Can my son fight being chaptered out after drug use and DUI?

2018-04-25T11:14:10-04:00

My son is relatively new to the army. He has made a couple of bad choices. He used an illegal drug. It seemed as though the punishment was going to be minor. But a few weeks later he was caught drinking and driving. He was told that he would be transferred to another base and put in Substance Abuse program. Now they are telling him he will probably be chaptered out. Is there anything he can do? I realize you don't know my son and as a dad I am biased but he is really a good kid. Up until these two offenses he had been doing really well. Do they have to give him a chance at rehab before they chapter him out?

Response by SGT David T. made Apr 25 at 2018 12:18 PM

2018-04-25T12:18:56-04:00

If the command has made the choice to go this route, there isn't much he can do. He could go to JAG, but it would probably make little to no difference. Your son made the decisions and now he has to live with the consequences of those choices. Honestly, he was given one more chance than I would have given him. If I was his Sergeant, my recommendation would be max him and put him out.

We all sign a paper when we enlist that says we cannot do drugs. If someone does, then that is on them. The DUI is something talked about ad nauseum at every safety brief. Again, that is on them. This sounds cold, I know, but the rules are clearly spelled out and not difficult to follow.

Just because he made a few mistakes, does not mean that he is a bad kid. He just did some really stupid things. Being chaptered out isn't the end of the world. I know many who have been chaptered that went on to happy productive lives afterwards. Some people just aren't cut out to be Soldiers, and that is okay. I wasn't either. The only difference is I got out on my own terms a bit later on.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2018 12:21 PM

2018-04-25T12:21:52-04:00

Mr Peyton. Respectfully, it’s sounds like he got a chance with minor punishment after his first drug offense. He maximized that chance with a DUI shortly after. Nothing will piss a Commander off more than to get some egg in his face that soon.
Without knowing any details, your son needs to speak with legal. The short answer is, yes, I think he can be separated under a chapter 14. Again, he needs to see legal.

Response by PO2 Richard Blakey made Apr 25 at 2018 12:46 PM

2018-04-25T12:46:43-04:00

new army he gone see your lawer

Response by SGT Joseph Gunderson made Apr 25 at 2018 1:51 PM

2018-04-25T13:51:51-04:00

If he used an illegal substance, he has no leg to stand on. He is going to get chaptered out. After doing drugs and a DUI, he should be happy to get out with just a other than honorable discharge from his chapter. He could get a lot worse.

Response by LTC Kevin B. made Apr 25 at 2018 1:52 PM

2018-04-25T13:52:12-04:00

If the command has decided to chapter him, he'll be chaptered. He can't stop it.

I have no doubt that your son is a good kid, but unfortunately he's providing more than sufficient evidence that he is not a good soldier. The first mistake (illegal drug use) was his opportunity to correct his path. His second mistake (drinking and driving) sealed his doom. That indicates a pattern of poor judgment, so he'll need to find another career choice. The military has a low tolerance for substance abuse issues.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2018 1:58 PM

2018-04-25T13:58:58-04:00

It doesn't look very good because of how close the two incidents are. If he gets notification of separation, he will at least have a chance to respond to the incidents. He should probably consult with either TDS, Legal Assistance, or a civilian attorney immediately to see what he can do to set himself back on the right path. He also needs to straighten up immediately and start performing.

Response by SGT Eric Davis made Apr 25 at 2018 3:19 PM

2018-04-25T15:19:09-04:00

He used an illegal drug it was using an illegal drug cause he probably did it more than once. Also to turn around and do something and getting a DUI not smart; how old is he?

Well stoping a chapter is hard and you got to prove that you are worth being in the military or that what you are accused is not true. I was chaptered out the military in 2010 for 14-12c for misconduct cause my wife lied and said I hit her but she he me and threaten me but I didn’t fight it cause it was my wife and I didn’t wanna go against her at the time. We was both deployed and she was depressed and she needed help but still didn’t make a statement against her. There was no evidence of me hitting her except her statement and I could of made the same statement but if he not guilty then in the end it will be ok. I’m notback in the military but once they start a chapter then you better start packing

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2018 4:22 PM

2018-04-25T16:22:43-04:00

"but he is really a good kid" ahhhh I can't tell you how many times I have heard this from concerned parents/relatives. Unfortunately, There are too many factors that are unfavorable for him.
1. If it was just the one-time positive urinalysis for THC...I would recommend Outpatient-ASAP, Mandatory Reoccuring Urinalysis and likely a Field Grade Article 15....which means he will likely get reduced to PVT (E-1), Do 45 days of Extra Duty and 45 days Restriction with Retention. By Regulation a Chapter Separation must be started, this doesn't mean he will be separated. In this case, the Company Commander makes the recommendation and then it would go to the BN Commander/Troop Commander for approval/disapproval and disposition. This can go either way, but I can tell you this...It is LIKELY that the recommendation from the Company Commander will get executed.
2. DUIs are another story entirely. When I was a Commander, DUIs were handled by the INSTALLATION COMMANDER (usually the 1st 1-Star or 2-Star General in the chain of command). Company Commanders, Battalion Commanders, and Brigade Commanders really have no say in the disposition. For Officers and Senior Enlisted this will likely result in a GOLOR...(General Officer Letter of Reprimand) which in many cases is a career ender.
3. These wounds were self-inflicted and could have been prevented by using good judgment. Like another poster said, We get briefed on these at nausea, so there really is no excuse for it. This is a direct slap in the face to his Leadership. It is unlikely, although it can happen, that the Leadership failed him. I can guarantee his NCOs/PSG/1SG and PLT LDR are livid!!!
4. He is considered a repeat offender and a disciplinary problem, which means he can get Chaptered based on that alone. "Failure to follow instructions, SOPs, policies, or regulations" I am sorry, this is not what you want to hear, but from a Commander's perspective, "he is NOT really a good kid"

Lastly, The focus now needs to be on which chapter, what characterization and the re-enlistment code. I don't see this as a Chapter 10 (Bad Conduct Discharge)...but likely a Chapter 14, which in some cases he can come back in the Armed Forces after a period of time with a clean record, depends on the above. A Chapter 14 with a General Discharge and a favorable re-up code.

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Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2018 5:49 PM

2018-04-25T17:49:16-04:00

Private RallyPoint Member Your son may have been a good kid, but he is a man now. Everyone in the military knows that you can not take illegal drugs. He did not learn from this mistake, because a short time later, he was caught drinking and driving. Good men do not repeatedly make these kinds of very poor choices. Maybe he can turn his life around and be a good man at whatever he does next in life.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2018 6:01 PM

2018-04-25T18:01:40-04:00

In USMC 20 years ago, any drug meant almost automatic discharge. Only debatable if they were Pvt - LCpl. If not, the DUI would have sealed the deal, no matter how outstanding he is/was. Two offenses shows pattern misconduct and the services just don't want to or have to take the chance. Sorry it turned out this way, but he'll need you more than ever soon. Make sure he realizes that he's still a good kid and you are there for him. He just made some poor choices as youngsters do, but in an environment with zero tolerance. Life will go on for him, but you need to be supportive within reason. Don't let him sit and fret. Put him to work so he can work his way out of this temporary setback.

Response by Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2018 6:46 PM

2018-04-25T18:46:33-04:00

To all who took time to reply, thank you! Obviously it was not all pleasant to hear but expected. Yes, he made the choices and now he has to live with those consequences. He has told us now that he has spoken with a lawyer and is getting some help. I would really like to help him with a swift kick in the rear end. Again thanks!

Response by Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2018 6:52 PM

2018-04-25T18:52:34-04:00

Also, just for the sake of defending my son a little. He was not a repeat user of the drug. He tried it for the first time and had a bad reaction. He panicked and thought he was dying and called his 1st Sgt. for help. Ambulance came for him. No excuse for his stupidity but this was all new to him and now he has to pay the price.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Apr 25 at 2018 7:00 PM

2018-04-25T19:00:41-04:00

No Sir, UCMJ (Uniformed Code of Military Justice) is not written to allow extra strikes or do overs. The punishment for being 5 minutes late to a formation is the same as being 5 hours late- nor do we have to waste our limited money on sending him to rehab, in hopes he will make it. He is an adult, they went over all the DO NOT"s when he was in training- and he has been caught doing substance/alcohol abuse twice. He was told the Army does random drug testing constantly- and he was told that drinking and driving was a serious crime. As an adult he made choices and they were bad ones, He is expected to stand up and face the consequences or if you like the reactions to his actions. I'm sorry, but I have lost good soldiers because they made bad decisions and we sent them home as well.

Response by SSG Jeremy Sharp made Apr 25 at 2018 8:59 PM

2018-04-25T20:59:44-04:00

No chance at rehab is "required", the COC has the right to exercise their right to begin separation proceedings if they deem the SM to be a substandard performer or troubled by things such as substance abuse. Certain MOS's will not tolerate drug abuse or OVI convictions. There is an appeal process but if he was convicted of the OVI it is not likely he will prevail. Continued service with these stigma are more difficult in the all volunteer army when service members are being processed for separation to reduce the force. The slots become competitive and the COC will eliminate the less desirable SM and keep the one with no issues. Two substance abuse issues in a short period of time are indicative of a more serious problem to a unit commander than just making a couple poor decisions and could have detrimental effects to the morale and cohesiveness of the unit if he/she does not take appropriate action.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2018 9:06 PM

2018-04-25T21:06:36-04:00

During the Chapter process, your son will be given an opportunity to speak with legal. Your son NEEDS to take advantage of that opportunity. There is a possibility that he can be allowed to challenge the chapter and face a board/hearing.......but I won't lie, it doesn't look good for your son since both incidents happened close together.

Response by SGT Brad Baier made Apr 25 at 2018 9:17 PM

2018-04-25T21:17:07-04:00

Back in the day he would have been sent to CCF. We were told it was Charlie's Chicken Farm. It seems to me that all branches are looking for ways to clean house. If someone is close to retirement and makes a bad decision they will kick you out instead of allow you to serve some form of punishment and then retire. Times have changed and so have the rules as far as what they will tolerate.

Response by CPT Don Kemp made Apr 25 at 2018 9:26 PM

2018-04-25T21:26:29-04:00

David, My heart goes out to you. My son was commissioned as a 2LT and then tested positive on a random urinalysis within 6 months. I told him as his Commanding Officer, I would have ground him into the dirt....but as his Dad, I’d do anything I could to protect him.
My guess is that your son is on his way out. But I wouldn’t let that stop you intrying to fight it.

Response by CSM Patrick Durr made Apr 26 at 2018 1:22 AM

2018-04-26T01:22:55-04:00

Sir, with all due respect, I don't know you, I don't know your son, he's new to the military and he's already committed two major offenses. Likely not originated by military life. I'm not in the business of giving advice to keep your son in. I would be trying to get him OUT. He can only put others in harms way, others who can't afford to manage him while fighting a bigger enemy. Yes, the Army and every service should be chaptering him out for the good of this nation.

Response by CMSgt Mark Schubert made Apr 26 at 2018 9:56 AM

2018-04-26T09:56:16-04:00

Wait - he WAS given a chance after the illegal drug use (he was offered rehab) - then he made yet another bad choice (he probably made several, but happened to get caught drinking and driving) - I see no other choice for the Army - and as a father, I cannot see how you would WANT any individual like this to be protecting our country!? Son or not? Military members are held to higher standards for a reason!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2018 1:13 PM

2018-04-26T13:13:20-04:00

Two offenses in a short time for a new Soldier is a sure-fire way to get chaptered. Depending on how they read the regulations, the commander might not have a choice.
The commander may elect to send the Soldier to ASAP (Army Substance Abuse Program) after the first offense and keep him in after successful completion, but a second offense will get your son thrown out of the Army, no doubt about it.

