Combat Pistol: Marines vs Army: Comparison?

2015-05-14T19:33:57-04:00

I was looking at both the Army and Marine method of combat pistol. To be quite frank I think the Marines have a better handle on this. What so you think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sU17hG4zZvw

Marines Shooting the Combat Pistol Program Course of Fire

Marines shooting the Combat Pistol Program course of fire aboard Marine Corps Air Station Cherry Point. Video by Cpl. Hector de Jesus | Marine Corps Air Stat...

Response by GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad made May 14 at 2015 8:02 PM

2015-05-14T20:02:31-04:00

Marines (of course)! How could you have possibly thought otherwise? :-)

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2015 8:17 PM

2015-05-14T20:17:20-04:00

Army uses pop up targets of varying distances. I do like the cool hand thing though, kind of like a gunslinger lol GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad I got expert too ;-)

Response by SFC William Farrell made May 14 at 2015 8:41 PM

2015-05-14T20:41:54-04:00

And the Army is much better at close range combat and when the pistol fails, it's hand to hand Major Ballinger!

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made May 14 at 2015 8:51 PM

2015-05-14T20:51:34-04:00

Can someone explain the tactical benefit of the head swivel after shooting? I was at a range in Afghanistan where some SF guys were qualifying on their pistols and they didn't do it. I've also never seen any Soldier do it at any range I've been to. I've seen some of my LEA friends do it however. What is the point of it?

Response by SSG Gerhard S. made May 14 at 2015 9:33 PM

2015-05-14T21:33:58-04:00

The bullet comes out of the same end of the gun.
Aim matters, the rest is just along for the ride so long as the bullet hits it's target.

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made May 14 at 2015 10:41 PM

2015-05-14T22:41:40-04:00

Is this the Army version?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ-fwzn2wuE

U.S. Army Small Arms Championship Service Pistol EIC

This video is an instructional video for Soldiers who want to participate in the U.S. Army Small Arms Championship. This video highlights the Service Pistol ...

Response by SSG Adam Wyatt made May 15 at 2015 12:29 AM

2015-05-15T00:29:53-04:00

That is the most ridiculous course of fire I have ever seen. Creating disastrous bad habits. The NRA would approve of this technique.

Response by 1LT A. Uribe made May 15 at 2015 1:37 AM

2015-05-15T01:37:32-04:00

As a federal agent I can tell you that based on this video their technique is just not the best. For example sticking both hand out and drawing the weapon all the way out when you can just shoot from the hip. In addition they seem to just look left and right before holstering their weapon, this is intended for the firer to watch his six, not just his left and right. Lastly, when they holster their weapon they need to do it without looking at their holster, one would not be able to see in the dark. Just some pointers.

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made May 15 at 2015 8:03 PM

2015-05-15T20:03:55-04:00

Well i can't say army is better nor marine, each branch drill sergeant have they own way to teach the individual.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2015 3:57 PM

2015-05-18T15:57:50-04:00

Looking at the video of the Marines I see a lot of poor technique that is not being corrected by the instructors. Poor stance with several Marines with their body off balance. Their presentation of the weapon should go from weapon retention position straight out to full extension. Most of them were not doing this and their presentation was very slow. This may have been by design if they were beginners but if not they should be presenting much faster. The left and right scan, if they are going to do it, is from L.E. And is supposed to be done as follows:
Follow initial threat to the ground to ensure it is no longer a threat. Go to low ready and take finger off trigger, scan to left and right for additional threats. Then decock and scan over each shoulder from compressed ready gun or position SUL. Perform a tactical reload if necessary. Not everyone does it the same way. Some skip the 360 scan. Some don't teach position SUL. The purpose was to break the habit of firing and immed. re-holstering before scanning for additional threats. When I would conduct pistol training I would make sure the officers were scanning and not just moving their head without actually looking for a threat. Could go on but these Marines were not MARSOC / Raiders but air wing Marines.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made May 22 at 2015 8:39 AM

2015-05-22T08:39:29-04:00

The average Marine shooter and the average Marine shooting program is superior to that of the average in the Army. (Note that comparing special skills of special guys is different than averages) I'll leave the rest of the fighting to all the internet tough guys already going at it.

