Can PL negatively counsel PSG for failure to supervise APFT progress of one of the soldiers in the platoon?

2020-09-28T16:33:43-04:00

I'm a brand new PL. My PSG has been in the Army for about 17 years. He knows easy ways out of tasks that are outside his comfort zone... the bottom line is he is the Sham-Artist... laziest NCO I've ever met in my life. His NCOER is due in about a month. One of the soldiers in my platoon has been failing his APFT for the past 10 months. His is the only APFT failure in the entire company. We've been conducting APFT to accommodate just 1 soldier.
To my request from PSG about daily PT and remedial PT for the soldier in question his immediate answer is "Sir, that's NCO lane, I delegated this task to the squad leader".
Of course I trust my PSG, but I always verify. Over the past 1p months, not once I've seen the PSG conducting PT session or doing a spot check.
Now the NCOER is due, and I need good reason and paper-trail how to reflect this on his performance.
Please help.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2020 4:39 PM

2020-09-28T16:39:01-04:00

From my initial read of this post, there seems to be a deeper issue here. Also, one month before an NCOER is not the time to start a “paper-trail”. If you truly want to discuss this issue and receive some mentorship - please feel free to email me - find me on the Global (DeJesus, Noel).

Response by MAJ Jason Sierakowski made Sep 28 at 2020 4:44 PM

2020-09-28T16:44:55-04:00

I recommend your best mentor in the Company is the 1SG. There is a reason for this. Explain all this to him/her and express your concerns. As a new PL, you need this guidance. Your main role is to learn. Don't get role concussed, you are overall I'm charge of the Platoon. Counsel where needed. Have the discussion with with his senior rater as well.

Response by SFC Marcus Lewis made Sep 28 at 2020 4:58 PM

2020-09-28T16:58:10-04:00

Just because you dont see it doesn’t mean it is not getting done. The PSG should have delegated to the Squad leader & the team leader should be doing PT with his soldier. Just like the delegation went down the PSG will ask about the progress of the Soldier from that Squad leader & Team leader. Then maybe once a month take that soldier and do PT with him personally. It is probably not him being in 17 years and Shaming, he has NCO’s he can trust and delegates tasks to them & they give him status reports during the platoon meetings. As his rater he should of been counseled by you every 3 months but it sounds like that wasn’t done. So does that make you the laziest 2LT ever? I mean your not doing your job so that should reflect on your OER then right?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2020 5:00 PM

2020-09-28T17:00:18-04:00

Wow...To be perfectly honest, you've left this too long. If you haven't gotten initial counseling and monthly counseling statements marking progress in the goals you set up in the initial counseling, then you've not done right by your Platoon Sergeant, and frankly that is on you. Chalk this up to learning. Finish up the NCOER, and then do an initial counseling for the next rating period. State specific goals you want to accomplish for the next rating period and get his feedback (these goals should be right in line with the goals you state on your OER Support Form and fall in line with the company commander's goals and so on up the chain). The second part of a counseling form is to document what he discusses with you as ways to make that happen to include any interim goals you and he agree upon. PT does fall into NCO business and delegating remedial tasks is part of a PSGs job. You've given an example of one task that this "Sham-artist" has delegated away. If that task isn't getting done to your satisfaction, you cannot simply blame the method, cite the outcome. Give the PSG the opportunity to fix it, and outline failures to meet any goals in follow-up counselings. It wouldn't be unheard of to ask the PSG for a monthly or even weekly update on progress of the goals or to be briefed on the plan of action for this specific task. Then when you know the plan, grab your PSG by the arm and both of you check together that the plan is being executed. As the platoon leader, it also wouldn't be unheard of for you to talk to the soldier and the assigned squad leader to show them that this is important to you. If a PT failure is starting to put you in front of the CO, it is okay to express to the PSG that you're tired of getting your butt chewed and if he doesn't get it fixed, you'll be taking it out of the NCO lane. Finally, if one soldier is doing remedial PT, it never hurts for the PL to go and join the soldier to show leadership by example, and support for the soldier. Finally, before I called a senior NCO a sham-artist I might spend some time with the 1SG. His experience, feedback, and guidance is going to be much more valuable than the vast experience a 2LT has in judging the "laziest NCO" he's ever met.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2020 5:14 PM

2020-09-28T17:14:17-04:00

Not sure what the intent here is but as 1SG DeJesus stated a month prior to an eval is not when you’re starting a “paper trail”.

With regards to the soldier failing the APFT even though training and development is the PSGs inherent responsibility I will ask as his supervisor what have you done to address this?

