Can my Commander chapter me for failing height/weight after I was already counseled and being chaptered was not in the Plan Of Action?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jan 2020 22:56:08 -0500

Before thanksgiving I was taped and passed. Then after the holidays and after coming back from leave. I was taped again and this time failed by 1%. This is my second time failing in 12 months. I have been on profile due to recently being diagnosed with asthma and I have a year to get it under control. After two days I was pulled into my commanders office and told that she was gonna give me a second chance and only be barred for re-enlistment. I received my counseling that I failed and my plan of action was to see a nutritionist and all the regular things that come with failing height and weight. She told me and my NCO my bar paperwork will be ready after the weekend and I left.
A week later I was told the night before I had height and weight in the morning. I lost 7 LBS but was still 1% over.
Two weeks later on a Thursday I was on mission for the whole day and got the text that remedial was at 1630 and OCPs were okay to wear. I was done with the mission at 1605 and went straight to remedial. I even called my NCO to let her know I did not have my PTs and I was just getting done with mission. She said that there was a text sent out okaying OCPs. So I did remedial in OCPs that day.
The next day I had to take my wife to the ER due to extreme headaches. She was told a couple days prior that her optic nerve looks a bit swollen and she has been stressing about it due to it being such a serious thing. I told my NCO first thing in the morning that that’s where I’ll be after we are released from work and I might not make it to remedial, he gave the okay and had nothing else to say.
The weekend goes by and on Monday after final formation I was pulled back into my commanders office. She said she will be starting the chapter process due to me showing up to remedial in the “wrong uniform” and not being at remedial the next day and letting my NCO know at 1630 I will not make it.
She then goes on to say that she has not heard anything but bad things about me for the past two weeks. When I tried to explain the situation she was not hearing it. She then looked to my NCOs pretty much for approval and what she should do.
The last thing she said was that she was still going to proceed with the chapter but if she hears from my NCOS that I’m doing a good job she will pull the packet.

I have height and weight again this next week and I know for a fact I will pass.

Can she still chapter me for failing height and weight. I was already counseled for it and me being chaptered was not in the Plan Of Action?

This all seems to be branching out due to my “work performance”(ie; Air assault school & PT) but I can only do so much due to my asthma. When I did tell her I’m on mission all the time. She said “missions don’t really matter”.

I plan on going to IG to see what they can do for me but any insight or advice will be greatly appreciated.

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made Jan 18 at 2020 12:40 AM

SPC Erich Guenther — Sat, 18 Jan 2020 00:40:16 -0500

Fort Campbell has always been strict about height and weight, when I was there I went on the program for a week or two or being 2 lbs over weight limit. I never relied on the tape measure or caliper and felt both those methods were a fraud to circumvent the standard set. And I have to say, never saw or heard a civilian physician say "well, lets try a tape or caliper measure". Also, in all honesty your asthma has zero to do with losing weight as you don't have to exercise to lose weight. It helps but you can lose weight via portion control alone. As for remedial PT, you can't avoid that at Fort Campbell if your on the overweight program.......they are very strict and have been very strict for a long time. I served there in the mid-1980s. Good to hear they are still strict on it. Last your in breach of your enlistment agreement by not being within standards of height and weight, they have no choice but to kick you out if you do not get it under control. IG won't do anything as your 1SG and CO are following exactly what the Army's policy is in regards to enlistment standards.

Response by CH (CPT) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2020 12:58 AM

CH (CPT) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jan 2020 00:58:41 -0500

Doesn't sound like an IG issue to me. First, pass your next tape test and that will take care of that. Second, speak with the NCOs who cleared you to wear OCPs and miss remedial. Ask if they reported their clearance. If so, when? If not, why not? Based on your conversations with the NCOs, you can weigh your next steps. Pass the tape and you might not need to do anything. If you don't know what to do, talk to your chaplain.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2020 1:15 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jan 2020 01:15:02 -0500

As for height and weight, the Army has pretty generous standards. At my age I can tape at 24 or 26 percent body fat. That's fat as hell! For a person in their 20s, taping in the lower 20% is usually as easy as not drinking beer, doing some PT, and not eating like crap. Basically, being a normal adult. I certainly understand if you're a woman coming off a pregnancy or have a thyroid issue. But, a man in his 20s to early 30s can manage their weight with some simple life choices.
The fact is that you simply shouldn't have ever failed height and weight at your age. I have asthma too, and mine activated a month before I went to Ranger School when I was 19. It's worse now and I train around it to accommodate for my deficiency. If you can't do that, if your asthma is too much for you to be able to perform, you need to seek out a med board and separate that way.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2020 8:03 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jan 2020 08:03:07 -0500

Can the commander do this? Yes. Your Commander is required by reg to initiate separation if the soldier fails to meet table weight and body fat standards during the 12 month period following the removal from the weight control program.

"Initiation of separation action" means a separation action must be started and presented to the separation authority. Separation itself is not mandatory. All levels of command below the separation authority are free to make any recommendation they deem appropriate, to include retention.

It sounds like they either missed that this was the second time in 12 months, or they misinterpreted the reg about initiating separation action vs recommending retention.
Not stating this on the counseling/plan of action does not change what the reg says, it just has to be provided in writing before you are separated.

Your CO, BN and BDE can recommend retention, based on how well you do your job.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2020 10:20 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jan 2020 10:20:38 -0500

How bad do you want to be in the Army?
Put the appropriate level of effort into meeting the body composition standard / preparing to separate. All other COAs are wasted effort.

