Can somebody be told to write their own adverse counseling statement?

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 18:24:15 -0400

I know this 1LT who was just told by her commander that she needs to write up her own counseling statement in regards to delinquent GOVTCC bill. Can this 1LT write her own negative counseling or does the Commander have to write it. I've done some digging but I guess I haven't dug deep enough since I cannot find anything. My NCO instincts is that she cannot write her own form. Does anyone know the correct answer and what reg this would fall under?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2015 6:25 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 18:25:48 -0400

Sounds to me like lazy leadership...

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Aug 23 at 2015 6:26 PM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 18:26:51 -0400

I am certain the command has a form. If not there is an Army form. to create one is unnecessary and probably won't wont comply with Army standards.

Response by SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL made Aug 23 at 2015 6:26 PM

SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 18:26:52 -0400

MSG Private RallyPoint Member should be her supervisor enticing discipline, leadership traits. Leading by example, she should never write her own counseling.

Response by MSgt Curtis Ellis made Aug 23 at 2015 6:33 PM

MSgt Curtis Ellis — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 18:33:16 -0400

It's the same as punishing yourself in the place of your Commander... No bueno... This is considered a punishment.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Aug 23 at 2015 6:34 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 18:34:38 -0400

Ignore the specific type of document for a moment. Most documents aren't actually written by the signator. They don't have to be. The CO doesn't write everything he signs. His signature just means he endorses and agrees with the content. He is well within his power to delegate the writing of said content. On a great many things we expect him do so.

Now, when it comes to counselling statements, having the person most responsible for the incident actually write the counselling may actually be part of the learning process. It may be figuratively "teaching them a lesson" in that they fully understand what they did wrong, as they are able to articulate what they did, why it was wrong, and to drive the point home. It's "homework" so to speak.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2015 6:36 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 18:36:29 -0400

MSG Private RallyPoint Member, unfortunately the LT can write theirs own counseling form, is it right, no, is the CDR lazy, in my opinion.....YES. If it's important enough to warrant a 4856, then you as the leader should write it. Do NCO's and Officers write their own NCOER's and OER's.....yes. In my almost 17 years in the Army, I've seen a lot of self writing report cards. I even had a Commander tell me to write my own OER and that he would just sign it. I was speechless and explained to him how wrong he was. He then told me to give him my support form and basically copied it word for word and that was that. I ended up re-writing it myself anyway. My Commander didn't care.

Response by SMSgt Tony Barnes made Aug 23 at 2015 6:36 PM

SMSgt Tony Barnes — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 18:36:30 -0400

As long as it's considered remedial training...perfectly legal.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Aug 23 at 2015 6:39 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 18:39:13 -0400

When a leader subordinate is told to write their own counseling statement, it forces them to examine their situation, why they were wrong, how they can improve it, and what corrective training is suggested. This also forces them to be completely honest. Failing to pay a government credit card is a obviously a "no-no", and there is not doubt about that.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 23 at 2015 6:50 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 18:50:05 -0400

Do you know why she is delinquent?

Response by COL Jon Thompson made Aug 23 at 2015 7:05 PM

COL Jon Thompson — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 19:05:18 -0400

I would bet that the commander is doing this as a learning process for the LT. Delinquency on a government credit card is no joke and that gets a lot of visibility up and down the chain. If one of the LT's Soldiers did this, she would be doing the counseling. So this would be a tool to teach the LT how important this issue is. I think what is more important is what does the commander do with it.

Response by PO2 Corey Ferretti made Aug 23 at 2015 7:05 PM

PO2 Corey Ferretti — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 19:05:59 -0400

I have seen it done once as a learning experience. It did not go as an official one.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2015 7:11 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 19:11:36 -0400

They absolutely can. Not only that, it can be a form of leader development. The same goes with NCOERs. It serves to develop the one thing most junior officers and many mid-grade NCOs have a serious deficiency in, their writing skills. When writing their own counseling, a junior officer would be forced to research which regulations or policies they violated and develop a plan of action. The one thing that should never be written by a soldier is their own award.

To all those who say lazy commander, I say you are missing out on a great tool to develop your subordinate leaders.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2015 9:58 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Aug 2015 21:58:22 -0400

The correct answer is that everything signed by the commander is supposed to be written by him. This includes positive and negative counseling, Evals, and fitness reports. Reality however is that it almost never happens that way.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 24 at 2015 12:06 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Mon, 24 Aug 2015 12:06:58 -0400

As her commander, I would take the informal approach. Some soldiers fall in to a severe depression when they bury their relatives. She probably does not have her A-Game going on. I can see where the LT might build up a tremendous amount of resentment for the lack of compassion shown to her, but I suppose it will be a positive or negative teaching tool.

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Aug 26 at 2015 12:35 PM

LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow — Wed, 26 Aug 2015 12:35:50 -0400

This is a huge shirking of responsibility on the part of both. The LT for improper use of her card - if she were enlisted, she'd probably be at the "Green table". The CDR for being lazy. It's one thing to make it an object lesson, but nonetheless, it's the CDR's responsibility to do this...

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made Aug 30 at 2015 6:11 AM

PFC Tuan Trang — Sun, 30 Aug 2015 06:11:00 -0400

I might be wrong, But all officers have power to write counseling.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 11 at 2015 10:23 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 Oct 2015 22:23:14 -0400

Why would you ever write your own adverse counseling statement? Kinda like writing your own NCOER.
I think Not.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2019 1:11 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Apr 2019 01:11:51 -0400

I had this happen. I recommended myself for an award. The leader redid the counseling.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 5 at 2019 7:50 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Fri, 05 Apr 2019 19:50:43 -0400

I wonder why she was delinquent on payment.