Corrective Actions Vs. Hazing

2014-01-31T16:20:11-05:00

Corrective Actions is defined as: Non-punitive actions used as a motivational tool by authorized cadre members to immediately address deficiencies in performance or conduct and to reinforce required standards.  Hazing is defined as: any conduct whereby one military member or employee, regardless of service or rank, unnecessarily causes another military member or employee, regardless of service or rank, to suffer or be exposed to an activity which is cruel, abusive, oppressive or harmful. As a young private I was "smoked" for anywhere from 5 minutes to several hours.  Those actions today will now put you at rist to get fired for Soldier abuse. As a young private I never thought twice about it.  I made a mistake and I am now paying the consequences for my actions.  I learned quickly that if the stove is hot, not to touch it as it will burn you.  Whether my leaders were in the right or wrong does not matter... Their actions helped to form me as a leader. So the question becomes where do you draw the line? The Book answer states that physical exercise can be used for corrective action. Requiring Soldiers to perform a reasonable number of repetitions of authorized physical exercises IAW TC 3-22.20 as a motivational tool is permitted for corrective action. However, consideration must be given to the exercises, repetitions, and total number of times each day that exercise is used for corrective action to limit the potential for overtraining and injuries. We realize that we must follow the orders of those appointed over us.  Their guidelines will layout what the right answer for that unit will be.  My question to you is what is acceptable in your opinion for the use of physical exercise in the use of corrective actions?  And where do we cross the line and it becomes hazing?

Response by SFC James Baber made Jan 31 at 2014 8:28 PM

2014-01-31T20:28:05-05:00

SFC W. I think the changes that have come about and put in writing is more about politics than about right and wrong, many of us to include yourself went through what is now called abuse, but were not any worse for wear for what we went through. In actuality it is what instilled the discipline, respect and values in those of us that continued to fulfill our career and many that are still serving today. But because of the PC world of today and probably since about the late 90s/early 2000s the quality of disciplined, honest, integrity oriented Soldiers have been very minimal as most are more worried about what is in it for them, than about doing their jobs and service to country. That is the reason we have had much more issues with sexual assaults, thefts, embezzlements, homicides, drug and alcohol related incidents than we ever did in the Army of the early 90s and before. Just my personal opinion and experience of 27 years of military service.

Response by CPL David Levy made Mar 10 at 2014 1:24 PM

2014-03-10T13:24:56-04:00

It is a shame that things are changing in such a way, that it limits a leaders ability to mold soldiers into fine young men and women.

When I was in, there was corrective action that looked like hazing, but we were all better for it. Sometimes, its simply tradition and we can tell the stories and be proud to have been on the receiving end, and in time, with promotion, gotten to carry on that tradition and administer the very same corrections to your own soldiers.

One corrective action I received, was a misunderstanding, because I had not committed any infractions, a Sergeant misunderstood and got the wrong soldiers name, took me out and smoked me with a cinder block. I basically held it out in the iron chair position.. Try that for 2-3 minutes, the knees go weak and start shacking to the point it looks comical. even I laughed about it for years.

I do often think about what we could do better to improve soldierization without offending or creating any backlash. There is a new wave of service members coming into the military that is raised much different than we were (we = older). There is a sense of entitlement and self preservation about the newer generation, that any discipline now, has to be administered through paper only. Before I got out of the military in 2009, I saw soldiers cross their arms, say "NO! I won't do that, you can just write me up and take my rank, I am not doing ....!.....!.... for you"... And so, corrective action was vetoed and an Article 15 administered with extra duty and some cases, loss of rank..

Not sure why people felt it better to stand up to the man, instead of doing what was asked of them in the first place.

I guess I am just an old soul, and like to call myself old school.. But, that way of thinking is obsolete now, and I need to change with the times, adapt, and become a better leader that fits the new regime.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2014 9:29 PM

2014-03-19T21:29:12-04:00

This is my personal opinion...I've only been in 5 1/2 years, but in that time I've seen a great change in the way we handle corrective action. In my unit you CANNOT make a Soldier do a physical activity as corrective action. You have to counsel him and that's it.

No wonder our Soldier's are so weak and disrespectful. They have nothing to fear but a piece of paper that they initial, sign, and date.

