Can your command make you clean someone’s house?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Oct 2022 18:36:53 -0400

So a buddy of mine is watching another troops home & dog while he’s in the field and the troops wife is gone. The first day he goes over to let the dog out he find that the house is disgusting, dog feces everywhere, trash all over the place just generally nasty. So my buddy tells his NCO that he doesn’t know what to do because he doesn’t want to go back to that house. Well his platoon leadership for rear d says that everybody is going to go over to this guys house and clean it. There’s no way you can be forced to go clean someone else house right?

Response by 1SG Steven Imerman made Oct 4 at 2022 6:40 PM

1SG Steven Imerman — Tue, 04 Oct 2022 18:40:34 -0400

Why would you not want to support a unit comrade in a tight spot? Would you want the same support if the roles were reversed? "Taking care of our own" is more than just a nice phrase.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2022 6:59 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Oct 2022 18:59:17 -0400

This serves a couple of purposes.

1) It helps a fellow member of the platoon. Whether this is on base or off base, forming ranks and cleaning the shit up will keep that SM from getting into deeper shit with whatever level of powers that be for housing.....Base Housing or Landlord. Either way, it'll help that SM in the long run.
2) It will get Leadership to have eyes on the direct problem at hand. This will not only help higher level of leadership have eyes on the situation to help provide assistance to the SM, but it will also show Leadership that the SMs FLL has failed in their duties. In fact, this will show the Leadership where all the failures have taken place.

Response by COL Randall C. made Oct 4 at 2022 7:10 PM

COL Randall C. — Tue, 04 Oct 2022 19:10:20 -0400

First and foremost, A superior’s order is presumed to be lawful and is disobeyed at the subordinate’s peril. Always keep that in mind.

Can your command "force" you to go clean someone's house? probably not. I seriously doubt someone is going to haul you physically over to the house and handcuff a mop to you.

Will you get into 'trouble' for not doing it - likely (probably every crap job coming to the Rear D's desk goes your way or other imaginative stuff...)

Are you disobeying a lawful order (i.e., UCMJ Article 92 stuff)? Yes, if it was put that way (instead of "Hey, who wants to go to Snuffy's house and help a buddy out?!").

Will you get into 'legal trouble' for not doing it - probably, but it's a gray area. Gray area because the order is not illegal, immoral or unethical (the usual trifecta for disobeying an order).

When they offer NJP to you and you go to a Court Martial because you refuse it, you can discuss strategy with your defense counsel while in pre-trial confinement. He'll likely try to argue that there isn't a valid military purpose.

However, the prosecutor will likely argue that it does have one because it is part and parcel of "promote the morale, discipline, and usefulness of unit members and directly with the maintenance of good order in the armed forces". You can roll your dice if you feel so strongly about it.

Does the order seem unfair? Absolutely. So does, "Snuffy, you take your mask off first to see if the nerve agent has dissipated..."

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Oct 4 at 2022 7:38 PM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Tue, 04 Oct 2022 19:38:00 -0400

Is it a lawful order punishable under the UCMJ? No.

Is it the right thing to do to help a fellow member of the unit? Absolutely.

The guy in need will be in debt to you all but it’s the right thing to do. Plus if the Command gets flagged because this guys situation becomes common knowledge and it’s learned that you all did nothing to assist or intervene it will cause a lot of static for you. Feel free to push back but it’s not worth all the trouble and it seems like a lot of effort to avoid helping a Unit member

Response by SFC Marc W. made Oct 4 at 2022 8:29 PM

SFC Marc W. — Tue, 04 Oct 2022 20:29:09 -0400

He's going to be gone in the field for what 2 weeks, maybe 3? From the sounds of it, this house has been in disarray for months.

It is not ethical or moral to volun-tell people to go clean a grown man and woman's house. And since even base housing is privatized, I'd say that at best it's getting chalk on their feet of the legal line. Essentially what they're doing is forcing soldiers to provide a free house cleaning service to this member who chose to live like a slob. Or if you want to view it another way, they're forcing the government to pay for a house cleaning service of a lazy SM.

The guy is only in the field, he's not deployed. The house can stay nasty, and his leadership with their new found knowledge of his living habits can take the appropriate action to fix this soldier upon return to garrison.

