Corrective training, Who wants it back?

2014-06-07T14:37:25-04:00

I PCSed from Germany in 2011 and when I got to Hawaii I was in the S3 shop and had 4 soldiers that worked for me. I sent them to do something and 2 hours later, they were nowhere to be found. I finally hear a laugh and find the three of them smoking and joking behind the dumpster. WTF??? In seconds, Ive got them all on their faces and the S3 SGM comes out and screams at my soldiers to get up. Calls me over, and tells me we arent allowed to do that anymore.
Now, we have privates that dont listen, dont do what theyre told, and dont care because there is no punishment! Sure you can counsel them, but it takes 4 of them to make anything real happen and if your unit is anything like mine, then you KNOW nothing will happen. There's no more discipline in the Army and we could bring it back, if we just bring back corrective PT.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Jun 7 at 2014 2:43 PM

2014-06-07T14:43:17-04:00

Are you saying that push-ups serve a better purpose than counseling/taking time away/Article 15s for corrective training?

What have they REALLY learned from your method?

Do you think their deficiencies would have been overcome if your corrective training continued?

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 7 at 2014 2:47 PM

2014-06-07T14:47:47-04:00

I think it was a mistake to remove correctional PT, especially now that we live in the age of the "entitled" generation. How can you teach good order and discipline without the discipline? Most of the social problems involving the 18-30 year old age group (delinquency, violence, criminal acts,....) can be directly related to poor/no discipline and accountability provided by their parents. Since their parents don't provide it, the military should, especially if they join the military. I know for a fact that if I spoke to my parents the way these kids speak to their parents nowadays, my butt would be scarred for life!

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Jun 7 at 2014 3:14 PM

2014-06-07T15:14:53-04:00

You can and should be doing corrective training! A Soldier walks past garbage and does not pick it up, instruct them to do a police call, and you supervise it! Simply put, corrective training is something that is meant to correct behavior and improve performance.

If you have a repeat offender within the ranks, then I suggest you take it to paper.....look at the back of the counseling statement, clearly layout the plan of action during the counseling, your expectations to implement to correct their behavior....use the tools available, do the counseling and outline the corrective training and (PLEASE) do the follow up assessment counseling.

Don't be afraid to be creative, to make them think about their performance and why they are being counseled. Assigning an essay is about the least creative thing you can do....assigning them to instruct a class to the section/squad/platoon might be a better way to accomplish your desired results - you must be present to conduct a rehearsal of that class before the Soldier presents it to the section though. Corrective training has went nowhere!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 7 at 2014 3:26 PM

2014-06-07T15:26:48-04:00

That's crazy. I still get corrective training as a SGT. But it builds character. The problem now a days is that when I make a correction Soldiers want to argue. Then they get all butt hurt and go cry to someone. That's okay though 500 word papers are the new method of corrective training. They fail to do that. Another counseling. I could go on and on but I'll stop my rant.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 7 at 2014 3:32 PM

2014-06-07T15:32:14-04:00

Corrective training is still here. While it is true that there is a clear line between it and hazing, corrective training is a vital tool for NCOs to develop individuals, teams, and squads. AR 600-20, FM 7-22, and the Non Commissioned Officers Guide support how this role is employed by NCOs.

CSM Malloy from USASMA explains it well....

http://ncojournal.dodlive.mil/2013/01/10/from-the-csm-correction-should-train-not-humiliate/

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 7 at 2014 5:57 PM

2014-06-07T17:57:31-04:00

I would first ask the question if you know the difference between corrective training, and corrective action?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2014 4:13 PM

2014-06-18T16:13:25-04:00

people think corrective training is the devil but honestly its not really a big deal ranger school does it sapper school does it etc.. so why is it a big deal if we do it at the unit i noticed that newer privates run wild now because we dont do it now but units that still do it have more discipline looking back on my scuff sessions they were bad but im glad i went thru them it wasnt the end of the world i got over them and i learned my lessons from them

Response by SSG Joshua Locke made Jun 18 at 2014 4:29 PM

2014-06-18T16:29:14-04:00

I yelled at a SPC yesterday and got a "talking to" for it. He walks up to me and has some strap on his key chain hes playing with and says to me "Hey Sarge, why you didnt finish that inventory I told you to do on Friday?" I lost my mind. "Who the f*** do you thin you're talking to, I dont work for you, get out of my face, why aren't you standing at parade rest when you speak to me...." and the SFC behind me said. "damn that was refreshing, I havent seen anyone get their ass handed to them like that since I got here." But the MSG in the office down the hall told me that I am not allowed to talk to soldiers like that because it's disrespectful and offensive.... I stood there with my mouth open for a good 3-4 minutes before I could even figure out where I was and what uniform I had on. Blew my mind.

