Details below: following a negative interaction with two NCOs, should I drop it or pursue it further?

2019-07-02T14:34:04-04:00

So today we we're loading up a bus with people. Some of us were early. A sergeant said that we'll need to double up because it's going to be full (it was no where near). I told him I'll move when I need to. I wasn't trying to be insubordinate or disrespectful but I guess he took it that way. He said "no you move now. Who the f**k do you think you are?" So I moved. Then his SSG busy told me he needed my seat (all to himself) so I moved again. And all they did was talk trash on me for the day. So my question is am I wrong, or was he? If he was do I take it up with someone higher up the chain of command? Or do I ignore it? I have been told way worse things from people better than him. He's never liked me. and lots of people think he's a bit of a jerk To put it tactfully.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2019 2:42 PM

2019-07-02T14:42:51-04:00

You both were wrong. In the beginning, you should have just moved when the Sergeant told you to. The "I'll move when I need to" comment was borderline insubordinate. As for the SSG telling you to move just so he could have the seat all to himself and then talk smack about you with the other NCO....that makes them wrong, as well.

As for taking this higher....As yourself one thing: Is this hill worth fighting for?

Response by SFC Michael D. made Jul 2 at 2019 3:00 PM

2019-07-02T15:00:58-04:00

Pick your battles SPC. Live to fight another day. Sometimes you're the dog and sometimes you're the hydrant.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Jul 2 at 2019 3:09 PM

2019-07-02T15:09:53-04:00

If I had asked you to move and double up and you said "I'll move when I need to" in a group of Soldiers I'd have taken it as an inappropriate comment and given you heck too. Probably wouldn't have dropped an F bomb on you and wouldn't have talked crap about you, but you'd have gotten the message that your comment was out of line.
If you came to PSG, 1SG or CSM St.Cyr and told me the story as written I'd ask you what you expected for coming off as a smart butt. Then SSG Numb nuts and I'd have a chat you'd never know about in reference how to make on the spot corrections and appropriate escalation of force verses situation.
Next time just move and when the bus is loaded and seats are empty spread out. No comments required.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2019 3:28 PM

2019-07-02T15:28:47-04:00

Bus? You got a bus? http://www.dustyfile.com/the-army-cattle-car was how we travelled in style. :)

Enough said in the other comments. When an E3 and lower the best policy is to keep it zipped unless asking for a teaching moment. E4, E5 is where you learn to grow a military snark, when to use it, how to use it, and how to give a teachable moment to E1-E3s. ;)

Hint: While moving to obey the "order" an E4 *might* get away with "I could have moved if the bus filled up"...

The Army Cattle Car - Dustyfile.com

There are funny memories sometimes to be found at museums. I reminisced with my children yesterday over Facetime, when I saw this 80 passenger “Cattle Car”. I remember riding on them to and from field training when I was in ROTC, maybe when I was in my Field Artillery Officer Basic Course in the early …

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2019 3:46 PM

2019-07-02T15:46:53-04:00

You should have moved,as directed. Having you give up your seat was likely because of your initial comment. You've nothing to elevate up the chain other than your own behavior. You've nothing to gain by apologizing, as it's likely over, unless, of course you raise it again.
I'm not signing off on them saying things about you, but you should've done as instructed, not as you felt.
Let it go.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jul 2 at 2019 3:48 PM

2019-07-02T15:48:00-04:00

You initiated the negative contact, getting shamed a bit seems like a fare trade off. The NCO could have gotten you into trouble for insubordination. Follow the orders of those appointed over you. They don’t have to make sense to you, as long as they are not illegal or immoral, and would not cause the loss of life or limb. Thank you for your service.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2019 4:34 PM

2019-07-02T16:34:09-04:00

I think you both demonstrated poor tact. You should be very careful about contradicting someone who outranks you. Unless it's a hill worth fighting on and there may be bigger problems later on if you don't stand your ground, it's not a good idea to say (or even imply) you know better then the person of superior rank. As a Specialist, it's your duty to obey all legal and lawful orders from NCOs and Officers. Unless asked, don't state your opinion when you're given a legitimate order. Even if there were only a handful of Soldiers on the bus, it's still within his prerogative to make you and the rest of his subordinates double up on the bus seats. It would be a bit petty perhaps, but nothing illegitimate to making you load the bus that way.

