Commander denies Pentecostal chaplain’s religious accommodation request. Should a chaplain be discharged for expressing his faith?

2015-06-10T10:57:50-04:00

"The commander of Naval Nuclear Power Training Command has denied a religious accommodation request by a Pentecostal chaplain who was removed from his post for allegedly making inappropriate comments to sailors and being ‘intolerant’ of those who don’t share his religious views."

http://www.stripes.com/news/us/commander-denies-pentecostal-chaplain-s-religious-accommodation-request-1.335290

Commander denies Pentecostal chaplain’s religious accommodation request

The commander of Naval Nuclear Power Training Command has denied a religious accommodation request by a Pentecostal chaplain who was removed from his post for allegedly making inappropriate comments to sailors and being “intolerant” of those who don’t share his religious views.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Mar 10 at 2015 7:24 PM

2015-03-10T19:24:10-04:00

My thoughts are that if you are ministering to others outside of your faith you need to be a bit tolerant. I go back to MAJ (CH) Schneider who did provided pastoral care my MI BN but he kept it light. If memory serves me he was Lutheran and was Roman Catholic but he did not pass judgment on anyone who made comments to him during their talks with him. I had the utmost respect for him of any Army Chaplain I met because he was just one of the guys. He had a way of putting his religious convictions to the side when counseling people.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Mar 10 at 2015 7:32 PM

2015-03-10T19:32:04-04:00

From the article:

"On multiple occasions he discriminated against students who were of different faiths and backgrounds"

That pretty much answers that.

The article's title is misleading. He wasn't kicked out for his beliefs. He was removed for discrimination, which will not be tolerated by any service-member regardless of their position of authority. If the SgtMaj discriminated against someone because of their religion, or any other protected class status... what would happen?

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 1:57 AM

2015-03-11T01:57:04-04:00

If you can't minister within the environment then you have no place in the environment. The military has changed. If your belief system no longer mirrors those same beliefs or no longer fit within that of the current military, then it's time for you to go. I applaud his desire to stand tall and defend his principles, however if those principles conflict with the new military standards, then it's time to move to the civilian sector.

Response by SSG Kenneth Lanning made Mar 11 at 2015 5:20 PM

2015-03-11T17:20:41-04:00

This could be difficult for any chaplain, regardless of faith. The faction they follow will always dictate a certain stance on multiple subjects, but it takes a very politically-inclined individual to be able to put aside their personal beliefs in order to minister to the masses...something that most religions do not condone. I would never want to know what an individual would have to personally go through in order to do this, but those that do decide to serve our nation have to realize that they serve ALL faiths within our nation-not just the one that they follow. I personally do not think he should be negatively charged for his actions simply because of the fact that he is operating according to his faith; however, he should be relieved from the military if he cannot bring himself to follow the standards of conduct.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 5:58 PM

2015-03-11T17:58:59-04:00

That story is a dirty rotten shame, CH (MAJ) Private RallyPoint Member. I also believe the chaplain was set up by his assistant, who is likely an activist and was on a mission to discredit the chaplain, so he peppered the chaplain with controversial questions about controversial topics. The chaplain likely answered honestly - from the perspective of his faith - and that was his "downfall." It's ironic that these supposedly tolerant people are so terribly intolerant.

I appreciated this line from the story: "Modder said many Americans may be shocked to discover how much military culture has changed over the past few years." Amen, Chaplain, amen!

Response by CSM David Heidke made Jun 10 at 2015 11:02 AM

2015-06-10T11:02:44-04:00

Being a Chaplain is different than being a regular preacher. You need to practice according to the regulations of the Chaplain Corps.

Yes, he needs to be discharged.

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made Jun 10 at 2015 11:33 AM

2015-06-10T11:33:34-04:00

Why do these people always try to divide people up and not bring them together?

