Can promotion consideration require a 200 PT score or higher, even though the soldier met the standard?

2016-03-18T17:30:47-04:00

Some soldiers met all standards set forth to make the EPS list, but didn't because the board would only consider those with a PT score of 200 or higher. Can they do that?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2016 6:01 PM

2016-03-18T18:01:37-04:00

Add to the standard but never take away. I knew a SFC platoon sergeant that would NOT send anyone to the promotion board unless they had a 270 or higher.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2016 6:11 PM

2016-03-18T18:11:15-04:00

And while it doesn't bear into the topic but at the same time it does....my BN CDR stipulated that anyone with less that 70% in ANY event of the APFT will perform a diagnostic every month until they meet the set standard for the BN. Even if they get 70/70/69....they are on remedial until 70 across the board.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Mar 18 at 2016 6:22 PM

2016-03-18T18:22:48-04:00

200 or worse is the bottom of the barrel. That's like a D+.

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made Mar 18 at 2016 6:27 PM

2016-03-18T18:27:03-04:00

I would certainly hope that a minimum PT/PRT/PFT score would be an integral part of consideration for promotion boards. "Meeting Standard" does NOT equate to meeting EXPECTATION.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Mar 18 at 2016 6:52 PM

2016-03-18T18:52:38-04:00

It's likely "not prohibited" by the Regulation which means that they "can indeed do that" (a commander can always add, but cannot take away). However, that does not make it correct.

The (minimum) standard is there for a reason. It's about "Total Package" and although a Soldier may have "only" gotten a 200 on his APFT he may be an Expert shot, maxed his PME and off-duty education, volunteer work, be tactically & technically proficient, and so forth. Using that "singular" delineator to remove them from consideration "may" be considered short-sighted.

That said, let's substitute the APFT score with his Rifle Score, and say that no with a "Marksman" (which I have never seen for promotion, but I have seen for schools) will be sent to Board, would that be considered appropriate? What about completion of educational requirements (which I have seen)?

Capt Mark Strobl your thoughts on the last paragraph? Specifically weapon score.

Response by SGT Jonathon Caldwell made Mar 18 at 2016 7:16 PM

2016-03-18T19:16:57-04:00

It's not showing the way of leading by example in my opinion. The soldier should be leading from the front. How in the hell are they going to run a PT session if in fact they themselves are struggling with PT. It's not going to make an ability group run any better if they can't push the pace even for "B" or "C" group. I was almost not boarded with a 268, my only savior was my PT test was on a rocky COP in Afghanistan and I only scored the 68 on the run and maxed the other 2 events. Just like the MOI for a board, it's suggested to study those topics because the majority of the questions will come from there. But you better know more about the Army than just that because they are going to ask questions about other subjects or situations. Better know them or you'll not be selected that way either.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2016 7:20 PM

2016-03-18T19:20:56-04:00

If it was up to me, it would be 270+. Fitness is not the only important factor of a Soldier's ability to perform, but if someone does not have the discipline and ambition to at least maintain their physical abilities... in a profession of warfare... regardless of MOS / branch... then they simply do not care enough to deserve promotion in my eyes. Today's Army and society is breeding acceptance of mediocrity. If someone does not cover all aspects of being an all around outstanding Soldier, then they should step aside for someone that does actually deserve a promotion. This goes for fitness, knowledge, marksmanship, MOS specific skills, all of it.

Response by MSG James Crowell made Mar 18 at 2016 7:48 PM

2016-03-18T19:48:58-04:00

for when i went to my E-6 i had to have 998 points and if you know anything what it like to get 998 in points when the max is 1000 so you had to do everything to make rank in the 1980 when they had a gut of E-4 and E-5 that when we had 18 active Divs

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2016 9:16 PM

2016-03-18T21:16:40-04:00

I'm 39 and I can score a 200 lol. If someone told me that I would say roger and laugh to my self lol

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Mar 18 at 2016 9:54 PM

2016-03-18T21:54:28-04:00

In the time of cutbacks and reduction, it will fly. If there was no cut back, you wouldn't see it. A board can set their standards. I remember when SQT played a very large roll in one's promotion.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2016 11:31 PM

2016-03-18T23:31:27-04:00

You want people to be leaders in combat but can't score more than a 200?!? Are you trying to get people killed? How can you expect that SM to be a leader in Com at when they can't even lead their men in some decent PT? It doesn't matter what the MOS is. Yes the APFT is not a very good test, but that's all the more reason someone should be able to pass it with more than a 200. If you were my SM and told me you wanted to send someone to the board with that score I'd laugh. If that SM wants to get promoted then they need to do some self reflection and start doing some PT.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2016 7:08 AM

2016-03-19T07:08:11-04:00

The ARMY created a standard. That standard is a 180 PT score to remain in the Army. Promotion criteria can be changed from board to board. There are some jobs out there that require the most physically fit people to be successful. There are some jobs that don't. There are some jobs that need a lot of people promoted quickly due to ETS or other reasons. If the ARMY doesn't like the 180 standard, then change it. If the Army wants to create a new rule that says only those with 200 or 250 can be promoted, then they might as well make that the new standard. The truth is the vast majority of jobs in the Army do not require 300 PT meatheads. The Air Force figured that out a long time ago. The Army also has fostered a culture that forces people to feel like everything needs to suck equally for everyone. Those that experience more suck than the guy next to them will complain constantly about it. They can't just be happy for the those who get to experience less suck. To summarize, the Army should either make 300 the new standard, or leadership should stop whining when someone meets the current standard of 180. What do you call a Soldiers who passes height/weight and/or body fat and makes a 180 PT Score? You call him a Soldier.