It would be a completely different story if the leadership had said: 'hey, this soldier's house is a shit-show, who wants to go help him out while he's gone?' That's an opportunity for people to "take care of their buddy" as others have suggested.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Oct 4 at 2022 9:00 PM

CSM Charles Hayden — Tue, 04 Oct 2022 21:00:32 -0400

Something smells! Unless there is a “teaching moment and a learning component”, I would sure drag my heels.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Oct 4 at 2022 11:00 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Tue, 04 Oct 2022 23:00:59 -0400

I think other posters covered the order aspect. Now let’s look at alternatives to depending on the unit to watch a dog. There are people that volunteer to look after pets of service members. Recommend this person is counseled to pursue an alternative that is a more viable care plan.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2022 11:58 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 Oct 2022 11:58:41 -0400

No - they cannot order you to clean someone's private residence. In fact, no one else can legally go in that house unless the homeowner gives them permission to do so whether it's off post or on base housing as that's privatized housing.

However - if the home is in a state that is dangerous for people to live in, that needs to get reported up. I know one time the BN CSM talked to all the NCOs about checking on people and when you have a bad feeling about a soldier, tell someone. I guess someone's NCO went to their on base home to check on them and the soldier wouldn't let them in (another NCO) which they didn't have to but through the door, his supervisor could see what looked like poop on the walls. So he reported it and they went through all the legal channels to be able to go in and inspect - and apparently the house was a disgusting mess. Shit on the walls, dirty diapers, trash, etc. So obviously a kid lived there too. It was apparently one of the worst things CSM had seen.

So there are ways for leadership to legally go into someone's private home when it's a safety and welfare issue but it takes going through legal to start with.

I absolutely would not go clean someone's house if it was in the state you say it's in. I'm not risking my health over someone who can't take care of their own home. If it's in that state and he's married...then both of them need to also probably go to BH because there are some issues going on.

Your leadership needs to look into it more but no, it's not a lawful order to illegally enter someone's home. I'd tell them I'm not doing it and then go talk to legal if they push it.

For all those "you wouldn't help a buddy out" who said they are friends? Not everyone in a section, platoon, unit are friends with each other. My house isn't immaculate but I sure as hell don't live in filth and never would.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Oct 5 at 2022 1:28 PM

GySgt Kenneth Pepper — Wed, 05 Oct 2022 13:28:37 -0400

This is a tough one. If I were the HMFIC I would contact the Housing folks and seek guidance from them. As most housing is privatized, this is probably not within the scope of his command's authority.
Now, if his buddies gave a damn about him they would have already fixed it without involving his command.
Hind sight is 20/20 and there are likely details that are missing to this saga. Repeat offender???
So, if the order still stands, ask your buddy if he is willing to withstand the shit storm of refusing to comply. If so, he must be willing to be held accountable. It is not unethical to expect SMs to help a teammate out when they are in need.
Or just go clean up the dog shit and drink all of his liquor and beer.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2022 2:26 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 Oct 2022 14:26:52 -0400

The bigger problem to look out for is the nature of the mess, and how high the mess gets exposed to.

Right now it's a platoon level problem executing a platoon level reaction.

The higher the problem is observed at the various levels of the chain of command the higher and broader the response is going to have to be uniformly applied.

If the commanding COL or CSM got wind of this they have to cover their tracks across their entire subordinate units and soldiers. Health and Wellness Brigade wide by end of week. Have Fun.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2022 2:25 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Oct 2022 14:25:08 -0400

It should never have been an order. Another situation of the order giving NCO/PO having a "failure to realize" or my abbreviation an "FTR".

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Oct 7 at 2022 7:00 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Fri, 07 Oct 2022 07:00:25 -0400

Everything is stated. The most relevant is what it will do for both the Soldier and his spouse. Health and welfare check by the command is authorized as the soldier gave you access, and you did the right thing by reporting what you found. The most relevant is that it helps the Family in the long run, yes at first there is the nasty mess, and embarrassment in the form of anger from the couple. In the end it helps all around. If this guy let you in, he thinks that state of living is ok. Likely raised that way this is much deeper than it appears.

I had this happen in three of my units with similar circumstance, usually involving children as well. Yes my Soldiers cleaned with appropriate gear, yes it was embarrassing and drought with a tough period for all involved. In the end it was better for the Soldier, family and the units.

Response by SSG Laurie Mullen made Oct 10 at 2022 11:28 AM

SSG Laurie Mullen — Mon, 10 Oct 2022 11:28:12 -0400

What about the family's right to privacy? I understand, and agree, with wanting our troops to live in a clean house, but a civilian also lives there. I disagree with going into the soldier's home with a bunch of people to clean and invade his/her privacy. I know how bad things can get because I grew up with a slob of a mother. After my father died when I was a teenager three of us kids took over the cleaning, the fourth did not. When us three left and the fourth stayed behind it became a hoarder house. I have to disagree with taking other people into a house to clean it without one permission and without one of the family members there.

