Can I get an article 15 with a closed counseling?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Apr 2019 03:07:59 -0400

Can I recieve a article 15 for "ftr" to pt when the counseling I got was closed out and then I was "ftr again" .
I was on staff duty my unit doesnt believe I had staff duty and paid someone else to pull my shift so they are saying I was FTR after being FTR on accident one time before. The same day i recieved a counseling after the first FTR i had, my sgt closed the counseling and like it canceled the plan of action which was getting a article 15 if it happened again. They are saying it happened again and are pushing for a article 15 and simply dont believe I pulled duty... can they do that?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2019 5:47 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Apr 2019 05:47:08 -0400

You've been listening to barracks lawyers too much. The problem with jailhouse lawyers is that an Article 15 isn't law, it's commanders discretion for punishment. You could receive NJP for looking at someone disrespectfully.
Unless you challenge your article 15 to court martial, the commander may issue whatever Article 15 your JAG is willing to bless off on.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2019 8:55 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Apr 2019 08:55:53 -0400

1. "Closing out" a counseling does not cancel the plan of action.
2. How were you "accidentally" FTR?
3. Who saw you report for staff duty, who saw you on staff duty, and who relieved you at the end of your staff duty shift? Those people can help your case.
It's been a long time since I have done staff duty, but it's probably still impossible to pull staff duty without anyone at all knowing you were there.

Response by SGT Chris Stephens made Apr 20 at 2019 11:35 AM

SGT Chris Stephens — Sat, 20 Apr 2019 11:35:49 -0400

Being that you're a specialist, there had to be an NCO in charge of staff duty. Get witnesses to attest that you were in your appointed place of duty. Was there any log that you had to keep? If so, ask to duplicate the log without being allowed to see the original. Then, let them compare the handwritings. I did this once when I was accused of not actually being on staff duty. I also described everything that happened and anything that came up in full detail.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Apr 20 at 2019 11:56 AM

SGM Erik Marquez — Sat, 20 Apr 2019 11:56:30 -0400

SPC Private RallyPoint Member Can I recieve a article 15 for "ftr"
Yes.
Heck, the commander can offer you the opportunity to accept punishment under Article 15 for misspelling the word receive.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2019 12:25 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Apr 2019 12:25:10 -0400

Can you re-explain this slower and with less jumbled garble, please?

Response by SSG Brian G. made Apr 20 at 2019 1:26 PM

SSG Brian G. — Sat, 20 Apr 2019 13:26:06 -0400

Ok. Just because a plan of action was canceled, does not mean that upon further incidents, that further action cannot be taken. That counseling for FTR was a baseline, a first occurence and you got to skate with just a counseling. A second occurence, 'in commands eyes' is a pattern of behaviour so yes, they very much can give you an Article 15. They could have given you one on your first incident.

As to the Article 15 itself, ok you claim to have pulled staff duty. You need to have whatever NCO or officer that pulled it with you stand up and speak to your command. There should be a log. Did anything happen while you had staff duty? Did you interact with anyone that can independently say that you were there and were performing staff duty? Did you take any phone calls from anyone that can be followed up on? Anything that can point and back up your claim of being on staff duty?

Conversely, command has to prove that you were in fact NOT on staff duty. A claim is fine but they have to have proof other than a suspicion.

Response by MSG Danny Mathers made Apr 20 at 2019 1:32 PM

MSG Danny Mathers — Sat, 20 Apr 2019 13:32:42 -0400

My experience with UCMJ in my day, you are guilty when your rights are read by the commander. I have only known of one person that beat an Article 15 that was a Field Grade which the Soldier worked at JAG. The army has never waisted time on judicial punishment. You are getting something which the mitigating circumstance determine the levels of punishment. I have known more than a half dozen Soldiers that got busted for paying someone to do their duty that either didn't show up or screwed up. That was a terminal stupid attack on your part. Just tell your commander the truth and don't try to shift blame. He/She might go easy on you. The barrack lawyers will get you max out; busted, fined and extra duty.

Response by SGT Charles Bartell made Apr 20 at 2019 10:21 PM

SGT Charles Bartell — Sat, 20 Apr 2019 22:21:33 -0400

You need to get a copy of the duty roster for that day and times. Unless thing have changed. At the start of the duty proid the Duty N.C.O. SHOULD start the duty log with stating the he and you are there and you both asume the duty. Then at the end of the duty priod the duty N.C.O. should state that the both of you have been relived by the new N.C.O. By name and rank along with the name and rank of the duty runner. If you duty was at you unit your 1st sgt should have made out the duty roster and singed of on it.
If you had duty Battilin or higher that is where the duty roster and log should be.
Go to JAGE if they will not give you these because they are suposed to be keep for at least a year. Just in case there is any thing that may need to be reviewd.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Apr 20 at 2019 11:03 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Sat, 20 Apr 2019 23:03:37 -0400

And barracks lawyers will spout off about all the "rights" you have. You don't have much. Administrative procedures means you can get dinged multiple times for the same thing; not double jeopardy as criminal law (higher up thought you were treated too light). You must answer questions as there is no Taking the Fifth. Essentially, these administrative procedures are the mechanism by which many business decisions are made. Is the SM worth keeping around? Is spending additional resources on the SM a good risk which will net a return on the investment? Does the SEL have the urge to find the recruiter and throttle him? It all goes into the pot.

