If I received ETS orders and clearing papers, can my Chain of Command revoke them and chapter me for not making sufficient body fat progress?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 08:39:33 -0500

Earlier today, I conducted a HT/WT with my unit, although the results it shows says that I have gained weight, my screenings from a Body Composition test show that I have increased my overall muscle mass and decreased my overall fat mass.

After concluding the mornings HT/WT I was then informed by an NCO who notified me that my ETS orders can be revoked and that I can still be chaptered by my Command for not making sufficient progress.

My question then, is this: If I received ETS orders and clearing papers, can my Chain of Command revoke them? Can my Chain of Command chapter me despite having ETS orders?

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Dec 7 at 2022 9:13 AM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 09:13:02 -0500

It depends on the details. Did you fail the BCT? Were you already on the radar in regards to Body Fat and failing a previous ht/wt? It's possible but like I said it depends on all of the details.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 7 at 2022 9:29 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 09:29:20 -0500

Could be..... Yes. But it would really be a hassle. There is a lot of paper work to separate someone for failing. Most likely you will get flagged and you will continue to ETS. I don't think they would hinder the system for such an event. The counseling is something that they have to do. Even if they recommend you for separation the packet would take a couple weeks to even be considered.

Response by COL Randall C. made Dec 7 at 2022 9:34 AM

COL Randall C. — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 09:34:18 -0500

Nope. Empty threat.

Chapter 18s are only used if that is the sole basis for separation. You're a "Chapter 4" separation - Separation for the expiration of service obligation.

Very clear in the reg* - "Separation action under this chapter will not be initiated against a Soldier who meets the criteria for separation under other provisions of this regulation."
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* AR 635-200 (Active Duty Enlisted Administrative Separations), Chapter 18

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Dec 7 at 2022 9:47 AM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 09:47:40 -0500

I am assuming that you are already on the Weight Program? If you are on the Weight Program, you are already flagged with separation depending on the progress you make during the program. There is no weight standard, the standard has always been body fat, so if you decreased your body fat, why would they not consider that progress? Google AR 600-9 and you can find out all the rules by yourself.

As Cpt. Rosa stated, even if you were approaching the limits of ABCP, but were about to ETS, the most likely course of action would be counseling and letting you ETS.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 7 at 2022 10:42 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 10:42:21 -0500

Enlisted Soldiers are only allowed to be retained past ETS when being referred to Court Martial.

AR 635-200
1–23. When investigation is initiated with view to trial by court-martial or Soldier is awaiting trial
or result of trial

a. In accordance with UCMJ, Art. 2 and UCMJ, RCM 202(c), a Soldier may be retained after his or her term of
service has expired when one of the following applies:
(1) An investigation of the Soldier’s conduct has been started with a view to trial by court-martial.
(2) Charges have been preferred.
(3) The Soldier has been apprehended, arrested, confined, or otherwise restricted by the appropriate military authority.

You can't even be held past your ETS date to face UCMJ proceedings or punishment.

However, your transition leave can be revoked and you can be flagged. If you were transitioning into the RC, that will be canceled and you'll need a waiver to join the RC or rejoin the RA in the future.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 7 at 2022 12:56 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 12:56:08 -0500

Not really an answer to your question, but I have never understood the mindset of vindictive leaders trying to create problems that doesn't exist.
They're acting like ETS is a favorable action you need to remove your lag for.

Response by SMSgt Bob Wilson made Dec 7 at 2022 5:23 PM

SMSgt Bob Wilson — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 17:23:26 -0500

Bottom Line: YES! However, the red tape up the chain may result in another military member from the same unit being required to fill the position.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 7 at 2022 5:43 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 17:43:42 -0500

Let them try. JAG and IG would have a field day with that one

Response by SPC Kevin Ford made Dec 8 at 2022 10:18 AM

SPC Kevin Ford — Thu, 08 Dec 2022 10:18:22 -0500

This really seems to be vindictive and a failure of leadership on the NCO's part. It's events like this that cause retention problems. All the other SMs you encounter and tell this story to will remember it when it comes time for them to decide if they should re-enlist and continue to subject themselves to this type of leadership.

Response by 1SG Jerome Kuderna made Dec 30 at 2022 1:05 PM

1SG Jerome Kuderna — Fri, 30 Dec 2022 13:05:12 -0500

And this is why Soldiers don't re-enlist.
1. great job increasing muscle mass and lowring body fat.

2. If you provided the full story, the threat to pull your clearig papers and orders is incorrect,
PCS, different story.

That is why I took the time as 1sg to Counsel Soldiers on the ABCP. besides the official "counseling" I had the oppurtunity to discuss with the Soldier what is working and not working. In your case, might have put some leadership "on you" hey losing body fat is great, PFC snuffy's having issues losing body do you want to work with him? Now you know I am not looking at you or snuffy as Dirtbags, but a Soldiers and people worthy of rehabilitation.

i haven't looked at the regs since 2020, and ok time to give your NCO partial credit. Yes the big picture was Lbs per month lost ti make "progress" but total BFP to get off the program.... so if you were not ETS'ing, the emphasis on Lbs lost for the next month should be pointed out.

I would personnally conduct a second second confirmation weigh in and tape for anyone going on the program, coming off, or not making progress.

ok off my high horse. i just neverv liked empty threats.

good luck as in your civilian career

Response by 1SG Jerome Kuderna made Dec 30 at 2022 1:05 PM

1SG Jerome Kuderna — Fri, 30 Dec 2022 13:05:14 -0500

Response by MSG Domingus Lee made Jan 7 at 2023 11:13 AM

MSG Domingus Lee — Sat, 07 Jan 2023 11:13:42 -0500

I would recommend that you contact your local IG…

Response by SPC Jared Robbins made Jan 8 at 2023 4:30 PM

SPC Jared Robbins — Sun, 08 Jan 2023 16:30:16 -0500

Hell no they can’t. That’s bullshit.

Response by SPC Steven Nihipali made Feb 12 at 2023 2:29 PM

SPC Steven Nihipali — Sun, 12 Feb 2023 14:29:57 -0500

Don't know why stupid people are in charge of anything. Understandably, all "leaders" read from the same manual. They're all taught at the same schools and are supposed to uphold the same standards across the board... but, no.

If you're getting out and have papers, tell the supposed NCO to go she m screw themselves

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Mar 9 at 2023 11:58 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Thu, 09 Mar 2023 11:58:01 -0500

No they can’t. What the 1SG and Co should do is counsel the NCO for being uniformed, this is something he should know. If he did then they should educate him regarding threats to a Soldier. At this point just continue to turn the tied as fitness will be good for you knee a lifetime.