Can you conduct IWQ with CCO prior to zeroing iron sights on a new weapon?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Oct 2018 22:22:53 -0400

Brand new weapons systems (M4). Granted you do a good PME with beam hit, can you IWQ with M68/CCO without actually zeroing the weapons iron sights? Are there any regs/ training guidance on this?

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2018 10:42 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Oct 2018 22:42:22 -0400

SSG, as far as the guidance I've received goes CCO zeros to the optic itself not the weapon. Iron sights zero to the person so it changes everytime. Once a CCO is zeroed it can be fired by anyone. Hope this helps.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2018 10:47 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Oct 2018 22:47:00 -0400

Optics replace the iron sights as your aiming mechanism so if you’re using optics you’re going to zero that device instead of the iron sights.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2018 11:02 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Oct 2018 23:02:13 -0400

You only use the iron sights to give a battle sight zero for the CCO. You can find all the information in the small weapons handbook which should still be on AKO somewhere.

Response by SGT Russell Wickham made Oct 5 at 2018 7:35 AM

SGT Russell Wickham — Fri, 05 Oct 2018 07:35:08 -0400

I've done it both ways, but I like the peace of mind of knowing that if something happens to the optic, I can switch to the backup sights and stay in the fight. Batteries die, combat damage happens, Murphy strikes, so having a redundant system is helpful. In an IWQ, it's not necessary to have the backup sights zeroed, although I've never seen the regs on that, but I still wouldn't go on the range without knowing that backup was there.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2018 12:29 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Oct 2018 12:29:46 -0400

I'm gonna blast your question with a ton of information so hopefully afterwards you will understand the "why" instead of just having to rely on a few opinions. There is a little bit of misinformation that I've seen on here. I'm a sniper and marksmanship master trainer. I have competed regionally, nationally, and internationally as a competitive shooter for the All Guard International Combat Team and as an action shooter (multigun, USPSA).

Back in the day, shooters would "lollipop" the red dot on the front sight post to achieve consistent sight alignment. Due to parallax, if you did not achieve a consistent sight alignment with each shot, the point of impact (POI) would differ from your point of aim (POA). While you may not notice much of a shift at 25m, especially with your average shooter, it could cause wide misses at 300m. Even when this was still the standard it was not necessary to zero the iron sights unless you were going to cowitness the dot while looking through the iron sights. It is still necessary to shoot rounds to confirm even if you get an initial zero on your CCO by cowitnessing. Because the M68 CCO is now considered "parallax-free" you do not have to have a consistent sight alignment with the front sight post or even the center of the visual field. Essentially, if you break a clean shot the round will impact at the dot... whether the dot was all the way left, or centered, or barely visible in the top right corner of your lens.

For zeroing the CCO, I recommend an initial zero at 50m on paper and then further refinement on paper targets at 200m (if you only have access to a 50m range then you can get away with just zeroing here). Due to the ballistic arc (trajectory) of the round, you will have less deviation when aiming center mass across the course of an automated record fire range (25-300m). If you insist on a 25/300m zero, you will see many shooters have misses at mid distances (150-200m) because the POI is approximately 7-10 inches higher than POA at those distances.

If you only have a 25m range to zero, aim center mass on the new A8? targets and zero your weapon so your impact is 2 boxes (0.5 inches) low. This will get you close to a 50/200m zero with the M855A1 ammo. It is a better battlesight zero - a zero that you an engage all targets with a center mass POA and achieve consistent hits.

Feel free to message me if you, or anyone else, has any further questions.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2018 7:03 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 Oct 2018 19:03:56 -0400

You don’t need to zero the irons.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2018 5:18 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Oct 2018 05:18:34 -0400

You zero and qual w iron sights then once you’re confident that your irons are good you put on the CCO and lollipop it to your iron sights then put down the rear iron sight and start zeroing in your red dot till you know w out a doubt that where ever the red dot points that’s where your round will impact.

Response by SFC David Bentley made Oct 7 at 2018 1:12 PM

SFC David Bentley — Sun, 07 Oct 2018 13:12:23 -0400

If we can admit we don't want to be basic then Basic Rifle Marksmanship just won't do; ALT C targets and beam hit are the Pumpkin Spice Latte and UGG Boot of the shooting world. Step 1, go to Small Arms Weapons Expert Course. https://ngmtc.wordpress.com/sawe/ or find an equivalent. I went through this training and was the SME for my BN/BDE for a number of years before I retired. I also had the additional duty for RFMISS and tamis.army.mil. handling ammunition and ranges. I bet you didn't know that your beam hit laser needs a zero before you can use it. Step two: read Rifle and Carbine TC 3-22.9: This publication supersedes FM 3-22.9, 12 August 2008 //armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/TC%203-22x9%20C1%20INCL%20FINAL%20WEB.pdf, this has the updates. Review the conduct of fire for weapon systems and read the M4 TM. Read the optic TM. Look in the back of the TC, there are quite a few pubs referenced that no one in the S3 shop has ever seen or touched. One of the problems is officers went through hokey ROTC ranges in college, then we task 2LTs with writing range MOIs, why would we have someone with no experience or training in small arms conduct training or write the memorandum for instruction. NCOs train, Not Officers. Remember: Competence is my watchword. My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind—accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my Soldiers. I will strive to remain technically and tactically proficient. I am aware of my role as a noncommissioned officer.

SAWE

COURSE OVERVIEW: The Small Arms Weapon Expert course (SAWE) provides an intense learning experience in small arms training, maintenance, and qualification. The SAMG Course was discontinued and this…