I hope that you son finds the help he needs, and that his CoC is supportive with getting him that help. He will likely need you when he gets home.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2018 1:58 PM

2018-04-27T13:58:31-04:00

People may say I have no right to say this, but I would want him kicked out. He is not someone I wish to call my battle buddy. There is no way I could trust him and there is no way I would want to deploy with him. Bad judgment on deployments means a lot more then an article 15. Your son knew from the beginning that he shouldn't of done something so stupid and he did it twice. You need to talk to your son and give him some hard life because a man with bad judgment isn't going anywhere in life.

Response by COL William Oseles made Apr 27 at 2018 4:16 PM

2018-04-27T16:16:20-04:00

He may be a really good kid but it is apparent that he has not grown up to be a Man.
He was given a second chance when he was caught using a "illegal drug" and then he pissed it away by DUI.
I suspect there is more to the story than just the illegal drugs and DUI that he is telling you about if they have decided that he is a chapter case.
HE would have to convince those in charge that deserves a second chance and that he learned his less. But the DUI tends to show he did not.

Response by SFC Christopher Taggart made Apr 27 at 2018 9:32 PM

2018-04-27T21:32:16-04:00

A simple answer and comment, because most everyone has already answered your question...my answer is NO! Worse thing about it, unless he gets himself together, THIS will bite him in the butt in the civilian world.

Response by Maj John Bell made Apr 27 at 2018 11:53 PM

2018-04-27T23:53:15-04:00

Self discipline and following orders, particularly orders you don't want to follow, are part and parcel of being in the military.

In the military even in garrison, depending on MOS, we deal with things that are designed to kill and destroy. In addition being around those things without your full faculties can get you, or someone else injured or killed. Would you want your son in that environment, under the influence of drugs, if he were working next to a sibling? Would you find it acceptable if I left your son under the supervision of a drug user or someone with reckless disregard for the effects of drinking.

How much slack would you cut someone else's son, or the chain of command,if your son was injured or killed, because that soldier was high. And driving drunk is no different than randomly firing off a weapon, without regard to what or who is down range. Your son could have gotten just as drunk without putting others at risk; drink on base, have a designated driver, or take a cab. But he didn't. Plus while he is on the skyline for one crime, he jumps into another with both feet.

Based on the information you've given, under my command; he's subject to a court-martial and punitive discharge. Hopefully that drives home that he is an adult, who needs to make adult decisions, or face adult consequences. He needs to learn the lesson now from this set of circumstances, before he injures or kills someone. Sometimes as a father, the best thing for your child is to face the full consequences of his "bad choices." I believe in tough love. If he were my son, he would get no sympathy and minimal assistance until he had traveled the straight and narrow for a very long time.

Response by PFC Elijah Rose made Apr 28 at 2018 1:11 AM

2018-04-28T01:11:08-04:00

If a good person gets the chance to reverse the decision than they will, so I strongly advise trying. But depending on the particulars of the behind closed doors understandings of the commanders and NCOs (especially if his CO is a jerk) this may be impossible.

Do understand, though, that in the many dozens upon dozens of chapter cases I know of only one managed to reverse the chapter recommendation, but even he had to go through a long and miserable time as a holdover then reclassing and retraining because bureaucrats. Frankly, it may be just as easy to re-enlist in 6 months, the recruiter won't care. But note that even then you'll experience the same jerks but with different faces.

Response by SSG Eduardo Ybarra Jr. MS Psyc made Apr 29 at 2018 12:46 PM

2018-04-29T12:46:03-04:00

Sir, It would seem that your son has (how we say in the Army) "Stepped on his crank, more than once. While I can sympathize with your concern as a parent, there are some fundamental facts that can not be dismissed. The only time a Chain of Command will recommend an SM the opportunity to attend a rehab is someone they (the CoC) deem as "salvageable", because he is fairly new to this unit it is a gamble this move would prove fruitful. The DUI in of itself is another major disaster.

With regard to your son having any chance of remaining in the Army, to be honest it looks very bleak. The only thing he can try and do is damage control meaning he basically throws himself at the mercy of the court (so to speak). He would need to provide cause to his CoC why they would need to keep him. He would in essence have to sell himself. If this should fail, admit everything he did with a plausible explanation. This may not convince the CoC, but it may lessen the severity of his reclassification code he will receive.

You mentioned this "He was not a repeat user of the drug. He tried it for the first time and had a bad reaction. He panicked and thought he was dying and called his 1st Sgt. for help. Ambulance came for him." This part is important because did he call his 1SG? If he did and told his 1SG he screwed up then there may be some help for him it is called "self disclosure" meaning that because he admitted to using a controlled substance he is not supposed to be charged under UCMJ. However, this is case dependant, meaning the CoC will either charge him or not charge him under UDMJ due to their understanding of the situation. Now bear in mind when I was a Unit Prevention Leader (UPL) this was a stipulation that was in place. I am unaware of any updated changes that my null this. However, bear in mind the Army has a zero tolerance stance with certain behaviors such as drug use. The DUI is another zero tolerance aspect. Your son may be able to argue his self disclosure but he still must face the DUI charge which in most circumstances is a more serious charge because he endangered others. Sorry that I cannot be of more help with this stressful situation. Best of luck

Response by SSG Ryan Molton made Apr 29 at 2018 6:45 PM

2018-04-29T18:45:10-04:00

I would agree with CSM DURR. I would not want to go to combat next to a guy who makes those choices. Not judging at all but he obviously doesn’t take his job seriously and with the drug charge could potentially put others at risk. As far as the dui coming from 1st batt that is fairly common but big time punishment for it even getting kicked out of batt. It sounds like he needs to grow up some.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Apr 29 at 2018 10:12 PM

2018-04-29T22:12:12-04:00

You should rephrase this question to "what can I do to help my son after he's out of the military". His career as a Soldier is done, his discharge will not be good, and his benefits both militarily, VA related, and employability in the civilian world have all been negatively affected....STRONGLY. Anything less than a General (which is possible to get, but doubtful) at this point would cost him everything, and even with the appeal system highly unlikely he'll get an upgrade. Any job will ask, and he'll be refused by damn near all in this day and age. He needs help that apparently the service cannot provide. I'd start looking into organizations on the outside that might be able to pull out the upset and get him on a straighter path.

Response by LCpl Wesley Hall made May 6 at 2018 4:38 PM

2018-05-06T16:38:46-04:00

If hes made 2 mistakes after being forgiven for the 1st, hes probably out.

Response by Catherine McGuire Needham made May 8 at 2018 11:09 AM

2018-05-08T11:09:28-04:00

It is too bad your son made a couple of "mistakes" and he will pay the price for them. Hopefully he will learn there are consequences for your actions.

Response by SPC(P) Jeff Giron made May 8 at 2018 3:14 PM

2018-05-08T15:14:45-04:00

He can fight anything he wants, but that doesn't mean he will win his case. illegal drugs and a DUI? He will not win and stay in the Army. It already says a lot about your son when his parent is on here fighting for him.

Response by Brad Miller made May 10 at 2018 8:52 AM

2018-05-10T08:52:37-04:00

He may be a "good kid", but, sadly, he's not *showing* that he's a good kid. Twice, at least, his behavior has demonstrated that he is willing to risk other people's lives with his personal behavior -- drugs, and then drunk driving. Either of those could lead directly to a mistake that gets innocent people killed.

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made May 10 at 2018 9:16 AM

2018-05-10T09:16:13-04:00

Bottom line up front - the troop has displayed patterns of substance abuse - from am administrative standpoint that's two strikes your out - the Military is not personal, its a machine, and the troop in question is a broken cog - first time, you attempt to fix, second time, you dx it. sorry if this was a bit cold, but this is how the BN Commander is going to look at it, and the fact that both infractions occurred within weeks of each other is really gonna set off the chain of command. sorry - but your son needs to start looking for other employment opportunities

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2018 6:35 PM

2018-05-10T18:35:48-04:00

If he really love's being a soldier then tell him to fight for his career and tell him I've made mistakes but I owned up to them so I've been in his shoes

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2018 7:45 PM

2018-05-14T19:45:21-04:00

From the point of view as a PSG, I have read the responses everyone has given and yes they seem harsh but let me explain it from a different angle. What our jobs are and our duty to our country, we do not have time for individuals to keep acting as though they are still civilians. We are expected to be ready to defend at a drop of a hat, a moments notice. From the time we enter into basic then go through advanced individual training (AIT), that is suppose to de-civilianize us and we be militarized. Unfortunately not everyone gets it. Military is not for everyone.
Being a PSG, I have had to work hand in hand with my company commander when he was faced with decisions regarding soldiers and misconduct. I am sure from what I have witnessed, it was not an easy task for him to decide the fate of someone's career but then I realized, it isn't the commander making that decision. It is the individual soldier making that decision when they choose to act without considering consequences.
I need my soldiers to be able to listen to simple orders and to follow them. Not half heartedly listen and do what they choose. Our lives depend on us all being able to conform to the lifestyle, follow orders and execute.

Response by SSG Doug H made May 18 at 2018 12:30 PM

2018-05-18T12:30:38-04:00

This is just my perspective, but I really think you should focus your concerns more on what is going on with your son, rather that the consequences of his actions. My own son was struggling with depression and alcohol use, and ended up getting a dui. Obviously, I am concerned about the consequences of his actions, but I am more concerned about the issues that are behind his behavior. If it is youthful indiscretion, as most of us went thru on one level or another, it will likely resolve itself with good guidance and mentoring, as well as suffering the natural consequences of his actions. If it is something else, a more clinical approach might be called for. Either way, I would encourage he attend some program such as AA, NA, etc. For the record, I have my own struggles(anger, depression, control) and attend Celebrate Recovery meetings weekly, and I know it can help.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2018 1:23 PM

2018-05-19T13:23:40-04:00

There is a zero tolerance for drugs. Likely he was on his way out for that anyway. There is a low likelihood that the one chance he did drugs was the time he popped positive.

The substance treatment is his chance to rehab but he is on his way out. What he needs is to get his life together or he is on his way to more trouble.

Response by SFC Dean Allen made May 20 at 2018 1:47 AM

2018-05-20T01:47:56-04:00

You say he is a good kid. Well, he may have some good qualities not mentioned in your post. However, he is clearly not able to meet the standards required of a soldier. More importantly going forward, he is currently making very poor life choices and if he continues to do so as a civilian he will have a hard time in civilian life too.

Have you considered that separation from military service with less than an honorable discharge is definitely not the worst possible outcome he could have had. How would you feel if your "good boy" kills someone with his motor vehicle? If he accidentally kills himself?

Right now, your job as a parent is not to save his military career - that's over. Your job is to straighten him out so the rest of his life will not continue to lurch from one screw-up to another. I do not know the young man and wish both of you well. You are the one getting a second chance now. A second chance to do some parenting that involved tough-love. Don't blow that chance sir.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2018 9:22 PM

2018-05-22T21:22:49-04:00

Sir, this is going to sound harsh, but no, your son is not a good kid. He's a young man who toland oath. He did not make a mistake. A mistake is oversleeping and missing formation. He purposefully ingested an illegal substance. And then on another occasion he ingested alcohol and then made the decision to get behind the wheel of a car, putting not only his own life in danger but countless other lives as well. He is showing a pattern of bad decisions and disregard for the lives of others. And this is while he is home on US soil. What kinds of "mistakes" will this lead to under stress in a war zone when his brothers and sisters in arms are depending on him and his decision-making abilities? How many of their lives will he risk? He absolutely should be chaptered out - maybe he will learn from the consequences of his poor decisions and he will mature and return to the Army as an older man with some wisdom. Until then, he doesn't belong in the military.

Response by 2ndLt Fulton Recepcion made May 25 at 2018 3:20 PM

2018-05-25T15:20:39-04:00

The problem is, he was warned continuously of the consequences of drug abuse since he DEP’d in the Army, and much more warnings once he got in.

They’re not playing when it comes to substance abuse, especially if it was more than once. He can try to see if he can fight it, but what would be his case for retention?