Response by MSgt Joseph Haynes made Nov 10 at 2022 5:29 PM

MSgt Joseph Haynes — Thu, 10 Nov 2022 17:29:52 -0500

As a SrNCO, I would not order anyone to clean this man's private residence. For everyone saying this beneficial to morale and well functioning, you're going to risk morale going to shit to benefit one person?
If this slob lived in the barracks, 1st Sgt would be there to enforce the cleanliness of quarters. This is a family's private home, you can't just send a gaggle of soldiers/Airmen there against his knowledge. He gave consent for 1 person to enter his home, not the unit.

Response by PO2 Ronnie Chandler made Nov 10 at 2022 9:40 PM

PO2 Ronnie Chandler — Thu, 10 Nov 2022 21:40:15 -0500

It's probably more we're a team and gonna help out teammate out rather than order. Either way unless your not planning on retiring you'd be better off doing it. It's kind of like cutting grass with scissors not right, but we do it

Response by SFC Jose Trabal-Vega made Nov 11 at 2022 11:49 AM

SFC Jose Trabal-Vega — Fri, 11 Nov 2022 11:49:25 -0500

My 1SG had my whole company form up in front of the BN CDRs house, because the CDR needed help getting his 70in tv out of his house to get it repaired (back in 2006, this sucker was huge). I stayed outside, and the 1sg, said, get your ass inside and help, and I said, that's the 2nd abuse of power order I got today, unless you want me to go to the IG, I'll stay here and supervise; 1sg walked away.
Those are not your quarters, they cannot make you clean them. They can tell you where the formation is, but they cannot make you clean, that would be unethical.

Response by MSgt Allen Chandler made Nov 13 at 2022 10:18 AM

MSgt Allen Chandler — Sun, 13 Nov 2022 10:18:12 -0500

Can they force you. As someone once said maybe they can’t force you but they can make you sorry you didn’t comply. Let’s take three scenarios. You say no and they bring you up on a charges and now you before somebody about the UC MJ. My guess is that you’ll win is it unlawful order. Scenario number two you tell your NCO you don’t wanna go and he says something like F#@#$ You and then tells the rest of The people go do the cleanup after that you’re ostracized no one will work with you no one will talk to you no one trust you. Did you win? Third scenario you tell the NCO no and then for the next month or more you seem to be getting a lot of extra details and a lot of extra special duties and your efficiency report at the end of the year doesn’t look that good. This one has two questions did you win? Can the NCO do that?
So here’s my point you signed up you said you’d be part of the team and here’s a test of that commitment. A lawful order Be in dress uniform and ready for inspection at 0800 tomorrow. An unlawful order get your gun and go downtown and rob a bank and bring me some money. In between there’s a lot of gray area and no one can tell you for sure what’s right and wrong but I can tell you that in most cases you should give your commander the Benefit of the doubt and pride yourself on being a team member.

Response by CMSgt Lloyd French made Nov 14 at 2022 12:47 PM

CMSgt Lloyd French — Mon, 14 Nov 2022 12:47:16 -0500

I suggest you analyze this a little deeper. Imagine yourself in the boots of the other troop...you come home from deployment and find your usually-nasty house is spic-n-span, and you know your wife didn't do it because she's gone, too. While that is sifting through your brain, you come back to the unit and find out that a half-dozen of your "buddies" went in there and gave it a GI party because it was so disgusting. Think of the embarrassment! Sometimes you have to create a significant and memorable emotional "event" to change people--hopefully for the better--let's hope this does.

Response by SSG Gregg Mourizen made Nov 14 at 2022 4:30 PM

SSG Gregg Mourizen — Mon, 14 Nov 2022 16:30:24 -0500

My only real issue with this situation, is when the SM returns and start making accusations of theft.
I understand the many reasons why this might be done.

However, one must realize the liability, this type of action might create.
Imagine, the Pandora's box of problems you open up, should you find contraband, or worse.

If it has to be done, document, document document, and for God's sake, take before and after pictures of everything.

Response by MSgt Michael Madden made Nov 15 at 2022 2:28 PM

MSgt Michael Madden — Tue, 15 Nov 2022 14:28:04 -0500

When you joined the military your option of choosing to make decisions are over. Failure to follow a lawful order can get you sent to the brig.

Response by Cpl Craig Howard made Nov 15 at 2022 4:28 PM

Cpl Craig Howard — Tue, 15 Nov 2022 16:28:11 -0500

Force? Most likely not. Get some "Volunteers" together, more likely. If I had a buddy that was having issues like this and everyone was gone, then by all means pitch in. The last thing they need to do is come back to a house that is unlivable and that has more than likely attracted bugs or vermin. Clean it to a point. Doing a bit of laundry helps, but you don't need to fold it and put it away. Wash the dishes and clean the kitchen. Ensure the Bathroom is sanitary. Close off areas that the dog may be going to that it should not. Bear in mind, they do not want to feel violated when they return.

