Can I receive a 3/3 NCOER if I did not receive any NCOER support counseling, or any sort of written counseling?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Jul 2014 10:40:31 -0400

Can I receive a 3/3 ncoer if I did not receive any ncoer support counselings, or any sort of written counselings? If I already signed my ncoer is it already too late?

Response by 1SG Chris Brown made Jul 7 at 2014 1:40 PM

1SG Chris Brown — Mon, 07 Jul 2014 13:40:27 -0400

Technically, a 3/3 is still a successful NCOER. Of course, we all know that it is pretty much saying do not promote. When you sign your NCOER, you are certifying certain information, including the counseling dates on the front of your NCOER. Were the dates on there? I would not personally sign an NCOER like that if I knew it was bad, had received zero counseling, but the rater filled in dates as if he'd done the counseling. That said, the senior rater can still give a 3/3, though I think you might have a legitimate reason for appealing, especially if you had not been counseled during the rating period to point out your weak areas and where you need to improve. We owe it to our subordinates to provide proper feedback, not wait until the end of the rating period and drop a poor NCOER on them.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 7 at 2014 8:41 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Jul 2014 20:41:21 -0400

SSG Stevens; to support 1SG Brown, yes...but it's bad form. In the officer world, that's like writing a poorly worded OER, and giving someone a "center of mass." It shouldn't be a surprise though. There are obviously some counseling problems in that unit...but...it's within their range fans to do it. I don't think you'll have luck with an appeal. If it was a 4, then you'd have a better chance at appeal.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Jul 7 at 2014 9:14 PM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Mon, 07 Jul 2014 21:14:08 -0400

Yes, you can receive a 3/3 without counseling - it is a failure of leadership to develop you and, coincidentally, that leadership should be held accountable under the leadership &/or training portion of their report card.

1SG Brown is correct that a 3/3 NCOER is technically a successful NCOER however, a 3/3 will slow you down as far as promotions are concerned, and it should. Remain professional with me, and keep reading as I will try to impart on you some a little knowledge on this.

I suggest you spend an hour or so and get into the regulation (623-3) and DA Pamphlet as well to actually read the section on the appeals process as well as read what's written about counseling for it states that lack of counseling is not a justification for an appeal.

When you sign your report, you indicate that your admin data is correct and that the report is complete (you must ensure accuracy before signing). An isolated 3/3 NCOER will slow down your promotion insomuch as you are competing against your peers, if it is isolated then it could be discounted at the board however, if there is a trend where your reports have multiple 2/3 or 3/2 type reports (documented or written - you can tell the level of the report regardless of the numerical markings given by the Senior Rater), with multiple entries it will show the board that you are a marginal performer and to promote only when there are sufficient allocations.....not many branches will have that many opportunities to reach our and promote 3/3 performers.

What this does mean, you have an opportunity right here. You are PCS'ing and take this opportunity to get into your profession, develop yourself and your subordinates and learn from whatever you were doing that was not as successful at the last duty station and fix it. If you plan on staying in, then get in the fight and develop yourself, of not for the promotion potential, do it because of your professionalism, for your family name and for the country - we all depend on you to do your duty.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 8 at 2014 7:40 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Jul 2014 07:40:47 -0400

SSG Stevens- I agree with everyone else that yes a 3/3 is still technically good and can be given without counseling. Counseling is as much your responsibility as your leaders and you can feel free to ask for counseling at anytime to ensure you are on the path to get the NCOER that you desire...don't wait for a quarterly counseling, ask for it every month!!!!

Also keep in mind that signing an NCOER is not saying you agree with it. It means the Admin information is correct and you understand the appeals process. I've seen a 3/3 over turned but the soldier had all kinds of ducks in a row...it's not easy and in most cases fruitless to try.

I write my own NCOER for my rater. I do this by writing bullets for myself as events come up through out my rating period. During my counseling I give bullets to my rater for my support form. At the end of the rating period I look at what I have...combine the bullets I can for stronger bullets and then stick them on an NCOER. At this point my rater should only have to verify the bullets on the support form, tweek what is needed and send it forward. It's your career take charge!!!

Response by SSgt Gregory Guina made Jul 10 at 2014 3:46 AM

SSgt Gregory Guina — Thu, 10 Jul 2014 03:46:59 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member I am not versed on Army evals at all however in the MC if you have signed your FitRep you are acknowledging the content and you have to indicate whether you want to make any comments in your defense.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2015 8:33 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Feb 2015 20:33:02 -0500

If no counseling was conducted then the counseling date blocks should be left blank and the senior rater is required to address the missing counseling dates in the senior rater comments. If your rater just threw some dates in there (like most do) and you signed it, it's on you. Your signature is only for the purposes of verifying admin data INCLUDING counseling dates. If there were dates in there and you signed it, well you just help your rater lie on your NCOER. Dig in the regs and get educated on the NCOER as it will drive the rest of your career.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 22 at 2015 11:21 PM

COL Charles Williams — Sun, 22 Mar 2015 23:21:09 -0400

Yes, but that goes to the question I posted on counseling and leader development.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 11 at 2015 12:52 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 11 Sep 2015 12:52:19 -0400

I am in the same situation as you are, based on the emails between I and my rater, my NCOER was generated as a reaction to family issues ( dead in the family, daughter in the EFMP etc....) that I endured during my rating period. B one thing is for sure; GOD is good and he always right the wrong.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2016 11:40 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Feb 2016 23:40:20 -0500

I am dealing with a similar situation here and no you cannot receive a 3/3 without counselings to back the claims that make your NCOER a 3/3. Since you have already signed it and this is post was from a year ago you will have to go through the appeals process for NCOERs. It is painful and you have to have your facts straight before sending your case up but with no counselings you have a pretty good chance of being successful. I hope this helps SSG Stevens!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2019 1:26 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 Mar 2019 13:26:44 -0500

We are always at the mercy of our superiors, good or bad. Anything you say afterward will be covered by the same ole "he's disgrunted" or some other phrase.
Just suck it up, get out of there, or improve in their eyes. Many an excellent soldier has been left behind by their peers because of opinion.