Response by CPT Mark Gonzalez made Mar 19 at 2016 11:52 AM

2016-03-19T11:52:59-04:00

Local policy is allowed and the leadership can modify these things as long as it doesn't take away from the Army reg. You may not like it, but it is legal.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2016 1:05 PM

2016-03-19T13:05:32-04:00

No, they can't. The standard is 180 minimum.

Response by SFC Marcus Belt made Mar 19 at 2016 2:53 PM

2016-03-19T14:53:48-04:00

So the Army makes a standard but a bunch of well meaning folks decide that the standard, the ARMY STANDARD is not good enough for them and their purposes and so then makes their own "standard".

Right.

So somebody says 270 ought to be the standard. Another says no, 300 ought to be the standard. But wait! Why don't we make it 300 and since the APFT does not accurately measure fitness, lets make up some new events!

B.S.

NCOs enforce ARMY STANDARDS.

Sure, somebody's gonna say " add to, never take away from."

Right. Enjoy your trip down that rabbit hole.

The only times in my Army career I've ever struggled with PT was immediately before and after my back surgeries.

We have never lost a war because of unfit Soldiers.

We've lost a few because of rigidity.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2016 4:15 PM

2016-03-19T16:15:45-04:00

I guess to better ask would be, even though the SM made the prescribed cutoff score to be added to the EPS list, they weren't because they did not have a 200+ PT score, only a 199. What is the purpose of the promotion point system, board, and army regulations if when it comes down to brass tacks none of it matters any way because higher up are going to make up rules as they go. I see it so much in children when playing games, if things do not benefit them then they make up or change the rules of the game.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2016 5:12 PM

2016-03-19T17:12:50-04:00

No, they can not.
Technically, one doesn't need to even pass the APFT to be considered, they just won't get the points for the PT test and are in a non-promotable status until the Flag is removed.

Having said that, such an individual had better have quite a resume, or they'll never get a "yes" vote from me.

One other point. The commander can decline promotion consideration for any reason. His requirement is to counsel the Soldier for the reason for declination, and advise him/her on what they need to do to be considered going forward.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2016 6:00 PM

2016-03-19T18:00:06-04:00

I know when I was enlisted my battalion never sent Joes that were at the bottom of the barrel.if you wanted to get promoted you had to work at it. The PT test is not hard. I just came off a 3 month P3 and still scored a 271. A soldier that shows a lack in this area I would want to be leading other soldiers and bringing his/her attitude to my formations.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2016 5:50 AM

2016-03-21T05:50:48-04:00

Good thing you finally found the AR relating to EPS. Now as a SGT.. You should probably already know how to find the regs , but I won't blame you for it, possibly a dirt bag above you never tought you. But if you have been to WLC or BLC, they definitely teach how to search regs.

But let's go with constructive today, for a moment.

Did you know that the AR for EPS just updated again as of Jan 2016? I am currently NG, huge changes for your E-4's. I believe active Army as well. Stop worrying about promotion and learn your freaking job SGT. You want to become a Staff Sergeant, in the United States Army, but can't find your own regs, how th heck are you going to take care of your Joes?

Lucky for your, the whole NCOER process is supposed to be changing over to a whole soldier concept rather than old way of shoot expert, have a pet badge. But part of the whole soldier is how well you lead your troops. If you can't research and find the info about promotions and boards..

I'll read a 300 page reg for breakfast if it lets me tactfully tell someone to kick rocks. I'll jump from AR to FM to DA PAM back to some other AR. THE ARMY HAS AN ANSWER FOR EVERYTHING. Black and White. No Grey.

But to answer your specific question, that is illegal according to the regs and could possibly has the whole board thrown out and the board records are kept for x amount of years.

***exception. 2 soldiers, completely equal pt marksmanship, duties etc, The board can look for a " positive" discriminator, assuming all other things are equal.

My advice- focus less on yourself and take care of your joes.

88M
2012 Distinguished Honor Grad AIT
13-14 OEF
Distinguished Honor Grad WLC
ABIC
SGL

Response by SrA Paul Pfeil made Mar 21 at 2016 1:08 PM

2016-03-21T13:08:34-04:00

Well, I would think they take those with the highest scores first.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2016 3:06 PM

2016-03-21T15:06:08-04:00

What really irks me, is where are the standards located for the Berghdal saga. Seems that no regulation has been followed so far, and his parents got invited to the WH.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Mar 21 at 2016 3:17 PM

2016-03-21T15:17:37-04:00

It is said that one should strive and accomplish to exceed standards. But the rule is just to meet.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2016 7:52 PM

2016-03-21T19:52:25-04:00

The portrayal of this character in Generation Kill is what you get when you promote "leaders" based off of brawn over brains.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 8:32 AM

2016-03-22T08:32:44-04:00

I don't see how that can happen.

Response by SGM D Rogero made Mar 22 at 2016 8:41 AM

2016-03-22T08:41:11-04:00

Chief that is a minimum standard. When do NCOs ask at a PT test to the scorer what is my max required for my age for this event? Instead they ask what is my minimum score required to pass?! They should be racked and stacked considering the scores in their files as well...you want to be minimum you will be promoted minimum as well. We will promoted you only if we need...that is the minimum!

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 1:08 PM

2016-03-22T13:08:03-04:00

Why not. Makes you better and more competitive. If someone is complaining about it they should put the beer down and do some real pt.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2016 7:33 AM

2016-05-18T07:33:38-04:00

AR 600-8-19
Section II
Promotion Eligibility Criteria
3–9. Eligibility criteria for recommendation and promotion
Establishment of more stringent criteria for use in determining eligibility for promotion recommendation other than provided for in this regulation is prohibited.