Corrective training vs negative counseling statement

2014-04-12T10:56:23-04:00

Obviously some situations are clear. But for those ones that are not. Which is more effective, productive and best for the soldier?

Response by SPC David Beam made Apr 12 at 2014 11:41 AM

2014-04-12T11:41:12-04:00

I'll give you the same answer my NCOs have always given me. (and I happen to agree with) It depends on the person and the circumstance. Some people respond to getting smoked, some don't. Although, in the current "retention climate" the army appears to be more concerned with getting rid of soldiers than shaping them into better ones. I can't say its a bad thing though, because if we are going to downsize, you might as well downsize the soup sandwiches.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Apr 12 at 2014 12:07 PM

2014-04-12T12:07:06-04:00

Each incident and each individual is different...small infractions and Soldiers may respond to a simple "smoking" while a larger or repeated infraction and different Soldier may respond better to a counseling session with a recorded 4856. You as a leader SHOULD know when one is more appropriate or better suited than the other and also what your Soldiers respond better to.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Apr 12 at 2014 1:05 PM

2014-04-12T13:05:42-04:00

Why not do both?

Response by 1SG Johnny Carter made Apr 12 at 2014 2:31 PM

2014-04-12T14:31:48-04:00

Well you have to know what would get better results. Know your Soldiers and learn how to get the most out of them. If a good smoke session works do it but some need that negative counseling in writing with a plan of action to get their attention. As leaders we should know what gets the attention of our Soldiers to help develope them.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2014 3:17 PM

2014-04-12T15:17:07-04:00

"Smoke sessions" are not effective (having been smoked many times in my career) and can lead to being court martialed for abuse (I have testified in such matters). If the "punishment does not meet the crime," then why do it? Smoking your Soldiers is naive. As a leader, you should be capable of developing a plan of action that will garner the results you desire while developing the Soldier simultaneously. Dont be scared of a little paperwork.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2014 10:12 PM

2014-04-12T22:12:07-04:00

The answer will always depend on the individual. The "abuse" reasoning only really applies when a Soldier is repetitively smoked for no legal reason. Often I find that a smoke session is only effective for attitude adjustments. For legal infractions concerning breach of regulation or policy, I counsel on the spot. Why? An attitude or "I don't care mindset" or lack of attention to detail can always be bent into a Article 134 Counseling, but is it necessary? I say that counseling in these cases is only necessary when their is a repetitive trend and the individual does not respond to retraining. Because what really is the purpose of a 4856? To provide a written record of a dialogue between Leader and Subordinate. Why keep a record unless their is a reason to use it in the future. We as leaders use 4856's not simply for event oriented counseling, but professional growth.

To wrap it up, I find it personally disturbing when Leaders think that a few pushups are abusive. I find it problematic that we are so quick to write a narrative about how we feel about a Soldiers conduct and leaving it in their file until they PCS rather than providing them a significant emotional event to change their direction with. No, smoke session after smoke session is not the answer for mentoring Soldiers, but I see it as giving the Soldier a chance to correct themselves prior to becoming subject to administrative action s.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2014 3:50 PM

2014-04-13T15:50:01-04:00

My answer goes contrary to the current school of thought: smoke session if you want them to learn, negative counseling when you're preparing for UCMJ.

I know that goes against everything the Army says is correct, however policies don't determine what makes great Soldiers, experience and Leaders do. In my short experience, my leaders smoked me until I learned. I still remember doing handstand pushups against the wall and my NCO saying, "there are smart Rangers, and strong Rangers; which one are you?" Paperwork was that ultimate big gun that your leader broke out when it was time to stand before the 1SG.
Taking away the threat of a little sweat leaves that team leader with little in the way of elevating the ROE without going straight to UCMJ.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2014 4:18 AM

2014-04-14T04:18:48-04:00

They both worked for me, as a young leader I would smoke them but I don't have time for that now and leave that up to the NCO's, I push paper work.

