Counseling....Are we doing it right?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 Feb 2014 10:44:15 -0500

I have to admit that as a young Sgt, I was guilty of the cookie cutter counseling "read and sign". How many Soldiers actually get counseled the way they should be, face to face, two-way conversation, setting real goals, and closing them out?

Additionally, how many NCOs actually get counseled/counsel using the DA Form 2166-8-1? My NCOS (I currently rate three Sgts) get quarterly counselings almost to the day using the support form.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2014 11:21 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 Feb 2014 11:21:25 -0500

Not long after we took command, I sat down in the office with my Detachment Sergeant and we went over the DA Form 2166-8-1 and we talked for a good 30 minutes about my goals and expectations for both him and the detachment. He told me, "Sir, this is the first time I have ever had my rater sit down with me and lay everything out for me in an actual counseling session." I was shocked! It was clear to me that counselings Army wide need a lot more work because I have seen and heard about far too many "cookie cutter" counseling sessions that last 2 minutes or less. After I had my half hour session with my Detachment Sergeant, with everything written out and discussed, we had clearly set standards for performance and established left and right limits and a clear direction for the unit. He counseled his NCO's the same way I counseled him and I had a tremendous amount of trust and confidence in his abilities. The support forms MUST be used more! I find it a to be a disservice to your subordinates to do otherwise. I have had 2 minute counseling sessions before from my superiors and they did absolutely nothing to confirm or deny if I was doing the right thing. We owe our Soldiers clear guidance in the form of better counselings!

Response by 1SG Shane Hansen made Feb 5 at 2014 11:42 AM

1SG Shane Hansen — Wed, 05 Feb 2014 11:42:04 -0500

I force my commander to give me my quarterly counseling, mostly turns into an OPD on how to do counseling, but hey, it gets done. I require feedback because I like to constantly improve upon my self and my goals.

As for the NCOs in my company, I ensure they are getting their quarterly counseling from the PSG or PLT LDR as required. I inspect the counseling records monthly to make certain the 2166-8-1 is being used appropriately. The same goes for the young Soldiers, their counseling packets are inspected monthly as well to ensure they are personalized and not cookie cutter. You know the old saying "what gets checked, gets done."

I have set in on a few of their counseling sessions also, just to see what techniques they are using and to make sure it is not a one way conversation. After watching a few of them, I trust they are doing the right thing.

Response by 1SG Alan Bailey made Feb 5 at 2014 1:23 PM

1SG Alan Bailey — Wed, 05 Feb 2014 13:23:32 -0500

I feel as a Army that counsel "cookie cutter" than actual good, honest counseling. As 1SG and BN OPS SGT i recieved outstanding initial and quarterly counseling, there was no questions on my left and right limits and expectations, and that is what I expect from my rater.

I have seen too many times at all ranks, a verbal you are responsible for this and this and that would be the limit of your initail and the next thing you get is a COR or Annaul NCOER, this is the wrong answer. It sets the rater and senior rater up for NCOER that is not very truthful and the rated Soldier with not knowing how to improve themself.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2014 2:26 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 Feb 2014 14:26:36 -0500

Clearly leadership that is both educated and involved in the counseling process is absolutely essential to addressing this problem. But is there anything else that will help solve the systemic issue of poor counseling? Should NCOs and Officers be more willing to step up and demand proper counseling from their supervisors?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2014 6:25 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Feb 2014 06:25:39 -0500

In my 5 and a years in the Army, I have only had a close out to counselings once, and that was right before I went to the board in Oct 2013... Since it was obvious to me that my leadership at the time before that didn't really understand how a counseling session was supposed to work, I try and give my soldiers everything I can as a leader, because I don't want to be the NCO in COC that they talk negatively about, and I want them to have the things I did not as Jr. Enlisted.

Response by SSG Andrew Dydasco made Feb 6 at 2014 6:41 AM

SSG Andrew Dydasco — Thu, 06 Feb 2014 06:41:14 -0500

SSG,

In my one year and some change Army career, I've had over 10 first-lines. I've had more initial counselings than monthly counselings. My current NCO, however, has been my NCO longer than any of the previous NCOs, and she is a CPL. Her way of counseling has been the best I have ever experienced thus far:

- She actually gives a crap about what she is counseling me on.

- She not only criticizes my faults or areas in need of improvement, but also commends me for the positives as well. She's the only NCO I've had who gives positive counselings instead of only negative.
- Makes me set honest goals, and then takes those goals and strives to help me achieve them.

- Makes sure it's one-on-one; doesn't play with having my business thrown around for others to hear, even if there is nothing negative involved.

I think all NCOs who are counseling subordinates should follow the same example, because it's the right thing to do and I think it's unrealistic to expect a subordinate to make improvements/sustainments if your attitude shows you don't really care either way. And that doesn't mean you have to be soft. She digs into me just as much as she commends me, but that's only because she has the right mindset: ACTUALLY caring about helping Soldiers. At the end of the day, if an NCO doesn't share that mindset, it's very visable, and initiating change in your Soldier(s) won't happen unless the help is being provided elsewhere.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2014 11:23 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Mar 2014 11:23:39 -0400

Something I haven't seen directly addressed, but a huge omission I've noticed when I look at counseling is the positive event oriented counseling.

Having been in a team leader role at a minimum since 2006 I've seen good and bad counseling styles, but I've seen very few leaders who will actually take the time to give their subordinates a positive event oriented counseling. When done right it has been both a huge motivator as well as making the writing of awards much easier. My Platoon Sergeant from 2007-2008 once said that any leader worth his salt should write more positive counseling statements than negative.

To illustrate my point, lets say that Joe Snuffy is a Specialist who happens to be really good at his job. We go to the field for two weeks and I notice that instead of just completing his own assigned tasks he has taken the younger or lesser experienced soldiers around him and worked to improve their own proficiency whatever task he is performing. Instead of an "atta-boy" and a pat on the back I sit down when we get to the rear and write an event oriented counseling statement stating what he did, why it was important, and give him feedback based on his performance (in this case, his performance giving peers hip-pocket training). Six months down the road I want to write an award for SPC Snuffy, all I need to do for my Achievements on the DA 638 is pull my counseling file for the soldier. The award will be less of a 'cookie cutter' ordeal with generic achievements but it will also be much more likely to gain approval.

Does anyone else have experience with this?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2014 3:04 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Apr 2014 15:04:40 -0400

Rapid promotions clearly show that we are realtively less capable doing monthly, administrative, negative and positive counseling of the Soldiers. Basics, Basics, Basics, I think before a leader can be promoted further a historical look at his or her prior service and committment to his or her Soldiers needs to be evaluated. Are you a copy and paste leader or are you a individual critiqued type of NCO? Are th ecounselings the same thing over and over again for monthlys or are they tapered to fit improvements sustainments and goals differently each month. We have NCO's in the force that I have seen first had SSG's who do not know what a bad boy statement is nor did they ever write a DA 4856. Now they are promoted and asked to rate people that is why the promotion system and rating systems are screwed up. We lack writing and social skills and are expected to maneuver/squeeze into leadership positions asking subordinates what they want not what they deserve another NCO slips through the cracks with a 1:1 because the rating NCO or counseling NCO does not know any better. Yes we dont do the right thing because it is jsut easier to pawn it off or write it poorly.