Can officers be demoted?

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 06:09:36 -0400

I'm curious as to whether officers can be demoted like enlisted can as officers are promoted via congress so I'm wondering if demotions would be the same. Just wondering because I know if a junior enlisted gets an Article 15, a lot of times they loose rank. I've never heard of this for an officer unless they are convicted by court martial. PFC Private RallyPoint Member SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL SFC James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" LTC Stephen F. CPL Dave Hoover SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth SSG Private RallyPoint Member Capt Dwayne Conyers CPT Jack Durish MSG Private RallyPoint Member

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Jul 6 at 2020 6:11 AM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 06:11:03 -0400

I knew of three that had to take a bust in rank , they only lost one rank.

Response by Maj John Bell made Jul 6 at 2020 6:40 AM

Maj John Bell — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 06:40:24 -0400

My input is almost 30 years old.

Before the current retirement system, some mustangs
_who had made it to SNCO, but
_were passed over twice, and
_would be separated less than two years from retirement,
could choose to revert to their prior enlisted rank; if and only if the MOS was short SNCO's.

I never heard of a punitive demotion in the modern Marine Corps for an officer, unless the act would be a felony in the civilian world. In that case the officer is busted to private and forfeiture of all pay and allowances for the term of incarceration.

If the act by the officer would not be a felony in the civilian world:
_Prior to the UCMJ. It was not uncommon for an officer to lose lineal standing, effectively changing his date of rank.
_Since the UCMJ, an non-felony act act meriting serious discipline results in forfeiture of pay and allowances, a fine, and restriction to on-base bachelor officer quarters.
_More often than not, if an officer does some something that would merit demotion for an enlisted nan, he would be separated.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2020 7:02 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 07:02:05 -0400

I am sure they can. Regardless of rank enlisted or officer, no one is exempt from UCMJ action and reduction in rank. Just depends on the severity.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Jul 6 at 2020 7:04 AM

SSG Roger Ayscue — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 07:04:58 -0400

Yes, but it requires a formal reduction board and approval at the highest levels, I saw it once, and it was accompanied by resignation from the service

Response by LCDR Joshua Gillespie made Jul 6 at 2020 8:08 AM

LCDR Joshua Gillespie — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 08:08:37 -0400

If it happens... it's very rare. I would also assume you'd be less likely to see it these days than earlier times perhaps. My grandfather somehow remained a second lieutenant despite regular re-assignment to new aircraft and more dangerous missions. I suspect it was because he was a pilot before the War, had no college degree, and reputedly liked to get into fights in town. My guess is that he was a "good stick" and they were short of people... or he'd have been cashiered.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2020 9:34 AM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 09:34:28 -0400

I knew a few former Captains passed for Major that were allowed to stay in. Maybe as GySgt depending. One went Infantry WO (Gunner). Kicked major ass with TF Ripper in DS.

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made Jul 6 at 2020 9:41 AM

MAJ Ronnie Reams — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 09:41:50 -0400

AUS officers can be demoted to their USAR or USA rank. Most common are LTGs and GENs that drop to MG when they vacate their nominative positions. MG is the highest USA and USAR permanent ranks.
This does not necessarily punitive, but can be. Other officers that lose AUS rank, may simply just be leaving AD. A friend of mine that was in when the Army needed Captains and you were promoted every 12 months, left AD as a Captain AUS, but became a 2LT USAR with two years TIG.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2020 9:52 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 09:52:47 -0400

I can't find the specific regulation, but I do know that they can be reduced in rank. This is usually followed by some serious transgression on their part. A few years ago, there was a General Officer that was in command of AFRICOM (LTG William E. Ward). He was a 4 Star. Got popped for using his Govt CC in inappropriate ways plus a few other things. He lost one of his Stars, then was retired. I've also read about Colonels that got popped for something and was reduced/retired at their last rank where they served Honorably. Usually LTC or MAJ (depending) and are then retired or removed from the Service.

