harrison made Oct 15 at 2022 9:58 PM

2022-10-15T21:58:23-04:00

Take the corporal, or face some serious consequences, with the current drawdown your career is in jeopardy. During my time in service I was acting sgt as a pvt. E-5 in 18 months, in a platoon leadership position for 6months,then PCS Stateside.

Response by Cpl Ronald Peters made Oct 16 at 2022 3:42 AM

2022-10-16T03:42:34-04:00

Lead, Follow, or get the hell out of the way!

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made Oct 16 at 2022 7:46 AM

2022-10-16T07:46:13-04:00

The second you do that, you can kiss any chance of getting promoted to Sergeant good-bye. Understand this, although being promoted to Corporal is a lateral promotion, and the pay is the same as a SPC, being a Corporal is being an NCO. Refusing to be promoted to Corporal will tell your SGM you're incapable of handling the responsibility of a Non Commission Officer.

Response by LCpl Jeff Moore made Oct 16 at 2022 9:27 AM

2022-10-16T09:27:12-04:00

Isn't a spc and a cpl in the army both E4s and thus paid the same?

Response by SPC Vonnie Jones made Oct 16 at 2022 4:25 PM

2022-10-16T16:25:58-04:00

I posted before finishing, I was about to say out side of the military you are often told/asked to do things you are not hired/paid for. I when I was in I often was in charge without having rank. When that happens it's called being mission oriented. Don't think that what's on your cullor makes you a leader. True leadership comes from the desire to get the job done. If you don't want the promotion now when will you want it? I don't think you should turn it down the chance may not come again.

Response by CMDCM John F. "Doc" Bradshaw made Oct 16 at 2022 9:55 PM

2022-10-16T21:55:38-04:00

I agree with CW2 Carroll, if I was your BN CSM, you wouldn’t have to be asking this question! You don’t have to be THE Leader to Lead. In my opinion, bad choice to even question this. Advancements are almost Alway Earned. This should go into your permanent records so by the the time you are Mature Enough to Take Charge or Command, you’ll be ready. The Military is ALL about Team Work and Consistent Achievements!!! Leading By Example, even at lower ratings!!! Take Charge or get out of the way or get out. Sincerely but Respectfully Submitted! Doc

Response by SSG Debra Lindstrom made Oct 17 at 2022 8:01 PM

2022-10-17T20:01:09-04:00

Accept the promotion.

Response by PO2 Henry Kaczmarek made Oct 17 at 2022 11:27 PM

2022-10-17T23:27:05-04:00

If being paid for your responsibility is what you expect, you joined the wrong outfit.
My first military mistake was when I refused to be a recruit Petty Officer in Boot Camp. Paid dearly for that mistake for 2 more months.
The Core Values of the military should make you realize what you do has damn little to do with the paycheck. If this bothers you of course, by all means go to your CSM and tell him you're not interested. You may make it out of the Army before the end of your contract, but most definitely at the end of it. You'll likely not be recommended for re-enlistment.
If you've seen the movie GLORY, you'll remember when Morgan Freeman got his stripes as BN SGT Major. He told his Colonel "I'm not sure I'm wanting this, sir." And his Colonel replied "I know exactly how you feel".
Get used to it, or get out.

Response by PO3 Bobby Quisenberry made Oct 18 at 2022 9:42 AM

2022-10-18T09:42:43-04:00

It would be a bad career move if you don't. You know this will go into your record! The military is not about you, it is about the military and what they want. It can be a fiercum beast and not your friend, especially for non-compliants. One bad move may follow you as long as you are in!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2022 12:14 AM

2022-10-19T00:14:43-04:00

It's not a promotion, it's a lateral appointment. But you should take it. I was appointed to corporal and it allowed me to learn a lot more responsibility than my peers. Sure, it sucked not getting paid as much as the SSG's that I shared taskings with but trust me, if you are in it for the long haul, it will make you a better leader. You will be a member of the NCO Corps and you will treated as such, so act like it (and not an E-4). Just my 2 cents.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2022 6:20 PM

2022-10-19T18:20:51-04:00

You can deny it...as well as most likely not making SGT when the position is open. I know I wouldnt recommend a SPC that turned down CPL for a SGT position. Most likely would go to the back of the promotable line.