Soldier's don't remember pieces of paper, they remember pain. Just like when we were in basic training we don't remember that inital counseling, we remember the shark attack, or the smoke session with pro masks on because someone's shoes were out of line. Now if you do that you are getting an Article 15 and kicked out for hazing.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2014 3:41 PM

2014-03-22T15:41:29-04:00

Now it would be considered hazing. When I came in, it was just getting some act right put into you. These days you can't even yell at Soldiers much less smoke them. Hell if you raise your voice a little, its straight to the IG. Then of course the NCO gets in trouble for disciplining that Soldier. People wonder why these new Soldiers act the way they do and don't have respect for anyone. Its because the Military in general has gotten to soft, sensitive, and to politically correct. We have a job to do when we are called to do it. And to be frank, when it comes down to it, that job is to kill people. If you can't handle a "smoke session" or getting "yelled at", how can you be expected to fire a shot much less take one when you battle or your life is on the line?

Response by CW2 Geoff Lachance made Mar 23 at 2014 8:15 AM

2014-03-23T08:15:42-04:00

Wow! The purpose for military training is to prepare you for the arduous life on the battlefield. This isn't a nine to five job where you get to pamper yourself to look your best every morning. It takes a great deal of inner strength to handle all the hardships encountered in combat. Train to a level so uncomfortable that when in combat you just go with the flow! As long as they are not breaking bones or cutting off fingers, bringing you to a point of sheer exhaustion will do nothing more than build a mental toughness that can only serve to aid you when you need it most.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2014 8:55 AM

2014-03-23T08:55:52-04:00

"Whether my leades were in the right or wrong does not matter". That one sentence scares me when uttered by a senior NCO or really any leader. That says to me it's not about what right looks like, and THAT is the wrong answer.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2014 11:17 AM

2014-03-23T11:17:07-04:00

8 count push ups. GO.

I posted the paragraph of 7-22 that addresses physical activity as corrective actions all over my Troop AO. Soldiers and NCOs are all aware of exactly what they can do. There are 8 authorized exercises that 7-22 gives you as a tool. Five repetitions per infraction. Take care to avoid overuse of physical activity as to avoid injury.

The previous posts are right about watching your ass these days. I'm currently awaiting my PCS to Fort Rucker for WOCS and am not risking anything.

Use the 5 reps as a "yank the leash" approach. It works.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2014 11:47 PM

2014-03-23T23:47:58-04:00

I have a shop full of people who act like their smartphones are grafted to their hands. After warning a particular PFC a few times, I instituted a policy whereby if you want to play on your phone you will do so in the "up" position of the V-up. So far, no one has been dumb enough to test my resolve.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2014 7:14 PM

2014-03-24T19:14:25-04:00

As a young soldier, I found the quickest way for knowledge to find it's way to the brain and stay there was through focused physical exercise. And I think that's where the line is. The purpose of corrective action is to teach and correct. Not to punish and have an outlet for a leader to vent out their rage and frustration. Again, I'd study FM 7-22 and find what is considered good form if you're unsure. As far as the risk of over-training and overuse injuries; they do happen. It's really evident with new soldiers because a growing number of them recruited, have never been in a fight before as a kid. P.E. all over the country has laxed in schoools, and it has been mentioned by top brass that this sedimentary lifestyle of kids is fast becoming a national security issue. You have people who have not used their muscles like what's expected of them in the military, have no prior structured athletic training. Then you even have older soldiers who've always had bad form when exercising and are hurting themselves. If you don't believe me, go to the post gym and check out some of the people attempting to curl 400lbs pounds with their lower back, rather than greatly lower the weight and attain proper form so actually exercise the biceps.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2014 3:38 PM

2014-03-28T15:38:58-04:00

Lot of interesting points being raised here. But my last two squads have been filled with dum-dums who are in awesome shape. Believe me, making them write an essay that will be corrected for grammar, syntax and spelling, by hand, is a far worse punishment than making them drop for push-ups. My men can do that all day.<div> </div><div>Tell them to write a four-page essay on Drill and Ceremony as it relates to Daily Duties and Scope and you'd think you'd just sentenced them to death. It all depends on the Soldier, and that's why it takes a thinking individual to be a true leader.</div>

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2014 12:52 AM

2014-03-31T00:52:54-04:00

To be honest I blame the NCO's before me and the NCO Corps now.  We overstepped our boundaries, we took it on ourselves to "Punish" instead of training and mentoring.  We forgot our true purpose, and as a result our hands are being tied. When did we stop mentoring soldiers?  When did we decide that they needed to fear their leaders?  No soldier should fear his NCO's, he should fear disappointing them, he should fear failure...but never should he fear the man/woman who is charged with making decisions that affect life or death on the battlefield. Instead of focusing on the "I can't smoke them", maybe we start focusing on mentoring and developing them.  Maybe we start instilling an Esprit De Corps that's long been lacking in the Army, maybe we make Soldier's proud to be in their organizations.  When you have pride in something, you take care of it....soldiers who have no pride in their unit and the Army are going to care less about how their actions reflect upon it.