Response by MSG Wade Huffman made Apr 26 at 2014 7:00 AM

2014-04-26T07:00:46-04:00

There is probably a certain degree of truth to the poster; but I believe if an NCO were to "Take him out back and put him through an enormous amount of physical pain"; the NCO would then have paper on him or her.
Now.. as to your question... yes.. corrective training is an excellent option always has been and hopefully always will be; but should it be in lieu of counseling or in conjunction with counseling? I say in conjunction with so that it's crystal clear why there is corrective training. I can't believe that a single counseling would be held against a soldier for very long; especially if the soldier is counseled regularly (as they should be) and there isn't a pattern of issues evolving.
Somehow I think we've forgotten that counselings are NOT a bad thing! They are a development tool and should be used for good and bad.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2014 9:11 AM

2014-04-26T09:11:03-04:00

Being "very old school" myself I am going to quote a very influential General I once protected.
Praise in public, but counsel in private.
That being said I am wholeheartedly against physical corrective training and would quickly deal with my NCOs if I saw it done. I see it as an abuse and misuse of power.
Making a soldier do push-up, flutter kicks, burpees, etc... Does absolutely nothing to correct the infraction. If the soldier was a PT failure I might make them do more of the failed event than other soldiers but that was it.
I strongly believe in paperwork. If a soldier is subpar they need to know that and you need to annotate that. If an NCO is subpar, likewise.
The reason we have so many piss poor leaders in the Army today is because someone was either afraid or too lazy to do the paperwork. That same mentality of "I don't want to hurt their career". BS! You didn't do a thing, they did, or failed to.
A good soldier never has to stand on the carpet.
Anyone who actually knows the regs should know that the boards will never see a counseling statement but they will see GOMAR's and such as it should be.
I agree that people grow, change and improve but that does not negate the fact that said NCO sexually assaulted someone or got a DUI at some point.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2014 10:10 AM

2014-04-26T10:10:14-04:00

In of themselves a counseling statement is not harmful. It can lead to something harmful, if you repeat the same offense over and over and have been warned by paper counseling statements...might find an article 15 in your future. But the statement didn't do that...it warned you and you kept going.
Not to mention counseling statements go away when you PCS to a new unit...you get a clean slate.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 11 at 2014 8:05 AM

2014-06-11T08:05:50-04:00

Depends on the Soldier! Different Soldiers respond to different things in different ways. Diverse leadership tactics go a long way as opposed to one uniform answer.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2015 9:21 PM

2015-01-02T21:21:08-05:00

The problem is in the question. All counseling is corrective in nature. It is meant to point out what worked or did not work and what can the individual or group of individuals take from that experience to better the outcomes.

That is what feedback is, just plain and simple information, facts that are well apparent or even recorded. Then there is the comparison of those actions compared to the standards. Finally the road forward.

This is not a hard concept, just that leaders will most often spend the 80% on the 5% and the truth is, it should be the opposite, spending 5% of the time correcting and the 80% leading and teaching. The 15% that is left over is the time allowed for that supervisor to learn and work with their own supervisor in evaluating them as a leader and the situations they are dealing with at that level of the chain of command.

Seems so many just keep wanting to complicate this whole process by injecting their own wants and desires most often expressed as directive in nature only. How sad to never be happy with the workers. This has been so well documented not only in the military but in the civilian community as well.

Just ask where you are spending your time.....

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made Apr 29 at 2015 10:24 AM

2015-04-29T10:24:19-04:00

Always counsel but corrective training is a plan of action within that counseling. As a former legal geek you want to counsel if only to have a paper trail if the Soldier continues on the path they are on. They you show that you have attempted to correct it.

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Dec 7 at 2019 10:29 AM

2019-12-07T10:29:15-05:00

Both can be used or use one and then the other Counseling statements are not always negative and can be both good and bad, With that said you should know your Soldiers well enough to decide which tool works best for each Soldier and apply it accordingly. It would be my opinion that if you View counseling as always NEGITIVE you are using it wrong. I had a file on everyone of my Soldiers including a 3x5 card with information on it about family, home of record, date of rank, and so on. What I called quick information. Just because you write a counseling does not make it bad it is what you do with it that makes it bad or good. MTC Good Luck.