Good luck

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jan 18 at 2020 11:13 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Sat, 18 Jan 2020 11:13:00 -0500

Yes the Commander can if in fact you have met the standards tied to a chapter. The Commander is the ultimate authority. Bottom line, if you meet the criteria and you section/platoon leadership did not mention the possibility of a chapter they are delinquent in their responsibility. Good luck.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2020 11:41 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jan 2020 11:41:55 -0500

It’s you responsibility to stay in shape

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jan 18 at 2020 2:14 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Sat, 18 Jan 2020 14:14:34 -0500

I wish to God folks would realize the Army/service is not a multiple question test. under regs and UCMJ you do not have to have a 2nd chance period, ever!. They gave you a 2nd chance by enrolling you in the program- they actually could have thrown you out, Now regardless of your excuse, you failed again!. When they enrolled you you were suppose to be briefed and I damn sure they told you that failure was a chapter-able offense. BYE Bye try to have a good life.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Jan 18 at 2020 5:10 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Sat, 18 Jan 2020 17:10:23 -0500

Sounds like they are trying to give you a chance. AR600-9 states commanders WILL initiate separation for a failure after being in the program once in 36 months (para3-14) She's taking a risk on you. It is an oversight that it was omitted in the 4856 but that won't stop the train.

600-9 has no sympathy. It's cold and emotionless. It doesn't care whether you are in the field, on mission or what. I've been taped in the field in a job where I was in the field 11out of 12 months a year. I've been administered an APFT immediately following one of these three week rotations. You can be weighed and taped at anytime. Your asthma is either a managed condition that allowed you entry/met retention standards under the understanding you can meet physical standards or an unmanaged condition that would have you separated. You are not going to get a mulligan for asthma, see para 3-17.

It's simple but it is hard. Neck = big, waist = small. Height = plan on getting low balled. OR lose the weight to meet the screening table. Even then, your commander can still direct you to lose weight If your appearance is not soldierly. Also in 600-9. Suggest you read 600-9. There is no escape from it. It's tough being thick in the Army. Carried that rock for 22 years.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Jan 18 at 2020 9:31 PM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Sat, 18 Jan 2020 21:31:47 -0500

I believe you are somewhat confused about the process. If you don't make weight and don't tape, you get bar for any favorable action, which includes re-enlistment. You are then put into the AWCP, which is dated from that date of your counseling statement. When you made weight, the bar to favorable action should have been removed. Now the kicker is that you failed within the first 12 months of being off AWCP, so AR600-9 requires the Commander to initiate separation proceedings. The IG isn't going to do anything about a Commander following regulations.
That's the bad news. The good news is that Commanders have a lot of discretion about finalizing these actions IF the reason for the separation is gone. Now I will tell you that as a former Company Commander, the opinion of you section/squad leader and platoon sergeant carried a lot of weight and you seem to be on the wrong side of yours. If you want to stay in the Army, I would suggest asking fo a sit down with the PSG and Squad leader and ask them to work out a plan for you to get off the shit list. Don't make excuses and try to find a solution.
You violated your plan of action when you made weight and failed within the first 12 months. Your CO followed regulations and counseled you on the separation.

Response by SPC Stewart Smith made Jan 18 at 2020 11:43 PM

SPC Stewart Smith — Sat, 18 Jan 2020 23:43:03 -0500

Yes they can chapter you.
Even if they chapter you, keep a positive outlook. Get healthier. Lose body fat. Sound body sound mind is a real thing. You will be looked at completely differently in civilian life if you are "fat bodied" vs "healthy bodied".
That said, they don't have to chapter you. Lose weight. Be active. Don't over eat. Do what NCOs tell you. They aren't out to "get you". Some times it seems as though you're being singled out and attacked. You're not. Keep that positive attitude. Keep that positive mindset. No matter what happens to you, be positive and you'll have a happy life.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2020 11:43 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jan 2020 23:43:42 -0500

Good morning SPC..... From reading what you wrote, it seems like you had two height and weight done in a short period of time. It was bad to do one after the holidays but it is what it is. Since you failed, the commander had to initiate a flag which basically suspends everything from awards, promotions, schools, reenlistments, etc until you pass again. I wouldn't worry about the chapter for body fat because, you have to take corrective measures before you initiate separation unless you failed it twice. It's up to the Commander if they want to chapter or not. Regulations are just guidelines. If it's due to performance based, they will have to have long paperwork or counselings to back it up. If they don't have those supporting documents, JAG will reject it...... Advice to you, if you start getting counseled for something that happened a long time ago, don't sign. Google and look at AR 135-178 Enlisted Administrative Separation dated 7 Nov 2017. Read chapter 9 performance and 15 for body fat...... I see that you mentioned asthma. My strong advice to you, is to Google and look in AR 40-501 Standard of Medical Fitness. This regulation determines if you are fit for duty. I think you fall under either chapter 2 or 3 whichever say for retention, separation, or retirement and find out what it say about asthma. If your condition fit the description in the regulation, you will need to get a P3 for lungs and get the PEB/MEB process initiated for possible medical retirement. If you have any questions write me.

Response by 1SG Mitchell Smith made Jan 19 at 2020 8:00 AM

1SG Mitchell Smith — Sun, 19 Jan 2020 08:00:37 -0500

For all my soldiers I instructed them don't get yourself inside of 600-9. Stay as far away as you can. The Army sets rules, regulations and guidelines that we all must obey. Once your at the mercy of another person controlling you destiny you could be in a lot of trouble with "what-if's". Know your limit at the table and when reached kindly say no more because I have Bill's to pay!

Response by 1SG Roy Hilliman made Jan 22 at 2020 10:15 PM

1SG Roy Hilliman — Wed, 22 Jan 2020 22:15:33 -0500

Yes they can chapter you