Response by PO2 Jimmie Shelnutt made Nov 15 at 2022 5:03 PM

PO2 Jimmie Shelnutt — Tue, 15 Nov 2022 17:03:14 -0500

My very first work detail in the Navy was the cleaning of a senior officer's horse stable and barn. I was awaiting orders prior to attending Hospital Corps School. I've always believed shoveling that horse excrement prepared me well for some of folks I later took orders from.

Response by PO3 Dale Olson made Nov 17 at 2022 11:36 AM

PO3 Dale Olson — Thu, 17 Nov 2022 11:36:35 -0500

Not only but no F'ing way. I would take an article 15 first.

Response by CPO David R. D. made Nov 18 at 2022 3:59 PM

CPO David R. D. — Fri, 18 Nov 2022 15:59:26 -0500

Being a Sailor, I had to look up what "Rear D" means. In the Navy, it would be similar to "Beach Det". The group of Sailors that stay back, for a variety of reasons, while the ship is away from homeport, whether it's a week-long underway or a deployment.

As for cleaning another Soldier's, Sailor's, Airman's, or Marine's home, I personally believe that's crossing the line of abusing authority. Hold the service member accountable, but it's okay to help him and his family get things in order, so make it voluntary. Then when the service member get's home, have the "hard talk" with him. If no volunteers, I would clean it personally, and I know my family would help. However; I would never order my Sailors to go and provide "service" to another Sailor.

Response by TSgt Michael Brandt made Nov 19 at 2022 11:18 AM

TSgt Michael Brandt — Sat, 19 Nov 2022 11:18:58 -0500

OK first off I’m old-school strategic air command Air Force. In SAC we always said if you take care of your people then the mission will succeed.
The one thing here that I’m not seeing is compassion for your fellow service members and why I say that is one of the things about being depressed or dealing with PTSD or any kind of a mental health issues is a huge hurdle for service members we all know that we don’t want to admit it because of the culture inside the military or out.
Being unkept whether it’s the person or they’re home or both we should be gladly helping out when we can. Reporting and helping clean up the area is job one not only are we bringing attention from higher up we are also showing support to our brother or sister in arms that they are not alone.

Response by SSgt Eric Owens made Nov 19 at 2022 8:20 PM

SSgt Eric Owens — Sat, 19 Nov 2022 20:20:38 -0500

Well there's lawful orders then there's abuse of authority for personal gain which is exactly what ordering an active duty person to clean your house would be. This would be an abuse of authority. Our active duty members were the uniform of the Armed Forces for the sole purpose of national defense and all enemies foreign and domestic. NOT to clean someone's personal property. That's what civilian cleaning services are for. The cause and responsibility of such abusive conduct starts at the top at the White House and the Pentagon. Get rid of all the woke, weak, snowflake leadership and replace them with real men and real leaders. Then and only then will we have the military we once had. My opinions are my own. They do not reflect that of any other individual or organization and I will NOT apologize for anything.

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made Dec 19 at 2022 6:30 AM

SSG Shawn Mcfadden — Mon, 19 Dec 2022 06:30:39 -0500

Well, the PL gave an order. I do want to ask was the house on base of off base?

Response by SGT Joseph Dutton made Dec 19 at 2022 8:50 PM

SGT Joseph Dutton — Mon, 19 Dec 2022 20:50:47 -0500

If it is off post housing and not supported by the military, then no. It could be considered as invasion of privacy even though you was asked to do Dog Setting. The commander that you report to should contact the Local Health Department / Landlord to make the report. If on post housing or military supported housing then must be report it to the Post/Base Housing Section. A command cannot order anyone or a crew to clean ones house. There was an similar event at FT. Sill Oklahoma and the wife filled a Lawsuit against the command for invasion of privacy because the house was in town. Before we knew it, they was transferred out to another post/base out of state.

Response by SSG Dave Johnston made Dec 21 at 2022 1:37 AM

SSG Dave Johnston — Wed, 21 Dec 2022 01:37:53 -0500

I want to hear the follow up... What did command do in regard to the soldier, his spouse, and the dog??? dog not house broke, quarters uninhabitable particularly due to the dog and no "care plan" regarding the dog if deployed... and a husband and wife with no housekeeping skills,

Or was the whole thing staged by the soldier to get out of the field exercise??? Hummm?