As for his reaction to your response, that might just be his leadership style of cracking down on possible insubordination. I do agree it was unprofessional of him to trash talk about you with a fellow NCO.

My recommendation is to put this behind you and be more mindful about what you say to your superiors. You have nothing to gain by fighting this.

Response by LT Brad McInnis made Jul 2 at 2019 5:03 PM

2019-07-02T17:03:04-04:00

That is not the fight you want to have... Imagine going to your PLT LDR, and he/she asks why you are here, and your statement is that you were disrespected for not moving seats in a bus. Probably not going your way. Better to go to the SGT and tell them you were wrong not to follow his instructions, and that you were not happy that they talked bad about you in public.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2019 6:21 PM

2019-07-02T18:21:46-04:00

Let it go. Pick your battles. I've learned after almost 10 years there are things you don't want to fall on a sword for. Good luck.

Response by LCpl Russell Wallace made Jul 2 at 2019 6:25 PM

2019-07-02T18:25:33-04:00

Quit bitching. Nobody cares about your hurt feelings.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2019 11:12 PM

2019-07-02T23:12:10-04:00

If you told me that you'll move when you need to, I probably would remind you that you need to because I gave you a lawful order in the course of exercising my general military authority. Sure, you could complain about an NCO to the chain of command, but you should be prepared to have to answer for an insubordinate comment. Check Article 91 before you fight that battle. Best of luck.

Response by MSG Greg Kelly made Jul 3 at 2019 7:23 AM

2019-07-03T07:23:31-04:00

You know when you join the military you should understand you give up many of your freedoms to defend your countries freedom. One of those freedoms is doing what your told at all times. If an NCO gives you a directive you do it period provided it is legal. You cannot be told to murder, sell drugs, steal, Etc. Now the NCO in question needs to perhaps get some leadership training in the proper care of his people and some training on using ones position for personal gain or profit. I will give you this advice remember the things you learn from everyone that are good and take them for your own. And if you plan on staying in the Army be the best NCO you can know your job, be hard but be fair and never ever use your rank to hurt or take advantage of others. In this issue just learn from it move ON

Response by SSG Brian G. made Jul 3 at 2019 7:27 AM

2019-07-03T07:27:23-04:00

At the end of the day, when the dust settles and the crap has run its course: you were wrong. It's a crap answer that no on of junior grade likes to hear but it is reality. The reason is simple. You are not an NCO yet. You are an E-4 promotable. On the cusp but not there yet. That Sergeant gave you an order. You barked back at him being a smart ass, whether it was your intent or not. You then ruffled his feathers and he was well within his rank and right to bark back and leave no question it was an order and to move out smartly. In the military, with lawful orders, such as this, you opinion, your feels etc are irrelevant. You don't know what that NCO knows. He could have been told it was going to be a packed ride and was being proactive about it. Things change. You got on his radar.

Likewise the SSG gave you a lawful order, whether you liked or agreed with it or not. Them talking trash was really not even crossing the line as it was a verbal smoke session.

You can take it up with someone higher up but here is the rub. They did nothing wrong and if you complain, if that Sergeant wants to be a dick about it, he can jam you up. You technically disobeyed a lawful order and disrespected an NCO. I have seen people lose rank for less, then your (P) status is chucked.

This is one of those situations that you just grit your teeth, keep your tongue and opinion to yourself, follow orders and hope that either he gets PCS orders or you do and drive on. This is not the hill you really want to die on today or any other.

Response by MSG Gary Eckert made Jul 3 at 2019 8:19 AM

2019-07-03T08:19:10-04:00

This reminded me of a Military Justice class I attended when I was on active duty. The instructor asked which was a lawful order..."Would you please go down to the motor pool? or Go down to the f....ing motor pool. Trick question, both were lawful orders. A supervisor asking to you do something or adding a curse word to an otherwise lawful order didn't change the lawfulness of the order. If you understood you were being told to go to the motor pool and you didn't go, you have disobeyed an order. The Sergeant's actions as you describe them were not professional. You disobeyed an order and you could have prevented the entire situation if you had just moved out smartly when told.

