Can Soldiers be mandated to buy the new Physical Fitness Uniform now?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 14:53:41 -0500

The 1SG has mandated that all Soldiers within the Unit will buy the new uniform by May 1st.
Let me say that I do not personally mind buying it but can we mandate and give them a short suspense when the ARMY has already determined a wear out date?
I understand the you can always improve upon but not take away from but when it comes to expenses does this apply?

D. (U) THE WEAR OUT DATE FOR THE IPFU IS 30 SEP 17. THE MANDATORY POSSESSION DATE FOR THE APFU IS 1 OCT 17 (1QFY18).
ALARACT 209/2014

CSM Oldsen

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Feb 28 at 2015 3:01 PM

SGT Jim Z. — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 15:01:20 -0500

I do not agree with any leader mandating his/her Soldiers posses a uniform that is not mandatory yet as the ALARACT says. He can highly encourage but to make it mandatory is malarkey and if he uses the excuse the Army gives you a clothing allowance well yes but some peoples anniversary is not until June or later so that does not hold water either.

Response by COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM made Feb 28 at 2015 3:13 PM

COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 15:13:45 -0500

I do not believe your 1SG has to authority to mandate that all Soldiers within the unit buy the new PT uniform by May 1st. He/she is responsible for the standards and discipline within the company but he/she does not have the authority to set or change Army policy or guidance. If he/she thinks they do have the authority then I would love to be shown the Army Regulation that allows this.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 3:14 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 15:14:33 -0500

Thinking about this some more after SGT Jim Z.'s comment; The ARMY has determined a reasonable amount of time to acquire the new uniform.

They most likely came up with that date after research on cost and production for the whole force to obtain it properly and all the pieces that go with it.

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Feb 28 at 2015 3:14 PM

SPC(P) Jay Heenan — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 15:14:52 -0500

This is why we have regulations and ALARACT messages. They can't mandate it, but we all know the many, many ways they have to stall/kill your career if you choose to 'challenge their authority'.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 3:37 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 15:37:04 -0500

They changed twice while I was in. I had to buy both times.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Feb 28 at 2015 3:51 PM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 15:51:42 -0500

Technically no the 1SG nor CO can institute their own possession date. They can highly encourage it be done sooner than the mandatory date, but wouldn't have a leg to stand on if someone chose to wear the old uniform until the "drop-dead" date.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 4:05 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 16:05:27 -0500

The first time we has someone show up in the new IPFU, the majority of my company had never even seen it before.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 4:13 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 16:13:21 -0500

I totally concur with everyone stating that the 1SG can't make it mandatory. The reason behind the clothing allowance are provided to enlisted members upon the anniversary month, each successive year following the provision of an initial clothing allowance for replacement of required uniform items based on a normal wear rate (life expectancy). This makes me believe they put the mandatory procurement date so far out so that the amount a member earns, over the next few years, will be able pay for the entire set of new PTs.

2015 Military Clothing (Uniform) Allowance Rates | Military Benefits

The military clothing allowance tables below are effective as of October 1, 2014 through September 30th, 2015 for the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Feb 28 at 2015 6:36 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 18:36:57 -0500

I know this is a silly question, but have you tried the "open door" policy and just asked the 1SG (or the CSM) about it?

I'm not saying challenge him, but hell, sometimes leaders just don't think things through. He probably just saw somebody wearing the new PT uniform and is thinking "#%^%$# rainbow formations" and said "go out and get the new uniform" without making the logical thought to phase out date, or mandatory possession date. If no one actually brings it up to him, he may never realize it until some E2 says "1SG, I don't have that kind of money, I have 2 kids, and I'm not required until 2 years from now." and he goes to his PSGs and says "WTF, why didn't you tell me I was all jacked up?!?"

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 7:18 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 19:18:20 -0500

1SGs and CDRs can not mandated everyone to wear the new Army PT until after the wear our date. They can "highly encourage" Soldiers to purchase them as soon as they are financially able to. If they wanted to demonstrate to Soldiers how it could behoove them to purchase the new PT uniform sooner rather than later, they could do the following: At the PT formation on a Friday, separate personnel into 2 platoons; 1 with the IPFU and 1 with the new PT uniform. Have the PSGs take charge of their formations. The PSG with the new PT uniform platoon turns around and promptly yells "ZONK!" The PSG with the IPFU formation turns around and announces they are going to conduct a 8 mile run.