Response by COL John McClellan made Jul 6 at 2020 9:53 AM

COL John McClellan — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 09:53:56 -0400

There are reduction boards, the same for more senior NCOs. But more often than not, an officer with that kind of misconduct is punished and separated from the service, so you rarely see them stay in after that kind of action.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Jul 6 at 2020 10:47 AM

CAPT Kevin B. — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 10:47:13 -0400

Can be done? Yes. Make sense? No, unless we're in an all out war. If you do something bad enough to warrant that type of butt waxing, you'll never get promoted and are just a loose wrench in the gears. I've been around several who resigned in lieu of something worse happening. It can play out differently if we felt someone at year 18 shouldn't lose the retirement as well. Those got a "creative assignment" to serve their penance. So what gets you hammered? Oh, night putting a female contractor on work you administer. Putting a uniform on and protest the Representatives office on the 6 o'clock news. Lots of punitive actions over the Tailhook Scandal. Those scandals are so bad, some got over punished, some got punished correctly, etc. Some got punished for not having anything to do with it. Hell, my about as far away from an aviator as I can get promotion was held up because I was required to prove the negative about being at least 200 miles outside of Reno. "You had two days of leave during this timeframe. Prove you didn't get on a plane, fly to Reno, and assault a service woman. Can't? Sign and swear under perjury this affidavit. Now prove you're not lying. Can't? Here's another affidavit." Wound up getting wound around that axle three times.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Jul 6 at 2020 10:52 AM

LTC Jason Mackay — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 10:52:54 -0400

Under certain circumstances, a Warrant Officer may be returned to their last NCO rank. It's usually in conjunction with non selection to CW2.

Response by SPC Donald Donovan made Jul 6 at 2020 12:48 PM

SPC Donald Donovan — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 12:48:19 -0400

I don't know about demotions, but I am pretty sure that promotions will stop. When I was stationed in West Germany back in the 1980's there was a new 2nd LT who had been in country about two days. He decided to rent a car and tour the German countryside. He ended up about an hour from the nearest US Instantiation and got drunk, busted up a Guesthaus, and was picked up by the local polizie. Since he was assigned to the 8th Inf. Div, MP's from Bad Kreuznach were dispatched to pick him up. When the two MP's arrived (2 Spec. 4's) they were met by a Polizie officer who spoke fluent English. The mission was to escort the Lieutenant to BK and turn him over to the Div. Staff Duty Officer. He was in the holding cell, screaming things like "We Won....Twice" and speaking German like the way comics did on TV. The senior E-4 Identified himself, and informed the Lieutenant that they were giving him a ride to Div. HQ. The LT, swung around and kicked the MP in the family jewels, and was trounced upon by 5 Polizie officers. He was handcuffed and the Jr. E-4, placed the LT under arrest for disgracing the uniform. (only officers are allowed to arrest officers unless the circumstances like this arise) When the MP's got back into radio range with the MP Station and told the desk Sergeant what had transpired, there was a long pause on the radio. Sarge just said to maintain radio silence, get back to the station ASAP. Once they arrived, the Lieutenant was hustled into a holding cell, and the MP's were told to write very detailed reports. While writing the report, a Major arrived (Div. Staff Duty Officer) and questioned the two E-4's about the issue. After hearing what they had to say, and reading the reports, and the translated reports from the Polizie, and damage estimate to the Guesthaus, and the assault on the one MP, The Major stated that the MP's did just the right thing. The Lieutenant, now more sober was released to the custody of the Major. Turns out the LT was supposed to meet the Division 2 star with all the other newly arrived Officers for cocktails at the O club the next night. What DID happen was the Lieutenant was given orders to be reassigned to a weather station North of Juneau, Alaska, and to be shipped out on the next available flight out of Ramstain AFB. So he was never heard from again, I suspect that his carrier in the military was very short lived.