Response by CWO3 Robert Fong made Oct 20 at 2022 8:22 AM

2022-10-20T08:22:30-04:00

SGT, in the Coast Guard we constantly ask our people if they are going to make rate (rank). Why, because we need good people who will and are good leaders and teachers. During combat folks are often asked to take advanced leadership positions without additional compensation. In peacetime folks go through the normal movement up the chain. Frankly, I would not want a Petty Officer in my command whose only motivation is money. In an Armed Force money motivation is secondary to promotion. What promotion is all about is recognition of a person's capabilities and leadership skills along with the ability to teach those skills. When our people make E-7 Chief Petty Officer they recognize that the officers and enlisted often say, "Ask the Chief." when they are in a quandary. Got it?

Response by Sgt Ed Allen made Oct 20 at 2022 6:22 PM

2022-10-20T18:22:22-04:00

If you want to be a Sargeant, then be a Corporal. And be the best damned Corporal that you can possibly be. If you don't want to be a Corporal, then don't EVER whine about not being made a Sargeant. You don't deserve it.

Response by Sgt Jake Middlebrook made Nov 4 at 2022 7:17 PM

2022-11-04T19:17:53-04:00

It takes all kinds my Dad served in the 1930s in the last horse drawn artillery outfit in the US Army. His gun captain was a PFC Master Gunner and saddler who was qualified in many ways to be a Staff Sargent. He refused any promotion above PFC. The battery Commander said alright you can be a PFC but you are qualified to be a gun captain and I can't waste a man with your qualifications. The moral of the story is your officers can assign you the job rank or not.

Response by COL Brian Shea made Nov 15 at 2022 3:17 PM

2022-11-15T15:17:44-05:00

I think if you inform your chain of command that you don't want to assume a position of greater responsibility they will remedy the situation.

Response by MGySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2022 11:50 AM

2022-11-16T11:50:09-05:00

Wow! Just..... Wow!

Response by SSG Brian Pyle made Nov 16 at 2022 5:59 PM

2022-11-16T17:59:06-05:00

Chief Carroll is on point. I was a SPC, CPL, and eventually an SGT Squad Leader. I was an SSG platoon Sergeant. I was a temporary 1SG as an SSG for over a year. I never once thought about the money. I was proud that my leadership had so much confidence in my abilities and that I had the opportunity to teach, mentor and lead soldiers. If you went into the military for the money, you probably went in for the wrong reasons. You went in and you're doing well so I applaud you, just try to see the bigger picture. Turning down a 4187, which I have never witnessed before, I believe could potentially be a career ender, or at the very least cast a shadow over all that you have accomplished so far. Stay focused drive on and take pride in the fact that your leadership has trust in your abilities!

Response by SSG Eric Blue made Nov 16 at 2022 9:00 PM

2022-11-16T21:00:43-05:00

I understand that it would suck to have leadership responsibilities and not have your paycheck reflect it. At various times in my career, I was doing SFC and MSG duties as a SGT. And I didn't complain because of the awesomeness I had with the duty positions. In the military, there will be MANY TIMES you're "working above your pay grade." My suggestion is DON'T STOP DOING THAT! My situation SUCKED where I couldn't get promoted in a timely manner in spite of working above my pay grade continuously, but it will build you up for the long run. Maybe not for your tour of duty in the Army, but you won't be Army forever and it will look good when it's your time to transition to something else! Moreover, don't shirk the responsibilities because THEN they'll put some other asshat in that slot that isn't as smart or trustworthy as you may be. AND THAT ALONE may make an element non-mission capable. Good luck, Airborne.

Response by SSG Robbie Douglas made Nov 17 at 2022 12:47 PM

2022-11-17T12:47:13-05:00

As being offered an NCO position is to most a very boost in a person’s way of moving up to better jobs in the military. I went from E-2 to Staff Sgt in 5 years and that was hard back in the late 70’s and early 80’s and as an E4 not a corporal yet had being the lieutenant on our artap mission for 3 days. Didn’t even cross my mind of pay I was doing the job that my unit ask me to do and that’s where the CSM and the battalion commander started my fast track. The CSM said it was one of the best artap’s he had seen in years. If I was the CSM and see this being posted I’d postpone any promotion for awhile until we could make sure that you are ready to lead troops

Response by SPC Jeffery Howard made Nov 17 at 2022 1:35 PM

2022-11-17T13:35:42-05:00

Hell even myself I can say as a PFC I did duties that were SPC rating, and even some SGT duties. I did not get any pay raise. When I was SPC I did duties that were SGT and even higher it is called doing a job with out expecting a pay increase. But you know what that’s life as a Solider.

Response by SP6 Peter Kreutzfeldt made Nov 20 at 2022 12:33 PM

2022-11-20T12:33:22-05:00

You need to leave the military, you do not represent anything I would want to serve with

Response by CPL Steve Hubbard made Nov 21 at 2022 2:44 AM

2022-11-21T02:44:55-05:00

You should totally take it. Do not take the rank of corporal because you’re a homo and you don’t deserve it.