Response by Cpl Daniel Welle made May 22 at 2015 8:49 AM

2015-05-22T08:49:44-04:00

Ok Gents. The course of fire looks fine. Getting shots off quick and accurately is a good thing. I have read some comments here and agree with some. If you are close enough to your target that you have to hold your hands up in a combat stance, odds are that you wouldn't want to take a full shooting stance and you would want to shoot from the hip. Practicing shooting from the hip is huge and has saved my bacon. That being said, I know they are teaching familiarity with the draw and quick transition for when things go bad. Muscle memory is key. Tac reloads before re-holstering
Is something else they may want to look at.

Should they be 'Checking their six' before re-holstering, sure they could add that little step.

Last thing I would suggest, shoot don't shoot targets. One of the better things my Department has done over the last few years is to work on combat shooting vs. range shooting. Moving through a shoot house and having rage targets that have unarmed and armed combatants lead to good habits/decision making. USMC 92-96 current LASD Gang Detective. Semper Fi Devil Dogs.

Response by SGT Terry Ryan made May 22 at 2015 10:16 AM

2015-05-22T10:16:18-04:00

I don't belive you can say one service program is better than the other (pride in branch aside) both the Army and Marine pistol programs are pretty much they same, teaching basic pistol marksmanship and stances. I feel it really boils down to the individual.
If the person shooting practices frequently and has good basic shooting skills than it don't matter. Like someone else already said it's about putting rounds down range frequently not just twice a year for Qual.
Also I feel the military could gain a lot if they adopted more of the civilian
IDPA type of shooting.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made May 22 at 2015 11:07 AM

2015-05-22T11:07:20-04:00

As soon as you said 'Combat Pistol' everything that followed seemed a bit foggy. If you are in combat and going to your pistol...well I am praying for you already.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2015 11:50 AM

2015-05-29T11:50:41-04:00

If you're using your pistol, something has already gone wrong. Very few units teach how to use your pistol, and what it really is good for. Buying you time until you can get your rifle back in the fight.

Response by SFC Boots Attaway made May 31 at 2015 5:07 PM

2015-05-31T17:07:56-04:00

Myself I prefer the 1911 45ACP and I practice shooting both one and two handed. When you can get kill shots at 100 yards one handed then you are proficient with the pistol. Also you should be able to get your initial shot off one handed from the hip or you could end up dead because sometimes you do NOT have time to take up the proper stance (whatever that is).

Response by SSG John Erny made Jun 4 at 2015 10:58 AM

2015-06-04T10:58:39-04:00

Have any of ever been to an Actual Army competition shoot? The GEN Patton shoot for the Pistol is a very difficult unless you are an avid pistol shooter. The body armor drill is also quite a feat. 2 rounds to the body and 1 to the face and it is timed.

Response by Cpl Bill Johnson made Jun 9 at 2017 11:41 AM

2017-06-09T11:41:41-04:00

Of course .

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 28 at 2017 9:23 PM

2017-07-28T21:23:53-04:00

I was on ammo duty as an E-4 on the pistol range. I watched officers and senior NCOS suck at it all day. After the CO bolo'd 5 times i went out there and shot a perfect score for him.

Response by PO1 Eric Booker made Jul 29 at 2017 12:02 AM

2017-07-29T00:02:31-04:00

I've shot with both the AMU and the MMU at matches all over the country. There is no "best" on the whole. Individually, each will have good and poor shooters. Go pull up the results from the national match program at Camp Perry(which is happening right now) and you'll see that they're usually pretty comparable. From year to year one may have a couple of "hot shots" BUT...the AMU is a full time billet so long as you keep your scores up whereas the MMU is a 2-3 year rotation regardless so you can't just "squat" and shoot matches all year long as a career.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2017 7:35 AM

2017-07-29T07:35:12-04:00

So far, I only know how to shoot the State Dept. way, as a Marine Security Guard. I'll be doing my first Marine Corps pistol qual when I go back to the fleet; until then, I can't say who does it better.

Response by COL Jeff Williams made Jul 29 at 2017 9:46 AM

2017-07-29T09:46:35-04:00

I think both are fine. Unless someone can suggest a way to track combat statistics that take into account every single individual engagement with a pistol or rifle and its outcome

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2017 12:12 PM

2017-07-29T12:12:18-04:00

Shake your dicks, this pissing contest is over.
But seriously, I can't believe the emotional investment in these comments. As if we actually care what someone else thinks.

