Can you have morality and an ethical code without a God?

2015-05-26T12:48:06-04:00

Is it possible to have morality, to have an ethical code, to live according to 'right' and 'wrong' boundaries - without acknowledgement of a God?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 12:54 PM

2015-05-26T12:54:18-04:00

Yes, and I find the implication of the opposite to be mildly offensive.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not taking this personally, as I'm assuming you don't mean to offend or attack anyone in particularly, but merely to start a dialogue on the subject, which I applaud.

The godless are just as likely to be good or evil as anyone else. If you don't buy this, I have some interesting statistics regarding prisoner populations and religiosity.

Response by COL Ted Mc made May 26 at 2015 1:03 PM

2015-05-26T13:03:30-04:00

MORALITY - "What you tell me I should do."

ETHICS - "What I tell myself I should do."

Strangely enough I don't see "God" in either of those two definitions.

PS - If you look at history, you are going to find that "Ethics" trumps "Morality" almost every time. [HINT - Ask a German (in 1942) if it was morally OK to kill a six month old infant by beating it to death with a rifle butt. Then ask them if it was ethically OK to kill all Jews regardless of age or method.]

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 1:19 PM

2015-05-26T13:19:27-04:00

Of course it is possible to live right from wrong without of guiding light of an deity. Morals are what are picked up on from society. I think that is why as a nation (the US) it doesn’t really matter what religion, or lack thereof, a person is, morally we all have the same blueprint. What makes us different how we take those moral basic guidelines and what we build on them- what becomes our values, ethics, and character.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made May 26 at 2015 1:19 PM

2015-05-26T13:19:57-04:00

I think it is very possible to have an ethical code without belief in God, but true morality looks to eternal values.

A moral code follows laws higher than self, while ethics looks to self for guidance.

In my humble opinion.

Response by SGT David T. made May 26 at 2015 1:58 PM

2015-05-26T13:58:02-04:00

Absolutely one can. I know several atheist and agnostics that have better moral compasses than many religious folks. Religion is not necessary for morality, however religions have a sense of morality built into them.

Response by SGT Anthony Rossi made May 26 at 2015 2:52 PM

2015-05-26T14:52:55-04:00

Short answer, Yes! However when left to our own conscience we can become rather inconsistant. It is possible to have a level of morality without God. Yet this doesn't mean it will be correct.
All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits. -Proverbs 16:2

Yet without Gods help our "self" imposed morality will fail.
O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. -Jeremiah 10:23

Response by SrA Matthew Knight made May 26 at 2015 3:08 PM

2015-05-26T15:08:33-04:00

Of course. Say what you will about the Boondock Saints, this quote couldn't be more true, "Do not kill, do not rape, do not steal, these are principles which every man of every faith can embrace. These are not polite suggestions — these are codes of behavior."

It doesn't matter what you believe, right and wrong are aspects of ones life that must be understood and adhered to. The golden rule and even a number of the Ten Commandments are just basic moral codes and you don't have to be religious in anyway to recognize and adhere to that. It's what makes humans human.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 4:15 PM

2015-05-26T16:15:07-04:00

As a Secular Humanist, I strive to be good without (belief in any) god every day.

The insinuation that one can't be is offensive, poisonous, and far too common.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 7:07 PM

2015-05-26T19:07:44-04:00

I would really question in what do you mean by God or Gods. There have been many moral societies that had various interpretations of what God is. There are still societies would there where they have had no influence from the outside world. Like the tribes in Brazil. Even yet I believe there is a sense of a common understanding of morality. We by nature know that it is bad to murder and steal. CS Lewis wrote of such things. Does having faith mean you are automatically moral? Nope. Faith tends to aid in aligning ones norms to what is acceptable to society. But then again it can also deviate from them also. Salem witch trials are one example of this. It really depends on the person to be honest. I just don't want to focus on the Christian understanding of morality as being the point of reference for all others.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made May 26 at 2015 7:14 PM

2015-05-26T19:14:13-04:00

You can have one (moral code) without a belief in God but what is it based upon? The individuals view of right and wrong, moral and immoral?