Have you formally counseled the PSG?
Have you sought guidance from the CO 1SG on how to approach this type of NCO?
Have you been providing feedback on this issue to the CDR?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2020 5:28 PM

2020-09-28T17:28:54-04:00

I completely agree with 1SG DeJesus, you cannot start negative counselings a month prior to the end of the rating period to justify a poor evaluation.
Physical fitness and overall health is an individual responsibility. Being in the guard, you cannot mandate that a Soldier preforms training daily/weekly/whenever (unless he is on orders getting paid).
It is valid to delegate down to the squad level. Unless the PSG was ordered to conduct PT, it doesn't sound like he's done anything wrong. Can you prove he isn't spot checking? Are you watching him every moment of the day?
1 NCO should not get a negative evaluation because 1 Soldier in the platoon/company is failing APFT.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2020 6:56 PM

2020-09-28T18:56:37-04:00

BLUF:Go to your PSG and be a man about it and tactfully talk to him. Let your PSG know what’s going on in your head. Always keep your drama at the smallest level, don’t air your dirty laundry out for everyone to see. You going to the CO and 1SG with this will be the beginning of your platoon looking like shit and having negative attention. The PSG and you aren’t there to have pissing matches, you need to be cohesive.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2020 7:21 PM

2020-09-28T19:21:16-04:00

Am I the only one very impressed there is a national guard company out there with an APFT pass rate with only 1 fail. Is this a small unit with super soldiers?

I do have one thing to add since MAJ's and LTC's are making it clear this is not a path to go down.

I highly recommend the 2LT get the Commander and 1SG (maybe even the rated NCO) on board with the NCOER before you go LOCKING the rating level. OMG, I had to change one once after I locked it and couldn't (I had to lower it because the soldier failed the APFT). I basically abandoned the OER and started another one, and it took an e-mail from a LTC to HRC to clear out the old one.

In the mean time, there's an unresolved NCOER/OER floating out there in the system and continues to pop red on higher reporting metrics because it hasn't cleared HRC. The commander will then have to continue to report back that a 2LT locked his rating level at "Unqualified" for an NCO who had a soldier fail at APFT and they are trying to fix it though HRC. Finally a LTC/COL will have enough of hearing about it and contact HRC themselves.

That's what's going to happen.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Sep 28 at 2020 7:38 PM

2020-09-28T19:38:02-04:00

Sir, If he is FUBAR, then why haven't you started negative counseling already? I mean once you did your initial "this is what I want" upon assuming Command- you could have counseled any failures after about 30 days. Did he supervise the SM's TL/SL when the SM was training up? Did he spend anytime counseling the SM personally? It's rather late in the games now, and it probably won't fly to suddenly bust his chops within 30 days of his NCOER.

Response by SGT Justin Brothen made Sep 28 at 2020 7:53 PM

2020-09-28T19:53:09-04:00

You could join PT, his/her running is what needs improvement. You could have Monday, Wednesday, and Friday extra running days. Or whatever the issue is. Where are you for PT?

Response by MSgt Don VandeBogert made Sep 28 at 2020 7:54 PM

2020-09-28T19:54:50-04:00

Just throwing this in from outside the wire.

1. It's never too late to start a paperwork trail, but from the sounds of it and other comments you may not have been getting proper counseling and expectations on to your PSG on a timely manner. Fix that ASAP.

2. Any NCO, SNCO, or officer that delegates but fails to follow up, has failed in their duties. Period. Delegating and not following up is akin to "pawning sh!t off" and from what you've observed this seems to be happening and should be dealt with immediately, NCOER or not. You didnt tell then to delegate it and forget it did you? If they're an NCO they should already know what the standards are.

3. Not addressing this issue immediately is a bad on you. Letting sh!t slide should be just as unacceptable to you as it would (hopefully) be to your leaders. What would you tell your leadership right now if they asked you about this? I can't imagine a scenario where you tell them you knew something wasn't right for 10 months, never followed up yourself, and didn't address it sooner. That won't play out well for you.

4. During your counciling with this PSG I would recommend reminding them they are not ROAD and won't be under your leadership. ROAD = Retired On Active Duty. 17 years...they still have a lot left. Don't let them quit on you now.

5. Make sure they're doing well...mentally, physically, etc. Make sure something isn't going on in their lives that is negatively impacting them, their subordinates, and the mission. Dig. If there is something, help them address it.

Good luck.

