Can you make Soldiers do administrative tasks between battle assemblies without paying them?

2016-02-22T22:07:28-05:00

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2016 10:12 PM

2016-02-22T22:12:26-05:00

They can do a 1380 to get retirement points if he or she has run out of RST's.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2016 10:16 PM

2016-02-22T22:16:17-05:00

Depends on tasks. As leaders we tend to do way more and not get put in for pay for it, it just comes with the job. For junior Soldiers sometimes yes so they can do funny and good training and do the online course at home to have that extra time outside the drill hall with mandatory training or to do their stuff for promotion.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2016 10:18 PM

2016-02-22T22:18:22-05:00

Let me guess

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2016 10:24 PM

2016-02-22T22:24:54-05:00

When soldiers end up staying late to finish these kind of tasks, they will soon learn the value of finding time to do them at home

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Feb 22 at 2016 10:25 PM

2016-02-22T22:25:36-05:00

Ah, the accounting for Reserve time question. Here's how it works. If you wan't a pay billet, you inherently agree to do whatever it takes to get the job done and help move the Command in the right direction. If you do that, you can get another pay billet and maybe a promotion. If you can't do anything other than the drills and 2 weeks, don't be surprised that your next billet is the VTU, hence you won't get any money and paper from VTUs never reads good at the Boards. All my Reserve time was a half time job week in and week out interrupted by periods of more than full time. So if the retirement and other perks are worth it at the end, so be it. A lot of folk forget that doing a day's work on the weekend gets you two days pay and retirement credit. Eases the bite some, but not much.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2016 10:44 PM

2016-02-22T22:44:59-05:00

No, but training and other items can be paid for with ADAs or RMAs.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2016 10:45 PM

2016-02-22T22:45:51-05:00

Can you? Well you can try. Let me know how that works out for you. Ok sarcasm aside..

I've seen a lot of topics on this on how much time in between drills Soldiers have to do stuff on their own time. I'm going to bring up a couple of points here, and I am only basing this from my little corner of the world in the NG. I'm sure this will ruffle some feathers.
A. Traditional M-Day Soldiers that say they have to dedicate so much time in between drills (I've seen some say 40-60 hrs). I call BS. That's more time (on the high end) that I spend working on items for my ENTIRE unit. IMHO seems like some serious Time Management issues on their end or they have lazy Full Time Support Personnel.
B. Time Management Time Management Time Management. Did I say Time Management? That is directed towards drill weekends. For those that say Drill weekends are tied up with mandatory briefs, online training etc, and have no time to do their jobs I ask this what time does your usual time for drill start? 0800 first formation? What time do you get released? 1600? 1700? How many Traditional M-Day Soldiers realize that for 1 day of drill they get 2 days AD pay?
C. Now again from my corner of the world. Every year when we get our YTC/YTG from higher I sit down with my CDR, Tng NCO, and we plan out our WHOLE year on a Comapny YTC. We plug in all the mandatory training that is required along with all of our METL training. We do quite a few overnight drills at our local training site. So guess what? Our day doesn't end at 1600, 1700, or 1800. We take advantage of the time we have when we have the entire unit together. Our days also don't start at 0800 either. Guess what? We accomplish all that is required of us. Soldiers are motivated because they are doing good training. Obviously there is never enough time for training, but we do as much as we can to do our damnedest to make sure we are as close to standards as possible.

Yes this was somewhat of a quasi vent, but I'm pretty tired of hearing all this "I have to dedicate so much time in between drills". Like I'm told when I see a problem, and want to address it I better have A solution to fix it.

Response by LTC Charles T Dalbec made Feb 23 at 2016 12:00 AM

2016-02-23T00:00:15-05:00

You could award Admin points. Just talk to the unit administrator

Response by LTC Charles T Dalbec made Feb 23 at 2016 12:00 AM

2016-02-23T00:00:53-05:00

No pay no work

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made Feb 23 at 2016 12:07 AM

2016-02-23T00:07:29-05:00

I think so sfc, i help my unit 1sg doing paperwork without pay.

Response by CPT David McRaney made Feb 23 at 2016 6:54 AM

2016-02-23T06:54:54-05:00

I have been out for about three years. Technically, no you cant. BUT there are other ways to pay soldiers that go outside of the drill time. Drill time falls under MUTA's. There are two or three other types of orders that can be issued that pay a reserve member for there time. Additionally you could put a soldier on Indevedual Annual Training Orders. It all depends on the task, duration of the mission/assignment, your higher commands allocation of funds. It seemed every year we where authorised a different ammount, but there where hard rules in place for the max of each type of order used. I know my last year in command I maxed all the different types of orders I could get (this assumes you are not activated) to where I worked for free. Sorry I can't remember the other types of orders, got a TBI in my last deployment. I can tell you this, if you had guys doing stuff for free, and every good reserve unit does, if you can find a way to pay them you will be looked at like Santa.

Response by SFC Daniel Faires made Feb 23 at 2016 8:59 AM

2016-02-23T08:59:59-05:00

The real question here is does anyone following this thread understand why a traditional guardsman or reservist gets paid 2 active duty days of pay for one actual day ?

I know the answer I was well versed in it and it's a historical and something congress did for the part time Soldier a very long time ago

I'm not going to post the answer I am wondering if anyone knows the answer

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2016 9:25 AM

2016-02-23T09:25:19-05:00

I know I'm outside my lane but the similarities are clear. We are able to pay in points or with a different pay style. My unit has established a telecommunication policy in which an airman may use up to 4 hours a total of 2x per quarter to perform computer based training. A PT Day (air national guard) is one day's base pay (no additional benefits BAS, BAH) and 1 point to the member. The Group CC must sign off on the member performing duties outside the unit. Keep in mind that this is a privilege and reserved for those who are fast movers. Others drag their feet and they wind up sitting at the PC with someone over their shoulder which makes for a really bad UTA.