Response by SSG Will Phillips made Jul 30 at 2017 10:16 PM

2017-07-30T22:16:02-04:00

This appears to be a range qualifier instead of a tactical close quarters combat drill with a handgun. I do not understand why the Weaver stance is still taught as this is not the most stable firing platform. I did notice a lot of bad habits the shooters displayed when presenting their weapon i.e. "bowling & casting" the weapon, and the very poor draw speeds. As someone stated earlier and was correct, the quicker you come out of the holster in a gunfight, you have that instant more to acquire a reasonable sight picture before pressing the trigger.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2017 4:50 AM

2017-07-31T04:50:47-04:00

I have served in both as an enlisted Marine and an Army officer. I would have to say that Marines on the average are better marksman due to the higher degree of training they receive. This is something I have been trying to fix in the Army at least at my level with the Soldiers in my unit.

Response by SSgt Jimmy Jackson made Jul 31 at 2017 9:33 PM

2017-07-31T21:33:46-04:00

If you walk away.... Good form.

Response by PO2 Skip Kirkwood made Nov 23 at 2017 10:37 AM

2017-11-23T10:37:06-05:00

WHAT is with the re-holstering drill? If you're in a firefight and have been shooting pistol, you re-holster to do something else (and not necessary to have a cup of coffee). Re-holstering should be completed after executing a tactical reload, WITHOUT looking at the pistol or the holster! Eyes up and on potential hazards!

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2017 5:59 AM

2017-12-15T05:59:26-05:00

Although not perfect, this is a lot better then what we, the Marines, had prior to the CPP. Changing from a bullseye target to a body simulated target was a great improvement.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Dec 15 at 2017 9:16 AM

2017-12-15T09:16:27-05:00

OK, two questions. Why is the first shooter placing his firing hand over the slide at the end of the drill and why are they dropping the mag and then putting it back in? Are they putting the gun on safe with their firing hand?
Other than that, I taught my wife to shoot this way.
Yes, I agree, the situational awareness drill is probably overblown.

Response by SPC Tommy Faircloth made Dec 15 at 2017 1:00 PM

2017-12-15T13:00:41-05:00

Based off this video, the marines do not have it. I almost had a fucking stroke watching how bad their habits are. First, why are they all turning their pistol to the side to drop the magazine? Way to flag anyone that’s next to you. Second, what’s up with that shitty racking the slide with two fingers technique? Not only is that impractical but it is ineffective. Instead of going under the whole gun, grab the grooves from the top.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2017 8:04 PM

2017-12-15T20:04:36-05:00

Navy?

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2017 10:34 PM

2017-12-15T22:34:25-05:00

Hahahahaha..... hahahahaha..... ummm oh yeah hahahahaha. Air wingers, fhey carry pistols, they have to qual, but wow. Get a grunt unit in there, like FAST, or RECON or SOC or the BIRF, these guys are on the training wheels program, crawl phase. They will get to run eventually, but not really a good example of combat pistol. The one closest to the camera would be dead before he even got the safety off in a real fight.

Response by PO3 Troy Avery made Dec 16 at 2017 12:42 AM

2017-12-16T00:42:28-05:00

An individual thing!

Response by SgtMaj Anthony Goss made Dec 16 at 2017 1:06 AM

2017-12-16T01:06:09-05:00

If you have any questions about either one, get in front of them and find the answer! Semper Fi!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 16 at 2017 8:51 AM

2017-12-16T08:51:50-05:00

Ive had several marines try the Army marksmanship qualification none were expert several didnt even qual. Different styles.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 16 at 2017 6:01 PM

2017-12-16T18:01:15-05:00

When I look for shooting with pistols specifically, I do NOT look to the military to be league leaders in courses of fire. Everyone has good shooters but the programs are terrible.

Response by TSgt Steve Wheeler made Dec 16 at 2017 11:08 PM

2017-12-16T23:08:58-05:00

Somebody better sharpen their military history. I will take USAF personnel any day of the week.

