Common Courtesy?

MSG Martinis Butler — Wed, 25 Dec 2013 08:19:48 -0500

You enter a building to find two NCO's arguing because one NCO is making another NCO's soldier do corrective training. To end the argument the other Sgt says "next time, you should get with me before implementing any corrective training, that's my soldier". Did that NCO need to be informed first or at all?

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Dec 25 at 2013 8:28 AM

1SG Steven Stankovich — Wed, 25 Dec 2013 08:28:51 -0500

If it was a case of making an on-the-spot correction then I would say no need to immediately inform the Soldiers first line supervisor...follow up with the supervisor as soon as you can. If it was a safety issue, then I would also say no also, but with a follow up with the supervisor is also required. If it was something that occurred that did not involve life, limb or loss of eye sight, and had the other NCO actually take the time to come up with and implement corrective training, then I believe that professional courtesy would dictate informing his/her supervisor for corrective training. Just my thoughts.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 25 at 2013 2:15 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Dec 2013 14:15:19 -0500

It is courtesy for an NCO to inform another NCO of ay corrective actions taken on the others soldiers. The NCOdoes need to be informed so that he or she is aware of the whereabouts of his subordinate is and what they are doing so as not to causeeven more problems for the troops. Corrective actions or training shouing the corrective ttraining should be given only by someone in the direct chain of command if the NCO giving the training is a junior NCO then he must notif the Senior NCO in the chain as to the training and why it was given. Where a it is a courtesy for the Senior NCO to let the junior NCO of the training so that the junior NCO dos not think that the soldier is not just ignoring his regular duties.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 26 at 2013 1:12 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 26 Dec 2013 01:12:40 -0500

I would expect NCOs to act like NCOs. That being said general military authority allows for any leader to make corrections, as NCOs it is our duty to train and instruct,so corrective training falls within our pervue. Professional courtesy is informing the Soldiers coc, not leaving a deficiency uncorrected. I expect my Soldiers to do what's right and if they don't I expect leaders to scuff them up, retrain them, and send them back to me. I have my Soldiers backs, but I also have my fellow NCOs backs, if the Soldier is wrong he's wrong if the NCO is wrong I will discuss it with him/her in a manner that does not undermine their authority ( ie. Not in front of other Soldiers). In the end right or wrong every event can be used to teach and instruct, NCOs don't be to high and mighty they may be under your direct supervision but they are far from "your Soldiers", especially when it comes to corrections and training, NCOs must rely on each other to mold Soldiers into future leaders, and let's face it none of us can be e everywhere our Soldiers are all the time.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 26 at 2013 1:34 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 26 Dec 2013 01:34:40 -0500

I agree with the on-the-spot correction being necessary. Sustaining good discipline and order. Then of course making sure his direct supervisor/NCO is aware of what happened.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 26 at 2013 2:12 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 26 Dec 2013 02:12:45 -0500

SFC Butler, that in essence, is one of the things I think is wrong with our system now. It used to be in basic training, that when one DS hemmed you up...they all did. That was the "Village" way. Nowadays, that "it takes a Village" power has been taken away. We're not supporting one another as we should. Who's to say that other NCO would've applied any correction training or actions whatsoever? How is it at that level other NCOs need permission to correct "a US Army Soldier"?? So next time, another CSM/SGM/SFC/1SG saids anything to me, correctively, should that be my course of action, to tell "my" CSM/SGM/SFC/1SG?? (wonder how that will turn out)

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Dec 26 at 2013 2:36 AM

CW2 Joseph Evans — Thu, 26 Dec 2013 02:36:18 -0500

One of the big problems is the nature corrective training can take. What is acceptable and considered appropriate is going to vary.
General Military Authority would allow an on the spot correction where the corrective training simply involves correcting the deficiency. PRT based corrective training should occur within established guidelines.
NCOIC for a task in which the junior Soldier had been assigned (Staff Duty, CQ, area clean up, range detail) would need to make sure deficiencies were corrected in order to properly conduct the assigned task. Also, that they were appropriate for the Soldier in question i.e. does not violate profile, place undue financial burden, is not demeaning or otherwise constitute "hazing".
Common courtesy would/should involve a discussion with the Soldier's first line supervisor to insure that it is proper. If this was the 3rd time the Soldier was late for Staff duty during this quarter, it constitutes a pattern of misconduct. The first line supervisor probably needs a second or third counseling statement to recommend the Soldier for an Article 15, however, the corrective training now makes that counseling statement null and void for that purpose and the leader now has to wait for the next time he screws up. Or, there are extenuating circumstances to the situation and the Soldier was late because of late release or coming off of another tasking.
You, as an NCO, are not as intimately knowledgeable regarding a Soldier and their peculiarities as their first line supervisor. For corrective training to be effective, you need to know what does and does not work on a given Soldier. If you want his first line supervisor to have your back, you better have his back. Talk with him first.