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Jun 10 at 2015 11:36 AM

2015-06-10T11:36:03-04:00

Unfortunately preaching one's beliefs does not fall under a religious accommodation. A chaplain does have a base faith but unless speaking to an audience of or privately with members of that faith, they have to be nondenominational in their dealings with the general military public. The wearing of headdress and beards for Sikhs or a break for Muslims to pray in the middle of a shift/watch are example of accommodations.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Jun 10 at 2015 11:46 AM

2015-06-10T11:46:36-04:00

OK I'll light the fuse. Always tough to draw a conclusion on one article. However, if true, then he isn't a good fit for the Chaplain Corps. Prospective Chaplains must agree to serve all members regardless of faith and not hammer on specific tenants of their denomination. They have to be inclusive and not exclusive. If they can't abide by staying away from some things they'd deal with in town, then they can't be a chaplain. A good chaplain would merely say his denomination believes this is a sin that will have to be personally addressed with God, and we're all God's children so how can I help you? If the member wishes to seek another chaplain, then a referral to a denomination that isn't hung up on that is appropriate.

We see the potential for internal conflict all the time. The other thing is when the chips are down, any chaplain should be eager to give solace to any member regardless of religion.

Bottom line, the Chaplain had it backwards. He doesn't need an accommodation. The service needed an accommodation from him.

Response by CMSgt Mark Schubert made Jun 10 at 2015 12:20 PM

2015-06-10T12:20:23-04:00

I agree that we MUST be tolerant of all people - after all, this is the model of Jesus. If anyone could have walked the earth and TOLD US we were guilty, He could have - but he never leveraged guilt - always kindness. We should do the same. Is it easy? No.

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made Jun 10 at 2015 12:24 PM

2015-06-10T12:24:52-04:00

What do we expect if a leader is either unable, or unwilling, to execute their duties? That's right: They should be relieved. This isn't an issue of religion or tolerance. It's an issue of a subordinate staff officer that can't do his job.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jun 10 at 2015 2:29 PM

2015-06-10T14:29:48-04:00

"If" the examples listed are true, the Chaplain crossed a line.

The Chaplain is in an awkward position, because he does answer to both his Faith and to Regulations, however the examples listed are outside the bounds of "professional conduct."

Don't get me wrong. I like Chaplains. Chaplains are an amazing resource, and having them available is a benefit for the military organization. However, we have to separate the personal from the professional.

If the example statements were made by any other officer, what would the repercussions be? If they were made in a civilian work environment, what would the repercussions be?

Chaplains should absolutely be allowed to discuss Faith. But, based solely on the examples, what occurred was beyond "discussion" and would fall under "verbal abuse" in any other setting.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Jun 10 at 2015 2:58 PM

2015-06-10T14:58:46-04:00

This one seems to be a clean kill and the right call. If he wants to teach that. Great. Go be a Pentecostal Preacher outside of the Navy. If you want to be a Chaplain in the Navy (or the Air Force or Army) you have to follow some additional rules to follow which he clearly broke.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2015 2:59 PM

2015-06-10T14:59:03-04:00

It sounds like he was trying to operate outside of what is expected of a Chaplain. You are there to support the spiritual welfare of those in the unit you are assigned too. You are not there to insult or to guilt others that are not in compliance of your faith. He might be a better Preacher at a church than a Chaplain. So many think that they can just say whatever they want as long as they claim freedom of religion. It doesn't work that way in the military. Now he will find out.

Response by CH (MAJ) William Beaver made Jun 10 at 2015 3:10 PM

2015-06-10T15:10:34-04:00

The word 'allegedly' tells me there is more to the story. The spin is the religioun. But as they used to say on 'The X-Files,' "the truth is out there-somewhere."

Response by CH (CPT) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2015 3:47 PM

2015-06-10T15:47:25-04:00

I always cringe when someone sends me links to an article like this one. Usually it's something like, "Look at this, Corey, they're just persecuting these Chaplains. It's going to get harder for you to stand for your faith in this context."

I hear that, and it may be partially true, but sometimes chaplains bring these issues on themselves. Context is crucial. In a service, where the folks attending are there voluntarily, you are (almost) completely free. (I'm sure I can think of some things which you just couldn't say). In counseling, you're also very free, but it's simply best practice to gain permission to speak freely and teach what you think the Bible (or other sacred text) teaches. In a mandatory context like a change of command ceremony or memorial service, you simply have to be more tactful. No, you don't have to be something you're not, but you can't exactly tell people to "repent and believe, for the Kingdom is at hand."