Response by SGM Jeffrey Hall made May 25 at 2018 6:08 PM

2018-05-25T18:08:12-04:00

If the Soldier is an E4 or below, he may be successful in fighting that sort of chapter action. I refer you and him to the legal assistance office. However, as a leader, I can't help but wonder what his future potential for service is. Fighting this action, if he doesn't reverse course, will only prolong the inevitable.

Response by MAJ Dave Robertson made May 26 at 2018 3:24 PM

2018-05-26T15:24:33-04:00

Can your son fight it? I sincerely hope not. It is in everyone's best interests, including your son's, to find another career field. He will have two black marks on him wherever he goes in the military, and rightfully so. But somewhere else, he can start fresh. As for my side, I need my NCOs and officers to be focused on the mission. And they in turn cannot be handling any special cases to do that. But the biggest issue is trust, which he has violated big time. This is not the place to him, but I wish only the best for him elsewhere.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2018 9:19 PM

2018-05-27T21:19:40-04:00

He might very well be a good kid but he’s a bad Soldier. He was given a second chance and he blew it.

Response by Sgt S.P. Woodke made May 31 at 2018 7:39 AM

2018-05-31T07:39:07-04:00

Let's get to the Root of his indiscretions
he's getting High and Drinking BECAUSE he is NOT happy...

the military is Not his environment -

Response by SPC Daniel Bowen made Jun 1 at 2018 1:17 AM

2018-06-01T01:17:28-04:00

Even though your son does have right in the military, he has not helped himself by doing other things prior to the DUI. It wouldn't be much different in a civilian court of law with evidence stacked against him. His only option is to speak to a military attorney and help him weigh his situation.

Unfortunately, his previous actions show a poor pattern in decision-making. He created an unnecessary risk to himself and others. They can rescind him being chaptered out, but please consider all the resources that will be used just to keep him in, and risking repetitive wrong-doing. The only other thing to consider is what has his leadership done to help him from his first mistake. Good leaders can have a huge impact on a soldiers decision-making and growing as an individual and as a part of a team. However, in the end, his actions do fall on him.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 1 at 2018 10:27 AM

2018-06-01T10:27:29-04:00

He should and would be gone.

Response by AN Daniel Squires made Jun 1 at 2018 6:55 PM

2018-06-01T18:55:48-04:00

Very unfortunate, No is there is no way around that now. All Branches of the Military are 0 tolerance, Immediate discharge, Dis-Honorable is inevitable.

Response by SSG Rick Miller made Jun 2 at 2018 3:33 PM

2018-06-02T15:33:13-04:00

Mr. Peyton, from a fathers perspective, I fully understand your desire to do all that can be done to stop your son from being chaptered out. From a leader's perspective, he's toast. The only thing that can save him is the chain of command. If they, from his squad leader/ section chief on up, think he's worth saving, they'll give him every opportunity to be saved. That being said, two violations of zero tolerance policies in such a short time indicate he's not worth the chance, good kid or no. He may be a good kid, but he ain't being a good soldier. Where he under my leadership, my most sincere recommendation would be a court martial, with every chance of hard time in Kansas. From his own actions, he's proven he can't be trusted to make good decisions. In this particular line of work, bad decisions get people dead. Trust is intrinsic to soldiering. He lost that trust. No, sorry to say, he's done. And unless he's shown more mercy than justice, his reenlistment code will prohibit him from ever wearing a uniform again. I know that seems harsh, and maybe even heartless, but it isn't. He made two seriously bad choices, in a very short time. Not mistakes, choices. Career ending choices, and he knew it. I'm very sorry to say it, but he deserves neither a second chance, nor mercy. Actions have consequences, piss poor actions have piss poor consequences. He's about to discover that very hard fact. I do hope he manages to overcome whatever demons he's fighting, and is successful in the civilian world.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 3 at 2018 5:40 PM

2018-06-03T17:40:25-04:00

He needs to get a civilian lawyEr he needs to ignore anything csm or 1sg tell him, they make stuff up they are more like cops maki g a case than judge and jury , lastly he has to be prepared to go i front of a military separation board : the best he might be able to get is either honorable or other than honorable discharge neither of which will bar enlisting later : He can appeal to a separation board : problem with drug and alcohol is that there are multiple problems here 1 . If you are in treatment it’s a violation to drink or so drugs subject to article 15 2. If it’s not voluntary before offense to enroll you can be punished under ucmj 3 .each action that disobeyed a direct order can be subject o it’s on ucmj action . If he is serious about staying in what he needs to to do is get an attorney ASAP : he needs to get non - jag council , the military will pay for any attorney he wants , army has excellent lawyers however they tend to get overwhelmed on Dui cases . Second he needs to plan on pushing to a separation board : the upside is that separation boards are real easy to win because the bottom line is ignored he has good pt , good weapons scores , some military schools or has college education and is willing to deploy under any circumstances senior officers are less likely t vote for separation . It’s going to be a tough fight because you can’t get in trouble for Anything while serving discipline for ucmj it’s kind of like the rule in civilian law where if you break additional laws while breaking g the law the additional breakages become felonies . First if he really want d to stay in the army he really should have taken the first action as a wake up call. Second it’s really hard not to get kicked out of a peace time army :

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 3 at 2018 5:42 PM

2018-06-03T17:42:30-04:00

He most likely won’t be able to do anything because he violated command orders of all variety with the second offense and it seems like the command already gave him a second chance many get chapters with just a dui: separation board is his only hope

Response by MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2018 11:43 AM

2018-06-17T11:43:04-04:00

Sir, I'm going to be a little harsh because I think your son's life is on the line. I would really recommend that you shift your focus. You seem to be focusing on trying to find a loophole to keep your son in the Army. In my opinion, the focus should be on your son's apparent substance abuse problem. The fact that he used illegal drugs at the is bad enough, but to drink and drive afterward shows that he has no regard for consequences. That's addiction. You said he hasn't been serving long, so there's probably a good chance this isn't new behavior. I hope that he gets the help that he needs, but that's not going to happen as long as you continue to excuse his behavior like it's not that bad or not that big a deal. It is that bad, Sir. It is a big deal. You should start reaching out to family support groups through NarcAnon or some other addiction organization and see what your options are. All the best.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2018 2:50 PM

2018-06-17T14:50:50-04:00

I smell something fishy. But in my opinion, he had a positive UA, not the end of the world depending on his MOS/Security Clerance. But then he gets a DUI? That was his second chance. Thank you for your service and best of luck in your future endeavors, as long as they don’t involve the military.

Response by Cpl Bernard Bates made Jun 24 at 2018 8:54 PM

2018-06-24T20:54:39-04:00

Sounds like he hasn't grown up yet. How would you feel if he got sent to Afghanistan, Iraq or to the African command, because when I served from 59 to 66 that what would have happened. If you were a trouble maker you would have went were their was trouble. You son will probably get kicked out of the army. Then he will be someone else,s problem. In my day he would have went to Vietnam. Im not being hard with you Im just giving reality. I seen many kids get into the Marine corp then decide they didn't want to be their. The corp tried to straighten them out . Once you signed the papers your body belonged to the Corp for 3 or 4 yrs.

Response by SSgt Liam Babington made Jun 29 at 2018 3:07 PM

2018-06-29T15:07:35-04:00

Unless he can show to PTSD, TBI or both, which is defensible or something that is related therein, you will have an uphill battle! If your son was deployed, he will need to provide proof as such, orders, Line of Duty where he was hurt and it effected his well-being, then no. If it his first offense, then he can try and see about rehab. If his commander is a real bonehead, the option of Article 138 UCMJ.
But I recommend that he take swift action soon, Furthermore, DO NOT threaten anyone or anything! Just do it! Leave no room for second guessing. Know also that his stuff HAS TO be squared away....TOTALLY! I was an NCO in the Air Force and had to counsel subordinates before on this matter, I laid out the options with out holding anything back I did fight for my troops. Win or loose your son needs to take what I call "EXTREME OWNERSHIP" of his actions and failures. Be humble in his approach for his future and his well being! If he survives the ordeal and stays in, he must become a better Soldier than any of those around him. NO EXCEPTIONS!! If he makes this a career, no doubt he would be an experienced NCO. But to the here and now! Lastly, if he does get chaptered out, after a period of time and with positive proof, he can reenter the service, but must prove himself, The National Guard is one way, but again he will need to insure he can meet expectations! Here is a link or copy and paste to another internet window:

https://www.thebalancecareers.com/article-138-complaint-ucmj-3332814

Best wishes in what every the outcome is!!

How to File an Article 138 Complaint Under the UCMJ

Learn about Article 138, one of the most powerful rights under the UCMJ, and procedures for filing a complaint.

Response by Sgt Anthony Leverington made Jul 1 at 2018 8:54 AM

2018-07-01T08:54:33-04:00

Until recently, I had never heard the term "Chaptered Out" so, I can't really give an opinion on that except to say, be glad he's not getting a Dishonorable Discharge. From what little I do understand, there are several possible end results, only one or two of which he'd be able to return from.
Back when I was in, the legal drinking age was still 18 but with a military ID, it was 17 and on base, beer was dirt cheap ($7 for a case of Bud). There was a guy in our unit who at 17, became an alcoholic relatively quickly after arriving on our base because he simply couldn't drink in moderation. He never got a DUI but, did show up for duty several times severely hung over. He was given more than one chance to straighten out but, failed miserably. He received a dishonorable discharge and there's no coming back after that.

Response by LCpl Kevin Wiles made Jul 1 at 2018 3:41 PM

2018-07-01T15:41:11-04:00

He may or may not have a chance at staying in the military. I got NJP'd during my enlistment for one offense of drunken while on duty. Before my punishment was handed down, I was voluntold to go to in treatment substance abuse program. I went along with the program and was allowed to stay in the Marines. Also, I was told that they were gonna try and give me an other than honorable discharge. But it never happened and I received an Honorable Discharge. I didn't have any history of illegal drug use though. So his command may look a bit more differently on him. Under the UCMJ, there is a zero tolerance drug use policy. I would say he should expect the worst and have a plan for his life on the outside of the military. That's what I did before I knew the outcome in my situation.

Response by SP6 Jamauh Winston made Jul 6 at 2018 12:19 PM

2018-07-06T12:19:30-04:00

Sir,

My passion for service to country was conceived by watching John Wayne Saturday morning mantinee WWII black and white movies. Boy, was my initial impression of the Army warped. I enlisted in the US Army in May of 1989 and retired active duty May of 2009. I say this because, I too received an Article 15 for under aged drinking and for driving under the influence (DUI) on Fort Hood in Jun of 1989. That's right, 45 days extra duty and 45 days restriction to post. All of which taught me an invaluable lesson.
I recently ran across some of my old records, and I found the letter of reprimand from my Brigade Commander to the Post Commander which stated, "This soldier will probably not meet his first enlistment." Boy was he wrong! Luckily, I had some really good leaders and battle buddies that encouraged me to remain grounded. I know times are different but, hopefully, his leadership has the moral courage to punish the young solder accordingly, and the fortitude to provide him the leadership he so desires. Hang in there POP!

Response by CMDCM Kermit Cain made Jul 9 at 2018 2:19 AM

2018-07-09T02:19:38-04:00

The Navy's policy was ZERO tolerance so it sounds as if your son being in the Army was given one "free pass" and screwed it up. I personally did not and do not believe in a zero policy but rules are rules - there's no way your son could claim he wasn't aware since it's pounded into you concerning drug usage, drinking and driving, etc. Sorry to hear but he knew what he could and could not do and rolled the dice.