Response by TSgt Mike Pastelok made Jul 3 at 2019 8:27 AM

2019-07-03T08:27:11-04:00

I would have just moved. In the service you do have to watch what you say not like the civilian world. I would forget about it and move on with your career.

Response by CW3 Michael Bodnar made Jul 3 at 2019 8:51 AM

2019-07-03T08:51:12-04:00

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member First of all, never question an NCO in front of the other troops like that - my opinion. When you you’re told to do something, just do it no matter how trivial it may seem. Even if the NCO is dead wrong on an issue, ask to speak with them privately. Politely ask your question but be prepared to not have it go your way. If it doesn’t, go about your day and think nothing of it. As a SPC, your job is not to ask why or question orders from leadership. Your job is to react to directions handed down to you by that same leadership. In this instance, you were both wrong. The NCO should’ve been more professional and you could’ve as well. When you become an NCO, remember situations like this and use that as an example of what not to do. As far as taking this incident up with leadership above him, I wouldn’t recommend it. This is not something your senior leadership needs to be concerned with. Your 1SG will likely tell you to get out of their face with such nonsense.
When I was a Marine many years ago, I was told when I became an NCO that I no longer have friends that are not NCO’s. That really hit me hard because I now had to break ties with many Marines I was close with on a professional level. I was now in charge of their well-being and I had to ensure they knew their jobs and could perform with little-to-no guidance. I was the one counseling and developing them to become potential NCO’s one day.

Response by 1stLt Jon Finstad made Jul 3 at 2019 11:41 AM

2019-07-03T11:41:18-04:00

How about don't be a wiener and do what you're told, eh?

Response by SCPO Jason McLaughlin made Jul 3 at 2019 12:45 PM

2019-07-03T12:45:54-04:00

Sounds like you need to fill out a DA FORM IMT WF1.

Response by LTC Warren Miller made Jul 3 at 2019 2:15 PM

2019-07-03T14:15:52-04:00

Two axioms I try to live by:
Fight the battles you can win.
Fight the battles worth fighting.

Dude - I think you’re 0-for2 here. Chalk it up as a lesson learned and move on. I’ve learned I always prefer a bruised ego over flesh being forcibly ripped from my 4th Point of Contact.

Response by SPC Glenn Simmons made Jul 3 at 2019 11:17 PM

2019-07-03T23:17:24-04:00

Drop it your not a child

Response by SPC Glenn Simmons made Jul 4 at 2019 4:43 PM

2019-07-04T16:43:04-04:00

Let it go not that big of a deal

Response by SGT Chris Stephens made Jul 5 at 2019 1:22 AM

2019-07-05T01:22:29-04:00

In certain aspects, rank does have its privileges. If it was between the SSG doubling up and you doubling up, then I would've done the exact same thing with the exception of talking crap about you. However, are you saying you've never talked crap about someone? Or do you just do it when they're not listening or around? You instigated the situation by saying you'll move when you need to.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2019 4:34 PM

2019-07-12T16:34:23-04:00

Frankly, it sounds like you’re a bit of a jerk. When I was a PFC, if a staff sergeant told me to move, I moved. Giving attitude is typically a losing proposition.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 15 at 2019 7:52 PM

2019-07-15T19:52:27-04:00

I've found that it's most wise to pick your battles in the military. Unfortunately, when someone above you asks you to do something, it's generally wise to comply, even if it doesn't make sense to you. Unless it's an "unlawful order", it's unlikely to go very far. That said, what can (and probably WILL) go far, is the miserable existence said higher up will surely cause for you. Unless it's serious, always try paddling upstream!

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2019 8:29 AM

2019-08-05T08:29:11-04:00

This doesn’t have to even be debated. I’m going to answer your question right now. In the future if an NCO ever gives a directive about “doubling up” on the bus you know what you say?

“ROGER!” Lol

If 15 minutes later the bus isn’t full then spread out.