Response by SGT Chris Padgett made Jul 6 at 2020 3:06 PM

SGT Chris Padgett — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 15:06:23 -0400

There were three times I ever saw an "open" punishment of an officer.
1st time was a 1LT who couldn't make height and weight. Never had an issue with PT and was great at his job and a super leader. But he was heavy and he wasn't able to and keep the weight off, he was forced to resign his commission.
2nd time was a Battery Commander that got into a car drunk and hit and killed a person on a motorcycle. He was court martialed, reduced to E-1 and sent to Leavenworth. That was a bitch, the entire command came down on the battery as if it their fault it happened. Toxic leadership at it's finest there.
The last time, a 1LT read a compass backwards during a artillery hip shot. Put a 155mm round off post. (pre Paladin)
He just vanished. Was told he was sent to a basic training unit until his resignation went through.

Response by SGT Herbert Bollum made Jul 6 at 2020 4:57 PM

SGT Herbert Bollum — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 16:57:16 -0400

In December of 2016 an article was published about a Major General who had carried on a long time affair using government phones and all with a woman (not his wife) and had been counseled about it. Long enough time that it dated back to when he was a Lt. Col. and he was busted back to that rank and retired with 30 years at Lt. Col. losing about $40,000 per year in retirement pay.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jul 6 at 2020 7:41 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 19:41:26 -0400

Then you don't listen nor read. The was a GEN who was caught doing something and forced to retire as a COL. This several months ago.

Response by CW5 John Vassar made Jul 6 at 2020 7:42 PM

CW5 John Vassar — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 19:42:34 -0400

After WWI, WWII, and Korea there were mass reductions in Officer Grades. Active-Duty Reservists were returned to their Guard and Reserve Units, where they were Demoted (Usually to O-2). This system was apparently much more fair to good officers than the “Bush-Train-Wreck” I endured in the 1990s. Rather than use Reduction-In-Force/Grade Reduction, or awarding Honorary Reserve Retired Status, the Army used Promotion Boards to kick us out. A few of us in high-visibility, extremely-competitive, sensitive career fields had to Call-the-Army-Out-Into-The-Street to salvage our professional reputations. We were promoted and given our choice of assignments.

Response by SGT Paul Turnbull made Jul 6 at 2020 11:03 PM

SGT Paul Turnbull — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 23:03:46 -0400

Yes, it is possible, but they are usually separated from the service instead.

Response by LtCol George Carlson made Jul 6 at 2020 11:52 PM

LtCol George Carlson — Mon, 06 Jul 2020 23:52:44 -0400

I had a roommate in Vietnam, a 1st Lt (long story about how he got in the position) who got a letter from CMC (yes, signed by the CMC) stating, "Your usefulness to the United States Marine Corps has ended and you are invited to resign your commission and seek alternative employment. You are hereby directed to obtain military air back to the Continental United States and report to the nearest Marine Corps activity for separation." I suspect there was more of a process than that letter suggested, but he was gone in less than three days.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Jul 7 at 2020 12:59 AM

SMSgt Lawrence McCarter — Tue, 07 Jul 2020 00:59:31 -0400

I have seen some Officers that got passed over three time for promotion to the next highest grade get reduced to an enlisted grade. They did have the choice of getting out or taking a reduction in rank. If they stayed in as an enlisted man however they could still retire in the highest rank held which was of course the Officer rank but would not return to that rank until they retired. There are some I can think of that did leave the service then and the Air Force was better off without them. That wasn't always the case though, most did well as enlisted men that did stay and I did feel bad for most of those I knew and some I worked with. I actually don't agree with that in all cases as being a good remedy especially when job performance wasn't the issue.

Response by TSgt David Olson made Aug 2 at 2020 2:42 PM

TSgt David Olson — Sun, 02 Aug 2020 14:42:00 -0400

A number of years ago I worked with a individual who had been on active duty in Europe. He was an 0-3 at the time. He was caught drunk driving on post. He was offered an alternative from resigning his commission, to being separated from AD and flopped into to the Army Reserves. He had no loss of rank, but was never going to see 0-4.