Response by SPC Robert Cooper made Dec 16 at 2017 11:37 PM

2017-12-16T23:37:03-05:00

Not a branch. Individuals have talents that have nothing to do with branch. I have many brothers from all branches. Frankly I've seen many vets that rock on the range and many that can't shoot to the poi t of being scary. Fact and not biased.

Response by SFC Ron Culver made Dec 17 at 2017 12:27 AM

2017-12-17T00:27:25-05:00

Maksmanship training. Not what I would call combat or tactical training.

Response by Pvt Robert L. Lamoreaux made Dec 17 at 2017 1:46 AM

2017-12-17T01:46:44-05:00

I recall seeing dash cam video of two state police officers in a shoot-out with two armed "suspects". If I recall, over 50 or 60 rounds total were fired, the combatants being within 15 FEET of each other! No one was hit! My uninformed opinion is that the guy best able to control the adrenaline dump when things start to fly is most likely to survive. Sure. "Technique" is important, but I suspect mere "technique" isn't enough.

Response by SSG Jeff Gerfen made Dec 17 at 2017 9:57 AM

2017-12-17T09:57:48-05:00

I and went to the Peace Officer Academy with a couple of Marines and sorry to say but their shooting skills weren’t exactly what I thought they should be. One Marine FTQ’d (failed to qualify) and had to reshoot...Just saying

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 17 at 2017 4:10 PM

2017-12-17T16:10:03-05:00

The same federal agents that shoot themselves in the legs at airports?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 17 at 2017 9:20 PM

2017-12-17T21:20:33-05:00

This is like asking which elementary school arithmetic quiz for first graders has the best handle on mathematics.

Response by CPL Robert Nelson made Dec 17 at 2017 11:00 PM

2017-12-17T23:00:03-05:00

Nobody with m 9 pos

Response by SGT Mathew Husen made Dec 18 at 2017 10:37 AM

2017-12-18T10:37:29-05:00

I found that the M9 makes a good hammer.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Dec 18 at 2017 10:58 AM

2017-12-18T10:58:54-05:00

I shot competition pistol for the 82nd Abn and XVIII ABC. My bottom line is the style doesn't matter, putting down the targeted POS quick and surviving is all the matters.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Dec 18 at 2017 1:18 PM

2017-12-18T13:18:02-05:00

i don't know what that hand waving stuff prior to shooting is about, doesn't seem like anything I've ever seen anyone do on a firing range. Also loading magazines at the firing line doesn't impress Me, they should already be loaded by You before anyone steps up to the line. Not everything You shoot at is the same distance either, different distances from the target seems more in line. The wand waving ? again, signaling what You are going to do prior to shooting ? that in My opinion is NOT a good habit to get into and what You practice on the range should be what You do in combat. Seems also keeping the weapon pointed downrange always for safety is important. I have qualified Expert in both the Military ranges and also the civilian with all sorts of handguns, semi auto, revolvers. The Civilian fire included also multiple targets to draw from the holster on. The Dept I served on qualified often to include even night fire. The same thing held true for USAF Air/Security Police. (now Security Forces). In both the civilian and military setting, the targets were not always at the same distance during the course of fire and didn't include the hand waving in either place. What exactly is the point of that ? checking to see if You finger are nibble or warning a enemy or suspect Your going to draw and fire before You do and give Him an advantage. I'll bet His only wave will be bye after He shot You !

Response by PO3 Cameron Zero made Dec 18 at 2017 1:37 PM

2017-12-18T13:37:53-05:00

Nah, It's obviously all those fake operator bros, that's why they grow beards and talk about guns so much, because they are the only experts, just ask them.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 18 at 2017 5:00 PM

2017-12-18T17:00:12-05:00

All I know is: don't drink a cup of coffee and down an extra strength 5-hour energy shot right before you qual. Unless you want the extra challenge anyway.

Response by SSG Kenneth Thomas made Dec 18 at 2017 5:33 PM

2017-12-18T17:33:23-05:00

Having served in both branches I can say unequivocally without a doubt. Marines are better marksman.

Response by Cpl Jonathan Hoskins made Dec 18 at 2017 7:02 PM

2017-12-18T19:02:31-05:00

That’s all well and good until you look down range and see the middle blown out with marine targets. The army targets end up like rat shit in a dresser drawer. Funny how the person bringing this up is an army lt.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 18 at 2017 8:05 PM

2017-12-18T20:05:22-05:00

Coast Guard here. Yeah yeah, I know; who the hell is the Coast Guard, etc. I've shot with both Army and Marines that have come over to the dark side. The marines far outperform most of their Army counterparts.