Response by SFC Stephen P. made Feb 28 at 2015 7:40 PM

SFC Stephen P. — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 19:40:51 -0500

I am fascinated by the consensus of comments on this topic in contrast to the green vs. blue service uniform.

https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/asu-and-class-a-s

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 7:49 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 19:49:32 -0500

Absolutely not. On the other hand the 1SG can require uniformity, but that would imply that everyone where the IPFU not the new APFU. The wear out date is black and white.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 9:25 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 21:25:53 -0500

I disagree with the mandating of troops to buy it. Lower enlisted generally get clothing allowances and such items to offset costs, Reservists get clothing issued to them. There is NO reason to push it.

Yeah, yeah...I get it. Uniformity means everything is the same. However, as long as it's an authorized uniform, there is going to be that transition time. Anybody remember having BDUs in the formation? Think people are gonna throw a tantrum when the Scorpion camo pattern ACU is issued?

If you have a Soldier that you think is having a hard time paying for it, I would advise the 1SG and explain to them the ALARACT. The intent is that Soldiers wear the OLD IPFU until the new uniform goes to hell. You can also advise him that the out-of-pocket cost for the summer and winterweight (one set only) is $160. I know...I purchased them.
v/r,
CPT Butler

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 11:04 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 23:04:39 -0500

I believe the 1SG has the right to make that call for their Soldiers to buy before the deadline…… as long as he is willing to stand at the front of the line at Clothing and Sales and pay for each and every one of them…. now after the deadline, the Soldier is all on their own.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 1 at 2015 12:20 AM

COL Charles Williams — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 00:20:15 -0500

No, a 1SG, nor a local commander for that matter, cannot mandate all Soldiers switch to the new APFU by an arbitrary date. The Army makes wear out dates for a reason.... One of them is to give career Soldiers time to react, and the other so first term Soldiers who are not staying on don't have to waste money.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2015 1:40 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 01:40:50 -0500

I have a very simple answer. The answer is yes, the 1SG can. How? Because that's what your clothing allowance is for! Yet, there is still debate over should or should not.

Think back to the ASU-Greens and the now ASU-Blues. Per ALARACT 099/2011, DTG: R 161504Z Mar 11, the wear out date for the Greens is the 4TH Quarter of FY 2015. That means that Soldiers are still authorized to wear the Greens until that deadline. ETS and retirement should be taken into consideration. Soldiers that ETS or retire before the wear out date may be directed that they are not required to purchase the new uniform. However, Soldier's whose contractual obligation exceeds past the wear out date, will eventually have to purchase the new uniform.

So, for those Soldiers whose ETS or retirement dates that are beyond the wear out date, why procrastinate and fight something you're going to have to conform to anyways?

My ETS was one month after the wear out date for the Greens. Did I want to shell out the money? No! Was I going to have to anyways? Yes! Did I argue with it? No! Why? Because that's what your clothing allowance is for!

I already hear Soldier complaining about it. Then I remind them about their clothing allowance. If they don't want to buy the uniform, they can give back that +$300.

Response by SFC Jeremy Smith made Mar 1 at 2015 3:36 AM

SFC Jeremy Smith — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 03:36:59 -0500

It is like the uniforms before this, the Army issued a wear out date. You get a uniform allowance and will have them by then....pretty much mandatory but at least enlisted get a yearly uniform allowance.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2015 6:59 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 06:59:38 -0500

The First Sergeant sets the uniform, if the Command team desires to have all to change to the new PT by a certain date it is their right, that why Active duty gets a Uniform Allowance, so they can purchase new uniforms. Mandatory Possession Date just mean that is the date you must have, but you may possess prior to that date.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2015 8:09 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 08:09:33 -0500

As a fellow First Sergeant (at least for a couple more weeks), I would advise that 1SG that his duty in this case is to work through his supply sergeant to ensure that those items are ordered for all assigned personnel. Once the clothing arrives and is issued, the 1SG can require it to be worn in future formations.
Since this is a new item, it is to be expected that certain sizes will be more difficult to find. It may well be beyond May 1 before this can be issued to 100% of assigned personnel. He will also need to figure out how to handle newly assigned personnel.

