Can I get a counseling for not responding to a text while asleep?

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 11:33:06 -0400

5:17 received a text to report for a UA at 0630. I did not wake up to the text but answered the phone call I recieved at 0650. I am now getting a negative counseling for failure to report and can't find a regulation that enforces it

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Jul 30 at 2015 11:39 AM

SGT Kristin Wiley — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 11:39:07 -0400

No, but it's amazing what leaders get away with these days. I've gotten a negative counseling statement for talking to a chaplain and one for not reporting to duty because I was sick in quarters (on narcotics) and was not legally allowed to drive. I only got the counseling statement because the person who said they'd cover my duty, didn't show up. Somehow that was my fault.

You have to determine whether it's worth the hassle to fight it. My character screams yes, but after a few weeks or months of stress you might think differently. Use your chain of command, if that fails try IG. My personal experiences have been unsuccessful, but remember a negative counseling doesn't follow you.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2015 11:41 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 11:41:05 -0400

That seems like the way you disobeyed my order - that you obviously didn't get.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2015 11:41 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 11:41:34 -0400

You should definitely rebut the counseling statement. Especially if the sender is on a different network than you, text message timely delivery is NOT guaranteed. I would seriously take this higher as this is lazy leadership. They should have called you.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Jul 30 at 2015 11:45 AM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 11:45:52 -0400

If you were on a duty that required you to be available then yes, that sounds justified. If this was a last minute issue then the phone call should have been the primary means of communications. Has your CofC laid out their emergency communications plan where they expect you to respond to a text at O-dark-thirty? If they haven't and you don't have a text alert or other warnings set up on your phone then that seems a bit over the top to expect you to respond.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2015 11:56 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 11:56:03 -0400

CPL, you certainly have a bullet for rebut. Your NCO should have called you instead of just texting you. Another question is raised in my head as to why you weren't called until 20 minutes AFTER you were to report. Had you been one of my Soldiers, I would not have been lazy to just text you, and I CERTAINLY would not have waited that long to call you. Your NCO should have called you @ 0630 asking why you were not present. But, to answer your question, technically yes you can get one since you were "notified" (and I will use that term loosely) of when and where to report and you failed to do so, as this (kind of) falls under "Failure to follow the orders of a Non-commissioned Officer". That being said, ENSURE that you write your rebut in the comment block that you are allowed to write in. Personally, your NCO FAILED you and FAILED in their duties. In the Army, one must choose when to fight certain fights, and I would recommend you fight this one. If need be, take this further up the chain if you need to.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jul 30 at 2015 12:11 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 12:11:04 -0400

Like someone already said, you can get a counseling for anything. Somethings you can text and somethings you need to call or at least send a text for an important WARNO with a phone call to follow.

Response by SSgt Khanh Pham made Jul 30 at 2015 12:19 PM

SSgt Khanh Pham — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 12:19:16 -0400

Document everything and consult your lawyer on everything :)
Without context, I decline to offer more input.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Jul 30 at 2015 12:23 PM

SGT Ben Keen — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 12:23:21 -0400

This is a sign of lazy leadership. My question to CPL Private RallyPoint Member is was he the only person to get a text or did his leader send out a mass text to several people at one? People must remember that while sending a text message removes any confusion as to what was said because it's there to read, most notifications are short. To be an effective leader, one must know and understand what technology to use and when to use it. I can see sending a text at like 1717 to a bunch of people saying "Tomorrow bring...." but for a recall type situation, the leader must actually get up and do the right thing by calling his/her troops. I'm sure the leader got a call, not a text.

I would fight the counseling statement.

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made Jul 30 at 2015 12:23 PM

Capt Mark Strobl — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 12:23:29 -0400

If the situation is as simple as you described, I'd tag this under "Leadership Failure." If you are in the barracks, I'd expect the CoG or SoG to be knocking at your door. If you're living off-base, a phone call should have been done. I don't respond to text message while asleep... or driving. I guess you have to weigh the value in rebutting the counseling. If nothing goes in your service record, I would blow it off. If this administratively follows you, I'd have a formal response posted right underneath that counseling entry.

Response by CW3 Stephen Bacon made Jul 30 at 2015 12:35 PM

CW3 Stephen Bacon — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 12:35:11 -0400

Is this for real? Is this what passes as leadership in our NCO Corps now? Just WOW.
Take it up the chain, write a response, BUT be prepared for a little extra attention. This clown you have as an NCO is certainly going to hold a grudge, especially if he believes sending a text message in the middle of the night counts as direction.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jul 30 at 2015 12:37 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 12:37:51 -0400

Escalate to higher. Seriously.