I'm a chaplain and a conservative Baptist one to boot. I understand where these guys come from, and I probably agree with many of the theological positions of most of the chaplains who are getting in trouble. But I just don't see the wisdom, practically or ministerially, of being abrasively confrontational. For a chaplain, a career lost is an opportunity lost. Who knows how many lives you could impact if you handle yourself carefully, tactfully, and above all prayerfully.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2015 4:46 PM

2015-06-10T16:46:30-04:00

He wasn't simply "expressing his faith." He was wielding it like a baseball bat!

Response by SGT Anthony Rossi made Jun 10 at 2015 6:08 PM

2015-06-10T18:08:12-04:00

The article doesn't establish the setting in which these remarks were made. If he was asked what he believed and then stated it clearly I have nothing but respect for the man.
However, if he deliberately went out of his way to be confrontational that's a different situation.
Was he set up, or did he simply volunteer information that wasn't requested. Were his statements made durring a otepared service, or were they simply in the open air. As a pastor one must know their audience and how he may best help them. Yet if you ask a Chaplin what he believes he should have unlimited freedom to express his views!

Response by CH (CPT) Heather Davis made Jun 10 at 2015 7:15 PM

2015-06-10T19:15:54-04:00

Drawing from a paradigm of inclusion and equality, it is vital that the Chaplain is a servant of society, and reflects the spiritual Soldier's needs and societal core values or has a high risk of being labeled an anachronism. The recent changes in our Army due to the vast diversity it is vital for Chaplains to have deep reflective listening and a genuine desire to respect to the diversity in our ranks. The un-ethical circumstance of alleged communicated religious disrespect creates an environment of escalation of conflict impacting broken relationships and creating a toxic environment due to different lenses and incapable of process multiple worldviews. The mission and vision for the Chaplain Corps are to make deep and meaningful relationships and promote understanding and mediate conflicts and reconcile broken relationships and advise leadership by using self-restraint and compassion for all.

Response by SGT Anthony Rossi made Jun 11 at 2015 1:18 AM

2015-06-11T01:18:19-04:00

We need men and women of:
Understanding,
Longsuffering,
Patience,
Compassion,
Love for each other,
But in this confusing world we need most of all men and women with true genuine convictions!!!!

But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: -Ephesians 4:15

Response by PO1 John Miller made Jun 11 at 2015 1:19 AM

2015-06-11T01:19:15-04:00

Absolutely. A Chaplain is supposed to give spiritual counseling without prejudice and regardless of faith.

Also, you think a Chaplain of all people would be familiar with this little ditty: "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

Response by SSG John Jensen made Jun 11 at 2015 1:26 AM

2015-06-11T01:26:38-04:00

if he can't be chaplain for everybody in the unit, then he is not qualified to be a chaplain in the unt

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Jun 11 at 2015 9:47 AM

2015-06-11T09:47:53-04:00

I say if he was going up to them and giving his unwanted convictions then okay. All the Chaplin I have met were not this way. You go to the office and ask there advice then they shoot their belief the that is why they are there. If YOU don't believe in what he has to say then politely get up, say thank you and leave! According to the bible it IS wrong to lay with an animal, and a person of the same sex (have sex with) and also to have PRE-MARITAL sex or fornicate. I am tired of having to bend to the the I don't like it crowd. Don't like it. Don't listen. When did your rights over power the rights I have. When did my rights over power yours. They haven't THEY are the same. Freedom of religion simply means that each of us has the right to partake or not to in what ever religion we choose. NOT the fact that YOU don't LIKE what I am doing so lets BAN it!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 11 at 2015 10:19 AM

2015-06-11T10:19:36-04:00

It's being said here that "going to the Chaplain is voluntary" and attending services or counseling with a Chaplain is a voluntary association. Technically, that is true, but what you can't always guarantee is that there will be a unit or base Chaplain that represents the faith you were brought up in. This guy sounds like one of the hellfire-and-brimstone Evangelical types, which is fine for others who share that flavor of Christianity. But people brought up in, and used to, the more "Hippie-Christian" ministries of universal, non-judgmental love where gays are accepted and unwed mothers are just given help instead of scorn, going to him may be something of a shock.