Response by CPL Steve Hubbard made Nov 21 at 2022 2:51 AM

2022-11-21T02:51:04-05:00

Response by CPL Ray Kahler made Dec 7 at 2022 9:45 AM

2022-12-07T09:45:33-05:00

The more responsibility you have, the more your “stock” is worth.

Response by SGT Matthew Brodycz made Dec 14 at 2022 10:04 PM

2022-12-14T22:04:19-05:00

PLDC or BLC, as it is known now, is not a terribly difficult course to pass. The school the CW2 below this post went to - that's a difficult course. Many lifer's will tell you to do the school, take the lateral promotion, and enter into being a Sergeant in a very strong way - better off than many peers who could not come this way. If you have not ruled out a career in the military - consider removing this post and accepting CPL. If you have, then yes - you can deny the lateral promotion. The 4187 is a request, usually from the soldier or for the soldier at the behest of the chain of command. Yes you can deny it, but again, a lateral promotion to CPL is considered a a positive thing, so you will probably get some odd looks. Turning down CPL will set a precedent for you as a solder that will be very difficult for you to overcome - should you change your mind down the road. If you turn down CPL and do plan to stay in the Army - consider working on ways to explain that choice down the road - it will come up sooner of later.

Response by MSgt Craig Gauger made Dec 14 at 2022 10:14 PM

2022-12-14T22:14:50-05:00

Turning down a promotion is like shooting yourself in the foot. Do you want a dead-end job? Go back home and find one. You passed your requirements, they approved promotion, now get out there and do your job!

Response by SFC Rodrick Carter made Dec 15 at 2022 10:20 AM

2022-12-15T10:20:29-05:00

If you are more concerned about the pay versus leading Soldiers then you are in the wrong profession. I was honored with each position I was deemed worthy to fill. You don't obtain a driver's license then learn how to drive as you must first demonstrate that you can.

Response by CMSgt Lloyd French made Dec 15 at 2022 4:26 PM

2022-12-15T16:26:33-05:00

In the military--and industry for that matter--we PRAISE good performance, but we PROMOTE demonstrated "potential" ... meaning you should show us what ELSE you can do besides your everyday good job. Senior Leaders recognize that quality in your performance reports and a HISTORY of going the extra mile when there's nothing in it for you is VERY telling. Man up.

Response by TSgt G Daniel Carson made Dec 16 at 2022 7:09 PM

2022-12-16T19:09:23-05:00

What's more important being a Ranger or getting paid right away. If I was your age; knowing that when I got back from ranger school I would be promoted, I would not even think about it.

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made Dec 17 at 2022 2:55 AM

2022-12-17T02:55:27-05:00

GREAT Way To Jump Right Into A Leadership Role & The Promotions That Go Along With Them.....
REFUSE A Promotion And Related Responsibilities Too,.....
YUP, That'll Do The Trick.....
Good Luck, Fother Mucker !! ~ Yo Ho Ho !!

Response by SGT Christopher Sigafoos made Dec 17 at 2022 3:08 PM

2022-12-17T15:08:46-05:00

Denying a promotion is, essentially, killing your carreer.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 17 at 2022 3:22 PM

2022-12-17T15:22:09-05:00

Of course you can decline but consider how this decision will affect how you are viewed. Do you want to be viewed as a person having no “esprit de corps”? Will seniors viewing you in this light affect your upcoming evaluations that can affect future promotion points?

You are coming across as someone who doesn’t want to accept responsibility in an organization that is about Duty and Responsibility. If you seriously don’t want to accept responsibility maybe Wall Street might be a better place to work.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 17 at 2022 3:59 PM

2022-12-17T15:59:43-05:00

This shows an amazing lack af maturity.
You don't want responsibility until you get paid for it?
Nope! That's a lie.
You don't want responsibility.
I would go to your commander and have them remove you from consideration (were I the CSM, like the first response), and recommend that you were non-rec'ed for the next year.
This is not just immature, it is ignorant. That is how the process works! Sometimes you get the school first, sometimes you don't! Tough s&%$. When you went up for promotion, this policy was known! The STEP program has been around for a while!

Also...check if you can just get promoted with a school reservation.
If you can't, suck it up and ask to walk on now.
If you can...either you didn't pay attention, or your unit is failing you. Act accordingly.