He absolutely cannot dictate that personnel expend money on a clothing bag item.

Response by SSG Brian Myers made Mar 1 at 2015 8:13 AM

SSG Brian Myers — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 08:13:13 -0500

I can remember when the army switched from the grey sweats to the ipfu and we had to purchase the new uniforms ourselves. Just like bdu's. If they get worn out or dont fit anymore you have to buy new ones

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2015 10:00 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 10:00:37 -0500

Even if the 1SG was allowed to make this happen, good luck...I can't speak for other installations, but at Ft Bragg, these new uniforms are flying off the shelf as soon as they arrive. It took me 3 months to get a complete set, not too mention that having extra shorts/shirts is going to take some additional time.

The Army puts a timeline for clothing items in place for a reason and one of those is the time it takes to produce/ship personal wear items.

Before heading off to IG, I would bring these issues to your 1SG in a professional manner. I don't know the relationship you have with your 1SG, but, that's my recommendation.

Response by MSG Martin C. made Mar 1 at 2015 11:10 AM

MSG Martin C. — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 11:10:22 -0500

No a None-Commisioned Officer cannot make such mandate neither their company commander the Army has an official wear out date and that is the standard unless the Army dictates otherwise.
Telling Soldiers to go purchase the new APFU as a mandatory task is not the right thing to do one must take in consideration the economical burden such purchase can cause to the junior Soldiers. If a Soldiers has and authorized uniform that's servicesable there is no need to make them purchase the new uniform. I would encourage Soldier to buy a few items every quarter and upon receiving their anual clothing allowance so when 2017 gets here the SM is ready and did not have to go in debt to purchase PT gear at the last minute, it's called being proactive vs reactive.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2015 11:25 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 11:25:11 -0500

As an acting 1SG, I would never mandate a Soldier to buy any uniform that is issued by the Army unless that Soldier destroyed government property. The Army puts forth regulations for a reason, to follow them! This 1SG has stepped out side his lane of authority and by mandating that Soldiers take money out of their own pockets should not be allowed.

Response by SPC David Shaffer made Mar 1 at 2015 6:46 PM

SPC David Shaffer — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 18:46:10 -0500

In my opinion, everything that is "required" should be issued to soldiers first, and then made the soldiers responsibility to keep free from defect, and replaced as needed.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Mar 1 at 2015 6:53 PM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 18:53:22 -0500

I got it, you are asking a question that you know the answer to.....but it seems to me that you do mind getting the new uniform a little early.....makes me wonder if you have/wear your unit shirt on Division runs?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2015 8:29 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Mar 2015 20:29:20 -0500

I could see the senior NCO's getting them to show how tone ahead of the game.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2015 9:43 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Mar 2015 21:43:04 -0500

Though I understand that your 1SG is looking to get uniformity as unit as quick as possible. aHowever the Army has set 1 Oct 2017 as the mandatory possession date for Army personnel. Hopefully your PSG (or you if you're a PSG), has inquired with him concerning the DA mandated date and discuss the required date.

Hopefully the unit leadership, will come together and set the example and get the uniform at one time as a leadership team, set the example, and then encourage the Jr. Leaders and Soldiers to follow suit. That would get the Soldiers into the new uniform a lot quicker then he current method.

Response by CW3 Craig Linghor made Mar 2 at 2015 10:52 PM

CW3 Craig Linghor — Mon, 02 Mar 2015 22:52:33 -0500

I think the uniform is missing one very essential item...the PT belt. Without one you are in grave danger...lol.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 1:54 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 01:54:29 -0500

To all that read this...this 1SG is one of the reasons the Army is going to crap these days. We have toxic leaders amongst our ranks that do not think the rules, regulations, and orders from superiors apply to them. This is EXTRMEMLY sad and unfitting of a Senior NCO, will this action reflect on his NCOER, probably not but it should because it has effected his unit for over 90 days. Make this guy pay for his dumb uneducated mistake, the Army is good at making Junior Soldiers paying for their mistakes, but Senior Leaders can skate by day and day out. WHY?, because they have the experience...I call the BS card, if he had the experience here, he would know he can't mandate before the wear date. This is all I have to say about this matter. Yours truly...