Response by SFC George Cleaveland made Dec 18 at 2017 10:16 PM

2017-12-18T22:16:36-05:00

As a shooting Instructor and as an ex Fed., Army wins in response course of fire where the targets are always unknown until they present themselves.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2017 12:28 PM

2017-12-19T12:28:28-05:00

Navy got it.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2017 12:37 PM

2017-12-19T12:37:42-05:00

This is probably the wrist possible video of a Marine pistol range you could find. The Marine Corps overall has a better handle on marksmanship, just as we have since our inception 242 years ago.

Response by SPC Chip Quinteros made Dec 19 at 2017 2:21 PM

2017-12-19T14:21:33-05:00

The phrase "combat pistol" makes me cringe.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2017 2:57 PM

2017-12-19T14:57:47-05:00

Unless you are an MP, I find time spent on combat pistol training would be better spent on nearly any other skill applicable to your actual job.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2017 3:12 PM

2017-12-19T15:12:36-05:00

What's the purpose of the "hands waving" prior to shooting?

Response by Cpl Armando Mireles made Dec 19 at 2017 9:19 PM

2017-12-19T21:19:32-05:00

Marines

Response by MSgt Tobie Matherne made Dec 19 at 2017 9:32 PM

2017-12-19T21:32:24-05:00

ARMY Lt and Marine PFC in an arguement over weapons and tactics. Give me a bag of popcorn this is about even.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2017 10:00 PM

2017-12-19T22:00:42-05:00

So, I’m not arguing who’s actually better. But you should know that we have been using Blackhawk holsters for qualifying for 6+ years and we no longer wear desert cammies unless you eat sand all day.

So, this video is old. What is there to compare?

Response by Maj Thomas Blankenhorn made Dec 20 at 2017 12:25 AM

2017-12-20T00:25:20-05:00

Air Force got it!!

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2018 4:12 PM

2018-01-02T16:12:29-05:00

Honestly, I'd rather carry an extra couple primary weapon mags than a pistol.

Response by CPL Chris Palmberg made Jan 19 at 2018 9:16 PM

2018-01-19T21:16:38-05:00

So, one of the really cool things about spending a long time as a medic is that there are plenty of opportunities to do things that a "normal" troop wouldn't get to do. My first M-9 range was at the National Guard range with the armor battalion I'd just been assigned to. It was an orientation range to the M-9, as the unit had just gotten them. That afternoon, the Kansas City USMCR staff sections came to do THEIR orientation on the M-9.

Long story short, I managed to sweet talk/BS my way into getting fire both orientation courses on the same day. Comparing them head-to-head, I have to say that the Corps program was a lot more comprehensive and I felt much more comfortable after the Corps' course.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2018 2:02 PM

2018-01-20T14:02:07-05:00

I like the headgear for the safeties, being all day out there that the best protection. Also they are not wearing full battle gear, not every time we get attack are we wearing everything.

Response by CPT Scott Sharon made Jan 27 at 2018 7:19 PM

2018-01-27T19:19:16-05:00

I only did the Army training so I have no way of knowing which is best.

Response by MGySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2018 1:03 AM

2018-01-30T01:03:09-05:00

I can't comment to the effectiveness of the Army program, but the Marine Corps combat shooting program is pretty decent. Some of the comments mentioned questions the hands up...this is a hand-to-hand scenario where firearm use is warranted. This is not our primary firearm so this needs to be understood. These techniques are also used to provide secondary options when a tactical reload for your primary weapon isn't an option. This video shows the techniques applied without the background context of the mindset behind the methodology. You can open source search the program for more details: http://www.trngcmd.marines.mil/Units/Northeast/Weapons-Training-Battalion/Marksmanship-Program-Management-Section/Combat-Pistol-Program/

Training Command Units Northeast Weapons Training Battalion Marksmanship Program Management...