Response by SSG Jose M. Hernandezsanchez made Jul 10 at 2018 1:31 PM

2018-07-10T13:31:35-04:00

Sir,
For what I just read, and my personal interpretation of your son's situation, it has to be really bad for a unit to process him out. I personally made some bad choices when I was in the Army, involving alcohol which lead to a DUI. I can say that you and your son can't do anything about this. What's done is done, there is no turning back. Ok, he probably is a good kid, but that doesn't mean he can't make bad choices in life, in general. Relatively new to the Army? How long has he been in for? Maybe this needs to happen so he can wake up and make better choices.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 10 at 2018 7:02 PM

2018-07-10T19:02:26-04:00

He used up his chance by pissing hot. If he has a clearance that may be revoked making him useless

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Jul 10 at 2018 10:45 PM

2018-07-10T22:45:21-04:00

The kick in the butt you mention may be 18 years late in arriving.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jul 10 at 2018 10:47 PM

2018-07-10T22:47:13-04:00

Stick a fork in him because he is done.

Response by MSG John Duchesneau made Jul 11 at 2018 12:18 AM

2018-07-11T00:18:15-04:00

Yes - but he can't fight being stupid which is why he is being chaptered out. Sorry for being an Ahole but somebody has to say it!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2018 9:08 PM

2018-07-13T21:08:58-04:00

Sorry but I would recommend he gets out. Regardless of he is relatively new to the Army or not. He is more of a danger and a risk to those around him and that alone is not worth keeping him in. I wouldn't want someone like that to be with me in a combat situation. He is of questionable moral and ethical character and can't be fully relied on to make sound decisions. I know it seems harsh to hear but the truth is usually is. He may be a good kid but that doesn't mean he is a good soldier.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2018 2:08 AM

2018-07-14T02:08:10-04:00

First you need to get him some type of counseling. Drugs and DUI can mean something is wrong. Also when he gets chaptered out it’s going to be a shock and he could go into depression. They are going to strip him of everything and send him home, it’s going to shock him. He needs to find his next goal or “mission”. If he doesn’t have anything to motivate him that could be bad. Great people aren’t always great Soldiers. He just couldn’t adapt and that happens. It’s not the end of the world.

Response by Sgt Heriberto Salinas made Jul 14 at 2018 12:15 PM

2018-07-14T12:15:30-04:00

At this point, let's forget about his military career, and focus in on the rest of his life. It sounds like your son is making bad choices based on the company he keeps, so to speak... He needs to be around healthy people. People who don't do drugs, who don't drink, or behave in such a way that they seem to find themselves in trouble. Even if he is kicked out that doesn't mean his life is over. It just means he doesn't have a calling to be in the military. Nonetheless, he needs help! You as a parent, needs to see to it that he gets that help. Be pro active, pull out the disciplinary paddle if you have to. You are the parent and are responsible for telling him to straighten up his act. Drugs and alcohol do not allow you to be all you can be.

Response by 1SG Michael Farrell made Jul 19 at 2018 7:43 PM

2018-07-19T19:43:07-04:00

Been there, done that, fighting for a soldier who was basically self-destructing. Not pleasant and not effective. Anyone can retain civilian counsel, and sue but do you really think he's going to succeed in this effort and be a good soldier. Everytime he screws up, and he'll screw up good kid or not, he'll be under more and more pressure. Not because the NCOs and chain of command want to shaft him, but because he's a lousy soldier. Good soldiers don't use illegal drugs; good soldiers don't drink and drive. He probably should seek enrollment in mental health and substance abuse programs, but I think his best solution is to seek a general discharge under honorable conditions, and seek help from the VA after he separates.

Response by CPT Tom Rethard made Jul 21 at 2018 10:05 AM

2018-07-21T10:05:07-04:00

My knowledge of this type of action is seriously outdated (I’m from the Vietnam era) but i’m Going to toss my two cents in anyway. I was involved in three AR 635-212 hearings as prosecutor (nope, I’m not a lawyer) while I was in Vietnam. Assuming he is being chartered out under the same or similar reg, he should receive written notice of the action (not just verbal). After he received that notice, and if he requests it, he should get at least 10 days to prepare for a board hearing. He should immediately contact JAG and obtain representation. He will have the opportunity to present his case for retention at the hearing. Unlike a trial (Courts-Martial), anything can be presented as evidence, including hearsay. Without much of a positive record, it will be diffficult to make an argument for retention.

I’m sorry to say, but his chances for remaining in are small. The best he can hope for is to be released with an Honorable Discharge (unlikely if drugs and alcohol were involved), or maybe a General. The worst that can happened (remember that I am outdated) is an Undesirable Discharge. The good news is that, assuming he completes at least 180 days of active duty and receives something above an Undesirable Discharge, he’ll still be eligible for VA benefits.

He needs a good lawyer who is intimately familiar with the regs.

As for his chances: I won two Undesirables and a General in the three cases I prosecuted.

My advice to him is that, although it’s probably too late, he needs legal council now, but - and even more importantly - he needs to be a model soldier every day from now on, without even the smallest exception. And he needs to find different friends who can and will help him make better decisions.

Response by MSG Danny Mathers made Jul 21 at 2018 1:42 PM

2018-07-21T13:42:35-04:00

No.

Response by PO1 Rick Serviss made Jul 21 at 2018 3:07 PM

2018-07-21T15:07:45-04:00

Is he worth saving? I had a DUI at the mid-point of my career and the Navy sent me to rehab. Something bad happened that triggered it. I only had one offense in my career though. Unfortunately I'm not allowed to forget it because I still have to report it for my Security Clearance background check, called an SF 86. His second offense probably sealed his fate.

Response by James White made Jul 27 at 2018 2:01 PM

2018-07-27T14:01:25-04:00

Your son should consult with a private attorney (not JAG) that specializes in this field. After all, what evidence is there that he used the drugs or committed the DUI? That should be reviewed by impartial legal counsel. I recommend Steve Krupa or Heather Straub, both in Tacoma.

Response by SPC Trevor Benart made Jul 30 at 2018 5:33 PM

2018-07-30T17:33:44-04:00

I made the mistake of a DUI, even though my stuff was dropped on the civilian side the military has zero tolerance for these crimes. Back 10 years ago it may have been a different story but it's pretty much a guarentee hes getting chaptered. Best he can do is fight for his general with honorable conditions discharge. Hopefully he learns from his mistakes. I sure know I did. I had up to my csm fighting for me to stay. Came down to my cpt to make the decision. He did not want to take a chance due to being new to the unit and not knowing me. I was slotted for my wlc and working for my sgt promotion. Lost it all and it took a while to find a good paying job. Best of luck to him.

Response by SFC Tereasa Menke made Jul 31 at 2018 7:47 PM

2018-07-31T19:47:33-04:00

Nope!!!! He needs help and the army doesn’t have time to reform yur drunk child!!

Response by SPC Frank Shiffer made Aug 1 at 2018 11:57 PM

2018-08-01T23:57:01-04:00

Hard to argue, but what is his status, still honorable? If not, then perhaps we pause..

Response by SGT Phelan Hoover made Aug 3 at 2018 11:38 PM

2018-08-03T23:38:22-04:00

I suggest, that you get an attorney if you dont want him to go to the Stockade. Screwing up like that, the Army likes to train as a team and then when you screw up is on you. In a way is a real immature way of the government to protect there assets in the best way possible of having people trained. I used to do what the military told me to do, didnt question the chain of command. Didnt do drugs, never drank and was hooah. Did ten years four tours in Iraq. There was soldier in the barracks who were doing drugs. The chai. Of command didnt want to do nothing about. Guess what I figured out why Obama was president. So the military isnt always geared toward, what is right or wrong in doing what is best for the country reguardless of how they spin it. Let's say with me, my PTSD from the military was never confirmed and the crap mental health services. Was force feeding me medication that didnt have nothing to do with PTSD. All the while, I knew what was going on with me, Chain of command higher ups was getting on my ass about going. Like, I was embarrassing them even I'm some sort of way. Reguardless of there long term alcohol abuse themselves quite a few of them. Long story short. The soldiers who were doing drugs weren't arrested. From my old division that rhymes with scareborne. They discharged me with an OTH after serving all that time. So you know what I suggest get ahold of his commander and ask him or her. To just let him out as soon as possible. Becuase even though what these higher up Non-Commissioned officers are telling you. There is a whole lot that they aren't telling you too *wink* *wink* for the sake of the country. They pretty much, expect kids to be grown when they get in. They put forth efforts to make it known, not to do these things. That is for sure, I have never done it and are honeslty relatively disgusted, becuase what you son is consider is disgusting to the service. So try your best to get him out before he is rushed by the chain of command to the stockade.

Response by CWO2 M J made Aug 11 at 2018 6:39 PM

2018-08-11T18:39:54-04:00

The entire military went zero tolerance on drugs about a decide ago. DUI he could fight, but drug charge is an automatic BCD. He may be able to fight that with the army records board later, but the DUI on top of the drug charge will make that highly unlikely to succeed.

Response by COL Dave Sims made Aug 13 at 2018 5:07 PM

2018-08-13T17:07:38-04:00

Back before there were chapter discharges, and I was a company commander, it was almost impossible to discharge soldiers with alcohol or drug issues. The impact on unit morale was devastating. My first month in command I gave out 29 Article 15s and referred at least 4 soldiers for Special Court Martials...all of these being for offenses such as assault, failure to repair, AWOL, insubordination, etc.. What these all had in common was a link to alcohol and drug abuse. No training was provided to NCOs on dealing with these sort of problems...and there was no effective remedy. I used to review the personnel files of my "problem children"...and wonder how these kids got recruited in the first place. Chapter discharges solved a lot of these problems because you deal with the troublemakers in a timely manner. The Army and the other services have learned that lesson .... the military is not a social service organization. My only other thought on this is that we still need to keep an eye on the recruiters....and make sure they are not pressured into recruiting marginal candidates.

Response by MAJ Bruce Davie made Aug 18 at 2018 11:56 AM

2018-08-18T11:56:16-04:00

Good kid or not, illegal drugs + dui = chapter discharge.

Response by SGT Chester Beedle made Aug 20 at 2018 8:45 AM

2018-08-20T08:45:40-04:00

This isn't during the height of Iraq and Afghanistan when the Army needed people badly. It's going back to the nearly zero tolerance of the 90s when any drug use would get you kicked out without a second chance.
DUIs would sometimes be cause for a second chance if a lower rank and in the US. Higher ranks or overseas and people would be chaptered out very quickly.
Once you are caught you can't use rehab as a way to not get kicked out. Too late at that point.
He got busted using drugs, then a week later put other people at risk by drinking and driving. He's a good kid sure. He used up any possibility of a second chance almost immediately.

Response by SFC Robert Baumgardner Jr. made Aug 20 at 2018 8:26 PM

2018-08-20T20:26:06-04:00

Your son maybe a good kid, but unfortunately he's providing he is not a good soldier. The first mistake (illegal drug use) was his opportunity to make a change. His second mistake drinking and driving was one to many. This indicates a pattern of bad judgment the military has a low tolerance for bad judgment.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2018 11:08 PM

2018-08-20T23:08:20-04:00

Dad as a recently retired Senior NCO I will tell you this I don't know you or your son but it seems like you are part of the problem! He is a man, He made the choice to join the Army just like he made the choice to do drugs and to drink and drive. When he gets chaptered and when he comes home make him make his own choice to fix himself but be there for him no matter what happens.

Response by 1SG Ernest Stull made Aug 22 at 2018 6:23 PM

2018-08-22T18:23:08-04:00

He was told the consequences of using drugs and drinking and driving when in basic. He decided to play Russian roulette twice and lost. Now he must pay for his mistakes. Sorry.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2018 2:00 AM

2018-08-27T02:00:31-04:00

Your asking this question is indicative of why your son can not follow rules. Quit protecting him, you did it his whole life so now he assumes there will be someone there to clean up his messes.

In this case, there isn't...