I've met Chaplains who were female, and some faiths absolutely do not recognize the validity of a female faith leader. The Episcopalians will ordain gays, the Catholics will not. Many Protestant churches like to have their priests & ministers married and with thriving families; others want Priests single. And then we get into the tangled mess of the only Chaplain in the unit or on base being a regular Christian Chaplain, but he has people coming to him who are Buddhists, Pagans, Jews, or whatnot because he's the only game in town.

These Chaplains need to know that they are supposed to help *everyone*-- they are there for the soldiers' sake, not their own comfort. If this guy can't grow up and help *soldiers*, then he needs to go.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jun 11 at 2015 9:14 PM

2015-06-11T21:14:33-04:00

If one's religious book says their god reigned down hell fire on a two towns for homosexuality, they might want to hold off telling that story until they are out of ear shot of the "intolerant". I don't discriminate against gays, but that's what part of the old testament contains. I wouldn't want to offend anyone by repeating what is contained in the bible, but I rarely speak of theological subjects for even as a historical account or to enlighten myself on other beliefs, there is always the one individual who will be severely offended. I just leave God out of work unless I am with a chaplain.

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Jun 12 at 2015 8:05 PM

2015-06-12T20:05:21-04:00

The Chaplain ignored the Navy regs, was insensitive and discriminated against students of other religious. His "slut shaming" of a pregnant sailor and his spoken views on gays and conversion therapy are at best disturbing. Given the fact that gays can serve openly in the military, his biased views discriminated against a whole class of sailors.

I am sure that this commander's actions went through a legal review prior to any action taking place. This chaplain should have tempered his actions and thought before he spoke.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2015 12:47 AM

2015-06-13T00:47:26-04:00

I was once a student at NNPTC, and this guy's predecessor was awesome. He's an ass. Bravo to you, though, for wording it in such a way that made it seem I tolerant of him rather than a reflection of his own intolerance of others. Well played.

Response by Sgt Ramon Nacanaynay made Jun 14 at 2015 10:51 AM

2015-06-14T10:51:46-04:00

Maybe accommodations should be tested and we should see where it goes as long as it doesn't turn into bullying, intimidation or oppression.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2015 9:40 AM

2015-06-19T09:40:14-04:00

So from what I'm understanding here, this man is being denied a religious accommodation for something he allegedly said for which there's no proof, while some jerk off from BFE is being allowed into ROTC with a beard and long hair? Can someone help me confirm or deny this? Pardon me for sounding a little outraged, but if this is the case, could you blame me?

Response by SPC George Rudenko made Jul 13 at 2015 4:32 AM

2015-07-13T04:32:01-04:00

Chaplain signed a contract with the government to perform certain duties. That would be the crux of UCMJ argument, There is not 1st ammendment issue because of said contract.

Response by COL Robert Davies made Mar 31 at 2017 9:54 PM

2017-03-31T21:54:12-04:00

Without knowing all the details and facts I would probably agree with the commander. A chaplain requesting religious accommodations? The only accommodation I can think of is to have time to worship other than 1100 Sunday. The dead give-away is his intolerance of others' faith. He sounds like he should be civilianized.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made May 13 at 2020 2:16 PM

2020-05-13T14:16:44-04:00

This is very similar to another post that was regarding relaxed grooming standards due to religion.
My opinion on both is that if one CHOOSES to enter into military service they must accept the full terms of that agreement. There is no draft in effect to my knowledge.
There is a very slippery slope that exists within the military at present. Men and women should know before joining that the rules are the rules. If you can't live with that, find another way to serve or choose another profession. If you convert to a religion that doesn't allow you to cut your hair or tolerate sexuality choice after joining you have some hard choices to make.
I interviewed a young man for a position at my company about a year ago that told me how he was going to help reinvent the position he was applying for. A sign of the times I guess.