Combat Pistol Program

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made Feb 18 at 2018 7:48 PM

2018-02-18T19:48:42-05:00

I learned how to really shoot a pistol.... AFTER I left the service...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2018 8:41 AM

2018-02-28T08:41:17-05:00

Go ARMY!!!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2019 11:03 AM

2019-07-31T11:03:08-04:00

Better question, when did the army get medical corpsman

Response by MAJ Steve Daugherty made Jul 31 at 2019 10:59 PM

2019-07-31T22:59:50-04:00

Marksmanship while important isn't the same as combat pistol training, movement,cover,changing targets and target acquisition are key components of that type of training

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2019 11:05 PM

2019-07-31T23:05:41-04:00

Pistols are good as a backup, for MPs and OODs in garrison. Never spent much time training with the pistol aside from Embassy Duty.

Response by SSgt Scott Reynolds made Aug 22 at 2019 1:00 PM

2019-08-22T13:00:28-04:00

You lost me at shooting from the hip. That’s just stupid at the cyclic rate. Unless you’re an MP chances are you’ll never draw from the holster in a combat situation. So..... your criticism is sophomoric at best.

Response by CPL Joseph Elinger made Aug 23 at 2019 7:06 PM

2019-08-23T19:06:38-04:00

The pistol is a last ditch weapon, when the enemy had gotten to close for rifle.
Better to:
1) Not be seen,
or
2) Have cover & distance.
* Reconnaissance & behind lines, & Black ops, of course being the exceptions.

Response by SSG Gregg Mourizen made Aug 27 at 2019 12:38 AM

2019-08-27T00:38:28-04:00

The video showed a pretty basic class. I'm sure even the marines will agree that more range time is always needed. With that said, both branches have more advanced classes. It all really depends on the program and the instructors. The best marksmanship class I ever had was after 22 years of service, and I had been through several courses and training programs. I have trained with all four branches (5, if you count the coasties augmenting in with the navy), each has it areas, where they excel.
If you want to say, the basic course for one might be better than the others, then I have to say, the only ones qualified, are the ones who have been through both programs.
I have seen members of both Army and Marines that can either hot dead on, or miss the whole side of the barn.
The one thing I like about the training shown in the video, was the emphasis on a proper draw. I have seen enough idiots, military or otherwise, who accidentally shot himself or his buddy while drawing.
What I do know is that everyone has room for improvement, no matter who is giving the course.

Response by SPC Ron Salsbury made Sep 2 at 2019 2:03 AM

2019-09-02T02:03:38-04:00

Regardless of your branch, and technique you have been taught, without practice and experience, both can talk smack all you want as to who is the best, but it comes down to the individual and familiarity of their weapon. If you want the real combat challenge, quit shooting with your dominate hand all the time and learn to shoot with your non-dominate hand as well; you may find yourself not being able to shoot with your good hand, and have to use the not so good one instead. This explains why I voted with the 9% group that Nobody got it!!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2019 9:30 PM

2019-09-02T21:30:15-04:00

Other than a virtual pissing contest, I'm not quite enlightened enough to see anything other than individuals expressing their personal opinions - I guess I'm wondering about the purpose of this discussion at all. In my opinion, regardless of branch range practice will never equal combat experience - "O's" are like "A'S" right? Everyone's got one...

Response by MSG Danny Mathers made Sep 3 at 2019 4:46 PM

2019-09-03T16:46:17-04:00

Pistols are back-up weapons period! Unless all you do is shoot all the time.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2019 8:13 PM

2019-09-04T20:13:21-04:00

Response by CSM Thomas Ray made Sep 29 at 2019 9:09 AM

2019-09-29T09:09:41-04:00

Combat pistol is learning the basics: front site focus, grip, learning to shoot in different positions and non dominant hand. The shooting is not based on services but the amount of time you spend on shooting. I was a weapons instructor at one time, and the one thing that stands out is the time spend on weapons qualifications.

Response by SSG Kenneth Isaac made Oct 15 at 2019 1:38 AM

2019-10-15T01:38:18-04:00

As long as you are aiming center mass and remember your fundamentals, put that SOB on his azz regardless of service. I do think the instructors teach MP's more pistol techniques, but I think it's that way across the board.

Response by SSG Kenneth Isaac made Oct 15 at 2019 1:48 AM

2019-10-15T01:48:47-04:00

It also comes down to unit training. Many of the stateside MP units, especially SRT and K9 trained with local law enforcement. We had a great working/training relationship with San Antonio Police department/SWAT.