PME is something different and that's on the individual as it is a requirement for promotion.

Response by SGT Matt Schiess made Feb 23 at 2016 10:35 AM

2016-02-23T10:35:35-05:00

IMHO, it depends on the soldier. I did that myself with my former unit. I would work night shifts, drive ~2 hours to my armory, help out for 3-4 hours (we were in between training NCOs at the time) and then drive home and grab a nap before heading into work again. I did this for about 8 months before I decided it wasn't safe for me to do anymore, with sleep deprivation becoming a factor.
I did it for free, and I was happy to do it.
Now, I don't say that to toot my own horn, but it's a good example of a soldier wanting to learn more of the process of making a unit tick and doing whatever it takes to get ahead in terms of promotion and schools.
The other side of that is, obviously, things like doing SSDs, GAT survey, etc.
Those, I think, should be paid because that is part of the soldiering process and it is "required reading" to stay in the Army.
Now, the issue with that is funding and keeping track of time spent accomplishing those tasks. I believe that of the Army wants to have its soldiers doing those things, they either need to figure out how to keep track of time spent doing those things, or allocate time to do it at drill.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2016 11:37 AM

2016-02-23T11:37:45-05:00

SFC Wood, on the reserve side, besides SSD, Soldiers can get paid for doing EBDL courses online during their own time. (The pay type for this is "43, code A".) Or have them fill out a 1380 for points only. They might not see the benefits of that, but that's when you have to be leader and mentor explain the ARMY retirement and point system. You have to be flexible using your Soldiers time during BA. Anything that can be done online, I try not to put on my Training Schedule. I try to maximize the BA time to do hands on training or briefings that cannot be done on their own time.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2016 12:48 PM

2016-02-23T12:48:52-05:00

What tasks are we referring to?
- Mandatory online training? In my unit, the internet is horse crap and the computers are worse. I (and many like me) have learned that the path of least resistance, frustration, and wasted time lies in doing this at home, paid or not.
- Evaluation reports, awards, counseling? If you can't figure out how to write these infrequently required items in the time allotted, you need to drink water.
- Leader tasks, such as communicating, planning training, etc? This is a bit thornier. In my experience, the training outline and objectives are best constructed and briefed in the company training meeting, but the details need to be worked out elsewhere. Some of that on unit time (coordinating support and resourcing) some of it on your own (actual training plan, troops to task, time management/crowd control, risk assessment, leader's reconnaissance).

My bottom line is results. If my (or my Soldiers') investment in personal time improves and enhances the readiness of my unit and the quality of it's training, then it is time well-spent. If not, then no. There are ways to compensate Soldiers for their time, such as ATAs, RMAs, and drilling for points.
I am not in favor of them doing work purely for "God and Country".

Response by SFC Kenneth Hunnell made Feb 23 at 2016 7:56 PM

2016-02-23T19:56:48-05:00

You can make them wish they did, I do not remember the military being a Democracy.
Some seem to think the military is like a 9 to 5 job, it is not.
As far as being in the Reserves, they own your Butt from 00:01 on that beginning day until 23:59 on the last day. You can accomplish a lot in that amount of time. To say that you are not doing Military work on your own time is crazy, If you show up at 08:00 and leave at say 17:00, that is a nine hour day. Take that times 2, that equates to 18 hours, what happened to the other 30 hours in which you were being paid. You was not working for your pay, you was doing personal task.

If you gave 2 hours a day working on your Military task for say 15 days you would come even.
Never kick a gift horse in the mouth

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2016 8:51 PM

2016-02-23T20:51:32-05:00

We cannot make soldiers perform duty for no compensation. However, you can offer a retirement point for any admin duty performed outside of drill.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2016 2:06 AM

2016-02-24T02:06:14-05:00

Only if you want to make that soldier or soldiers not want to come to drill.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2016 11:45 PM

2016-03-26T23:45:45-04:00

It is dependent on the task, more information please.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2016 6:56 PM

2016-10-13T18:56:01-04:00

Make? The answer is a flat NO. If the requestor is on duty when they asked and you are not, but you do it anyway, then they (not you) have just committed a Class E felony as a violation of the Anti-Deficiency Act. Specifically, the GAO regards it is a coercive deficiency and an inappropriate augmentation of an appropriation. HOWEVER, there are 2 exceptions. 1) If you agreed to perform free services, in writing and in advance, that on-duty person/agency may accept them. 2) They may accept free services if property or life is in imminent danger.

Caveat: Retirement points are considered compensation for services, on a voluntary basis only. Also, Commanders CAN order you to do courses on the EBDL list FOR PAY. That said, consider everything people have said here and weigh your alternatives accordingly. Maybe your leadership can work out something fair. On another note, my motto is "let it break." If it can't get done with what you have, then let it break so it can (eventually) get fixed - that's why its illegal - an inappropriate augmentation of an appropriation. Congress can't fix what doesn't appear to be broken thanks to all the free stuff you do.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/1342

31 U.S. Code § 1342 - Limitation on voluntary services

An officer or employee of the United States Government or of the District of Columbia government may not accept voluntary services for either government or employ personal services exceeding that authorized by law except for emergencies involving the safety of human life or the protection of property. This section does not apply to a corporation getting amounts to make loans (except paid incapital amounts) without legal liability of the United...