When you receive any Order, there is an "acknowledgement" portion of that Order, lest you didn't actually receive the order. This doesn't mean you can ignore orders, but it does mean the person giving it has ensure that it was actually received.

Sending someone a text at 0517 to be someplace at 0630 doesn't meet those requirements. Banging on your door, and saying "Be at X at 0630" does. Whereas, when he called you at 0650, the first words should have been "Did you get my text?" which confirms receipt. Likewise if you woke up at 0645 and saw the text, you have an obligation to IMMEDIATELY call the sender and say "I just saw your text, I will be there at Y."

So, your options are:

1) Rebut the counselling in writing.

2) Say "Can we talk to 1SG/PSG/CSM about this together and get his opinion? I think this is out of line, and I'd like his opinion."

3) Alternatively, there is the possibility that the counselling statement is not for missing the event but for the conversation which occurred when you missed the event. Sometimes a failure of "tact" will get you in trouble, when a simple explanation would have prevented it. See what the actual statement says.

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Jul 30 at 2015 1:24 PM

SPC(P) Jay Heenan — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 13:24:44 -0400

In my personal experience, I got one for being in the shower and missing a phone call at just after 0700 to tell me to be somewhere at 0730 instead of the 0800 I was originally supposed to be there. I would just make sure that you 'don't concur' with and write up why.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2015 2:51 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 14:51:30 -0400

You should not be counseled for not responding to the text if you did respond to the phone call. If they had tried calling as well it's still a little sketchy. What time were you supposed to report normally? If it's after 730 then 650 is still reasonable to be asleep. 5:17 most certainly is.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2015 4:06 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 16:06:22 -0400

You can get a counseling for anything. Whether that counseling can be used to begin action towards NJP or UCMJ is a completely different story. You're an infantryman and a CPL, so I can only assume that your Squad Leader is on the other end of this counseling. My recommendation is to rebut the counseling when given, and to ask your Squad Leader to set up an "appointment" with your Platoon Sergeant to discuss the matter.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Jul 30 at 2015 5:24 PM

SGT Bryon Sergent — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 17:24:06 -0400

Brother that is what the space is for disagree and put in your comments INITIAL said comments and refuse to sign.

Response by PO2 Skip Kirkwood made Jul 30 at 2015 5:31 PM

PO2 Skip Kirkwood — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 17:31:06 -0400

Rebut.
The counseling superior may object if you use the term "jackass" in your rebuttal, but it is surely deserved. Expecting somebody to wake up for a text message is just ridiculous.

Response by PO2 Skip Kirkwood made Jul 30 at 2015 5:42 PM

PO2 Skip Kirkwood — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 17:42:29 -0400

By the way, is UA (a) urinalysis, (b) unit assembly, or (c) unauthorized absence. Not that it makes a difference in the answer to the question, but it IS a communication problem!

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Jul 30 at 2015 5:53 PM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 17:53:56 -0400

A text message is not the appropriate way to notify anyone of a need to report. As a manager and supervisor if I need someone I call them. I also have a policy that if you need to call out you must speak to me. It's common sense! We are too reliant on technology and not actual human interaction. Speak with your CSM or señor enlisted advisor.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2015 8:49 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 20:49:13 -0400

I smell more to this story.
Please correct me if I am wrong CPL Private RallyPoint Member, but to give advance notice of urinalysis indicated that you were on the watch list for specific testing due to a previous positive result. A random test would not be announced.
If you are subject to increased directed UA, you have additional requirements, as you should well know.
However, your leadership has an obligation to give reasonable notification. An order is an order when it received and acknowledged. There should have been more than one communications method employed in order to ensure receipt and acknowledgement.

You have rights. But if you are in the situation I think you are, you need to be as cooperative and respectful as possible. Hopefully you have made adjustments and cleaned up your act. Don't risk your second chance by drawing fire barracks lawyering this. Take the opportunity to ensure that proper and effective communications methods are employed in the future.
If someone tries to make a big deal out of this, you need to be as reasonable and cooperative as possible. Be the good guy. Believe me, this First Sergeant (and most others) can see where the failure was here. You might not see it, but there would be a counseling statement awaiting your Sergeant when I saw him. Along with additional supervision.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2015 9:52 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 21:52:28 -0400

While on deployment, I received a counseling for not wearing steel toed boots that I had never been issued. I had pushed it up the chain AT LEAST twice, but I believe 3 times; that I had never been issued them. I wrote so in the notes section, but accepted the counseling. I didn't accept it because it was just, but because it wasn't worth fighting. I was in an ate up unit and I knew it. I've moved on, it definitely didn't hurt my career, despite my rage and bitterness over it. I'm not suggesting you shouldn't fight it, just that it might not be worth the consequences.