Response by SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM made Aug 28 at 2018 9:28 AM

2018-08-28T09:28:51-04:00

He's lucky they gave him a chance with the drugs but DUI, That's hell of nice commander who keeps him in the ARMY. I wouldn't
sorry

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Aug 28 at 2018 2:59 PM

2018-08-28T14:59:56-04:00

I have seen people chaptered for far less, he screwed the pooch, and now must be take his licks for his actions. Depending on the type of discharge, he may get a shot at the guard or reserve, but I would not bank to much money on that one. Odds are he will have to spend some time out of service to show a pattern of improvement and keep his nose clean, he , just may get a shot and at having his discharged improved (that may take years). A better solution is he needs to clean up his act when he gets home, and you may wish to let him rock bottom and rebuild himself. Taking him back in, will only enable him, as he has a fall back. The harder more painful choice may be for him to work this out on his own and get his head screwed on correctly before you let him back in the door.

Response by Col Chris Ceplecha made Aug 28 at 2018 10:06 PM

2018-08-28T22:06:53-04:00

As a 3 time commander (now retired) I can bluntly say that 2% of the command problem children occupied 95% of my time. It decreased unit combat effectiveness. Your son may, and I mean may, have a shot at remaining in by convincing the command (First Sergeant and Commander) that he will pull his head out of his ass and be a productive member of the unit, increasing combat effectiveness verse decreasing it. Personally, once someone demonstrated they were a liability to the unit, I would ensure they were gone. Combat is too serious to waste time on problem children. He had his chance, and it is up to the command whether or not he remains.

Response by SFC Larry Jones made Aug 30 at 2018 1:14 AM

2018-08-30T01:14:21-04:00

In a word, no.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Aug 30 at 2018 4:07 PM

2018-08-30T16:07:10-04:00

Sir,

From a commanders point of view, I probably wouldn't have given him the first chance after the drug use. In our ranks there has to be trust and trust is earned. I have to know that my soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, or coasties will be ready at a moments notice to take up arms and cover my back and they need to know that I will cover theirs. The fact that he did illegal drugs breaks that bond of trust. Years ago he couldn't have even come in with any prior drug use...that is how hard the stance is on drug use. Now you couple that with a DUI when he hasn't even gotten over his first offense only seals the deal for me. I can't put my faith and trust in his ability to make good sound and solid judgment calls in a peacetime environment, how can I trust him with my fellow comrades in arms in battle and when he is under fire to do what he swore to do under oath. I am sure he is a good kid that made bad decisions but unfortunately we cannot have that in our ranks...we just hold our young men and women to a higher standard. Hopefully he can learn from this in the civilian world and recoup and move forward.

Response by Sgt Wayne Wood made Aug 30 at 2018 4:41 PM

2018-08-30T16:41:03-04:00

It’s an all-volunteer force... he wasn’t drafted. One would hope military service wasn’t offered as an alternative to jail...

Follow the rules or pack your trash. We can afford to be picky.

Response by CSM Andrew Perrault made Aug 30 at 2018 5:08 PM

2018-08-30T17:08:31-04:00

Drugs and DUI's are death sentences in the military he did both.....he had been doing really well? Or just hadn't been caught?. Soldiers are told repeatedly NOT to drink and drive it's said over and over.....and drugs can't be tolerated ever......who wants a guy on drugs on guard duty or in combat....Sorry there Dad he needs to go.....

Response by MAJ James Woods made Aug 30 at 2018 6:38 PM

2018-08-30T18:38:56-04:00

Short answer...yes he can fight it. Problem is the zero tolerance environment for drug and alcohol related charges that leads to UCMJ and Chapter procedures.

HE should’ve been enrolled in ASAP after the first drug offense if it was a minor one but the moment he became a repeat offender he made his case much harder.

They never should’ve offered to transfer him to another unit nor suggest that was a possibility.

Response by SPC Javontae Eaddy made Aug 31 at 2018 11:30 AM

2018-08-31T11:30:48-04:00

No...but drug & alcohol rehabilitation, therapy, and some self evaluation may do the trick

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2018 6:31 AM

2018-09-02T06:31:32-04:00

With the first offense, I honestly doubt the punishment would have been minor but there are avenues depending on what drug the member used. However, many folks have been discharged for illegal drug use or drinking and driving alone. With these combined offenses, and in such close proximity of one another, he has provided enough justification that he is not fit for military service. You must remember that military members may be in situations where they have to make very important decisions. These decisions can have great impact on the lives of themselves, other soldiers, or our allies. If a member cannot make decisions that follow the laws of their home station, it is hard to trust them to make sound decisions down range. It may be unfortunate, but your son should look at this as an opportunity to start over outside the service.

Response by SSgt Max Gonzales made Sep 2 at 2018 11:04 PM

2018-09-02T23:04:24-04:00

I'm not a lawyer,but drug use is prohibited at any time. Adding drinking and driving just added fuel to a flame that got out of control. Either one could lead to medical or dishonorable discharge. If the ucmj is lenient they may try rehab,but with both charges highly unlikely.

Response by SPC Chris Ison made Sep 9 at 2018 1:32 PM

2018-09-09T13:32:05-04:00

Nope. E-4 and below it is the commanders discretion, but E-5 and above automatic discharge. His CO may be pressured by the BN or higher to release your son, either way, he can fight it but he will lose. What he did amounts to failure to comply with a DIRECT order. And they have him dead to rights. At this point the best thing he can hope for is a non punitive discharge. They will offer him a other than honorable discharge, he can request an admin board, and pitch his case to them for a general or even an honorable discharge, the bad news is unless he comes off Active Duty with an ACTUAL Honorable he will lose his GI bill benefits, period.

Furthermore, even if they let him stay in, 99% of the time he will be given a "bar to reenlistment" which is an R (restricted) code for reenlistment, and not allowed to reenlist. I think there are two forms of this, i know that one of them is an RE-4 and that means no reenlistment ever; however, that too can be overcome by another branch. Although generally speaking since the air force, coast guard, and marine corps are so small they won't mess with any R code. You MIGHT be able to get the Navy to wave that.

The good news is after 6 months his discharge can be upgraded to honorable, if he has no other issues with civilian authority and he will have access to all of his VA benefits EXCEPT the GI bill; i can not emphasize this enough YOU MUST HAVE AN HONORABLE DISCHARGE FROM AD, not an upgrade, upgrades don't count, for the GI Bill.

So, just in the interest of full disclosure as you are going to have people tell you different shit than i did, I was Discharged from the Navy with an Honorable discharge, but i had an RE-4 discharge code. after a year of being out of the Navy, i decided i wanted to go back on AD, so i went to the army, they waved my RE-4 code, and allowed me to enlist in the army reserve, i could not go on AD because i had 4 years of AD and i was an E-3 ( i had gotten busted down, that is part of why i had the RE-4 code). However, once you are in the reserves, you can petition to go on AD, and as such that is a back door into AD time.

I had a soldier who was in my Humvee who had gotten a bar to reenlistment from the army while on Ad at Schofield Barracks in Hawaii; he was able to go into the national guard, which is another back door to ad. I had heard of this for other soldiers too.

My suggestion is simple, have your son fight for the best non punitive discharge he can; if he can avoid a court martial that is the best thing. Have him come home and go to a j.c., for a year or so, keep his nose clean, get his discharge upgraded, and then join the reserves or national guard, serve a year or two there, while still attending school, and then petition for AD again.

What is the worst thing that can happen to him? he gets two or three years of a college education, and the Army or Navy says no? Not really a bad deal.

College is easier to pay for than most people think. Just avoid trade schools like ITT, Concord, and Devry they are scams always.

Response by PO1 Mary Vermont made Sep 13 at 2018 10:07 AM

2018-09-13T10:07:40-04:00

He didnt just make a mistake, he made two and one was a zero tolerance mistake

Response by Jerry Rivas made Sep 16 at 2018 10:21 PM

2018-09-16T22:21:12-04:00

He is toast.

Response by LTC Ray Morris made Sep 17 at 2018 11:47 PM

2018-09-17T23:47:07-04:00

The Army is not, and should not be, a rehab facility. Too many lives depend upon everyone being able to do their jobs at 100% capability, 24/7. I know NCO's who were chaptered out due to drug or alcohol use. In the war zone, I was the cause on one of them being released. I have no regrets. Your son was given a second chance, something few soldiers get, and he chose to squander it. I hope he learns from it and becomes a pillar of society in a new career that he may be better suited for.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 24 at 2018 7:12 AM

2018-09-24T07:12:13-04:00

Well, I will say yes he has the right to defend himself and if he wants to stay in fight for it. Now Dad.... if you pay for any of this you are the problem as you are enabling his behavior. He has to want to fix it and suffer the consequences of doing so. So don't bail him out....
However, if Congress and elected officials were held to the same standards as we were, there would be no one in Congress.

I think it is funny that we all have more than likely dine something that would have been grounds for removal from service. Drinking and driving and not caught. Stupid comments or posts. I can go on and on... Bottom line is that the Army needs to practice what it speaks or just shut up with the "fake news." At Command Course they tell you to underwrite mistakes and empower subordinates to make decisions within your intent and guidance. Well news flash... we don't really want to underwrite mistakes.
Unless we start doing that we will run out of leaders and Soldiers. So I will assume all those throwing stones here have never done anything that could have gotten them removed from service during your career. Sorta sucks for you because you cannot relate to your Soldiers and have no good, "no shit there we were" stories to break the tension with your Soldiers.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2018 6:11 PM

2018-09-30T18:11:03-04:00

If your son decides to figtg this it could turn into a courts martial which would give him a federal conviction on his record that will haunt him the rest of his life as well as a dishonorable discharge which will stay there and limit his ability for employment as the conviction will be fot substance abuse. I had a young man that pretty much was in the same position try to fight a chapter and wound up in a federal pen for substance abuse he was only 19 at the time spent 5 years in prison and a dishonorable discharge so be careful in what and how he goes forward as it could piss off the commander even more and get escalated to courts martial.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 1 at 2018 6:57 AM

2018-10-01T06:57:20-04:00

Back in the late 80’s I was stationed at Ft. Hood, Tx. There were some soldiers smoking marijuana inside a tank on a live fire excise when they fired on another tank killing all inside.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2018 6:50 PM

2018-10-04T18:50:53-04:00

Unfortunately, he will probably be given a General Discharge Under Honorable Conditions that will limit some of his VA benefits. He can apply for a discharge upgrade through the VA after 6 months and he will be able to receive all of the benefits that he’s earned.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2018 10:50 AM

2018-10-10T10:50:53-04:00

There is nothing he can do, even war heroes are not exempt from being chaptered once they are targeted. The Army has gone away from rehab and retrain . They instead want them to be quiet, don't argue, don't make waves,be skinny and pass the pt test. HOUAH

Response by SFC Joseph Lumpkins made Oct 27 at 2018 8:39 AM

2018-10-27T08:39:01-04:00

Sorry but as a senior NCO, I might give your son one break, but after being popped for drug use he goes out and commits another mayor breach of trust, I wouldn’t want him in my Army

Response by SPC Tommy Dean made Oct 29 at 2018 10:27 AM

2018-10-29T10:27:30-04:00

As this string is 6 months old. How did this work out for your son? if you don't mind me asking.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2018 11:25 PM

2018-11-06T23:25:17-05:00

Not likely. You son did learn from his first mistake and must deal with the consequences of his poor decision. As a retired Colonel I wouldn’t give him a second chance after he took drug. The Army has rules for reason. I hope he can get some help when he discharged. Hopefully he won’t get a dishonorable discharge.
COL J

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2018 6:25 PM

2018-11-08T18:25:42-05:00

Nope.

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Nov 14 at 2018 8:30 AM

2018-11-14T08:30:58-05:00

@ Anonymous Okay I am going to answer the initial question and go forward from there. Yes he can fight it. But it is going to be costly and I will BET he loses. Several things are not being said so one can only guess at outcomes and decisions and chances given. He was found using illegal drugs. The punishment Minor. In thanking the people that went easy on him in less time than his punishment would take he went out and made a second poor choice. Then being given another chance a transfer and a substance abuse program. Now they are telling him he will be chaptered Out. Chapter out after being put into a substance abuse program generally means He was failing the Program for one or more reasons. It appears some information is missing here. Then again somethings may be not as they seem.
His chain of command may have told him in writing on the first poor choice that if any thing remotely close to Illegal happen again he would be chaptered, Then in two weeks he gets a DUI for warned is for armed. Now the Military will spend the money to try to rehab him and it is not going well and so they will either chapter him after finishing and or failing the program. However he may be chaptered while in the program because of additional events.