V/R
Bogie

Response by Maj John Bell made Sep 28 at 2020 8:59 PM

2020-09-28T20:59:26-04:00

Why on God's green Earth would you ask this kind of question in a public format? This is a question you should be sharing with your Company CO.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2020 9:57 PM

2020-09-28T21:57:18-04:00

As many others with far more experience than me have said, you’ve missed the boat in counseling him for this rating period. Also as a brand new PL, it’s awful presumptive to throw out the defamatory remarks about your battle buddy, a SNCO. There’s a lot that should have happened here and as the leader, you need to take extreme ownership over everything that’s happening. Remember, the failure to date is on you, not your NCO. Learn from it, but don’t make enemies. You could probably learn quite a bit of good soldiers and leadership from that SNCO the Army matched you with.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2020 10:32 PM

2020-09-28T22:32:36-04:00

Can a PL counsel a PSG? Yes. As a SGT, I've counseled a CW2. Tho it ended up not going anywhere, the CO backed me. I've even had an PL (worth mentioning, former long tab) lock my PSG at the PoA.

Now to your situation, there's a lot missing to the story for me to give you a clear cut answer sir. 1, have you been counseling him every 3 months as required for a NCOER? If yes, then you should have a paper trail working already. If no, now isn't the time to try and create it.
2, how does your platoon conduct majority of its PT? Squad PT, PLT PT? If it's at the squad level then chances are PSG delegated down to SL. There's a conversation to be had with the SL on the performance of the SM either way, but if you and your PSG isn't conducting PT with your troops, then BOTH of you are relying on your SLs to do their job. To that end, I'd say have a closed door conversation with the PSG and SL. I know I don't need to tell you this, but don't let your rank boost an ego over the NCOs experience and let it cloud your judgment during the conversation. Also, take the time to listen.
3, moreso on the PSG if he feels his SL has an effective plan of action let it ride. If it isn't, respectfully work with him to adjust fire to get Joe snuffy to pass an APFT. Again, his SL/TL has a big part to play as well.
4, you said he's the laziest PSG ever. If he isn't performing to standard that should be annotated on counselings for his NCOER, if not, you'll more than likely have to bite this one and start from scratch on his next NCOER. Maintain a healthy relationship with him as the NCOs and Joe need to see an unified front from you two.

Response by 1LT Christopher Gonzales made Sep 28 at 2020 10:47 PM

2020-09-28T22:47:03-04:00

Wow. You delegated the task, but you are ultimately responsible for the success and failure of this.

Assuming you got the sham artist and you knew this, step one was to put in clear terms a goal that is specific, measurable, achievable, realistic, and time-bound. This would go in a counseling form. You’d then do checks. Ask the TL how training is going. Talk with your Soldier. Participate. Go to where the problem is. And then, capture your observations with a two-way dialogue with your PSG in a developmental counseling form. Rinse, repeat until you have a chain of paperwork that supports your conclusion.

You can be involved without overstepping or undercutting your PSG’s authority. You just go and observe. Be present.

Honestly, and this may be rough to hear, this was a good chance for you to be a leader, you blew it, and now you’re looking to band-aid the problem. Even if you’re 100% correct and he is the worst PSG in the Army, you have no evidence that is true. Dust yourself off, go talk to your PSG, and give him or her a fair assessment. Then, day 1, developmental counseling with periodic review that is a conversation, not a reading of what you decided is true.

Response by SSG Dennis R. made Sep 28 at 2020 11:22 PM

2020-09-28T23:22:50-04:00

Here ya go, LT - many years ago I had this little gem printed up for one specific individual. Keep it for future use.

~ Certificate of Non-Achievement ~

__________ has distinguished himself by exceptionally mediocre responsibility. During this period he was confronted by a variety of inconsequential challenges. His reaction to these trivial matters was to clutch completely. Unlike his cooler, more level headed contemporaries, he repeated crumbled under the slightest pressure. His flaccid standards could not fail to be attained by even the most indolent individual, although he had difficulty maintaining them himself. He has consistently displayed a total lack of knowledge of or interest in any facet of his position. During his tenure, because of his lackadaisical and indifferent approach, the position deteriorated to utter shambles. His inability to produce acceptable results under any circumstances characterized the insignificant effort he put forth. His selfish and uncooperative personality soon permeated his entire section to the extent that all with whom his section dealt were treated with hostility and contempt. His complete failure to accomplish even a single given task stands as a tribute to those who wish to do away with the military establishment. His inebriated appearance, sloth, lack of ambition, and odious traits of character, coupled with his “to hell with it” attitude have brought the utmost disgrace to his superiors and contemporaries alike. His ineffectual substandard performance of duty is in keeping with the lowest traditions of humanity and reflects discredit upon himself, his country, and society as a whole.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 29 at 2020 2:44 AM