Response by SrA Matthew Knight made Jul 31 at 2015 2:47 AM

SrA Matthew Knight — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 02:47:05 -0400

Seems like an illegitimate reason for a counseling. Not only should they have called you in the first place but one would think maybe informing you of a formation the day prior would have been a better way to ensure people show up on time. If the intention was to do a surprise formation then going to peoples doors would have even been better.

We can't rely totally on technology to get the message across. I know that my reception in my dorm room is awful unless my phone is right next to my window. That's completely across the room from my bed, if I get a text I am not going to be woken up by it. I'll be lucky if a phone call itself ends up waking me up.

In your situation I would try to rebut it as others have said. I had an Lt at my last base that was threatening me with counseling because I didn't fill out paperwork he sent my government e-mail while I was on leave and had no access. He didn't notify my supervision or anything and he gave me a deadline set only a couple of days after my return. I was able to do it all before his deadline but had he written me up for it I would have fought the hell out of it. Leadership shouldn't be writing you up for their failure to properly communicate what they need for you to do.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2015 3:45 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 03:45:00 -0400

I had a CSM tell me that an email sent is not an email received. I think the same can be applied to text messages. The sender of the text should have at least called when he saw that you did not respond to the text to ensure you were tracking. Technology is not always dependable. I think the best course of action would be to talk to your NCO or someone in your chain of command to keep it in house and give them a chance to fix it. As this is just a counseling and your are not being recommendend for UCMJ

Response by SPC Robert Patrick made Jul 31 at 2015 6:51 AM

SPC Robert Patrick — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 06:51:59 -0400

CPL Joseph Davenport I would take this up the chain of command, especially if the first hard time you had for the day was later or not at all due to it being an off day for shift work. First of all a single notification via text message is not going to wake you up if you are a heavy sleeper there should have been a phone call. Second your NCO cannot try and say that they called you at an earlier time seeing as both call logs do not lie. This is poor leadership. I will say though be respectful and use tact. Also do not be surprised if, because you take this higher, that NCO tries to interfere or holds a grudge against you (even though it is not allowed.) If you do receive any back lash from this take it up with you Chain of Command.

Response by SGT Bradley L. made Jul 31 at 2015 8:28 AM

SGT Bradley L. — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 08:28:27 -0400

It's poor leadership to contact a soldier in a text with something that is time sensitive. I don't hear my text alerts half the time during the day. I liked giving my guys their space when off, so if something changed for the next day I would text them and ask for a rgr back. If they didn't respond in 30-40 minutes I followed up with a phone call. Time sensitive always was a phone call or face to face. You're probably going to get the counseling statement. I'd ask for your platoon sergeant to be present, and in the NCO's plan of action I would ask that he calls your phone when their is a last minute change that is time sensitive. I'd also make a point that you answered your phone when it was called.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2015 11:35 AM

LCpl Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 31 Jul 2015 11:35:41 -0400

You can be counseled on anything the biggest thing that a lot of people forget is you do not have to sign it. if they try to force it take it higher no reasonable leadership is going to allow someone to be counseled on something this dumb. if you never responded or was not awake to respond it is the same as if you never received it. who ever it was probably got blown up and now they are butt hurt. I wouldn't sign it but I would definitely make a rebuttal to it.

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Aug 1 at 2015 3:22 PM

SGM Steve Wettstein — Sat, 01 Aug 2015 15:22:56 -0400

CPL Private RallyPoint Member if you received a counseling for that, your SL, PSG and 1SG need to have a talk with your TL.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Aug 3 at 2015 2:09 AM

PO1 John Miller — Mon, 03 Aug 2015 02:09:50 -0400

This is as bad as a counseling statement I was supposed to get once for GOING TO THE BATHROOM WHILE ON DUTY. Yes you read that right.

I had to go bad, so I got an E-5 to cover my watch station. Apparently our fat ass piece of shit civilian director wanted the E-5 to do something for her, but the E-5 told her that she (E-5 was also a female) was covering my station for me so couldn't carry out her order until I got back (we were the only 2 people qualified for the watch station). Fat fuck civilian got butt hurt and ordered our watch section supervisor to give me a counseling statement. He didn't, but he did tell me he was supposed to. I told him "Good, because I'm sure you know I wouldn't have signed it."

Karma is a bitch though, and that civilian later ended up getting in trouble and reassigned to a different job, one where she wouldn't have contact with or be in charge of military personnel.

Response by MSG Tim Gray made Aug 3 at 2015 2:17 AM

MSG Tim Gray — Mon, 03 Aug 2015 02:17:13 -0400

Please give us a follow up to your "counseling" my advice is be respectful. It is not hard to see that you can be the bigger person here. I'm not saying lie down and take it, but if you word your rebuttal correctly, your counselor may want to tear up the statement once he sees clearly how stupid the situation is!