Response by MSG Martin C. made Jun 18 at 2014 7:27 PM

2014-06-18T19:27:18-04:00

Corrective training still much alive it just depends of what you consider corrective training. The form of corrective training via exersise should only be utilize as an attention grabber for PRT related infractions such as poor performance or form during the session. If what you want it's to "SMOKE" someone to correct defiencies you probably lack the talent and innovation as a leader and are constricted by just one box. If you read FM 7-22 it will give you authorized exersises and also states how "SMOKING" it's counterproductive. Just like the CSM explained on his comment there is more effective ways to modify behavior what I would challenge you it's to think the following. What was the infraction? Is it a one time thing or a recurrent event? What would the end statemt be once you are done with your corrective training? Have you actually take the time to set the standard and inspect the task before assuming Soldiers are just blowing you off? Remember that generational speaking you are different than your Soldiers take time to know what drives them and most important always counsel for positive and negative alike.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2014 10:38 PM

2014-06-18T22:38:03-04:00

WOW! I never knew it was gone. I'm not saying I smoke the bag off my joes but give me a break. I let my Team Leaders handle 90% of the corrective action in my squad.

We had one SPC in our Recon Platoon that did not know his rank structure. Needless to say he would call an O3, Lieutenant. Within a few days of low crawling, push-ups and other things we could think of he knew Army rank. He quit the platoon shortly after that.

Sorry to hear your section is ran this way. Good luck. You could try and flag them.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2014 11:27 PM

2014-06-18T23:27:50-04:00

It really depresses me how the army's solution to almost everything has become to throw paper at it, do a class about it, or just ART-15 the problem away. The main problem with UCMJ/ART-15's is that they are not "immediate", by the time an ART-15 has gone through, you're lucky if you can even remember what the ART-15 was for without reading through all the paperwork. Additionally, as another member pointed out, ART-15's and UCMJ are permanent. Physical punishment and suffering on the other hand IS immediate and temporary and often is the azimuth check a young soldier needs to get back on the right track without screwing up his career.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2014 8:22 AM

2014-06-19T08:22:50-04:00

There needs to be alot brought back.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jun 19 at 2014 10:42 AM

2014-06-19T10:42:38-04:00

Do not confuse corrective training and punishment. You are not authorized to punish a Soldier. Only Commanders are authorized to impose punishment. Your responsibility is to provide corrective training that addresses whatever deficiency that Soldier has displayed.

Corrective training never went away. The only thing that has changed is the expectation that NCO's actually train personnel on their deficiencies, instead of just arbitrarily smoking people.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2014 10:58 AM

2014-06-19T10:58:04-04:00

We are a professional organization, regardless of each of our MOS we should all strive to do and be the best we can; not only within that MOS but as a Soldier in general. I made my share of mistakes, poor judgement calls, and at times boarderline insubordination, many times I was just a plain old jack ass to my leaders, however, my leaders then would give me corrective training. Sometimes it was on the spot and it challenged my body, sometimes it would drag out for days or weeks; both ways helped shape me into a better Soldier. I do believe in correcting Soldiers before it gets to the paper trail. Many Soldiers can be turned around and become quality profesionals with a little mentoring and training. Save the paper work for the last resort to establish a negative patern outside of the Army's values in order to seperate the Soilder from the Army.

Response by MSG Floyd Williams made Jun 19 at 2014 10:56 PM

2014-06-19T22:56:03-04:00

The current changes made by Congress is the downfall of the military, PVT Joe Knuckle Head enters the military and leaves the military still a knuckle head. Whatever happen to the slogan, " Give me your boy and I'll send you back a man?" Those days are long gone!

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2014 2:50 PM

2014-07-06T14:50:31-04:00

I have noticed one thing from my short time here. Any new soldier automatically gets put in a category that says they will never live up to the standard of a soldier. I agree my generation is lacking the discipline of those before but there are a few of us who genuinely care about the customs and courtesies of the military. I took the same oath, protect the same constitution, and live by those values we learned. Our "soft" generation are the ones who will be leaders in a few years. If we aren't encouraged how will we encourage, if aren't taught how will we teach, if we aren't disciplined how will we discipline? My NCOs have done an excellent job at "teaching" in very creative ways where the end result is a more disciplined, respectful, and confident soldier. Now that said nothing teaches better than a few good push-ups and a puddle of sweat.

Response by SGT Jeremy Livingston made Jul 7 at 2014 4:22 PM

2014-07-07T16:22:21-04:00

I was only a SGT for a day (the day of my medical retirement) so I have been on the receiving end of a lot of "wall to wall counseling/corrective training" I feel I am better for it, also I am was much stronger than when I came in.... Does this mean that there is no corrective PT in basic training? How do you hold anyone accountable? Counselling statements don't mean anything.....

Response by SSG Joshua Locke made Jul 8 at 2014 7:42 AM

2014-07-08T07:42:07-04:00

The fact of the matter is, if you counsel a soldier, to the soldier it is simply a piece of paper. They dont learn anything from it and they will do it again because the punishment is another piece of paper. HOWEVER, back when things were "normal," if you smoked a soldier until he puked and then PTed him some more, then 9 times out of 10, they wouldnt do it again. Now you can only make someone do 5 reps of an exercise and call it good. I may have been a little harsh, but I am telling you, our soldiers were disciplined and did what they were told without question. It is just a different kind of Army and I wish we could go back.