Response by CPT Daniel Walk, M.B.A. made Dec 26 at 2013 1:01 PM

CPT Daniel Walk, M.B.A. — Thu, 26 Dec 2013 13:01:10 -0500

Absolutely. "Stay in your lane" applies. If there is corrective training happening, it should always go through the individual's NCO(s). Face it, different units have different expectations. If you attempt to correct a person for not meeting your unit standards, and they are not in your unit, you are wrong.

Second, if you correct another leader's Soldier, and that leader does not share your leadership philosophy, then you have wasted your time. That other NCO is not required to enforce whatever standard your think was violated. If the styles of leadership and the methods of corrective training do not match closely, all that has been accomplished is giving a Soldier a bad attitude.

As leaders, communication should be the priority, especially with our peers and trusted agents. Corrections can always be implemented at an appropriate time.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2014 10:08 PM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Feb 2014 22:08:45 -0500

See a problem with a man that's not directly yours, correct it, then report it. If it's yours, correct it, then carry out the plan of the day.

Response by SSG Zachery Mitchell made Mar 17 at 2014 3:08 AM

SSG Zachery Mitchell — Mon, 17 Mar 2014 03:08:05 -0400

For on the spot corrections the answer is simply NO. You correct the deficiency in the Soldier the proper way. Afterwards I would go talk to that Soldiers NCO and inform them of the deficiency and what you did to correct it.

However, if you have an issue with a soldier that does not an immediate corrective action but a counseling or a more in depth corrective action, then I would go and talk to that Soldiers NCO and inform them of the issue and what my intentions are in regards to correct the problem.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2014 9:44 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Mar 2014 21:44:46 -0400

I feel that "our" Army has taken a turn for a more undisciplined force. NCO's power has been stripped and we are not supported by our senior NCOs. Don't get me wrong, we still have a few out there that are still instilled with the "old school ways", but not many. Gosh forbid if you raise your voice to a soldier, or force a soldier to do extra physical training. What happened to NCO's being respected and NCO's actually earning their rank and not just have it handed to them? Why is it so hard to get good quality NCO's who all share the same beliefs and values? If a Soldier, no matter the rank, is wrong then he or she should be corrected without it being wrong. As a courtesy, inform the CoC then carry on. If our NCO's were doing their job the right way, their Soldier's will have discipline and accept the corrections then move out.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2014 11:19 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Mar 2014 23:19:28 -0400

SFC Butler,

I will say this; Two NCO's shouldn't be arguing out like this. They should have done this behind closed doors. It's considered unprofessional and shouldn't be done in front of Soldiers. For the case of corrective training, if it was me and this Soldier disrespected me or did something out of regulations or context, I would make that Soldier stand at parade rest and correct him on his deficiencies. Then I would get his first line and inform him of the situation and let him handle it. If his first line or no one was around in his chain of command, then I would handle the situation with corrective training and inform his first line immediately when I saw him.

If it was something very serious, I would call him immediately. Now if this NCO wants to get in a yelling match with me because he felt my standards are not up to part with his, then I would bring this matter up to my Platoon Sergeant. Speaking from experience as I've had this happen to me with another NCO correcting one of my Soldiers and me corrective another NCO's Soldier, I've never had a yelling match about standards nor minded if another NCO corrected my Soldier. As long as the corrective training is in direct relations with what that Soldier did then I believe that NCO is in the right.

Response by MSG Martinis Butler made May 4 at 2014 3:27 AM

MSG Martinis Butler — Sun, 04 May 2014 03:27:49 -0400

As NCO's what I have noticed is that we lack the support of one another. We really don't have one another's back as we once did long ago.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 4:09 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 16:09:45 -0500

I would say general military authority applies here....on the spot corrections with reenforcing corrective training can be administered by anyone senior to another individual. The only acception would be if the on the sport corrective training interfers with something the individual's first line supervisor has this doing (e.g. mission accomplishment). Other wise, you are correct.

I would also go further to ask, did you pull the two NCOs aside and discuss being professional in a building where others can see them arguing? The first line of the NCO creed comes to mind....