Response by CPL Eric Allen made Aug 3 at 2015 2:22 AM

CPL Eric Allen — Mon, 03 Aug 2015 02:22:50 -0400

Don't worry about it it's like getting a text while driving and not responding 1sgt's like to laugh at stupid BS like that

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2015 6:11 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 03 Aug 2015 06:11:47 -0400

Heck no you shouldn't be getting anything at all. At text at 5am then calls you 20 minutes after you should have been there??? He should have called you in the first place. Even then your no should have asked themselves "if my soldier hasn't answered the text after 15 min of sending maybe I should call them just in case they are sleeping or something happen to them". I don't understand how people that can't think right and use common sense get promoted in our armed forces and then are placed to lead. You need to fight this issue but ensure you do it professionally. You have a toxic leader that won't take responsibility for their mistake.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2015 6:33 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 03 Aug 2015 06:33:07 -0400

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there is also a "24 hour rule." You cannot be expected to arrive to formation if the location or time has changed without being reasonably notified. Usually the day prior.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2015 7:48 AM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 03 Aug 2015 07:48:36 -0400

Ha, no. I overheard a wise CSM tell his entire formation during a 4-day weekend safety brief "Leaders, you don't text out information that contains formation times and uniform requirements and that includes recall information, pick up the damn phone and call your Soldiers!"

Response by SSgt Charles Edwards made Aug 3 at 2015 9:24 AM

SSgt Charles Edwards — Mon, 03 Aug 2015 09:24:13 -0400

In all of my years in the military, never was I recalled via text message. Even if the sound is on, there's no guarantee you'll hear the alert for it. At least a phone call would have provided sufficient time to wake up and acknowledge it. Prepare a rebuttal statement and attach it to the paperwork. You should get it thrown out and your supervisor will take the hit. Good luck.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2015 11:19 AM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 03 Aug 2015 11:19:15 -0400

You can get a counseling on anything whether positive or negative. Whether it can be used to substantiate UCMJ is another. Just writing a 'magic statement' at the bottom doesn't make it enforceable.
Whether you sign it or not has no bearing on it. That acknowledges that you were counseled. The actual discussion is what is supposed to be recorded/summarized on the form. If necessary, you would write in your part of the story.

The best way to use the counseling statement is to hand write it or type it up as you deliver the counseling and include all sides of the discussion. Counseling statements are about the Soldier, not the leader and part of professional development. Also, turn it over and look at the top. You are supposed to follow-up.

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Aug 3 at 2015 11:20 AM

CMSgt James Nolan — Mon, 03 Aug 2015 11:20:00 -0400

I would take that one to the mat. A text is only a communication if I get an acknowledgement in return. And, I agree with many previous-that is just lazy.

I would also consider having a conversation with my leadership regarding messaging after hours. Example- I turn both phones to "calls only" after 2200. If you want to reach me, call me, I will answer-If I do not do that, my emails go off all night long and no sleep tends to make me angry. I, in turn treat people the same way-If I need to seriously reach someone after hours, I call. I figure that if someone is sending a text or email in the middle of the night, it is not important until I get out of the rack in the morning, and then I will respond to them.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2015 1:14 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 03 Aug 2015 13:14:43 -0400

Every morning there should be an accountability formation. You shouldn't have found out about the UA 20 minutes prior, however, what time was the accountability formation? Did you have an early work call and no PT or something? Just curious.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2015 1:29 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 03 Aug 2015 13:29:03 -0400

Are you joking? could there be more behind the story than just missing a txt? this is pushing the boundary of moral and ethics on the part of the leadership.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2015 2:37 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 03 Aug 2015 14:37:28 -0400

This is lazy leadership. As an NCO, if my soldier had a UA and he didn't respond in time, you would have been woken up by me screaming to get here. It also makes me wonder, if you got a phone call at 0650, I would ask, did you have the day off? Do you live in the barracks? Did anyone else in the platoon have UA as well? Once the announcement that there was going to be a UA, why didn't someone in the platoon or someone else in the company call you to let you know that you had UA? Now a days, there's no way an entire company is doing PT in the morning, someone is always on profile and someone always has an appointment. As for the NCO, sure I can send you a text, but if I know your history in answering text messages [not saying you're bad in responding] I don't give a rat's tail if I disturb you from your slumber, you better wake up when I call!!! I'd rather yell at you and get you where you need to be before, we both have to walk that carpet if you know what I mean!!!

Response by PO3 Sherry Thornburg made Aug 3 at 2015 10:45 PM

PO3 Sherry Thornburg — Mon, 03 Aug 2015 22:45:47 -0400

If it was that important, it should have been a call.