I am not arguing that a religious person executes morality correctly and a non religious person does not. What is the standard? Who sets it? If one persons moral compass says lying and cheating are okay, who is to say he or she is wrong without a "higher authority". Why is it wrong to lie and cheat? If we all can have a moral code based upon our own system of belief or non belief then a breakdown is not far away. Something we are seeing more and more in this country today in my opinion.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 7:56 PM

2015-05-26T19:56:33-04:00

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." Attributed to Charles Carroll, signer of the Declaration of Independence

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 12:04 PM

2015-05-27T12:04:30-04:00

I guess my question would be why could you not? Im not an atheist, or a church go-er but I believe there could be a god and what not (not 100% what my belief is) but why couldn't you have morality/an ethical code without that acknowledgement?

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made May 27 at 2015 12:08 PM

2015-05-27T12:08:49-04:00

I find something slightly odd about people that require the threat of eternal punishment from a supernatural entity to lead an ethical life.

Response by SSG(P) Brian Kliesen made May 27 at 2015 12:58 PM

2015-05-27T12:58:57-04:00

Yes, and it is unfortunate that in our current religious climate that those who do not recognize a specific religion or supreme being are often called into question for their non-belief.

Response by SGT Anthony Bussing made May 27 at 2015 1:54 PM

2015-05-27T13:54:08-04:00

Sure you can...I claim my self to be an atheist. I do not believe in god or any other higher power, including trees, witches or elements....that being said, I also do NOT have a problem with people of faith. I have no problem of "in god we trust" or "So help me god" on coins, pledges or anything else.

My Girlfriend is a very religious person. I encourage her to go to church every sunday when she gets off work (She is a labor and delivery nurse who works 12 hour shifts on weekends) I quiz her on her bible studies. My daughter is 12 and she is also religious..I also encourage her.

I live my life by the tenets of "treat everyone the way you your self would want to be treated."

as a recent example of religious "moral compass" all one has to do is look at those duggar people...the folks with like 75 kids...deeply religious, anti treating people fair (what was the molesters job? robo calling people saying transgender people should be put to death or something like that. Im not really sure as I dont follow them) and yet, here he is, as it turns out, molesting little girls and performing incest with his sisters. (granted, it was NOT consensual and he was 15 I think..but I knew when I was 15 that touching little girls was wrong)

In fact...one person I invited here was my former pastor Maj Howard Bell

I was born and raised catholic, went to catholic schools etc...but when I grew up and saw the world as a young Marine, I started forming my own opinions. I witnessed things that conflicted with my upbringing...things like suffering, hunger, famine, warfare in gods name, killing of each other because you belonged to a different sect of the same religion...imagine if catholics, baptists and methodists all started killing each other because we couldnt agree if jesus was born on a wednesday, monday or a saturday...

but just because I dont believe in god, doesnt make me a bad man...what makes a bad man a bad man...the man himself...if that dugger kid was in fact touching little girls...god didnt make him do it or not do it...HE made himself do it...

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2015 7:19 AM

2015-11-22T07:19:29-05:00

It is, in fact necessary. Its known as the Euthyphro dilemma.

(1a) morally good acts are willed by god because they are morally good
or
(1b) morally good acts are morally good because they are willed by god.

Then: If (1a) morally good acts are willed by god because they are morally good, then they are morally good independent of god’s will.
or
If (1b) morally good acts are morally good because they are willed by god, then they are morally arbitrary (like gravity or thermodynamics).

So, if someone accepts that god is good, then they can act rightly without god by using the same standards of goodness that god does (moral naturalism). And if someone accepts that god commands us to be good based on his own whim, then the only reasons to be good are fear of punishment or hope of reward (divine command theory).

Either choice leads to a person acting morally good.

Further, in the first case, a person can act rightly while rejecting god simply by acting on the same standards that god does. A person rejecting god in the second case is free to act rightly based on the moral standards of humanity because they will be as arbitrary as god's.

My point is this, regardless whether you think god is the source of moral action or not, one can reasonably be morally good. Its a choice...

While I am usually loathe to allow wikipedia as a source for my students, it will help explain the dilemma better than I can in a paragraph without being to mired in jargon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

Euthyphro dilemma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Euthyphro dilemma is found in Plato's dialogue Euthyphro, in which Socrates asks Euthyphro, "Is the pious (τὸ ὅσιον) loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?" (10a)

Response by SSG William Jones made Feb 23 at 2017 9:30 PM

2017-02-23T21:30:33-05:00

Certainly. But a "good man" without God will surely split Hell wide open!!!