Response by CAPT Jim Murphy made Oct 15 at 2019 1:33 PM

2019-10-15T13:33:14-04:00

Navy

Response by SPC Andrew Fox made Oct 15 at 2019 5:09 PM

2019-10-15T17:09:27-04:00

There’s never a right way of doing it. Mostly agreed way. By some of the pictures you don’t need to have your arms extended and locked. Best guy to learn from is Jerry Miculek.

Response by SFC Dana Gaffin made Oct 15 at 2019 9:41 PM

2019-10-15T21:41:18-04:00

If you’re down to your pistol, i would look for a new, different advantage... Hand to hand combat is what i would be hoping for!

Response by SFC Michael Peterson made Oct 15 at 2019 11:58 PM

2019-10-15T23:58:53-04:00

As a US Army (Retired]) Infantryman, with a license to carry in the state of Texas, I say "neither". Here's why. All this footage was of the Marines and, while they might have been better than the Army, they were still not as good as most civilians with "combat pistol shooting" training. That whole hand to hand combat stance prior to draw is 100% crap. I guarantee that, with my hands down by my side, from concealed carry, with an IWB holster, I could outshoot 95% of those Marines, who could probably outshoot 95% of the Army shooters. Then again, I probably practice with my weapon more than they do. After all, my only mission is protecting my family now.

Response by MAJ Mark Kottka made Oct 17 at 2019 3:28 PM

2019-10-17T15:28:27-04:00

Always room for improvement.

Response by Sgt Charles Welling made Oct 18 at 2019 10:22 AM

2019-10-18T10:22:42-04:00

Better handle? Don't know, but, I do know the Marines have been studying how to make shooting in combat more accurate/effective.

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made Oct 18 at 2019 2:45 PM

2019-10-18T14:45:58-04:00

Come on now. The Beretta M9 has been in use for more than 30 plus years. Time both the military services got a ndw pistol as well as rifles. Through out WWI to the GWOT, the main side arm and rifle were the same. Every boby wants their own choice. Different calibers for different weapons drive the defense budget up and down. Same weapons for every service.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Oct 19 at 2019 5:10 AM

2019-10-19T05:10:12-04:00

The MP corps in the Army conducts Law Enforcement Weapons Training and Qualification (LEWTAQ) which is either all pistol or a combination of the M4 and the pistol. I can’t speak for the rest of the Army. We don’t do the usual stand and shoot the target void of any special techniques. All I can say it’s fun, and I enjoyed it. Shooting side ways close to the side of the torso is part of the qualification. Who does that in their personal training time? Part of the training is also to simulate magazine changes on the fly and shoot with the opposite dominant hand to simulate an injury. I’m sure both branches has it’s good and bad points.

Response by CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana made Oct 20 at 2019 2:13 AM

2019-10-20T02:13:54-04:00

Pistol in battle is only a quick remedy that might delay the inevitable, enough for the shooter to dawn an M16 or a sniper rifle and engage the target properly. Otherwise, we all pray for he who thinks the M9 or baretta will deter the onslaught of the enemy on the battlefield.

Response by SSG James Mielke made Oct 26 at 2019 10:07 PM

2019-10-26T22:07:58-04:00

Retired Army and I can say that the Army does not training enough with individual weapons.
Especially with the nature of warfare we engage in today the Army really needs to take a more marine approach to its weapon training; every soldier needs to be a rifleman and every rifleman should be carrying and proficient with a sidearm as well.

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Nov 12 at 2019 10:19 AM

2019-11-12T10:19:51-05:00

It would be of my opinion that if your main combat weapon is a hand gun, Hope you filled out your will. Now so far I have seen this discussion go all over the place and it has been here since May 2015. The 9mm side arm is a close range quick defense weapon not a standard combat weapon. From my experience over a life time with weapons the best way to shoot is what makes you comfortable and accurate not some ones style they want to impress everyone with. The video shown here shows people in and unnatural position preparing to shoot a target. I have never had the time when I needed a side arm to shoot with to stand at a ready by the time you get through I have already shot 2 rounds in the target. Try to shoot a rabbit the way the video shows (if you find one). JMTs

Response by Jennifer Lee (Doerflinger) Hill made Nov 17 at 2019 9:57 PM

2019-11-17T21:57:56-05:00

I was taught to shoot as a teenager by my father, a Marine on Iwo Jima. At that time, they taught point yr finger shooting. I'm sure there was a proper name for it, but that's how he explained it to me.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2019 7:38 PM

2019-11-18T19:38:07-05:00

Depends on the units ttps .. you know the standardized stuff never reaches the lowest levels.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2019 12:27 AM

2019-11-19T00:27:00-05:00

The soldier second from right is using the classic weapon held horizontal and head turned to the rear technique. Must be from Chicago.