Response by SFC Joseph Lumpkins made Jan 3 at 2018 4:26 PM

SFC Joseph Lumpkins — Wed, 03 Jan 2018 16:26:43 -0500

Sign the counseling statement because that does not mean that you agree with it then rebut the counseling with the facts. If you were not notified in advance other than a text that you did not receive then your chain of command should stop this in it’s tracks.

Response by SPC David Willis made Jan 3 at 2018 4:49 PM

SPC David Willis — Wed, 03 Jan 2018 16:49:09 -0500

I hardly ever recommend trying stuff out you saw in military movies/shows. But there is a great scene from Band of Brothers where Sobel tries to screw over Winters for not responding to an imaginary phone call/runner. Id check it out if you can.

Response by SFC Stacy Harris made Jan 3 at 2018 4:59 PM

SFC Stacy Harris — Wed, 03 Jan 2018 16:59:45 -0500

Wait..... What time do you normally report for duty?! Why are you not already at work at 0630 doing the bend and reach and the rest of PRT?!

Response by SGT Tom Recupero made Jan 3 at 2018 6:22 PM

SGT Tom Recupero — Wed, 03 Jan 2018 18:22:58 -0500

People loose their shit when you disagree to a counseling statement. It’s like stealing candy from a baby while yelling at it. Instant NCO temper tantrum

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jan 3 at 2018 6:31 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Wed, 03 Jan 2018 18:31:41 -0500

It's a counseling statement. They're informational. You can get one for anything. Not sure why people are acting like you're being court martialed...

Response by SSG Shafter Baker made Jan 3 at 2018 8:06 PM

SSG Shafter Baker — Wed, 03 Jan 2018 20:06:28 -0500

Is this what the Army has fallen to? That's like getting an article 15 for not responding to a letter... I'm glad I'm out, but then again, when I was in, if I wanted something, I went face to fact to get it...

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Jan 3 at 2018 8:10 PM

Cpl Rc Layne — Wed, 03 Jan 2018 20:10:41 -0500

Gather ALL of your documentation, put in in chronological order, prepare a written statement, and use your chain of command.

Response by SFC Don Ward made Jan 3 at 2018 8:12 PM

SFC Don Ward — Wed, 03 Jan 2018 20:12:01 -0500

I once got a Letter of Concern from a Battalion XO for the Company not passing the OIP on Medical Readiness as a SSG, when an SFC was the one on orders for the Program. I was the Unit Operations NCO (read glorified clerk) and soldiers would drop their shot records and HIV slips off with me for the SFC to pick up. The SFC was a real POW and didn't get the database up. So, I get a this Letter, from the Bn XO with 1SG escorting me to the reading. So, I end up working overnight on the database, and get an exceptional on the re-inspect. Bn XO, Company Commander, and 1SG are going to present me with an ARCOM for the great recovery - I left the award on the Bn Cdr's desk afterwards and walked out. It got forwarded in distro to the orderly room - I left it lay on my desk until the day I changed sections and I don't know what happened to it after that.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Jan 3 at 2018 10:37 PM

Capt Tom Brown — Wed, 03 Jan 2018 22:37:04 -0500

Would like to see how this turns out and what the concensus is here in RP.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 4 at 2018 7:18 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Jan 2018 07:18:34 -0500

Why weren’t you at PT?

Response by LTC Russ Smith made Jan 4 at 2018 8:43 AM

LTC Russ Smith — Thu, 04 Jan 2018 08:43:37 -0500

The "manager" that texted you should be counseled. In fact, you should request a commander's inquiry under AR 15-6 in to the situation. Ask your commander or his boss, if this your company commander, to determine if this"management by texting" is a pattern. Ask for your commander to establish written policy regarding "management by text." This is a pure failure in leadership.

Response by MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 4 at 2018 9:24 AM

MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Jan 2018 09:24:41 -0500

State your honest rebuttal on the counseling form. In my opinion, a single negative counseling shouldn’t negatively affect your career if you’ve rebutted it and you don’t show any pattern of misconduct. If it will likely impact you negatively (not going to a board) take the counseling and the text message up the chain of command. The time/date data on the text message doesn’t lie, so a reasonable chain of command should be able to make an informed decision on whether the counseling is something they should be considering when making decisions about your future.

Response by SFC Francisco Rosario made Jan 4 at 2018 1:49 PM

SFC Francisco Rosario — Thu, 04 Jan 2018 13:49:44 -0500

Go to talk to JAG asap

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jan 4 at 2018 1:55 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Thu, 04 Jan 2018 13:55:36 -0500

It seems wrong, but I do have a question, if it was a duty day then why weren't you at 1st formation at 0630, ready for PT and accountability? I don't agree with the text, idea, they should have called, but if you missed formation then you should get a counseling statement.