The other thing is JAG can only make recommendations to the CoC. They don't have line authority. Good JAGs will go over the range of actions, pros/cons, etc. but the decision is up to the Skipper. Most important to remember, they work for the Skipper, not you, hence they are never really in your corner. My time in basically says the system tends to carry too many for too long. Same thing in the Civil Service arena. That's because saving folk is viewed as a better bean than being more effective but less liked (read that as the Brass doesn't like noise going up; any noise).

Bottom line, you want to atone, do whatever to keep the administrative stuff at the lowest level and not get near that line again. Worse thing to do is get the attention of the sleeping dragon.

Response by SSG Lyle O'Rorke made Apr 20 at 2019 11:21 PM

SSG Lyle O'Rorke — Sat, 20 Apr 2019 23:21:10 -0400

Speak to trial defense that is a right of yours. If you feel that you did the duty and the FTR was wrongly documented and you have proof. Demand trial by courts martial. That is another right of yours.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2019 9:38 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Apr 2019 09:38:57 -0400

Get a copy of the duty roster showing you had Staff Duty or have the NCO you performed the duty with to contact your NCO so he can verify you had duty. Good luck to you...

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Apr 22 at 2019 11:23 AM

CSM Richard StCyr — Mon, 22 Apr 2019 11:23:00 -0400

Yes, you can get UCMJ for any incidence of FTR, there is no 2 or 3 strike rule. The fact that the unit closed a counseling only means you met the action plan that was established for the first incident as a corrective measure short of UCMJ. It is not absolution and your sin has been wiped clean with a fresh start, just that you paid the piper for the first incident.

Also in the 30 years I served each Staff Duty SOP without exception required that the first entry into the duty log was that the CQ, SDNCO, Runners and SDO logged in with standard date time group when they assumed duty. The forms are maintained in a file at either the Company Operations section, S1 or S2 at BN and BDE levels depending on which level duty is performed and which shop has been tasked with maintaining the rosters. So if you logged in, there is the first place to go to establish that you at least showed up for duty initially. If you passed your duty off to someone else; the start of their duty should also be logged along with your departure.

Showing someone the DA form 6 or duty roster memo won't help you much except establish that you were supposed to be on duty at a given date and time.

Check out the DA 1594 attached, the date in the lower margin changes as forms are made fillable for computer use but the format is very much the same.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Apr 22 at 2019 4:21 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Mon, 22 Apr 2019 16:21:39 -0400

1. Get it thru your HEAD- READ UCMJ- will not see anywhere in the book about 2nd chances, 3 strikes, etc. If you are 1 minutes to a formation or 6 hrs late- you can be punished to the MAX for either 1. If you pulled duty then why can't the SDNCO write you a statement saying you were on duty, or the SDO- if by yourself, a No-no< didn't anyone make the normal/ mandatory after hrs, inspections? You do not have to receive any considerations for failing, just mitigating circumstances before punishment.

Response by SSG Dale London made Apr 22 at 2019 9:03 PM

SSG Dale London — Mon, 22 Apr 2019 21:03:45 -0400

Simple answer: yes, they can.
More complex answer: if your name is on the duty roster, it is your duty. Paying somebody to fill in for you doesn't change that. If the roster itself isn't changed, even if your substitute shows up and pulls your duty, you, my friend, are not just FTR. You are AWOL.
My advice, shut up and take the Article 15 and pray it is Company Grade and not Field Grade. Compaby Grade NJP is not such a big deal. Field Grade NJP stays in your record forever and will mess with your promotion to SFC. If they push it to court martial your career is over.
One more piece of advice: if you want to swap duty with somebody (with or without the exchange of money) make sure the duty roster gets changed to reflect it. Otherwise you're screwed.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2019 12:20 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Apr 2019 00:20:52 -0400

Closing the counseling doesn’t mean it is void. It simply means the follow up was conducted and comments may or may not have been wrote in the closing section. But to answer your question, yes.. very easily you could receive an Article 15 for FTR on the basis of violation of Article 86 of the UCMJ as well as possibly patterns of misconduct. As for the command not believing you pulled your shift, it would be pretty easy to prove one way or the other. You have someone else with you on duty. Sworn statement saying yes or no would certainly clear that up. Additionally, if you were on the DA 6 for duty and it was not changed and authorized through your command you would have been responsible for that duty regardless.

Response by SSG Dave Johnston made Apr 25 at 2019 12:24 AM

SSG Dave Johnston — Thu, 25 Apr 2019 00:24:00 -0400

So far , I believe that hardly anyone has asked about the DA-6... The DA -6 will be your defense against any arguments concerning the "Failure to Repair" allegation(s). Request in writing the DA-6 and the duty roster that shows you were in fact performing the proscribed duty "STAFF DUTY". That should resolve any questions regarding the FTR. As to any previous counseling(s) for the same offence,,,