It would be prudent at this time to realize that his bad conduct far out weights His good in cost and in man power. The Military has something called cost effective, at this point I would think it is not cost effective to keep him in rehab programs and hope he will become a productive Soldier. Let us remember while he is in this situation he is no longer an asset to the Military he CANNOT Deploy because other Soldiers need to Depend on him and he has already made it clear that has an ability to be un trust worthy at this point. Time for him to move on to something that he can be better at. Regards

Response by MSgt Thelbert (Whitey) Roark made Nov 17 at 2018 10:36 PM

2018-11-17T22:36:39-05:00

He had his second chance. Now it’s time for him to suck it up and take what’s coming to him.
In my career I escorted more than one “good kid” to the front gate and waved goodbye. I don’t feel bad about a single one of them. You only get so many chances in life and you son burned through his. Time to pursue another path.

Response by CW5 Robert Allen made Nov 20 at 2018 9:30 AM

2018-11-20T09:30:29-05:00

Simple answer - NO. Consider himself lucky he is only being chaptered and not facing UCMJ first.

Response by SSG Omar Ruiz-Canales made Nov 20 at 2018 9:50 AM

2018-11-20T09:50:47-05:00

If he would have self referred he would have had a better chance.. the way the military sees it 2 tops incidents so close together, they probably think he has ni respect for military rules, guidelines and standards. Im pretty sure there arent too many NCOs that wanna get tasked with having to ensure your son stays in tje atraight and narrow, or having to escort him around to historical ngs, many times causing NCOs to lose personal time with their families and such.

Response by SPC Dean J. Thompson made Nov 25 at 2018 9:43 PM

2018-11-25T21:43:54-05:00

With the services downsizing, if command said he will be chaptered then it is going to happen...Sorry.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2018 10:36 AM

2018-11-28T10:36:39-05:00

So military service shouldn't be viewed as an opportunity for a career path, but rather an opportunity to protect our country. If a Soldier demonstrates behavior that could be a determent to our country's security, then he/she should try something else. There are plenty of other people that can handle this responsibility.

Response by SFC Regina Boyd made Nov 30 at 2018 6:59 PM

2018-11-30T18:59:39-05:00

Unfortunately, sir, your son is a grown man. He has to live his life; you can't live it form him. He made these choices and now has to suffer the consequences. Does that sound harsh? It should. He needs to be held accountable for his actions. He may not have succeeded in the military, but that doesn't mean he can't succeed in civilian life. Don't enable him. Now he needs to learn that when one door closes, another one opens and where he goes is up to him. Not you. Him. It hurts you and you feel badly for your son, but he needs to learn from this. Not you. Your son.

Response by CPT Don Kemp made Dec 2 at 2018 11:16 PM

2018-12-02T23:16:58-05:00

As a parent, I’d echo your sentiments. As a former NCO & Officer, I’d be willing to bet the drug use and DUI were just the icing on the cake. I’d grind him under the heel of my boot.
I know from first hand experience. My 2LT son was discharged after testing positive in a random urinalysis. Paid back over $40,000 in scholarships. I told him the same thing.

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Jan 5 at 2019 8:30 AM

2019-01-05T08:30:58-05:00

The Army has a policy, you may not agree.
You are responsible for everything you do or fail to do.
That's it.
He is out.

Response by SSG David Rollins made Jan 5 at 2019 5:34 PM

2019-01-05T17:34:15-05:00

As a former Personel Officer, if the command has started Chapter proceedings, there is no recourse!

Response by CPL Brian Clouser made Jan 6 at 2019 6:41 PM

2019-01-06T18:41:48-05:00

If the powers that be think that a Substance Abuse program will help your son AND if his Sgt and Plt. Sgt think so chances are that they will try the program otherwise it's an O.T.H. discharge The military policy on drug abuse may seem hard but it there for a reason..like the Forrestal fire

Response by CWO2 Shelby DuBois made Jan 18 at 2019 9:15 AM

2019-01-18T09:15:44-05:00

Is he someone I'd want my son to have to rely on? This isn't a corporate office or a retail store where a bad decision means a few dollars lost or a customer gets angry. As an adult we make our own decisions and have to live with the consequences. He was responsible for his own actions and now he's accountable for them. I hope, that since this was first published he's found a career he can enjoy and have success in.

Response by MSG Michael McEleney made Jan 18 at 2019 1:22 PM

2019-01-18T13:22:42-05:00

There are several things he could have done.
1. The military services are known to be zero tolerance on drugs and alcohol abuse. He got caught and was given the chance to rehab. I’m sure he was given a lot of counseling about substance abuse and the consequences of another incident.

2. He then compounded his problem by getting the DUI, you didn’t say if he was under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

He had the chance of rehab, but went out and did it again. While endangering lives in a vehicle.

Your son Is an adult and made adult choices-bad choices. If he were retained in the Army he would make more bad choices and endanger more lives.

Response by PO1 Richard Norton made Jan 23 at 2019 1:29 PM

2019-01-23T13:29:26-05:00

When I retired from the navy in 1996 it was pretty much zero tolerance for drugs or DUI. Exception where occasionally made for DUI, but you had to have been an otherwise outstanding sailor and be in a job field that they really needed.

Response by Sgt Don Whiteley made Jan 25 at 2019 11:28 AM

2019-01-25T11:28:51-05:00

It's not the army's responsibility to rehabilitate your son. At his age, he knew taking drugs and driving drunk were illegal and he chose to do them anyhow. The best you can do is let your son take the responsibility and consequences of his actions, but help him learn from the experience.

Response by CPO Christopher Wadman made Jan 25 at 2019 1:28 PM

2019-01-25T13:28:08-05:00

The short answer is yes. The long answer is that it would be virtually impossible for him to win. He has not demonstrated that keeping him would be in the best interest of the service.

Response by MSG Thomas Currie made Jan 25 at 2019 4:33 PM

2019-01-25T16:33:53-05:00

I'm sure you think he's a good kid, but he has proven that he isn't a good soldier and isn't likely to ever be a good soldier. Being chaptered out is probably the best thing that can happen to him, because the almost certain consequence of his inevitable next "bad choice" would be court martial conviction (which is a federal felony on his record) and a bad conduct discharge.

Response by SSG Norbert Johnson made Jan 25 at 2019 6:38 PM

2019-01-25T18:38:16-05:00

I have a prejudice in this matter, and therefore I request your understanding. I was a Social Actions Drug and Alcohol Control NCO with the USAF and a Behavioral Science Specialist (Assist NCOIC Social Work/Social Service Madigan Army Hosp). Further I was also a Retention NCO for the Army. While you can fight every action of Dismissal/Chapter, etc., Is the fight worth it when considering the ramifications in relationship to Others pattern's of misconduct. It is almost like seeding the field with hope that disruptive individuals can remain in spite of their injuries to the uniform. Individuals demonstrating Patterns of misconduct should never remain in uniform. Taking Drugs is a CHOICE. Drinking is also a CHOICE. When you choose to Drive under the influence of any mind altering drug of choice, that is a crime.. but worse yet, it is premeditated and there is no excuse for that. Take the Chapter discharge and when he can grow up and rehabilitate, there are waivers that can be gained to re-enter the service if he has something to offer the service in a skill set that is needed. Remember the Military owes you nothing. Everything you get is EARNED. In this case he earned the discharge.

Response by PVT Karl Goode made Jan 25 at 2019 11:26 PM

2019-01-25T23:26:17-05:00

Adaps

Response by PVT Karl Goode made Jan 25 at 2019 11:29 PM

2019-01-25T23:29:41-05:00

I've known people who have fought it and won. He just needs to get with JAG and seriously buckle down and show he can do it. He needs to be proactive and sell mseek help at adapc and with donate program at whatever base he's at. It wouldn't hurt for him to go up the chain to talk to him as well to say he really wants to stay in and show that he can be a good soldier. No it's just going to take determination hard work and persistence. And he's absolutely going to have to be super high speed and show them he's got what it takes

Response by LTC Zachary Hubbard made Jan 26 at 2019 8:37 PM

2019-01-26T20:37:05-05:00

Good people often make bad decisions. Unfortunately, your son made some bad decisions that will follow him for a very long time. Very sad, but there's little he or you can do to fix the situation! Life is about choices. I wrote this article for my newspaper column a long time ago:

https://divinesimplicity.wordpress.com/2018/05/25/enduring-truths-for-recent-grads-7/

Enduring Truths for Recent Grads

Several years ago I wrote an articlefor my newspaper column with some advice for recent grads.It hasbecome one of the most popular pieces Iever wrote. I received dozens of emails thanking me …

Response by PO2 Richard Blakey made Jan 27 at 2019 2:12 AM

2019-01-27T02:12:18-05:00

he mad up not like old day

Response by SPC Christopher Perrien made Jan 27 at 2019 9:25 AM

2019-01-27T09:25:11-05:00

I would like to know what happened in this case?

As to the topic itself , the zero-tolerance policies the military have are a bunch of crap. Good soldiers get thrown out for smoking pot? LOL, A joke. The more serious/dangerous drugs , yea I can see . For pot somebody would have to be "stoned" on duty(and therefore a hazard to themselves and others) for me to see kicking them out.

As to DUI , again, if somebody is endangering themselves and others , yes serious crime, and should be kicked out . But too many are for .08-.10 , especially around military bases where cops often pull over servicemen at night and weekends just to see if they can nail them for 2-3 beers, which puts them over the line. Saw that too many times around Ft. Polk .

Both these "drug use" issues need to be judged a case to case basis. The draconian zero-tolerance laws , the military has, are a waste of my tax dollars. A don''t want to see a few 100K of training and months to years of experience , thrown away, because somebody smoked a joint days or weeks before, or blew a BAC of .08 or .10. that is frigging asinine. Sure somebody high or drunk on duty, or "drunk" and hazarding other others on the roads, need to go. Guys catching some "bad luck" , first time ? 2 weeks Extra duty, 2nd time 30, days ED and a rank , 3rd time out. Zero tolerance wastes my taxes and lowers readiness

Response by MAJ Geiter Dunn made Jan 27 at 2019 9:41 AM

2019-01-27T09:41:31-05:00

Yes, he can fight it. He can ask fit a court-martial. No, they don't have to give him another chance.

Response by SGT Eric Dempsey made Jan 27 at 2019 10:18 AM

2019-01-27T10:18:22-05:00

There isn't anything your son can do to stay in. He violated three major articles of UCMJ: illegal drug use (which the military has a zero tolerance policy), DUI, and disobeying commands by a Commissioned Office. Safety briefs are mandatorily given before every weekend so the soldiers are know what is expected by them. Given the chapter your son will be getting, he will get either a bad conduct or dishonorable discharge.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2019 1:13 PM

2019-01-27T13:13:50-05:00

The Army has zero tolerance for drugs. ANY Soldier caught using Drugs is an automatic you out.
Had he only had the drinking and driving they would have placed him in rehab and went from there. Alcohol Issues the Army will keep you and put you through rehab. Drug use is 10000% you are out. I am sure he is a good kid but he was briefed this over and over again. If your urine sample test positive for drugs you will be put out the Army.

Response by Debby Deal Warthen made Jan 27 at 2019 4:28 PM

2019-01-27T16:28:18-05:00

Sir, I am not a member of the military so my opinion may not stand for anything. As a teacher, I want to alert you to his pattern of behavior. Teens and twenty somethings often feel invincible and when we see a mistake happen the odds are it is not the first one. I would encourage your son, regardless of what happens with the military, to seek counseling both drug and alcohol. As a parent I would research and know everything I could do that I could hopefully see if things were not straightening up. I see too many parents and young people who discover things are much worse than they seem and the family is headed down a long, difficult road. Just my opinion. I wish the best to you and your son.