Response by Maj John Bell made Jan 4 at 2018 2:50 PM

Maj John Bell — Thu, 04 Jan 2018 14:50:42 -0500

Leadership by cell phone?!?!? I am glad that I served when saber-toothed hamsters roamed the Earth.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 4 at 2018 2:57 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Jan 2018 14:57:23 -0500

I don't see how this will stand, unless your unit has made this means of recall SOP i.e. you are directed to keep an open link at all times. Otherwise an order never received holds little authority for non-compliance. Sounds very chicken s**t to me. Lazy NCO should have called you vice texting. Don't clear the text, as it will show it was never received or show the time if you did. Same applies to the call. Sounds like the recall is not the root issue, but rather someone is "bird dogging" you under suspicion. Good luck.

Edit: Just noted this is an old post. FWIW, hopefully you found a working brain somewhere in your CoC and this got squashed. For any others, if you are right you need to get that on the record. Remain respectful during the process and go through proper channels. Use facts and not opinions, and ensure your rebuttal is professional in nature and concise. Generally anything that goes into your service record may have impact on your future career, including promotion, reenlistment, assignment, and even character of discharge. If you sign it that verifies you received the counselling and will comply. If not, a remark will likely be made "refused to sign". If you are right you SHOULD rebut in writing and ensure it gets placed in your record IAW your service policies. Failure to sign does not accomplish this. In essence, if you fail to rebut, anyone that sees your record in the future assumes that you agreed totally with the derogatory comment. If there are mitigating circumstances that are not outlined in your counselling you should enclose those, even if you were essentially in violation. The absence of any rebuttal signifies that you agree totally with the derogatory comment totally and have no grounds to debate it in the future. If you are refused the right of rebuttal that needs to be taken to a higher level. You may be disgruntled at the time and have no plans to stay in, but plans do change. By rebutting, you get your side in the record. It could make a difference in the future.

Response by Cpl John DeConti made Jan 4 at 2018 4:25 PM

Cpl John DeConti — Thu, 04 Jan 2018 16:25:31 -0500

I would go ahead rebut this... It's obviously an NCO that lacks common sense, and or any form of leadership ability. As an NCO you need to clearly communicate with your soldiers (In your case) via reasonable means... If an urgent matter arises during hours where most are sleeping then send the firewatch, OOD up to the barracks room to knock and wake up the individual, If the individual is of rank/married and lives off base a phone call or repetitive phone calls are in order.... Otherwise I'm pretty sure this is why we had evening formations before going home every day..... To pass on the word for the following day. (PT,DUTY,Training's etc etc ). Best of luck to you.

**fkn facebook... I just realized this post is from 2015.**

Response by SFC Joseph Lumpkins made Jun 3 at 2018 4:13 PM

SFC Joseph Lumpkins — Sun, 03 Jun 2018 16:13:23 -0400

If all that you say is true and you were not scheduled to be at work until later in the day then you have a weak chain of command if they allow this to happen.

Response by CPO Albert Kennison made Jun 3 at 2018 4:14 PM

CPO Albert Kennison — Sun, 03 Jun 2018 16:14:15 -0400

Is this what the military is coming to in today's world. Electronics are going to be the destruction of mankind's social realm. Why not just talk face to face?

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jun 3 at 2018 5:54 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Sun, 03 Jun 2018 17:54:22 -0400

1 negative counseling won't break you. Why did they text and not use phone tree?

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 3 at 2018 9:36 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 Jun 2018 21:36:15 -0400

Text messaging is not a form of effective communication especially the type of communication that requires to wake someone up. I have seen cases where text messages do not hold up at legal because there is no proof the person saw it or not. I'm not legal and I am not going to say this argument holds up. But just sending a text message and receiving no response is not count as notifying anyone. You were notified at 6:50 when the NCO confirmed that you are aware of the UA. Simple as that. The best advice to you is to take this as a learning opportunity on how to be a leader, if you don't hear that soldiers voice over the phone or see them face to face they are not notified and it's your butt on the line.

Response by 1SG Charles Rivenburgh made Jun 3 at 2018 11:14 PM

1SG Charles Rivenburgh — Sun, 03 Jun 2018 23:14:53 -0400

I am at a loss what to tell you. You have an Army that has cell phones. Mine didn't. We used to get by with the mirror, semaphore, and smoke signals from the locals. Kidding aside the CO and me would meet with the BN CO and BN CSM to find out if it was company-wide, platoon level or every so many names selection. Once that was decided, we would come in at 0300, put MPs at every exit and in front of every latrine. We would have the CQ initiate the alert recall. This insured those living in the barracks and off the post had no excuses for not showing up. Easy peezy. The person who texted you should be counseled for being lazy and not doing his/her job. You even though it was only a text should have set an alarm clock or ensure that someone helped you wake up on time. You may think it is unfair, but if your NCO had verbally told you to be in at 0630, that would be equivalent to him texting. So yes, you deserve counseling. Whether verbal or written depends on your past history with showing up on time for formation. Get a LOUD alarm clock. And good luck!