2020-09-29T02:44:29-04:00

Let's start with this, 10 months of APFT failures? Unacceptable! The soldier should have been separated long ago. Next; in your initial counseling session with your PSG, did you clearly stated that your expectations for PRT? Is the PSG's responsibility? Partially yes, what is your role as the PL? Is PRT your program? Next, in your leadership philosophy, are you clear or ambiguous? Have you done your due diligence and counsel the PSG as directed IAW AR 623-3 and DAPAM 623-3? Or are you just waiting for the annual NCOER to get him? Based on your post, as a Battery 1SG, I have multiple concerns about what really is going on there. No, 30 days is not enough for a paper trail. You want to set him up for failure? Give him tasks, ensure that you explain what your expectations are, document the outcome fairly. In the future, start by conducting proper initial, quarterly, and event oriented counseling. Tell him straight up today, what his evaluation is going to look like. Don't forget to reach out to your 1SG and CSM.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Sep 29 at 2020 4:10 AM

2020-09-29T04:10:14-04:00

Ok, first off? PT-APFT is on the soldier, not the NCO or Officer. If a person fails or is failing that is not on the NCO. That soldier that is or has been failing for 10+ months should have been in the system already for remedial upon failing their first APFT and flagged for possible separation actions.

The PSG is well within his rights to delegate this soldier out to a lower ranked NCO in the CoC. That is leadership by giving responsibility of a task to a lower subordinate. You say you have never seen him spot check, just because you have never seen him spot check does not mean he has not. All that takes is him talking to the SL and asking how SM X is doing. As to the PSG conducting PT sessions, that is not a requirement. Most PT is done on a company scale when done in such a way. And when platoons break down to do it, it does not mean that the PSG should or has to lead it. You don't see the First Sergeant leading PT but he does it right along with everyone else.

As far as a one month out to start a paper trail? By what you write you have been with this company at least 10 months. Did you not write an initial counseling for your PSG when you took command of the platoon? It follows along the same lines for monthly counselings as well and you are just now asking..... NO.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Sep 29 at 2020 8:20 AM

2020-09-29T08:20:07-04:00

OK, you have given him this task 10 months ago and just now checking on it? Or did I misunderstand that part? My first question is why are you delegating training issues to the PSG, I always considered that part of my job. The Squad leaders work for you, if you have a soldier that is failing, I would have brought the Squad/Section leader in and have a sit down with him and the platoon sergeant to form a plan of action and tell them my expectations. It certainly isn't the PSG's job to babysit one soldier, he has 30 some bodies that he is responsible to feed and train on NCO stuff.

If you haven't been working closely with your squad/section leaders, you need to start. I don't know about Signal, but in Infantry and Engineer Companies, the PSG has a set of task that does not allow him to supervise those Squad Leaders fulltime. Operationally, that is your job. Here is how I broke it down, individual tasks should be left to the Squad Leaders, supervised by you and the PSG. It doesn't hurt if your soldiers are doing common task stuff to see you doing it too. Squad and Platoon level training are on you and you need to know the strengths and weaknesses of those Squads and Squad leaders to know where you need to focus.

I would suggest a private sit down with your PSG, his opinion of you may shock you. Remember that he will probably be there after you promote out and while I was lucky not to ever catch a bad one, I certainly had some stronger than others. Layout your expectations and ask him what he expects of you, that has to be a two way street.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Sep 29 at 2020 8:29 AM

2020-09-29T08:29:38-04:00

A month out is not the time to rush to judgement and rush to nail someone on their eval.
There needs to be a trail of evaluations and documented counseling's before that happens and from what you have stated that doesn't seem to be the case. This type of issue does fall within NCO's responsibilities but you are in the clear to request updates and progress reports.
You need to create a relationship with your PSG that reflects that you two are counterparts with the same goal. You need a counterpart much more than you need a subordinate that will do your bidding. It's not off to a great start when you call him the laziest NCO you've met as a 2ndLT and calling him a sham artist in a public forum. Work with the guy and build a plan together. If that fails get some feedback and guidance from the 1stSgt on how to better communicate with your PSG.

If there are real issues then address them under normal review periods and do counseling's to document them but you need to make sure you are going by the numbers and giving opportunities for improvement.

Response by COL Kelly Hines made Sep 29 at 2020 10:21 AM

2020-09-29T10:21:41-04:00

How long have you been his PL and did you do initial/follow-up counseling? Before doing anything, go talk to the 1SG or even the CSM for some mentoring. They will both know the caliber of this NCO and be able to advise you better on a way ahead since they know the guy. Do not be afraid of being mentored by your next higher NCO, I did that all the way through Brigade Command. Bouncing ideas /seeking advice from those senior NCOs helped me be successful. That said, you will find some of the senior NCOs are not someone to seek advice from on occasion, that's where your judgement/experience come in...that's why leadership is an art, not a science...