Response by SGT Dan Keeler made Aug 8 at 2019 5:28 AM

2019-08-08T05:28:27-04:00

If a SPC told me "I'll move when I need to," he'd be lucky to have a seat on the bus. An NCO gives a lawful order, you follow it. Period. You were wrong. Him not liking you may stem from these sort of responses. That being said, the SGT and the SSG should not have been running their mouths, either.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2019 8:49 AM

2019-08-09T08:49:23-04:00

You were both wrong but your initial response to him, if done to me, would have had you jacked up heavily. I would have broken you or died trying. You don't talk that way to a senior NCO. You cannot expect respect if you don't give it. The last time someone questioned me rudely, he paid dearly. Just sayin.

Response by SPC Kyle Olson made Aug 15 at 2019 9:37 AM

2019-08-15T09:37:40-04:00

You're an idiot.

Response by SP5 Charles Gould made Aug 19 at 2019 10:37 AM

2019-08-19T10:37:52-04:00

Kid, you joined the ARMY, not a college fraternity! The express purpose of an ARMY is to kill people and blow shit up, which we do better than every other country on earth. You may play a musical instrument, but your BASIC training was with a rifle, not a Tuba. You could be called at any time to pick-up arms and fight alongside others in your unit. Music stops when the shooting starts.
In that situation, a split second of hesitation to obey an order could cost you, or others their lives. I fought in the deepest jungles abd swamps in Vietnam with a five man Recon Team. ANY of those guys could have yelled a direction to me, and it would be executed immediately without a second thought - and I was the Team Leader! I trusted the skills, eyes and ears of my team.
"But I'm a Musician, not a combat infantryman!" Wrong. You are a SOLDIER first! If a senior NCO tells you to get off the bus, strip to your skivvies, and run behind it carrying your footlocker over your head while singing the National Anthem - you do it immediately! If he says "jump", then your correct response should not only be "How high, Sgt?", but also "And when should I come down?"
I wouldn't last two days in today's Army. Even with all the deployments in the last decades, it seems to have gone soft. I think every single SOLDIER needs a turn in a front line combat unit first - experience the military's soul, and only then get to be a musician, writer, computer jockey, or fly a desk. Make the Army a real fighting force first! There are NO feelings in real combat. Just those who survive, and thise who die. Obey your seniors. Or those with more experience than you. As Gen Patton once opined, "Make the other poor bastard die for his country!"
Be a SOLDIER first!
<rant over>

Response by SGM Patrick Kirby made Aug 30 at 2019 9:19 PM

2019-08-30T21:19:18-04:00

You were off base! Also the pettiness of the NCO’s were also off based. Yet, should you continue to challenge lawful direction (regardless of your opinion) your in for a very hard time. Every NCO has also been in your shoes. Think! You seem very capable.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2019 11:57 AM

2019-09-13T11:57:14-04:00

I would let it go. It isn't worth the fight. I wouldn't have said anything and just followed his orders even if he was wrong. Sometimes when you get on the wrong side of someone you will stay there even if you never intended it.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Sep 13 at 2019 12:38 PM

2019-09-13T12:38:15-04:00

As a Marine NCO, if It old someone to move, I expected them to move, not negotiate with me, which is essentially what you tried with your "I will move when I need to" comment. In other words, you were told to move, you said no. That is insubordinate, period.

If you were asking a clarifying question like "where would you like me to move to" then there would have been no issue. Perhaps as a musician you are not expected to follow orders when they are given. That orders are open for debate/discussion/negotiation. I would suggest you drop it, they have likely forgotten about it. You push it and it will not serve you well.

Response by SSG Roland Shelton made Sep 13 at 2019 1:10 PM

2019-09-13T13:10:45-04:00

Probably a little bit of wrong on both sides. A sergeant jerk has no less authority then a sergeant good. Remember his actions and when you put on stripes you'll do better. Add chalk it up to a lesson and move on.

Response by SPC Casey Ashfield made Sep 13 at 2019 6:31 PM

2019-09-13T18:31:32-04:00

Some NCOs have a very wide berth of what counts for "insubordination." Use it as a learning experience to shape your own leadership style. You could take it up with your chain of command if you felt wronged, but remember the oldest military adage there is "shit rolls downhill."