Response by SSG William Zopff III made Dec 23 at 2022 8:24 AM

SSG William Zopff III — Fri, 23 Dec 2022 08:24:06 -0500

In the Army, we are usually a team, some units are more like family; except for newer members and/or individuals. While these newer members/individuals will eventually become more like family; initially they don’t get or understand what the leadership is about. Helping out a team member is something that you just do! Even maybe when it seems that they don’t deserve the help (a mess of their owb making); but remember, it just seems that they don’t. We all need a helping hand from time to time; as we don’t know or understand the dynamics in another persons life. You need to change your prospective from it being a lawful order to an official request to help another person. This change of perspective will help build your character and view of life in general. Think about it this way; its not about you!

Response by SFC Dr. Jesus Garcia-Arce, Psy.D made Dec 24 at 2022 7:06 PM

SFC Dr. Jesus Garcia-Arce, Psy.D — Sat, 24 Dec 2022 19:06:41 -0500

Nope, not his house and and someone house, usually using this to offer rank promotions.

Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made Dec 25 at 2022 12:34 AM

Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis — Sun, 25 Dec 2022 00:34:13 -0500

No, you cannot be "forced" to do this. You do this because "we take care of our own."

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Jan 22 at 2023 8:52 PM

1SG James Kelly — Sun, 22 Jan 2023 20:52:21 -0500

No; but what the 1SG can make you clean is a whole nouther matter.

Response by MSgt J D McKee made Jan 24 at 2023 6:25 PM

MSgt J D McKee — Tue, 24 Jan 2023 18:25:52 -0500

If you like someone enough to do them the major favor of doing the above, why would you then go and rat them out to their boss and the senior leadership?
Or, did someone pressure your buddy to do it in the first place and this was his way of getting out of shit duty? Because you can bet your ass nobody in their right mind will ever ask him to do that again if they know he involved the leadership in a personal matter.

Think of this as valuable military training, in that it is very instructive in the area of refusing engagement with a superior force when you don't believe you can win, IE, determining what hill you wish to die on. Because, yes, you will pay the price if you refuse, very likely.

I can't even be against the leadership on this. The nasty homeowner is gonna hear from everyone he works with for months and maybe years what shit the place was, and how they had to clean it up. His wife is gonna give him shit, too, probably, because her home was invaded by strangers in her absence and housekeeping by both parties was implicitly criticized. So, he will likely.....nah, he will likely continue to live in shit because some people just do.

It's on duty, right? So you aren't being penalized, there is no mass punishment involved, it's just different duty. Cleaning a house is so much less onerous and dangerous than clearing a minefield or sorting bodies for shipment it doesn't even qualify for consideration in the same arena, never mind actually fighting.

If it was to clean a house for someone higher ranking just because they wanted their house cleaned, THAT would be immoral and probably illegal.

I don't see this as a punishment for you and the other people who may have to clean the house, but it sure is one for the guy who lives there, and one of the responsibilities of a commander is to ensure decent housing.

Response by Sgt Ed Bowers made Jan 25 at 2023 9:54 AM

Sgt Ed Bowers — Wed, 25 Jan 2023 09:54:47 -0500

That should not happen! But if the group agrees to do it, if asked not ordered, then it'd most likely be alright.

Response by Capt Hermes Rosa made Jan 27 at 2023 7:55 AM

Capt Hermes Rosa — Fri, 27 Jan 2023 07:55:50 -0500

I do not know whether it is legal or not, however: the more appropriate thing to do would have been to as for volunteers to clean up the house. It seems like the trooper whose house was a mess, need some sort of help, which the NCO wanted to render. Just as an aside, I was assigned the task to carry the baggage of foreign VIP by my NCO. I did not like it but I did it.

Response by SSG Keith Brevard made Jan 27 at 2023 3:15 PM

SSG Keith Brevard — Fri, 27 Jan 2023 15:15:00 -0500

That is what’s considered an unlawful order.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2023 12:26 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 30 Jan 2023 00:26:23 -0500

Not the call I would make, but this seems more like a "shipmates helping shipmates" thing than personal servitude. My guess is, legal but ill-advised.

Response by CWO4 Carter Owens made Jan 30 at 2023 8:47 AM

CWO4 Carter Owens — Mon, 30 Jan 2023 08:47:34 -0500

Forced? Nahhhhhh. Not with today's Leadership. How about the NCO's get together and have a Feild Day party at the Troops house. Then just forget about it. Never to be discussed again.

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made Jan 8 at 2024 4:22 PM

SSG Robert Perrotto — Mon, 08 Jan 2024 16:22:29 -0500

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