Response by Sgt Mark F Jindrick made Nov 19 at 2019 5:10 PM

2019-11-19T17:10:59-05:00

Believe it was Louis Auerbuck that said the pistol is for fighting your way to a rifle.

Response by SSgt Phil Sutherland made Nov 20 at 2019 8:36 PM

2019-11-20T20:36:24-05:00

As a combat Marine in Vietnam, I carried a .45 Cal automatic. We often experienced enemy that was hopped up and the M-16 did not have stopping power. But, when hit with the .45 it stopped them cold with great knockdown power. It wasn't the most accurate weapon. But, you couldn't beat it at close range.

Response by PO1 Mike Meehan made Nov 22 at 2019 9:41 PM

2019-11-22T21:41:06-05:00

I think they could both learn from putting in some time at an IPSC or IDPA match.

Response by CPT Douglas Wiencek made Nov 23 at 2019 8:32 AM

2019-11-23T08:32:47-05:00

If you're resorting to your pistol in a combat situation, your position has already been overrun. Just call in that final air strike or artillery strike and keep shooting till you can't shoot any more!

Response by CPL Chris Palmberg made Nov 25 at 2019 9:01 AM

2019-11-25T09:01:31-05:00

I find I'm in what I'd presume is a unique situation. On the first day I trained with the M9, I was assigned to a Guard tank battalion, and was given the additional task of supporting an element from HHC 1/24 Marines. So I literally went thru both the Army & Marine Corps orientation course within 4 hours of each other (because as any good medic will tell you, the only advantage of covering a range is that it is a rare situation where the NCOs running a range don't let "Doc" shoot too, whether it's a -203 or my buddy who got to light up some 55 gallon drums with a Ma Deuce from a Chinook doing aerial gunnery.)
I found the Army's course to be very basic, and exactly what is was... a range. In other words, stand on this line and shoot X rounds at this target. Conversely, the Corps orientation incorporated more tangible skills, such as mag changes, multiple targets, and more than one stance (since the bad guy rarely maintains a full body silhouette while waiting for the good guy to assume a proper stance.)
Fast forward a few years, and I found that the focus on more than marksmanship to be invaluable, both in Q ranges on active duty, and when I was taking long walks on the oceanless beach.

Response by SGT Richard Gocio made Jan 25 at 2020 9:11 AM

2020-01-25T09:11:53-05:00

Did miss the link to the "Ahhrrrmmmeee Trrraining Sir!" To quote Bill Murray in STRIPES. Because one video of poorly done Marine "Combat Pistol" training does not answer the question.
I, as an ARMY Engineer, was required to be qualified on the ARMY issue M1911 45. What I saw in this video was no more than the basic qualification on a side arm. As an Ops-Intell NCO and Courier, I became "qualified" in Combat Pistol, which is familiarized in an early version of what is now called a Kill House, it was made of tires filled with sand. Standing still, emptying your rounds in one target, checking your left and right, works for MP/SP. It does not qualify as Combat Pistol. And for the naysayers, in the early eighties we didn't have all the short barrel SMGs and ARs, it was M16 or 45, and I for one would much rather use the 45 indoors, or in a crowded area, than the standard issue M-16.

Response by 1SG Brian Adams made Feb 14 at 2021 11:37 AM

2021-02-14T11:37:53-05:00

Impossible to declare...both elite

Response by Cpl Bill Johnson made Aug 6 at 2021 6:17 AM

2021-08-06T06:17:30-04:00

The only comment I can make is that isaw the YouTube video of when the 101st abn got their new sigs. Lord have mercy. It was bad. I have been a police firearms instructor for 24 years, and what I saw was awful.