Response by CPL Frederick Michel made Dec 18 at 2022 5:42 PM

2022-12-18T17:42:16-05:00

You better stary in the Army brother, the civilian side is worse when it comes to adding responsibilities and duties to people WITHOUT promotion or add pay. You will encounter times when your boss/commander will expect you to manage, supervisor and/or direct without reward of any kind. Take pride in what you do and do it to the best of your ability.

Response by PO3 Dale Olson made Dec 18 at 2022 7:22 PM

2022-12-18T19:22:39-05:00

You want to be a NCO.... Now is the time to show them what your made of. It's time to step up to the plate.
I took ever school that was offered to when I was in. I was the only qualified Forward Observer on the ship as none of the other E4's or E5's want to spen a week with Marines and eat C rations.
OBTW - my ship did gun line duty in Vietnam.

Response by SGT Wayne Grindstaff made Dec 18 at 2022 9:07 PM

2022-12-18T21:07:40-05:00

I will not comment on your question as the Army must have sure changed in the last 50 years. When I was in the only CPL you saw was a SGT that got busted down as we were all SPC on the way up. But I do remember a real plus to being a CPL, you were considered an NCO and didn't have to pull KP or other duties that non NCOs had. As was pointed out by others being we lost so many to wounded and KIA I was a few ranks higher in responsibility at times, just part of being a team.

Response by MSG Erinn W. made Dec 19 at 2022 12:14 AM

2022-12-19T00:14:08-05:00

If I can just get past the headgear...my advice is simple: never, ever decline an opportunity for advancement or responsibility. You should actually SEEK more responsibility. You should conduct yourself as if you're the next higher rank at all times. Demonstrate that you deserve what you're asking for. It will pay off more in the long run...that is, unless that's not your goal. Then disregard my statement. Also, unless you've made the correction since then, I highly encourage you to refer to 670-1 regarding your headgear.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2022 6:41 AM

2022-12-19T06:41:34-05:00

CPL's are NCO's. SP4's are not. Their expectations of you are valid. If I were on the board and you refused CPL, you wouldn't make SGT. Everything doesn't revolve around you, the Army has its needs. CPL is a rare rank, and a compliment.

Response by SFC Frederick Dalton made Dec 19 at 2022 8:00 AM

2022-12-19T08:00:12-05:00

Decline it. Then finish out your remaining enlistment, ETS as a SPC and walk away. You’re obviously not NCO material.

Response by CWO4 Tim Hecht made Dec 19 at 2022 9:24 AM

2022-12-19T09:24:19-05:00

At the 20 year mark with 1-1/2 years as a Chief Petty Officer in the Coast Guard I knew when I was going to make CWO2 the decision was easy. It was about the $400 more a month in base pay and retirement numbers!

Do not turn down a promotion selection board. One reason is the money and the other is the selection board recognized your

Regards,
CWO4 USCG, Ret

Response by SFC James High made Dec 21 at 2022 8:57 AM

2022-12-21T08:57:21-05:00

You can decline anything you want, but it would make you non-promotable and if I was in your chain of command I would have you discharged! You would not be a team leader with that kind of attitude, as a matter of fact, you wouldn't even make a good team member!!!

Response by PVT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2022 4:55 PM

2022-12-22T16:55:11-05:00

While it is not ideally a wise decision. You have a point. A SPC is of equal grade and pay to a CPL. The transition is merely a lateral move with little to no value. Other senior leaders will tell you that they wpuld remove you from consideration. I would ask those senior leaders to STFU. Why? I can provide example after example of police calls, mowing, mopping and a plethora of other shit they make subordinates do that is neither tied to rank or MOS duty description. The base spends Millions of dollars for a public works department and therefore, the unit leadership need to call that office to get the mowing and general beautification done, because THAT is what they are paid for.
I digress, it would not be wise to decline it. But a promotion with caveats is not a promotion. You have a very difficult decision to make and your leaders should consider the HUMAN aspect of things over their self loathing on what they think the promotion system should be.

Response by SFC James Cortez made Dec 24 at 2022 11:22 AM

2022-12-24T11:22:40-05:00

Did the Army stop teaching the core value: "SELFLESS SERVICE"? Or has the Army gone fully WOKE CRT "SELFISH" service?

Response by SSG John Naquin made Dec 24 at 2022 3:53 PM

2022-12-24T15:53:31-05:00

Back in the early 2000's yes, now a days no. Read the regulation containing promotions

Response by MAJ Tex Hall made Jan 8 at 2023 11:07 PM

2023-01-08T23:07:08-05:00

Joshy,
You don't need to go to Ranger school, Bitch.
There. How's that for a succinct reply.