Response by SP5 Dennis Loberger made Jan 27 at 2019 7:56 PM

2019-01-27T19:56:35-05:00

Based on your input, he is guilty of both offenses. Can he fight his chapter out? He can go to JAG for their help. Based on their input he can make a decision as to whether fight or not. I was a company clerk in my day. I drafted plenty of Article 15s, had a legal clerk as a friend and shared stories of court martials in combat and non combat areas. In all likelihood, his efforts in opposition will be to no avail. I can see a CO deciding he needs to go and don't have a good argument against that decision . There are some good lessons here for your son. It is also likely he will have an even greater appreciation for those soldiers who make it. There is a small percentage of people in our country who are successful soldiers. There are many people who carry on with successful career after difficult service. Your son certainly can as well. He may actually be a better associate in a business than he would have otherwise. He is not necessarily a bad kid. There are many good young men like your son who are simply not cut out to be a soldier where poor decisions can have very serious consequences

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2019 10:45 AM

2019-01-28T10:45:48-05:00

Tell him to go to rehab regardless. after he completes rehab have him contact JAG. i have personally been through this myself with 3 failed urine tests. I was discharged then reinstated. Not promising this is going to get him back in but it is his best opition at this time

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made Jan 28 at 2019 7:05 PM

2019-01-28T19:05:31-05:00

NO. He's DONE. Pure and simple.

Response by SFC Carlos Cruz made Jan 28 at 2019 7:05 PM

2019-01-28T19:05:46-05:00

The decision by your son was unprofessional & unfortunately he wasn’t able to evaluate his behavior before making shut mistakes.

The good news is he will be separated Under Other than Honorable Conditions; Bad Conduct; and Dishonorable.

Based on his discharge he my be able to reverse it after a time period based on his separation.

The Army is real big on discharging folks for bad behavior & Drugs & DUI is what we Consider career killer therefore he will return home.

When one enter the military there are many outstanding Officers as well NCOIC who will always help any soldiers as long he or she approach them with their problems before it get out off control.

He did all the wrong thing the destroy his career, mom isn’t your fault you did your best.

Response by Lt Col John Culley made Jan 28 at 2019 7:25 PM

2019-01-28T19:25:59-05:00

Your son should have an MRI to see if he has a pituitary disorder like a Rathke's cleft cyst. Some people who use drugs and alcohol are self-medicating to try to deal with a birth defect affecting the brain which wasn't their fault.

Response by SPC Vonnie Jones made Jan 28 at 2019 9:01 PM

2019-01-28T21:01:23-05:00

Speaking as a mother and Vet, we want the best for our children. Your son may be a good guy, making a mistake doesn't make your a bad guy. However one thing your son has proven is that he needs help. He used illegal drugs (knowing that if caught he would be in trouble) then a few weeks later he is caught (drinking and driving). I know some answers you received may have sounded insensitive, but they are true. When you take the oath, you are bound to the mission of the military. Integrity is what you are and do when know one is looking. The military is not in the business of raising children, but they are in the business of developing character.
I have seen death of soldiers in peace time by careless acts by other soldiers. I don't know if you are the father or mother, but can you imagine someone using drugs carrying a weapon that can take a life? or driving a vehicle that could take a life? there is no way to recover from that? No mother or father, wife or husband wants to meet there loved one on an air force field in a flag draped coffin. I am so sorry to say that good kid he may be, but his acts jeopardize not only his life, but the lives of others. Don't think mistakes like this have not been made by some of the older military and some of the higher rank. With that being said, punishment should be the same, but to be honest some times its not that is life. Sometimes rank does have its privileges (everyone don't beat me up for that). I say that because that is just life.
I do believe your son needs help, I don't know if he will be chaptered out or not, because there is always more to the story. Did he have the problem before he came in? or did he develop the problem while serving? There is help for substance abuse, but will the strain of being a soldier compromise his healing? There are other ways to serve the country, there are also other ways for personal development and growth other than the military. Sometimes people come back in after getting it together. For now make sure that your son gets the help he needs, in or out of the military.
Best regards

Response by SFC Jeff Stevenson made Jan 29 at 2019 12:34 AM

2019-01-29T00:34:07-05:00

I have to agree with CSM Durr. After retiring and working extensively with S.F. I would not want someone who had made a choice to take illegal drugs and then within a couple weeks, was arrested for DUI. The military cannot accept mistakes of that gravity. Those are 2 serious issues, and the best for the military is to remove the problem, unfortunately your son. The Army is not to raise and nurture, and that is the parents job, which I assume you've done to the best of your ability. But now he has made adult decisions, and is getting an adult result. The military is not a place to grow and party, its a serious place of business, and those who make poor decisions, should be removed.

Response by MSG Darren Gaddy made Jan 29 at 2019 8:06 PM

2019-01-29T20:06:32-05:00

In my opinion, once a Soldier gets into trouble There is no saying he or she is a good Soldier but made bad decisions. He/she is not a good Soldier in my opinion. Good Soldiers don’t make these types of decisions. Good Soldiers consider the consequences of their choices. This Soldier consciously chose to violate not only the UCMJ but also criminal law. Sometimes you only get one chance and this is how he chose to use his. As a 1SG, my only recommendation would be Chapter. Maybe with one or the other ther might be a glimmer of light, but both shows a pattern of misconduct and warrants a chapter. There is no recourse at this point.

Response by MAJ Ramon Claudio made Jan 30 at 2019 3:29 AM

2019-01-30T03:29:39-05:00

I think that you can best help your son by helping him see that there are consequences for our actions. The “my son is a good boy” argument is not persuasive when it comes to the military, and frankly, with most professions.
Your son had the best opportunity to demonstrate he deserved a second chance when he committed his first offense. How ironic that perhaps some commander would have given him a second chance after his first offense, but we see now that he would have disappointed everyone who would have believed in him. The military should not be used for social experimenting, too many lives are at stake. The best thing you can do now is hope that he’ll approach civilian life with the determination to succeed and not use his discharge as an excuse to hide behind each time he messes up.
I wish you and your son the best.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2019 9:25 AM

2019-01-30T09:25:09-05:00

Zero Tolerance Policy. OTH Discharge. Sorry, but actions and decisions have consequences. Retention sends the wrong message to the members of the unit and undermines good order and discipline. I hope your son corrects his ways, works hard, and is successful in his future endeavors.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2019 11:59 AM

2019-01-30T11:59:48-05:00

As a retired military officer, who had Uniform Code of Military Justice authority over Soldiers, like your son, I will provide some perspective:
1. Sometime the level of authority that prefers charges over a Soldier is withheld to a higher level that those who could see the "otherwise really great Soldier". My point being, just because others see him as a good kid, they might not get a vote.
2. Generally, even if he is allowed to remain, there are many jobs requiring a security clearance in which he may be denied. Depending on his technical field (MOS), he may not be allowed to remain without a clearance.
3. Today's military is not at a shortage. What this means is, they can be fairly selective in who they recruit and who the retain.
4. He made two very significant bad choices. Both of which could have negatively affected someone else's life. Despite what a good kid he is, demonstrating his lack of concern for his fellow Soldiers makes him a high risk for a commander.
For the above reasons, it would be very very difficult to recommend he be retained and rehabilitated within the uniformed services.

Response by Jerry Rivas made Jan 30 at 2019 5:38 PM

2019-01-30T17:38:26-05:00

I suppose he could fight it....But that might just be a pointless exercise in futility. I don't doubt that he is a "good kid". Our prisons are full of "good kids". He HAS proven himself to be lacking in judgement.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2019 10:02 PM

2019-01-30T22:02:05-05:00

He needs to planning his life outside the military now. He is at the point of no return. Sorry not sorry.

Response by SGT Terrill Lantz made Jan 31 at 2019 8:36 AM

2019-01-31T08:36:45-05:00

Sir, do be honest your son was lucky he wasn't immediately dishonorably discharged after the drug use. I personally know three people that popped hot that received that max during the Article 15 process and were immediately booted out. I think in both cases it took less than two weeks from the piss test to them being dishonorably discharged. And during that time those three were confined to their barracks except for work and extra duty. So the fact that your son was able to be out of the barracks proved that his command was willing to give him a second chance. And I will agree with many on this thread.... he pissed that opportunity away by making the INCREDIBLY stupid decision of drinking and driving. The three people I personally knew were not given a second chance, they were Articled then immediately discharged. But on the good kid front, I also knew someone who was a good kid but wasn't a good soldier. He was good at soldiering but, had a very hard time maintaining the cleanliness standards set forth by the Army for living in the barracks. So after getting his ass chewed out by our Top many times, he was chaptered out for failure to conform to Army standards.
Now with all that said I am not claiming to be some saint... I received two company level Article 15s, in two different commands, for underage drinking when I was in. Both were very poor decisions on my part and I "paid my dues" if you will. But because I was a good soldier, who made a very poor decision, my command saw that and only gave me the company grades. So that those Articles would not haunt either my military career or my civilian career. That is the difference, in my opinion, of being a good soldier and a good kid. You cannot be just a good kid and successfully serve. You MUST be a good soldier, marine, sailor, or airmen to successfully serve. The expected standards of behavior and conduct are hammered into our heads from day one. Whether the service member went through basic or ROTC. Those standards, and the consequences for breaking those standards, are made EXTREMELY clear to us. So your son made the decision to take those drugs and drive under the influence knowing full well what could happen if he got caught. Now clearly I don't know your son so I cannot pass any judgment on him as a person. But, based on my experience I can certainly say that if he willingly made two incredibly bad choices like this I would never trust him to have my back. So like was said in this thread he may be a good kid but he is not a good soldier. Whether he is still in or not I wish him all the best. Cause even though he made some poor decisions while he was in he still did server, and that makes him a brother to me. So I wish him all the best and hope that this experience served as a hard lesson learned as he moves forward in his life.

Response by MSgt J D McKee made Jan 31 at 2019 11:47 AM

2019-01-31T11:47:42-05:00

LTC Kevin Broom has the perfect and compassionate answer for you. The young man knew the law on both occasions, yet chose to violate them. He should be out of the military before he can get himself and maybe others killed by his poor judgement. This does not necessarily mean in combat, by it's nature military people do dangerous things every day with heavy equipment, explosives, weapons, ships and aircraft when not in combat. If you have stuff the best minds, and the best funded minds in science have designed to kill people and break things, you must be very careful whom you allow to mess with them. And they must take orders, such as orders not to abuse drugs and alcohol. It's not just the drug and alcohol abuse, it's just as important that he has demonstrated twice the inability to take orders.
I'm just shocked he is still in after the illegal drug abuse, in my day he would have been gone very quickly. In my job and many others, one could get into serious trouble for taking over- the -counter decongestants not prescribed by a military doctor. PRP, anyone?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2019 5:41 AM

2019-02-01T05:41:23-05:00

I would have a serious talk with him. He will need to understand that what he has done not only looks bad on the army, but presents a very real threat to other soldiers.
If he really wants it. It is possible that he can remain in the army. I mean possible as in barely. He has to show his command that he really wants to fix his issues. And he would have to do everything to the t. One screw up will ruin everything, even something relatively minor like not being 15 minutes prior to a formation could make the command believe that they shouldn't fight for him.
He would also have to understand that his command could have their hands tied and that there might be nothing he can do except fight for the small possibility of an honorable discharge. His life would be a miniature hell for a good period of time and he would have to he extremely cautious of even the smallest mess ups.
It's possible. But don't expect to not he chaptered after all each of those offenses on their own is enough for his command to chapter him let alone together.
He should also start making plans for the outside world, and it's going to be easy for him.

Good luck.

