Since my court martial was downgraded to a FG Art 15, will the charge be different?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Dec 2021 06:09:22 -0500

I have been under investigation for 10 months. 1SG said they don’t have enough and can’t pursue a CM. My first reading is next week with the LTC.
Questions:
Will the charge be different compared to previous CM??
If I demand CM will it go through because of what my 1SGs said?

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Dec 8 at 2021 6:46 AM

SFC Ralph E Kelley — Wed, 08 Dec 2021 06:46:51 -0500

Don't sign it. Your 1SG (STOMP! STOMP!) is giving you a hint.
However go see a JAG Officer now.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Dec 8 at 2021 7:52 AM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Wed, 08 Dec 2021 07:52:09 -0500

You need to speak to a legal rep and get better advice than you can find here.

Response by SrA John Monette made Dec 8 at 2021 7:57 AM

SrA John Monette — Wed, 08 Dec 2021 07:57:04 -0500

What is the original charge?

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Dec 8 at 2021 8:11 AM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Wed, 08 Dec 2021 08:11:50 -0500

Quick answer. Yes, you can demand a Court Martial. #2. Go talk to Trial Services instead of Rally Point. You can often get good advice here, but you need a lawyer. https://www.7atc.army.mil/Portals/17/Documents/SJA/Article15.pdf?ver=2018-05-23-120734-190

Article15.pdf

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Dec 8 at 2021 8:21 AM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Wed, 08 Dec 2021 08:21:31 -0500

OK, I have three pieces of advice here.

First, If they do not have enough for a court martial, then it would seem that forcing a Court Martial is the way to go. DON'T DO IT. Because they can throw on any and all lesser charges to get SOMETHING to stick and you are stuck with a federal conviction - likely a federal felony - on your record for life. If you are charged with murder because you went out after curfew and shot a guy, but they can't prove you actually shot the guy, you will still end up going down for violating curfew.

But that is less important than point 2....

Second, you know whether or not you did whatever you are accused of. If you did it, take your punishment. If you did not, fight with every fiber of your being.

And that is less important than point 3....

Talk to JAG now! Your 1SG's admission that they do not have enough for a CM *should* be enough to not only beat a CM but ALSO beat a FG A15. Remember that even A15s are hearings. Commander sits as judge and jury, but you are still allowed to defend yourself, and still entitled to the aid of counsel. No matter what we tell you - myself included - the Trial Defense lawyer will have better - and more accurate advice.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Dec 8 at 2021 9:09 AM

MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P — Wed, 08 Dec 2021 09:09:26 -0500

Ok, first point.... RUN, don't walk to your nearest Area Defense Counsel (or Army equivalent) office! Speak to NO ONE about the charges until and unless a qualified legal representative tells you to. Better yet, find and retain a qualified civilian attorney who is versed and experienced in military law. There's usually several around most military installations. It will cost you money but the civilian attorney is more likely to vigorously defend you against whatever charges are brought.

Second point...If your 1SG is saying they don't have enough for a Court Martial, then s/he is likely telling you there isn't much evidence for legal action (including A15). See point one above....

Third... Sign NOTHING without legal representation present. Just because the Commander wants to proceed with A15 action and not a full blown Courts Martial does NOT mean you are not entitled to legal representation. As SFC Casey O'Mally stated earlier, A15 actions are still legal hearings and the same rules for representation apply.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Dec 8 at 2021 10:31 AM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Wed, 08 Dec 2021 10:31:19 -0500

Here are the lines...read between them.
As a commander I didn't offer a Art 15 unless I had enough to go to Courts Martial. If I didn't have enough then it was a gamble to go for an Art 15. If they didn't sign then it probably went away or was just downgraded to a Letter of Reprimand or Counseling. My suggestion is go to the Defense Council immediately and get some advice. I would not sign anything unless I talked to them first.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Dec 8 at 2021 11:03 AM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Wed, 08 Dec 2021 11:03:21 -0500

Ask your defense counsel. Not a good subject for social media.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2021 12:36 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Dec 2021 12:36:46 -0500

Talk - to - legal.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Dec 8 at 2021 5:08 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Wed, 08 Dec 2021 17:08:01 -0500

1. You can request a CM for any charge- your right under UCMJ. Change charge- probably not- it is up to the CDR as to what type of punishment to seek, a FG can always be upped to CM by the appropriate CDR

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2021 8:17 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Dec 2021 20:17:56 -0500

SURVEY SAYS......TALK TO A LAWYER

Response by SFC Randy Hellenbrand made Dec 15 at 2021 11:04 AM

SFC Randy Hellenbrand — Wed, 15 Dec 2021 11:04:45 -0500

SEE A LAWYER FIRST. As you're active, there should be plenty of civvie ones around your post if the military one rubs you the wrong way.

Response by TSgt Carl Johnson made Dec 16 at 2021 1:26 PM

TSgt Carl Johnson — Thu, 16 Dec 2021 13:26:57 -0500

Have you sought out the legal advice that everyone on RallyPoint told you to get? Have you seen your commander, yet? Please let us know the final disposition. I've noticed that everyone that responded has treated you as "innocent until proven guilty." That is refreshing, compared to the MSM and other social media. If you are innocent, I hope that you are cleared. If you are guilty, and the other party deserved a butt-kicking, I hope they go easy on you. If you are guilty as charged, well...Just man up and take your lumps and be a better man from this point on.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 16 at 2021 7:55 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Dec 2021 19:55:36 -0500

Update
Saw my cdr (LTC), and they went ahead with GCM and went straight to tds. Prelim Tuesday. Told tds that the both parties at at fault and the victim doesn’t want to testify. Hopefully it’ll pass and I’ll be free of this situation. Thank you all for the reply’s and wish a happy holidays!