A Pissed off SFC in Alaska

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2015 7:34 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 07:34:27 -0500

No, the message was put out for a reason. He has NO authority to do so.

Response by SGT Jason McVey made Mar 5 at 2015 3:04 PM

SGT Jason McVey — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 15:04:02 -0500

No he can not. Challenge that make him charge you for that.

Response by SGT Tyler G. made Mar 5 at 2015 10:19 PM

SGT Tyler G. — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 22:19:41 -0500

With regards to enlisted, whenever a new uniform comes out the Army must issue the first set whether it be your dress uniform, your pt uniform, or your camo. Your unit's supply section should be handling this. Officers must purchase their own I believe. As always someone correct me if I'm wrong, but this is my understanding of Army policy.

Response by MSG Bobby Ewing made Mar 8 at 2015 3:55 AM

MSG Bobby Ewing — Sun, 08 Mar 2015 03:55:13 -0400

No one can mandate a new wear date for new uniforms unless the Army's date has already past. The only Soldiers that would be required to wear the uniforms prior to the Army's date are those Soldiers who were issued the new APFUs in basic, but one such Soldier could purchase the current IPFUs and still wear them because they are authorized for wear.

I'm not sure how things work in the Reserves or National Guard because I have had a chance to research this a little further.

Several individuals have tried similar situations like this for the introduction of the IPFUs and the ACUs. One can only think what will happen when the OCPs come out.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2015 1:40 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Mar 2015 13:40:41 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member the clothing allowance for a first term soldier is $153, at least that's what I got. That is good for a new pair of boots or a new set of ACUs with a pair of PCs and maybe get your new ranks on your ASUs if you got automatically promoted, like me. I know NCOs get a lot more in clothing allowance but you have to think about the junior enlisted too.

Response by SSG Rob Cline made Mar 12 at 2015 1:57 PM

SSG Rob Cline — Thu, 12 Mar 2015 13:57:23 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member If anything, your 1SG can HIGHLY recommend that the Soldiers in your unit purchase the new PFU, with the caveat that the Soldier's purchase them upon receipt of their yearly clothing allowance.
1SG probably just wants everyone in the same uniform for appearances sake.

Sparta Lives!

Response by SFC Walt Littleton made Mar 13 at 2015 9:46 AM

SFC Walt Littleton — Fri, 13 Mar 2015 09:46:48 -0400

In the 70-80's when a new uniform was mandated by the Dept of the Army each unit supply rooms were issued the number and size required for the initial issue and it was added to your clothing record. Replacement and maintenance of the item/s were through your personal clothing allowance.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2015 10:08 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 Mar 2015 22:08:03 -0400

No the 1SG can't do that. Im wearing my old ones until I can get at least 2 sets of the new PTs

Response by CH (COL) Geoff Bailey made Jun 12 at 2015 9:48 PM

CH (COL) Geoff Bailey — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 21:48:13 -0400

Nope...cannot require what the Army has not required.

Response by CSM Carl Cunningham made Sep 6 at 2015 3:34 AM

CSM Carl Cunningham — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 03:34:00 -0400

Is this stuff real? I really have a hard time believing that there are still senior NCO's making these comments, especially with instant access to information in today's technological world. Ugh.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2015 1:18 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Sep 2015 13:18:56 -0400

That's a negative. Even now it is difficult to get them pretty much anywhere. If the Army has a DX date then even a 1SG can't say you have to get them. It would be the same if they said something about wearing OCPs when you are allowed to wear ACUs until 2019. Take it up with your CO if you're that worried about it.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2015 9:11 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 09:11:03 -0400

AR 670-1 para. 2-6(f):
"Commanders will not require individuals to purchase optional uniform items. Likewise, they will not restrict or discourage them from wearing optional uniform items authorized by this regulation, except in those instances where uniformity is required, such as parades or formations."

If a commander cannot require it, a 1SG definitely cannot. He can only restrict the wear of option uniform or uniform components for ceremonial or uniformity, but Soldiers cannot be required to possess optional (new) uniforms prior to wear out.