Finally, nothing to stop you from talking directly to the squad leader. Don't buy into it being "NCO" business, it's leader business. I'd say your overall NCO chain is doing pretty well given he's your only failure. A lot of this is on that Soldier who should be flagged, possibly barred and on his way out. Not everyone should be retained...

All that said, if you really feel he's a lazy NCO, captured it in counseling starting now to support his NEXT NCOER.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Sep 29 at 2020 11:08 AM

2020-09-29T11:08:15-04:00

I will be honest, and agree with others have said. I also think the boat has sailed for this rating cycle. I would also say you gave him direction, he in turned passed it off to a JR NCO. That is his prerogative, and to be honest, that is the way it is supposed to work. Senior NCO's by and large have more things to do then see to soldier doing remedial PT. Try to avoid micro managing this situation, if the soldier continues to fail, then issue the tissue to the PSG, and ask him what he is going to do to correct the situation.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Sep 29 at 2020 2:54 PM

2020-09-29T14:54:12-04:00

Laziest NCO ever??? In your infinite wisdom from months and months of service???
He is correct, this is NCO territory. Your job is to establish a reasonable expectation with a sensible timeline for accomplishment. His job is to get it done. Once that has been made clear you hold the deficient soldier and his NCOs accountable. You are correct that 10 moths is ridiculous. Why have you let it go this long?
Your double talk about trusting the laziest NCO sham artist you've ever known shows inexperience and lack of confidence. Buck up LT. Have you even counseled him on what you expect??
Let me give you an example: "PFC Schmuckatelli has 1 month to pass the APFT. If he does not, it will be considered a leadership failure on your part and I will document it as such. Understand?"

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 29 at 2020 7:51 PM

2020-09-29T19:51:40-04:00

This post is very humorous to me. You’re a 2LT saying your PSG is the laziest NCO you ever seen? Unless you are prior service you haven’t seen too many NCOs. The ones in TRADOC don’t count.

Response by SFC Ricardo Ruiz made Sep 30 at 2020 2:56 AM

2020-09-30T02:56:39-04:00

Did you talk about this with your PSG?
This is the reason why the Army should not have 1st or 2nd LT in charge of personnel and instead be responsible of equipment. The Army should focus on training this young officers and once they have 4 to 5 years in service as officers then trust them with personnel. If you need advice on this seek your company commander or your 1SG. Realize this by now many people searched you in global and I’m sure your PSG knows you are talking about him behind his back.

Response by 1SG Ernest Stull made Jan 8 at 2021 3:32 PM

2021-01-08T15:32:37-05:00

Good bad or in different the PSG. is correct it is the SL. Job to get the soldier squared away with additional pt. And counseling. Yes the PSG should spot check the SL.

Response by SGT Jd Cannon made Jan 31 at 2021 11:14 PM

2021-01-31T23:14:14-05:00

1st I would like to point out how wrong I think it is that this discussion is here but I digress. If the NCO in question is as bad as you say, you should be having this discussion with his 1st LINE Supervisor. Micro-management is just as bad as no, or mis-, and better suited as the twin of the later. It seems like you have a more personal dislike for the NCO. The NCO is not failing the PT test, so the laziness is really on the soldier. He passed enough pt test to get here so you should probably talk to the soldier or have a group counseling so you can relay your expectations from His chain of command.

Response by SFC Randy Hellenbrand made Apr 13 at 2021 8:44 PM

2021-04-13T20:44:48-04:00

Is the PSGs enlistment up before he has his 20??? Anyway, it seems that you have failed in your own paper trail Sir. Start it now but I fear it is to late for this NCOER. And a few hints about not getting in his 20 should wake him up.

Response by SFC Brian Gillum made Apr 19 at 2021 12:53 AM

2021-04-19T00:53:06-04:00

Can you? Of course you can. Should you, now that is the better question.

Using the information you have provided, and in concurrence with several other comments, the short answer is no, you should not, at least not for the pretext of giving you some ammo for his NCOER.

In 10 months how have you not had a sit down with you Platoon Sergeant, if not for an official initial counseling, to just talk about expectations? Why have you not addressed your concerns to the Platoon Sergeant and asked specific questions to determine if those concerns have merit?

You may be his superior in the chain of command, but that Platoon Sergeant is going to be one of your best mentors regarding Army ins and outs. You may have an officer mentor, but never disregard the fact that you have a valuable resource of experience in your senior NCOs as well.