Response by SGT John C. made Jan 12 at 2023 10:16 PM

2023-01-12T22:16:09-05:00

in 1976, I was less than 30 days to getting out and PCS to Inactive. My CSM told me that the only reason for the promotion to SGT, was because I was SHORT. They were trying to get me to stay in. This kind of pissed me off because they could have done this a lot earlier, but they didn't. Since we were already beyond the end of Vietnam (May 1975), I told the CSM to give it to someone who would be there a while longer. My Top Kick was laughing when I reported to his office. He knew I was getting out to go to School so he made my last month a pleasure to be in a Combat Infantry unit. I left the end of July 1976, and did go to school. Became an Electronic Tech in 1984, and was able to retire from that almost 9 years ago. Worked for 50+ years so I don't have to now.

Response by SFC Dan Sorrow, M.S. made Jan 23 at 2023 6:52 AM

2023-01-23T06:52:00-05:00

You might, but you might as well go ahead and sign a bar to reenlistment while you’re at it. Many of us served in positions above our pay grade. If you’re in the Army for the pay only, time to find something else to do. Corporals used to be the most bad asses in the unit. Accept the responsibility and make a difference.

Response by SSG Ronald Colwell made Jan 23 at 2023 6:46 PM

2023-01-23T18:46:01-05:00

I about dropped dead after reading this. While I tend to disagree for any reason why you would want to decline the lateral promotion. I’ve been retired for 10th as now, is this what the soldiers do now, bitch when they aren’t being promote and when they get the opportunity for more leadership roles then bitch about it. Dude, if I were your Brigade CSM or Battalion and heard this, I would pull your promotion status and let you keep on being a dirtbag.

Response by CPL Cadrew Strickland made Jan 24 at 2023 1:31 PM

2023-01-24T13:31:45-05:00

At some point in the military you will be some sort of leader. You may not get the pay at first, but usually you are doing the job before the promotion. And you ever is over you sees that you are a leader and try’s to get you promoted. But if you aren’t doing the job now why would they want to promote someone who doesn’t have leadership skills.

Response by SGT M H made Jan 24 at 2023 8:34 PM

2023-01-24T20:34:48-05:00

Let me tell you I griped about becoming an NCO before I did it. But it took me getting the stripes to figure out I was already doing the SGT shit as a SPC. The only difference was, I got an NCOER that said I did it. As a SPC you're lucky to get a counseling saying you did anything at all, much less anything good.

Point being, if there's something to be done, go do it. Yeah the pay is nice, but Army doesn't promote based on skill, they promote on potential. Show them you have that potential and you'll go far.

And if you're going to ranger school, take your damn promotion to CPL and shut up. What i would have done for my unit to send me like i asked. You'll pick up your 5 fast.

Response by SGT Shaun James made Jan 25 at 2023 1:58 PM

2023-01-25T13:58:07-05:00

I would take any promotion to get Advancement. I was always held back because of job or current slot in the National Guard. Being in a Support or mot support role to the Ranger or Special Forces Group.

Response by MSG Rick Vanwhy made Jan 25 at 2023 11:05 PM

2023-01-25T23:05:46-05:00

The new Army, got to love it. I can’t believe someone would actually ask this question. If I were the 1SG you wouldn’t get the TL spot and you would for along while, this is just crazy

Response by SPC David Elzinga made Jan 26 at 2023 2:47 AM

2023-01-26T02:47:59-05:00

Why would your leadership sent you to something like Ranger school of you don’t want to take on leadership role

Response by MAJ Mike Middleton made Jan 26 at 2023 11:08 AM

2023-01-26T11:08:57-05:00

If I was in your chain of command: yes, I would let you decline it, but would also do my best to see that you didn't get promoted to SGT.

Response by SSgt Lennard Hutchinson made Jan 26 at 2023 12:45 PM

2023-01-26T12:45:01-05:00

Todays Army

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2023 1:29 PM

2023-01-26T13:29:07-05:00

As I see you've since been promoted to SGT I'm hoping that you've accepted that sometimes you have to do more that what you're being paid for. I'm sure by now you're doing the stuff that SSG's and SFC's do. Good luck.

Response by CPL Ludwig Stines made Jan 26 at 2023 4:02 PM

2023-01-26T16:02:54-05:00

I would have loved to be a Corporal instead of a SPC4. Pay or no Pay !!!! I see how the generations have changed since I was in. WAA WAA WAA !!! Man up Dude!!!!