Response by SPC(P) Samantha Moore made Dec 4 at 2014 1:37 PM

2014-12-04T13:37:12-05:00

I believe in corrective training and I also believe in punishment especially in the form of PT. at the end of the day I would rather do that than paperwork.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 1:41 PM

2014-12-04T13:41:47-05:00

Corrective training is still around. You just can't smoke the piss out of a Joe for a simple mistake or lapse in judgement. Corrective training is meant to correct the nature of the issue at hand. One of the worst punishments and yet the most rewarding was having to write a essay. You really have to think about what you are writing. Making someone write a 1000 word essay in APA format with 4 citations is worse than a 30 minute smoking any day of the week.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2017 10:07 PM

2017-12-27T22:07:58-05:00

I didn't know it had gone away. I initially enlisted in 1994, before HR took over, and went to Ft. Benning for basic and AIT. It was wonderful! Got out on a medical, only to come back in in Dec 2006. Had to go back through basic and AIT. The second time it was at Jackson. Both times were great (yes, I loved it). The mentality of our armed forces has been changed by a government that wanted to turn it into a social experiment. That's the real issue. Training should be hard. War is not fun. People trying to kill you is not fun. As such, there should be circumstances for making mistakes. The worse the mistake, the harder the corrective training should be. If one cannot handle the simple things when going about the day, how will they perform when being shot at? How will they have their buddies backs, if they can't be counted on to do theresearch job when not under fire? Guess I am just getting old...

Response by SPC Jasen E. made Nov 24 at 2018 5:26 PM

2018-11-24T17:26:05-05:00

I have a unique view to this that maybe some might find helpful. I have been subject to the UCMJ since I was 13 years old. At that age I attended 2 weeks of Naval basic training as a member of the Sea Cadet corps (which, as an unrelated side note, at that time allowed me to carry an active duty miltary ID until I later joined the military at 18). Along with those 2 weeks at 13 yrs old, we also did weekly meetings/classes/drill and multiple week-long training exercises during the year. We were trained by both the Navy Drill Instructors at NTC San Diego and Marine Corps Drill Instructors at MCRD San Diego. While it was geared for kids our age, it was only just. They held little back. We even went head to head with actual naval recruits as if we were recruits ourselves in some events like firefighting, first aid, and D&C. In those events, and several others, the standards were the same. We trained hard and we messed up a lot. Hazing, or smoking as we called it then, was just par for the course. It could last hours, depending on the severity of the infraction. Of course, we hated it, but in the end, there was no denying that it made us better. That training didn’t come by being hand-held throughout our drill sessions. We were training alongside actual Naval and Marine personnel oftentimes by the same trainers. When we screwed up, we were smoked. It was hard, it was gritting, it was sweaty, and it could last for hours. It was so intense that we were extra motivated to getting things done right, getting things done quick, and getting things done to military standards. It was good for us. We learned fast or we learned that it would have been better had we learned fast. It was excellent motivation and we felt indescribable when we got things right. Just like we felt indescribable when we took 1st place in firefighting and D&C against real Naval and Marine recruits.

Then I traded in my green active duty Sea Cadet ID card and got another card that was identical except where the first one said, Sea Cadet, the new one said, Army. Let the disappointment set in. Don’t get me wrong, I had a blast during Army basic training. But corrective action was on its way out—though not entirely. Some things just seemed half-assed. D&C, for instance, was nonexistent. Sure, we knew the basic commands but we looked like a soup sandwich we marched. There was no corrective action to make us get great at something that is so fundamental the services of just 6 years earlier. We would get in trouble with some things, but when it came time for the corrective action, the drill Sargents seemed afraid to make us afraid to fail again. Half the time we were receiving corrective action we never even broke a sweat. It was sad. And I hate to say it, but while we had pride in what we were doing, we had no drive to go above and beyond. There were no pride building sessions that left your limbs feeling like rubber when you were done. Being half-assed wasn’t an option in the Sea Cadets. We were not only motivated to complete the task correctly, but we were driven to go beyond.

I personally have witnessed both approaches and I can say that I much prefer the older approach. Corrective action, smoking, hazing, unscheduled PT, whatever you want to call it, instill pride in one’s self. It instills drive and discipline. Pride, drive, and discipline are the backbone to any nation’s military and to take away any one of those make our military a joke to some who join them.

Response by SGT John Ball made Feb 27 at 2022 5:58 PM

2022-02-27T17:58:29-05:00

I am the product of good and hard corrective training. I was what you would call a knucklehead when I was a young troop because I had a hard time keeping my mouth shut. I turned out just fine and became a better man because of corrective training. It's no wonder that discipline is gone and without discipline it will be a recipe for disaster. If a Joe can't take a bit of corrective training, then I shudder to see how he reacts when the bullets start flying. Yes, I have seen how the entitled generation is and it is not good. People who can't take a little discipline should not be in the Army.