Response by SFC Bill Mace made Mar 31 at 2014 10:09 AM

2014-03-31T10:09:05-04:00

There are two methods of teaching. Significant emotional experience and repetition. A good leader will know when to apply the appropriate method. I was an instructor for Privates and NCOs. My prefered method for corrective training of Privates was reptition. Assuming they didn't know they were deficient in performance or conduct repetition gave them an opportunity to feel and see what right looks like. NCOs on the other hand, should know the standard, therefor I prefered the significant emotional experience approach. They should already know what right looks like and apparantly chose a deficient method.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2014 9:23 PM

2014-03-31T21:23:22-04:00

When I first came in get "Smoked" was an everyday thing. If the ones in charge didn't have a good night grumpy whatever it might be we got smoked for anything. But when it was from us doing something wrong we didn't mind because we knew we screwed something up or did not do something right. Now I have been places where I did the same thing because they really screwed up but nothing that could not be corrected on the spot, and when this was done it was any where from 15 min to 30 min but that Soldier never did that action again. Now I am in Tradoc it is said we must follow the PRT card and can not have them do more than what is on it for trainees. Before I left my last duty location to come to Tradoc we would get into trouble if they caught us giving physical fitness corrective training to any Soldier they would rather us write a counseling and get them to do an essay for whatever it is they was in trouble for. I believe that the on the spot correction needs to stay and let that NCO determine what is enough up to a point, because you will have few that would take it too far and that is where their battle buddies needs to police him or her up.

Response by SPC Charles Brown made Apr 26 at 2014 9:14 PM

2014-04-26T21:14:43-04:00

I guess it would depend on which side of the fence you are on. If you are the one being corrected then it is most likely that it is considered hazing. If you are the one doing the correcting then it is corrective action. Seems like a circular discussion here.

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made May 20 at 2014 9:06 AM

2014-05-20T09:06:23-04:00

We were briefed that TRADOC imposts a 5 rep limit per exercise.. the way they go about that is: Do five pushups, position of attention, 5 mountain climbers, position of attention, 5 flutter kicks, position of attention.... repeat until satisfied. I think the main focus is that overtraining on one exercise can lead lead to injury so you just keep changing the exercise.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 10:42 PM

2015-05-10T22:42:35-04:00

I was literally JUST talking about this to one of my NCOs, the differences between then and now. When I went to basic, we were smoked mercilessly. In the end though, there were values that were ingrained in us through that, there were lessons that were taught in that and those that just could not do it, were Failure to Adapt and were no longer a burden on the Army. They never made it to the force and therefore were not an additional cost that had to be dealt with at a later time. This is NOT the case now, now they arrive and WE have an expensive useless person that is an FTA, that WE have to kick out, but the process is now FAR more difficult and we are already overtaxed.
The point is, corrective training in Basic DID THIS. They did this in an environment where EVERYONE WAS EQUAL. There was no groups that were better than the other, that stood around as a person was smoked. Everyone was rolling left, rolling right in the pit. Everyone was carrying their ruck above their head, EVERYONE WAS A TEAM, if someone did not fit the bill, they would FTA, and go home.
Send that same person to the force and suddenly they are not equal in everyone's eyes. Suddenly everyone has a different position, suddenly you have to ensure that that line is monitored more closely.
Physical Exercise, that answer is simple we as old school grown people cannot do what we always did, we must follow the new rules. Ensure that we are ONLY using the exercises in TC 3-22.20 for the appropriate period of time. If we go outside of this, start calling them names, degrading them, or become abusive then yes we are hazing them and we must be cautious of it. It may be how we grew up in the Army, but we HAVE to adapt to change, period. It doesn't matter if we agree or disagree, it only matters that we may think "this is stupid", then we say ROGER, and move out and carry out the mission.