Response by SGT Martin Alvarez made Jan 27 at 2023 7:01 AM

2023-01-27T07:01:47-05:00

You can be in jeperdy for hitting your RCP (retention control point) based on not making the next rank in time.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2023 1:14 AM

2023-01-28T01:14:06-05:00

I feel your pain OP. Previous generations of workhorses that undervalued themselves and came from fatherless homes will try to shame you.

The compensation and duties need to match we are in 2023 not 1972.

Retention will continue to plummet as this bs continues.

Response by MSG William Hesser made Jan 29 at 2023 7:39 PM

2023-01-29T19:39:21-05:00

I was a squad leader as a PFC E-3, which was a SSG E-6 slot.
When I was promoted Sp4 and back from my tour in Nam, I was still in charge of the squad including a couple of E-5's who didn't have any combat experience/overseas experience.
Bottom line, you do the job you are assigned and qualified to do. Otherwise you need to consider getting out of the service.

Response by SPC Steven Nihipali made Jan 30 at 2023 1:45 AM

2023-01-30T01:45:54-05:00

I was the platoon mechanic as an E4... many high skilled (not) folks above me who could've done my job (again, not even close).

I had an E5 who wasn't allowed to carry his rifle, E7 who was sent home early negates his wife got pregnant and he lost it. Many other 5 n 6 who couldn't step up and even begin to read the manuals to any MRAP or brain m think to begin on how to maintain it. Not did I learn and review m recite, I did the job of my mechanics to ease up on them.

Yes you can deny and you'll still be given leadership roles.

Response by CPL T.A. Nelson made Feb 4 at 2023 8:51 PM

2023-02-04T20:51:17-05:00

As a CPL, I can say you can decline. It is not recommended if you intend to become a SGT, but if your intention is to try for Warrent Officer; talk with your chain of command - most NCOs will understand the urge to become a specialized Officer but you are going to have to do the research. Otherwise, take the CPL for it's leadership potential and be ready for tasks above your rank. I filled a SFC position, based on my experience and knowledge. The respect from your soldiers will be there but you will still have resistance from the higher ranked personnel. Think it through and do some research...

Response by MSG John T Brown made Feb 9 at 2023 10:50 AM

2023-02-09T10:50:27-05:00

OMG, ALL RANGER team members are team leaders in their own right. Right now your mind set is not ready for leadership or RANGER School. Go wipe your nose and come back when the back bone has become a little stronger.

Response by SSG Jeffrey Leake made Feb 12 at 2023 11:47 PM

2023-02-12T23:47:58-05:00

If your main concern is your pay and not your soldiers, you're not going to be worth a crap as an NCO. There's going to be few occasions during your career that you're going to be asked to do things above and below your pay grade. Do the task and voice your concerns later. Turning down CPL will have a negative affect on your future in the military. Sacrifices have to be made at times.

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made Feb 13 at 2023 2:47 AM

2023-02-13T02:47:11-05:00

What's the update?

Response by 1SG Brett Austin made Mar 3 at 2023 2:01 AM

2023-03-03T02:01:30-05:00

I'm going to bounce around with my response, but it's based off what I see visually and my own experiences. Looking at your profile, I'm a little confused...your title lists "SGT", but in your posting I believe you're a E-4(p). It's always best to have your profile match your actual status.
To answer your question, as many have, you can definitely decline the promotion, but there are a few things that stand out...your command believes your capable of doing the job (which you should be proud of), but feel that some type of schooling should be completed first, which is not uncommon. If you were my troop...you've now burned every bridge I've ever given you or planned to give you! Corporal is an "NCO", a rank that should be worn proudly! As an "NCO", what are your priorities? Accomplishing the mission and taking care of your troops! That means your troops eat first, get paid first, get to leave for home first and are highly trained most likely with assistance from YOU or directly by YOU, so they actually come home...you are the one that saves their ass! Any "leader" that demands more pay before doing a job...is not a leader, they're a lazy ass leach.
If you read this to the end...wear whatever stripes you get proudly, without request for additional pay or recognition. As your performance is recognized, you'll get the praise, you'll get the schools and the recommendations for promotion. Lastly, if you can't put your troops ahead of yourself and if you're going to ask for money before doing a job...then I recommend leaving for the civilian sector.

Response by SPC Julio R. made Mar 3 at 2023 10:35 PM

2023-03-03T22:35:01-05:00

You're freakin kidding right?! You need to quit being a chavala and accept the rank given to you.
The pay...stfu respectfully. So what Army pay is dookie anyways you still doing the grunt work.
Just you'll do it with rank on your collar. Waaaaa my mommy waaaaa....
You're seriously sounding like a blue Falcon now think of all the troops you can help or square way.

but if you're an s bag then that's probably why you gotta problem with the rank. also you like the shamptastic world I get it.
Think about it if any of your so called buddies does some s***** s*** knowing that you have that rank and putting you in a position then they're not your battle. SMOKE EM....