Response by MSG Moises Maldonado made Feb 1 at 2019 12:26 PM

2019-02-01T12:26:42-05:00

If I was You, I'd Help Him Pack, As soon as he Gets out of the Gate,, I'll Send Him on His Way, NOT Home , Mind You.. What your Children do is a reflection of His Upbringing.. ( Meaning You) . I have 3 Grown Children,, They were Told to Be Prepared to Face Life upon Reaching age 18 .. I was going to Show then the Door to Reality and I did. Two of them are Already Retired from USAF, one E8 the Other E7, the Oldest can Retire anytime he'd want from Federal Law Enforcement( Also a Vet With 8 Yrs Service).. All this B Cause I put the Fear of GOD( Actually my Size 8 Boot) in their B hind, They Took Heed and Flew the Nest... My Point? You Children Will be as Good as they can Be... Just Let them. You Failed, Simple as that...

Response by SP5 Hal Johnson made Feb 1 at 2019 3:58 PM

2019-02-01T15:58:22-05:00

IT MAY DO NO GOOD BUT TRY YOUR CONGRESSMEN

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2019 11:48 AM

2019-02-02T11:48:26-05:00

Sir, as a former Company Commander I had the unfortunate opportunity to Charter Soldiers because they chose to use illegal substance without givi g them a second chance. This is one of the many decisions military leaders face everyday and we always take into consideration how those decisions affect the morale and good order of the organization. Your son is a good kid but made a poor decision, not once but twice, now he will not only live with the consequences but hopefully learn from it.

Response by Sgt Phil Quintana made Feb 13 at 2019 3:34 AM

2019-02-13T03:34:05-05:00

Sir, know neither you nor your son, however, I know the military. He was given a second chance and didn't take advantage of it. My nephew did the same thing. He had weekend liberty and UAd on Monday, he came back "dirty". He had to go to a substance abuse program and was placed on "probation". Six months later he did it again and he was chapteted out. My brother and I, Marine Corps veterans, flew to New York, he was stationed at Ft. Drum, and asked if hiring a former JAG lawyer would do any good. We were told, flat out, it wouldn't help. My nephew learned his lesson. He's now a manager at Home Depot. I can only hope your son can do the same.

Response by SGT Daniel Durkovich made Feb 15 at 2019 4:47 PM

2019-02-15T16:47:42-05:00

Get a military lawyer is the best shot. Other than that nothing can be done.

Response by SGT Juan Robledo made Feb 27 at 2019 4:55 PM

2019-02-27T16:55:12-05:00

Maybe your son can appeal their decision and request you be admitted to a drug and alcohol program, and after completing the program the command might put you on probation for 6 months to a year and follow your performance and keep it off your official military record

Response by CPO Michael Burns made Mar 5 at 2019 5:36 PM

2019-03-05T17:36:54-05:00

I have no clue why any other service would be any different, but in the Navy all it would take is the illegal drug use and you are DONE. Period. You will be offered treatment on your way out the door, but you’re headed out the door. It’s not even a command choice.

Response by Sgt Ronald Paden made Mar 11 at 2019 12:23 PM

2019-03-11T12:23:39-04:00

It appears that he was given a second chance, they were giving a light reprimand. But then he got drunk and drove. How many chances should he get?
I had the sad task of going off the support base to collect what was left of a small car, torn into 3 pieces stretched over 150 feet, that ‘had’ 5 young airmen in it. It was his first mistake but now the Commander has to write to the parents how we lost 5 airmen.
Again how many chances should you be given

Response by LTC Leonard M. Manning, Sr made Apr 1 at 2019 7:08 AM

2019-04-01T07:08:26-04:00

If the soldier was a "Junior" soldier (E4 or below) I might be inclined to give him another chence if he self-identified before he was found out. However, with one strike already against him he them goes and drinks and drives and gets a DUI this is an indicator of a pattern and can not be allow in the Military. We are NOT a social justice organization. The U.S. Army is the action arm of the U.S. Government. We are paid to be "Fit To Fight" and physically ready at all times. This soldier has proven that he is not fit or ready. I woudl Chapter him out as fast as possible. Allow him to seek life elsewhere - someplace that he cannot put his brothers and sisters at risk.

Response by Cpl Geoff Smith made Apr 2 at 2019 4:05 PM

2019-04-02T16:05:52-04:00

WTF is chaptered out? In my day, late 60s a person caught using drugs was given a BCD, and sent on their way.

Response by SMSgt Edward McCarter made Apr 7 at 2019 3:25 AM

2019-04-07T03:25:52-04:00

Back in my day the easiest way to get into rehab was to self identify as someone that had drug or alcohol issues. Getting in trouble was not considered self identification. From day one we were warned of the possible troubles that would come your way if you didn't keep your act together. sounds like ha was cut some slack and blew it.

Response by SSG Dale London made Apr 22 at 2019 9:09 PM

2019-04-22T21:09:06-04:00

Being blunt here - being a "good kid" is no use in the military. Drug/alcohol abuse is not tolerated. One instance of it in a career is often all it takes to end that career. Your son got a second bite at the cherry and blew it. He ought to consider himself lucky he is being chaptered and not prosecuted.

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made Apr 29 at 2019 10:50 AM

2019-04-29T10:50:15-04:00

That's up to the unit's Chain of Command. However, the Military has a ZERO TOLERANCE Drug Policy. All it takes is to be "popped" on a piss test one time, and you're done. Sorry sir, but your son is SCREWED.

Response by MAJ Carl Owen made May 1 at 2019 7:47 PM

2019-05-01T19:47:22-04:00

I know this post is a year old but it brought back old, bad memories. In '96 a few months before I retired a friend of mine (a JAG officer) asked me to sit on chapter boards. The soldier was provided a JAG officer and allowed to present his case. An LTC and two Majors then made a recommendation to the Commanding General as to the type of discharge. The test results sealed their fate but they were given one last chance to ameliorate their discharge. Almost all got an undesirable. I asked my friend why me? He said he wanted one liberal on the panel. The guy is now a federal judge but the stories of the soldiers we chaptered out still nag at me.

Response by Sgt Charles Welling made May 14 at 2019 4:18 PM

2019-05-14T16:18:53-04:00

Good kids don't do illegal drugs and DUI! I am sorry this may offend you but the measure is in behavior and your son has behaved deplorably. The military does NOT need offenders, it needs compliance, discipline and respect. What part of illegal drug and DUI respects the law and complies with it by disciplined conduct? Answer? Zip, none. Your son deserves being booted out and he asked for it, you likely played a part. The truth is tough!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2019 10:43 AM

2019-05-16T10:43:53-04:00

The command has a final say on what happens to him. He is well advised to seek counsel from Trial Defense Services (JAG). The military has very little tolerance for substance abuse problems. JAG may be the difference between the type of discharge he receives (Honorable, General Under Honorable, etc). The type of discharge can be life determining.

Response by 1LT Rich Voss made May 17 at 2019 12:43 AM

2019-05-17T00:43:49-04:00

My late nephew (yes, LATE nephew) made a couple of similar bad choices regarding drugs and alcohol while new to the Army. He was what my family would call a "good kid". At that point in time the Army would courtmartial you and put you in in-patient treatment until they were certain you were "clean" and then give you a less than honorable discharge. For medical reasons. Generous. He was dead less than two years later in a drug related incident. Hopefully, your son gets the help he needs OUTSIDE the military.

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made May 17 at 2019 3:46 AM

2019-05-17T03:46:39-04:00

Yes. Jerk.

Response by LCDR L. Phillip Silverman made May 20 at 2019 2:21 PM

2019-05-20T14:21:27-04:00

Sorry, but you have got to be whacking me! If your child (yes, clearly not up to the adult version of life yet!) can't "lay off the pipe" and get serious about assuming the absolutely serious job he committed to doing, he has all but asked to face the full measure of the not so nice side of the UCMJ. If he were one of my sailors back in the day, the first arrest would be the absolute "come to Jesus" moment and any behavior that wasn't on the straight and narrow after that would have been separation time. On the wrong base, a dishonorable discharge would be standard. Your bias on what a good kid he is means less than nothing; his ability to do his job is paramount and he clearly hasn't learned one of the most important lessons in all of military service: my actions and choices impact the team and he hasn't learned to respect the team. How would you feel if he had applied for a job with a good friend of yours and you vouched for him, only to have him do something really stupid to your friends business (and possibly cost him money and clients?). Would you ask your friend to give him a second chance? He hasn't learned control OR military bearing OR respect for the team or himself.

Response by SPC Debra Mark made May 27 at 2019 3:34 AM

2019-05-27T03:34:23-04:00

In my days in the Army you were given a chance at a rehabilitation treatment. Sometimes outpatient and sometimes inpatient. I did 6 weeks inpatient the draw back was one more incident would result in a chapter 13 discharge under honorable. That was in the 80's. Drugs and alcohol abuse is a choice.

Response by LTC Charles T Dalbec made Jun 2 at 2019 10:08 AM

2019-06-02T10:08:59-04:00

Recommend your son make an appointment with the JAG to find out the real information rather then trying to ‘what if’. Okay

Response by SP6 Tc Austin made Jun 12 at 2019 7:49 PM

2019-06-12T19:49:13-04:00

There's probably more to the story than you know being chaptered out after one DUI and one drug-related offense there's more to it than that

Response by SGT Philip Klein made Jun 19 at 2019 12:22 PM

2019-06-19T12:22:42-04:00

“Up until these two offenses he had been doing really well.”
lol, which indicates he wasn’t always “doing really well”
It’s easy to behave yourself in basic training.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2019 4:58 PM

2019-06-29T16:58:16-04:00

My question to you is: why in the holy name if the lord would you want to keep someone (son or not) who has committed TWO serious offenses involving mind altering or mood altering substances in the Army? He is putting himself and others at risk.
You should be asking: what's the best way to reintegrate my son into civilian life while getting him the counseling he needs?
As a senior leader, I want him to transition back to civilian life and get help. Not drain Commanders and training time with repeated violations and behavior problems.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 18 at 2019 4:46 PM

2019-07-18T16:46:25-04:00

It's one thing to commit these things 4, 5, 6 years into a career after going through some adversity. Those individuals have generally established some kind of career path and may need help to get back on track. There's been a large enough sample size to determine what kind of potential that soldier still has. It's another thing to do these things when you're just starting out. You're conveying to everyone that you can't be trusted with your own self-care, so we definitely can't trust you with anyone else's. I'm sure he could've been a good soldier, but he didn't prove that to anyone before making extremely irresponsible decisions. That contract he signed was his legally binding word that he basically wouldn't do exactly what he did.

Response by SPC Nancy Greene made Aug 31 at 2019 5:03 PM

2019-08-31T17:03:17-04:00

His Command HAS to provide him a chance at Rehab. I received an Article 15 for an alcohol-related incident. I completed a therapy program and continued on with my Military career. I suggest he ask for Alcohol assessment and therapeutic support. Alcohol is capable of making very smart people make very stupid mistakes! I know! I celebrate 30 years of sobriety this November! Hope your son receives the help he needs to maintain his Military career.

Response by SSG Elyzabeth Cromer made Mar 15 at 2023 3:59 PM

2023-03-15T15:59:14-04:00

Short answer; No, they do not have to give him a chance at rehab before chaptering him out.

Depending on the circumstances, involved they may choose to. Questions: How new is relatively new? Just fininished AIT or less then six years, but has a deployment under his belt. He used an illegal drug; did he get caught on a urinalysis, self report or did he have a bad reaction and request medical assistance? He got caught drinking and driving? What was his BAC? Is he under 21 in a state where any alcohol is an automatic DWI? Is there a psychological component to any of this? A recent head injury? If he has deployed how long had he been back? Any of these things MAY be reasons for his behavior.
This question is four years old so he has either been discharged or retained at this point; if he has been discharged and he had a medical issue he may be able to have his discharge upgraded. No matter what happened I hope he got the help he needed and that he is doing well.