Response by MSG John Duchesneau made Jun 3 at 2018 11:26 PM

MSG John Duchesneau — Sun, 03 Jun 2018 23:26:04 -0400

Please listen to this old and wise Master Sergeant -
If your Squad Leader, Platoon Sergeant and/or First Sergeant thinks you screwed up - you screwed up. Period. Yes, you can and should explain that you did not hear the text come in and were asleep but the negative counseling will pass. Long ago, when I was a humble SGT, I got a field grade Article 15 - six years later I was an SFC with two deployments to Iraq and a Bronze Star Medal.
The secret to success in the Army is simple - do what you are told to do and stay out of trouble. Its that simple.

Response by 1SG Charles Rivenburgh made Jun 4 at 2018 12:36 AM

1SG Charles Rivenburgh — Mon, 04 Jun 2018 00:36:59 -0400

Sgt. Wiley, where was your sick slip signed by the doctor who treated you? Did you stop by your unit and report you were being given quarters and give them your sick slip? Always a good idea to get a copy made for your own personal files in your quarters. I would talk to your chain of command and your NCO support change about the counseling. Good luck with it.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 4 at 2018 2:08 AM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 Jun 2018 02:08:21 -0400

I have successfully fought a counseling for this very thing before.
At one of my previous units, my shift supervisor sent a Facebook message to us about an event that required our immediate presence in the middle of the night. I usually sign out of all my apps before I go to bed so they do not interrupt my sleep or light up the room, but I keep my ring set to max volume. I woke up to the phone call several hours later telling me to report in the morning at normal time in blues.
I show up and proceed to get counseled. I did all of this professionally of course; the last thing you wanna do in this situation is lose your bearing.
Went straight to the ADC and explained it. Put together a very strong rebuttal, met with my Shirt, explained it, etc. he was unsure how to proceed. So I then proceeded to sent my shift supervisor a series of Facebook messages from 2 AM to 4 AM. I then asked him why he didn't respond, and he responded that he was asleep and he missed them. Sent it to the Shirt, my LOC was quickly dismissed and our recall procedures updated. Long story short, it was updated to reflect that you could not face any adverse action unless all methods were exhausted to contact you, to include a person physically going to your house.
A text is an unreliable and unverifiable method of contact. Unless you can guarantee that the person has seen, understood, and acknowledged the message, you cannot punish them. Some in this thread have said it counts as a notification. Well then so is my screaming out of my front door telling my supervisor, who lives twenty miles away, I'll be late for work; how well you think that will work for me when I roll in late? Here are my personal rules for notifying my guys when we have something like this:
If it is the next duty day or longer:
24 hours prior, text/Facebook/e-mail. Replies are noted.
16 hours prior, phone call to people who did not reply to digital means. Replies are noted.
2 hours prior, phone call to people who did not respond to the first two attempts. Replies are noted.
Failing to reply to the two hour call gets a runner sent to their residence so that they still have time to get up, get ready, and report in time. If they are absent, the chain is notified and if they do not show up, admin actions are initiated.

If it's shorter notice, it's instant phone call.

My personal advice is to fight this as fiercely and professionally as possible.

Response by CPT Don Kemp made Jun 4 at 2018 10:10 PM

CPT Don Kemp — Mon, 04 Jun 2018 22:10:25 -0400

You know, as I read all these responses, I am reminded of the admonition to know both sides of the story before acting. Could there be more info?

Response by MSgt Michael Lane made Jun 22 at 2018 4:25 PM

MSgt Michael Lane — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 16:25:43 -0400

Hey he didn't miss a dental appointment that's a real shit storm.

Response by SFC Francisco Rosario made Jun 22 at 2018 5:24 PM

SFC Francisco Rosario — Fri, 22 Jun 2018 17:24:31 -0400

My advice to you is go to your installations JAG office and talk to an attorney. The last time i checked text msg were not an official form of communication unless it is a mass communications. A great eexample is when the installation EOC sends out a mass text to all individuals within the organization.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2018 9:02 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Dec 2018 21:02:10 -0500

BLUF: no, that's lazy leadership. The Army actually has a written policy that an Email CANNOT be considered a "Lawful Order". I'd be curious if the same applies to more recent technology like texts, IMs, PMs, etc.