In closing take the rank or whatever school you need to go to come back get the 3rd stripe and STFU Roger that carry on.

Ps I woulda killed for 2 Strips feel honored. Hooah

Response by SSG Jeff Jones made Mar 4 at 2023 12:39 PM

2023-03-04T12:39:53-05:00

Why would you? I guarantee you that your Bn CSM has a long memory. Take it. The recommendation shows that the Bn's senior NCO has confidence in your leadership capabilities. Why would you throw that away?

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2023 9:31 PM

2023-03-04T21:31:30-05:00

This is what’s wrong with the military now. Most service members join and see the military as a job, not a profession of arms. People think they should be picking and choosing things that they want to do or appeal to them.

Response by SPC Daniel Brown made Mar 5 at 2023 1:17 PM

2023-03-05T13:17:11-05:00

Yes, but you would be hurting yourself by not taking on the responsibility your command believes you can handle. Don't think about the money think about your place in the Army and the men under you that you can shape in being the best at what you do and the SGT promotion will follow in do time. This will prove you deserve your promotion.

Response by PFC Edgar Mosier made Mar 5 at 2023 8:28 PM

2023-03-05T20:28:06-05:00

God bless any Man that knows his own strengths.
You know your "techs". You know your fellow BN-mates. You don't want to make life-deciding decisions.
To me, Brother, you're more of a Leader than many that outrank you.
Got room in that foxhole?

Response by SPC Eileen Keller made Mar 6 at 2023 8:29 PM

2023-03-06T20:29:02-05:00

Really? I suggest you seriously take some time and fully reconsider if a military career is really for you. Rank or no-rank, higher pay or not, a real leader steps up, especially in difficult times. If your fellow soldiers learned about this do you think they would want to follow you?

Response by MAJ Charled Rothbard made Mar 7 at 2023 12:11 AM

2023-03-07T00:11:14-05:00

Sure get all the extra responsibility and increased work load of being an NCO, but don't get compensated. Ha ha! And if you turn down the CPL or even merely suggest you don't want it, for good, logical, reasons, they'll treat you like a douche bag traitor. Rock and a hard place, my man.

Response by Sgt Neil Foster made Mar 7 at 2023 5:51 PM

2023-03-07T17:51:48-05:00

You can take my advice, or leave it. I was only on active duty for 5.5 years before breaking my neck and back in a line of duty injury, and was given a disability discharge during my second enlistment.

I've been in the civilian aerospace world since 1985, three years as a a technician, which was an hourly position and had compulsory union membership... and the last 36 years in a professional position, which is salaried and categorized as EXEMPT/Free Enterprise Personnel" (FEP) (NOT unionized).

All of the blowhards telling you that ALL civilian jobs pay for your new responsibilities were most likely hourly/union employees. Their union set very specific criteria for EVERY position, and you could only do what your job description said. Any increase in responsibilities would require a promotion/pay increase.

I also remember GIs complaining about how others would "sell their soul" or "stab you in the back" just to get a medal or commendation... WHAT THE FUCK DO THEY THINK HAPPENS IN THE CORPORATE WORLD, WHERE 'CURTAIN CLIMBERS' DO IT FOR $$$ AND MORE POWER. It is rarely the most qualified worker who becomes a manager... these promotions are usually given to the person who has no problems LYING to their subordinates and throwing them under the bus so it makes THEM look good!

While that sounds great, IT IS DECIEVING. Union pay grades frequently OVERLAP. If you get a promotion to a position with a much higher starting pay, you will get that new pay... but in most case, you will likely already within the range of your new pay grade, so you will get a 'token' pay increase.

For example, when I worked for Rockwell International on the B-1B Production Flight Test program, I was hired as a "Flight Operations Electrician" which was a Labor Grade (LG) 12. This was considered a 'journeyman' position. I applied for a promotion to a position as an "Aircraft Electronic Laboratory Technician", which was an LG-17, and the highest hourly scale in the company (and MUCH better working conditions)... because my pay as an LG-12 was already within the range of an LG-17, I was given a $0.10 per hour pay increase!

I later took a job as a customer training instructor with McDonnell Douglas. This was a "professional/engineering" position, so it was a salaried/Free Enterprise position. No union, no contract. Promotions and pay raises were based purely on your performance, not seniority. Same went for LAYOFFS. In a union position, you can be the best worker, but when layoffs come around, THEY WILL KEEP the most senior employee, even if they are totally worthless!

