Can somebody require you get an APFT score above the Army standard before sending you to a school?

2015-07-28T14:48:43-04:00

Is it appropriate for anyone in a Soldier's NCO Support Channel or Chain of Command to demand they score a specific percentage above the Army standard on an APFT for school prior to approving or recommending approval of their school packet? Aside from certain specific schools such as Ranger School where you have to pass an APFT in the 18 yr/old bracket regardless of age, is not the minimum Army standard the standard period?

Response by CPT Chris Loomis made Jul 28 at 2015 3:24 PM

2015-07-28T15:24:07-04:00

I'd support that unless somebody found an AR stating otherwise. Hell, I make sure I'm well above standard just for the mere fact that I'm an Officer!

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jul 28 at 2015 3:47 PM

2015-07-28T15:47:05-04:00

Yes & no.

It depends on what the school's purpose and requirements are.

If it is a "physical" school, ensuring that the proposed applicant is physically fit is a good measure. Ensuring they will pass the initial Physical Fitness Test is being a good steward of the People's money, and unit funding as SFC Jerry C. said. If the applicant cannot meet the demands of the school, all is for naught.

If the school is more "career progression" based or "mental" in nature, you absolutely have to meet the minimum standards, but the physical requirements become a secondary concern as compared to everything else. Requiring a higher score becomes overly coercive, and can prevent career progression, effectively shutting someone's ability to advance down. This creates a ripple effect. If you can't get promoted because you can't go to a school, then why are you going to bother to try to increase your score?

Leadership needs to weigh all these factors, and determine whether they need to make determinations for those who are "borderline" as APFT events.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Jul 28 at 2015 3:48 PM

2015-07-28T15:48:57-04:00

SGT(P) I thought it was an ignorant "local" policy as I saw it often when I was in. But looking at it from the units side, they're trying to ensure that if the Soldier was to fail, it wasn't because they failed the APFT. The command doesn't want to look bad or get any "good" phone calls from said school saying they sent a Solder who couldn't make the simplest of standards. 180 from all three is the standard, but would you as a leader want to send a Soldier to any school where they require an APFT to get in or graduate and they can barely pass when back home? Would you want to be in 1SG or the CSM's office after that comes down?

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 28 at 2015 3:50 PM

2015-07-28T15:50:28-04:00

In order for me to attend WLC last year, my unit required that I score 70 percent or better. I had to take an APFT 90, 60, and 30 days before my school date, and then of course, my APFT at WLC.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Jul 28 at 2015 3:51 PM

2015-07-28T15:51:48-04:00

Standards are standards! However, sometimes leaders make decisions based on the idea that they are backed into a corner and have to set conditions to protect the organization (from embarrassment and unwanted bad press).

Do you want to understand why some Leaders/Units require more than the bare minimum? There are schools that when a NCO fails an APFT, the company 1SG and CSM are required to send a "RBI" directly to the SMA (Sergeant Major of the Army), that is right, from the unit to the top!

let's peel the onion back a little here....regardless if you agree or not, this was the root cause that led to the current environment....there were many NCOs that were "DA Selected" for Drill Sergeant & Recruiter duty, they showed up to school and intentionally failed the APFT and were sent back to home station (back to their platoon).....how was the SMA able to get around that epidemic - he made it painful, very painful on the unit when it happened. Many units then started "requiring" APFT scores above the minimum, and many required the NCO score above a 220 points.

Hopefully this makes the situation make a little more sense by understanding the background - regardless of the minimum standard, the environment presented some leaders with the feeling that they had to make changes to cover their butts.....I'm not asking if you agree, but, does it make a little more sense?

Response by SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA made Jul 28 at 2015 3:55 PM

2015-07-28T15:55:19-04:00

Every unit I've been, in order for them to send you to a school, they would have soldiers score 10 points above the school or Army published standard.
Their reasoning was "to make sure when you take the pre-admission APFT you actually pass it"

In other words, the rationale is that School Cadre would be "more strict" in their scoring of say pushups or situps (whether you broke the plane or how horizontal is horizontal).
So, if you pass with a higher score at our unit APFT with our "non-cadre" scorers, in theory you should be able to pass with lower but more "strict" scorers.

Which is another way of saying "we want to cover our rear ends".

Army or specific school standard should be the only standard, not individual units or commands.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 28 at 2015 4:07 PM

2015-07-28T16:07:59-04:00

Airborne school actually requires that all individuals take and pass the APFT in the 18-21 y/o bracket once they get to Benning.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 28 at 2015 4:58 PM

2015-07-28T16:58:19-04:00

Is it possible that they use the APFT to create an order of merit list? I haven't been active duty in quite some time, but in the National Guard we only get so many allotments for a given school in a fiscal year, and then based on funding we may not even be able to fill all those seats. So the chances of someone who just barely passes the APFT getting sent home (depending on the school) are higher, and would then be a waste of the training seat and funding.

If there's no limit to reservation requests your unit can submit, then I don't necessarily see why there would be an issue unless it's a course that will dis-enroll for failing the APFT at the school house. Then again, that would be a waste of money.

In the end, many leaders prefer to reward those that strive for excellence. Why allow someone who's simply eligible but doesn't go above and beyond when there's someone else chomping at the bit to better them self and their career?

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jul 28 at 2015 7:50 PM

2015-07-28T19:50:01-04:00

It would be a great embarrassment to fail an APFT at school. I had an E-7 fail an APFT at 1SG's school. The Battalion Commander gave me the options to put it in his NCOER or he would do it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 1 at 2015 11:34 AM

2015-09-01T11:34:38-04:00

Command can establish guidelines and standards - perks of command, also helps ensure that qualified SM that are ready for school are going. 60% average dependent on age bracket in the PU, SU and Run events is the minimum passing standard for a SM without a profile to meet to be a qualified SM in the ARMY.
However Command can and usually requires SM to meet a 70% minimum in the 3 events to ensure that school house jitters or nervousness is not a fail factor. I have seen SM go to school meeting the 70% minimums at Home Unit only to fail out because they are not able to meet the required 60% standard at the school. SM borderline on weight may also have to meet a certain body fat percentage.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2015 10:16 AM

2015-12-29T10:16:15-05:00

Yes. I'm in an Army Reserve drill sergeant unit and we require our candidates to get at least 70 points in each event before going to school. The standard at the school is what we go by.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2015 10:25 AM

2015-12-29T10:25:02-05:00

Some of these comments are blowing my mind. Go ahead and do the bare minimum and just get by. I like that certain schools have a higher standard. If it was easy EVERYONE would do it. If your in the reserves and you come to my unit you will meet our standard or find another unit. It's that simple. We have transferred more people than we have actually sent to DSS. If they met the Army standard good for them, they aren't flagged which is good. Your not going to school though. Bye Felicia.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 10:18 AM

2016-05-10T10:18:47-04:00

My unit does. However if you don't meet that standard you won't get flagged. You simply don't go to school. You only get so many times to prove yourself though and then your gone. We put soldiers in the IRR all the time because they can't meet our standard.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2018 6:18 PM

2018-11-05T18:18:25-05:00

When I went to WLC they made me pass an APFT at a min of 70 in each event. At the time they were having an issue with soldiers failing the APFT at WLC. They also made everyone retake it, even if you passed above 70, because they did not tell us of the raised standard.