Response by CW3 Michael Clifford made Aug 3 at 2020 12:08 AM

CW3 Michael Clifford — Mon, 03 Aug 2020 00:08:43 -0400

Officers, in courts-martial, are dismissed from the service, thus do not receive dishonorable “discharges”, rather dishonorable dismissals. They cannot be forced to work (hard labor). If they do not volunteer to work, they remain in their cells. They also carry the title of “officer inmate” with no other perks. They are also expected to follow all orders, etc. As a CID agent, I sent several to the Stoney Lonesome.

Response by MSG Felipe De Leon Brown made Aug 13 at 2020 9:48 AM

MSG Felipe De Leon Brown — Thu, 13 Aug 2020 09:48:09 -0400

Although very rare, the short answer is yes. That said, most often than not, a commissioned officer is adjudicated to have seriously violated the UCMJ is separated from the service. Also, there have been instances when a flag officer (general/admiral) has not only been invited to retire but also retire with less rank than that which he or she had attained during their active service. Is it fair? That, I believe, would depend on an individual's point of view. I can't think of any of the officers whom I've known who have committed offenses that would normally be considered a violation of the UCMJ but I have known a few who have been unfair to their subordinates.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2020 10:14 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Aug 2020 10:14:30 -0400

Technically, Commissioned Officers can be demoted down to 2LT. I've never heard of this happening though. I have read about senior Officers being demoted for misconduct right before they retire. For instance, a 3-Star demoted to 2-Star before retiring. I've even heard of a 1-Star being demoted to COL before retiring (that has to hurt; being a flag officer and then retiring below that).

Response by Lt Col Jim Bemis made Aug 20 at 2020 1:54 PM

Lt Col Jim Bemis — Thu, 20 Aug 2020 13:54:14 -0400

AUS, i.e., the National Guard, officers can be reduced in rank to their last prior rank when their term as a general officer ends (often as a state adjutant general). It is not a punishment, just an administrative reassignment. When active duty officers are punished, they cannot be reduced in rank. However, if an officer is retiring, but has committed offenses, the service secretary can be asked to make a grade determination as to the last rank served honorably for pay purposes only. In two instances I am aware of, a major general was only allowed to draw a colonel's retired pay, and a colonel was only allowed to draw the retired pay of a first lieutenant. No active duty or reserve officer can be reduced in actual rank, although brevet (i.e., temporary) ranks used to expire or be revoked, primarily after the World War II/Korean War post-war force reductions. Those were administrative reassignments also, albeit that brevet ranks are not used anymore.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2020 1:25 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Sep 2020 13:25:28 -0400

I've only known one case as he was a Major but became a MSG until his 20 years. Dont know the details but retired as a Major.

Response by Maj Daniel Pempel made Jul 9 at 2021 2:33 PM

Maj Daniel Pempel — Fri, 09 Jul 2021 14:33:13 -0400

Officers can't be demoted through an article 15 or court martial like enlisted. Officers that have gotten in trouble but make it to retirement will have a retired grade determination made at the time and will be retired at the grade they last held honorably. Also, 3 and 4 star ranks are temporary grades associated with positions. Those officers can revert back to being a 2 star if they don't move into another 3 or 4 star job or if they screwed up and aren't allowed to retire as a 3 or 4 star.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Jul 9 at 2021 3:07 PM

Sgt Dale Briggs — Fri, 09 Jul 2021 15:07:06 -0400

The Fleet Commander got cashiered years ago when the Navy had a spate of their boats running into things... like enormous very slow moving freighters, as well as each other. I assume he had the option of retiring at that point, but it seems unfair to target him as he wasn’t driving the boats. The only way imo he’d be culpable would be appointing unqualified Captains to drive the ships. Shrugs, outside of that I have to clue, I assume most major screw ups end a career, if there’s negligence and someone gets hurt I’d guess UCMJ applies to everyone regardless of rank.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Apr 6 at 2022 4:52 AM

LTC Stephen F. — Wed, 06 Apr 2022 04:52:34 -0400

After the Vietnam War was winding down, the requirement for commissioned helicopter pilots diminished significantly and the Reductions in Force enabled some to accept a warrant officer position as a helicopter pilot my friend SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member
FYI Maj Daniel Pempel