As a salaried employee, you were EXPECTED to put in a lot of extra effort and time... many times you were EXPECTED to 'take the lead' and do the job of a higher-level position. My pay increases as a salaried employee were ALWAYS much better than they were as a union/hourly employee, BUT I HAD TO WORK MY ASS OFF!

Additionally, after 14 years I had survived NUMEROUS layoffs, where much more senior employees were laid off.

ANYONE WHO TELLS YOU THAT THE CIVILIAN WORLD IS DIFFERENT FROM THE MILITARY IS FULL OF SHIT... As I pointed out to someone else, in most companies ONLY UNION POSITIONS pay you for every new responsibility, and that also comes with a price... Working conditions are usually MUCH less desirable, and job satisfaction is quite limited. I WOULD NEVER WORK AS AN HOURLY/UNION EMPLOYEE IF I CAN AVOID IT!

The only real difference between the military and the corporate world is that I am not subject to UCMJ and I can quit whenever I want!

Again, take my advice, or leave it... just keep in mind, for the past 43 years, I've I have worked on BOTH sides of the corporate world, for both good companies and bad companies... and in my job, I've worked extensively with everyone from new technicians, supervisors, and managers, to corporate executives, including directors, VPs and CEOs

Response by SSG Bill Moore made Mar 7 at 2023 8:44 PM

2023-03-07T20:44:22-05:00

I was laterally promoted from Specialist to Corporal during my career. I personally think it is one of the most kick ass ranks in the Army. It showed me that my superiors acknowledged and had faith in my capabilities. I became a squad leader of a Vulcan ADA system ahead of some E-6's.

Response by PO1 David Kingsley made Mar 9 at 2023 5:19 PM

2023-03-09T17:19:56-05:00

a Classic response is,
"If You are offered a Promotion and you refuse it, then the odds of getting offered another promotion goes down, since they will believe you when you tell them you don't want to be promoted"

Response by SGT Joseph Stephany made Mar 27 at 2023 3:56 PM

2023-03-27T15:56:41-04:00

Take the rank and do the job. That's leadership. The money will come in time but your response is
what people and troops around you will remember. I held E3 and E4 in a E5 slot and the same as a E5 sitting in a E6 slot for 2 years. I just did the job.

Response by SFC Terry Bryant made May 8 at 2023 10:48 AM

2023-05-08T10:48:15-04:00

In my career of 32 years I turned down a total of 12 promotions. I put the unit I wanted to stay in ahead of being promoted. I never cared about being a CSM and I certainly didn't need the money that promotions gave. I loved what I did and hated the idea of change and more than anything the idea of more responsibility. So don't let anyone tell you what you are ready for and what you are not. That is YOUR decision. Not your commands.

Response by SGT Jim Wiseman made Aug 1 at 2023 1:20 PM

2023-08-01T13:20:26-04:00

When I was a Private, I was witness to a section leader working to get a SPC promoted in order to be the NCO among us radio guys set to be in the TOC. This was one of the commo reps that was to maintain comms in the TOC. The SSG said one time: "The good thing about a Corporal is, when you need an NCO, you have an NCO. When you need a Joe, you have a Joe." It led me to call this position "NCJoe."
Unless the Army has drastically changed since I left in 2015, Team Leaders and Squad Leaders were often SPC's. You, likely would have been proud to be named one, unless (And this would be my guess, since the attitude probably would come through in either subtle or overt ways.) you're whole attitude projected that you weren't willing to take extra responsibility unless you were getting compensation for it.
Now, BLC was WLC when I was in. As a late-life entry and was older, I was often seen as a leader, even as an E-1 PVT. When I was promoted to SGT, I didn't have that under my belt, and it was supposed to be a requirement for promotion. It didn't even get mentioned as an issue until my acting 1SG find out I had never been and about half-heartedly threatened to pull my stripes. That was about six months before I was scheduled to get out on a med retire. It never happened.
You're refusing... it seems at least... to do the minimum in order to get the promotion and EARN the pay. "I DESERVE to get paid!" Why? Sounds like they're offering to put in a packet to send you to Ranger School. A leadership course. Hard work, but worth it if you can get through! Always represented by the tab once you've completed it. Maybe it's even something you WANT. But, you don't want to try until you get paid?
Turn down the 4187. It'll go into your file and likely will be used as a basis for a recommendation to deny or never offer you any promotions in the future.