My advice ... the ADC is FREE. Lawyer up, prove them wrong, then ruin them with an IG complaint

Response by LT Brad McInnis made Mar 5 at 2019 10:35 PM

LT Brad McInnis — Tue, 05 Mar 2019 22:35:00 -0500

So glad we didn't have these problems when I was in, but in response to your question...
1) An order has to be acknowledged, not just sent. If you were asleep, then you could not acknowledge receipt.
2) Did the leadership not plan better than to tell you the morning of, of a formation/drill/whatever? That is piss poor leadership (recommend not telling them that).
3) They waited 20 min to call you? Were there a bunch of other people that didn't get the early morning text either? What took 20 minutes to find out if one of their soldiers was okay or not?

Response by MAJ Javier Rivera made Mar 5 at 2019 10:46 PM

MAJ Javier Rivera — Tue, 05 Mar 2019 22:46:34 -0500

A text? Rebut it!!!!!! You’ll catch some undesirable attention for some time but your ought to fight it!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2019 12:33 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Mar 2019 00:33:24 -0500

Was it a scheduled duty day?
If yes, what was the time you were given to report for duty on the training schedule, or an ad hoc change at the end of the duty day prior?
What does the Company/Platoon Communication/Recall SOP say with regard to texts, calls, time to report to duty when not scheduled, or to report early when scheduled to report at a later time?
What article of the UCMJ, policy, regulation, or SOP did you evaluate, if any?
What time would be reasonable to report early (receive call 0.0 HR + 0.5 HR shower, dress + any time to prep and drop off kids (if applicable) 0.0 HRS + travel time from housing to place of duty 0.5 HR + time to move from parking lot to orderly room/UA room 0.25 HRS = Reasonable (Safe) report time after call to report = 1.25 HRS after receipt of the telephone call would be reasonable based on the travel and dress times.
If someone failed to notify you of a change to the posted training schedule, which is the standard for determining report time barring a sufficient change or standard report time (Plt will form 15 minutes prior to time on training schedule.
If you weren't told, and there is no requirement that you respond to text, in writing, and the amount of time it took you to arrive is reasonable, then you didn't fail to report to duty at the appointed time. Your supervisor's error is their own. If you knew, and it is your fault, take the counseling. If you are not at fault, take the counseling and write down each step, how any step violates any training schedule or policy.
If you Nonconcur, do it, and write it as described above.
Be factual, not argumentative, like Joe Friday---just the facts.

Response by SrA James Cannon made Mar 6 at 2019 10:52 AM

SrA James Cannon — Wed, 06 Mar 2019 10:52:14 -0500

Yeah, I think that's pretty shabby. I know that text messages don't wake me up, but phone calls do. When I was put on a call out list at one point, I was specifically asked if I can normally wake up to receive text messages in the middle of the night or if an actual call was needed. I told them I needed a call not a text. Sounds like your superior is a snowflake, millenial who only communciates by text. Wow, the millenials are now actually running the show. God help us all.

Response by SSG Eric Cooper made Mar 6 at 2019 3:00 PM

SSG Eric Cooper — Wed, 06 Mar 2019 15:00:29 -0500

I agree with the others, a text message is not proper notification, should have been a phone call. Take this up the chain. That's part of the problem with technology which encourages laziness but I expect more from our NCO Corps

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Mar 6 at 2019 4:28 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Wed, 06 Mar 2019 16:28:06 -0500

If you were due at work at the time of the test and you were late, it matters not you can receive whatever appropriate. If you were off duty and did not receive a call in time to report then it may be unreasonable to expect you to be there at that time. This is easy enough to present to the next level if the facts stand. Thank you for your service.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2019 8:04 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Mar 2019 20:04:10 -0500

If they didn’t call you immediately after the text, then no. Not everyone wakes up to minuscule sounds such as a single beep.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2019 3:01 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 29 Jul 2019 15:01:05 -0400

So CPL Private RallyPoint Member it's almost four years later. What was the outcome of all this?

Response by SGT Joseph Miller made Jun 25 at 2021 4:35 PM

SGT Joseph Miller — Fri, 25 Jun 2021 16:35:57 -0400

An order not acknowledged is not an order, when he did not get an immediate acknowledgement by text then he should've called, texting and emailing capabilities of today has made leadership lazy in the leading department and I wouldn't let an NCO who leads like this and then punishes a soldier for his own failures supervise a potted plant.
I would be throwing this NCO under the bus....backing up and rolling over him several times as this is his failure and not yours.
If one of my NCO's did this to me I'd be requesting to speak to the 1SG and if I was the 1SG I'd take off a few pounds of this NCO's ass for failing his soldiers and then trying to CYA by pushing it off on a junior NCO, that's despicable.