Disagree or Agree; Counseled Soldier checking Disagree. When is it appropriate?

2014-09-18T20:19:24-04:00

Ok, here is the age old question that I am 99.9% sure I know the answer to but am looking to be proven wrong since IG has taken it upon themselves to teach an individual something completely opposite of what I've researched and seen with my own two eyes.
On a counseling form during the session closing, it clearly states "The leader summarizes the key points of the session and checks if the subordinate understands the plan of action. The subordinate agrees/disagrees and provides remarks if appropriate".
This by my powers of deduction tells me that I reiterate everything we talked about, and ask him if he understands his plan of action. I've searched through 6-22, and through a trove of other FM's just to make sure I didn't miss anything, literally over an hour and a half of scouring, to no avail. Apparently IG here has access to some hidden manual or my research skills are seriously lacking, because according to them if the Soldier doesn't agree with ANY part of the counseling such as they were or weren't being disrespectful then they in all their rights may disagree.
What I'm looking for here isn't the "Well this is what I've been taught" or "This is the way I've done it" but a cited reference. Nothing makes me want to lose my composure more than when a Soldier attempting to get themselves out of trouble after clearly violating regulations checks that lovely disagree box and writes in Kindergarten print how I'm full of it. I appreciate any responses.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2014 8:32 PM

2014-09-18T20:32:26-04:00

1SG Private RallyPoint Member, I don't have a reference to cite to you, but I believe that "disagree" checkbox does not invalidate the counseling. The Soldier can disagree all day long ... he/she may still very well be "in trouble."

Response by COL Randall C. made Sep 18 at 2014 9:05 PM

2014-09-18T21:05:17-04:00

1SG Private RallyPoint Member, the IG is correct. If a soldier disagrees with what was stated, it is his right to tell 'his side of the story'. As CW5 Private RallyPoint Member pointed out, this doesn't invalidate the counseling and the soldier can disagree all day long ... it doesn't really amount to much.

However, it does lay out additional actions you may want to take to reinforce the reasons you gave the (negative) counseling statement. For instance, if PFC Snuffy disagrees with the statement you just gave him for being disrespectful, maybe there were other individuals around. If so, a quick memo from (or referencing those) individuals will quickly put that to bed.

If the soldier disagrees with the statement, then invite them to prepare the written rebuttal along with evidence showing why they disagree. If they don't do anything, then take the advice from CSM(ret) Gerecht and write in the following:

- Soldier disagreed with the counseling and refused the opportunity to prepare a written statement.
- Soldier was informed that his disagreement will not prevent the execution of the plan of action and the information discussed during this counseling session.

Is there some reason you expect the Army and your leadership to take the soldier's word over yours? Absent of any counter-indications, the Army will always tend to defer to the story told by the leader than the story told by the subordinate.

I've had to play with the "won't sign the statement" and the "disagrees with statement" a few times over the years. I wholeheartedly encourage the soldier to present any facts and such to back up their version of the events. Who knows, maybe I was wrong in my interpretation. More likely, they are just whining and looking for a way out. A check on the disagrees followed by the above two statements usually makes it pretty clear to others what is going on.

Response by SSG(P) Auston Terry made Sep 18 at 2014 10:38 PM

2014-09-18T22:38:25-04:00

A soldier may always disagree and provide comments, I frequently do so myself and in fact encourage my subordinates to do so. How can I expect my junior leaders to be assertive and do the right thing if they won't stick up for themselves?

Thier agreement or disagreement with the counseling and/or POA is really just to complete the record, and that is how I use that section as the counseled and counselor. If you refer back to FM 22-101 Appendix D p.97 you will see at the bottom of the form it says, "Any comments the counseled soldiers desires to include in writing upon conclusion of the counseling session." It makes no mention of whether the soldiers agree or disagrees. In FM 22-100 from 1999 if you go to Appendix C you can note that the last example counseling is a disagree from the counseled soldier and refers you back into the appendix but makes no guidelines on what is and is not appropriate in that block.

In sum the fact that a soldier disagrees with a counseling or the plan of action really doesn't matter. 4856's and counseling memos record facts.

I hope that helps

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 19 at 2014 7:59 AM

2014-09-19T07:59:17-04:00

All, the jist of the question was to mainly spark a debate and see if anyone could dig a regulation up where it specifically states when a Soldier should agree or disagree. As you all well know everything is very specific and explained how to fill out in regulations when referring to NCOER's, filling out other forms, etc. This however is not. As far as the Soldier checking disagree I agree that it really doesn't weigh too heavily on the reason or facts in the counseling, if it is a just counseling statement.
In my experience when a Soldier is caught red handed doing something they shouldn't have and they know that there is going to be non-judicial punishment, they look for any out and feel that checking that disagree box will save them.
LTC Ludworth, in regards to the IG being correct, do you have a reference to that source, or do you feel that they are interpreting the regulation that way?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2015 11:31 AM

2015-04-29T11:31:33-04:00

Bottom line up front is that the box is there for a reason if a Soldier chooses to use it that is there right. It does not invalidate the counseling or was put as the plan of action. If it is something that will be used for an Article 15 it is up to the disciplinary authority to figure out what really happened. If you are doing the right thing as a leader there will be know worries on what the decision will be. You should always listen though when a Soldier disagrees cause sometimes things are not as they seem and the annoyance and behavior of a Soldier can sometimes cloud your better judgement.

Response by SGT Justin Lamb made Apr 29 at 2015 11:43 AM

2015-04-29T11:43:34-04:00

SFC,
I have no AR to back this up but I've wondered this also when I was an NCO. I had one senior NCO tell me at one time if ever you don't agree with the 4856 the click the disagree box. Later feb the line another senior NCO told me when clicking the agree box it ment you were agreeing to all of your PII bein correct on the top of the first page.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2015 2:00 PM

2015-04-29T14:00:18-04:00

Two sides to every story. The way they said it "could have" been misconstrued. Soldier doesn't have to agree. My suggestion: use call logs for any phone calls, texts messages, fb messages sent to any of your Soldiers (doesn't matter what it's for). FB has that handy little piece that says if an individual reads the message. Send Private messages through FB for drill attendance. Print these (regardless if they are read or not) for your records. Anything that gets mailed to Soldiers (certified/ return receipt). Keep a copy of what was mailed, an affidavit stating what you mailed (can be done for things hand delivered as well), and the other documentation for what was mailed. Keep it all together. Email the Soldiers (more documentation that has date/time and what was said. Specifically for a case where they are disrespectful, have whoever was around and heard/saw the actions (have them do a memo to document it.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2015 12:52 PM

2015-11-06T12:52:44-05:00

Don't sweat it if a Soldier checks the block. Make sure your plan of action has a follow up plan and close the loop in the last block of the form.

Response by CW3 Susan Burkholder made Jul 3 at 2017 1:38 PM

2017-07-03T13:38:39-04:00

When you say "I've searched through 6-22" are you referring to ATP 6-22.1? I do believe the answer is in there!
But, first let me advise you as I can not resist. The DA 4856 is not the end all to the specific event (that would be UCMJ) that required you to counsel the soldier. It does not resolve anything for that matter. And that - I think- is where you are getting stuck. The counseling form is merely a tool to use to get the desired behavior. It is a document that is merely a supporting role.

Perhaps what the IG is referring to is here in the ATP:
Ch. 2, 2-23 (3d bullet): "Discuss the suspected resistance openly with the subordinate and respect his or her response."
"Respect his response" bears repeating. In the Army, counseling is an almost daily requirement. In a perfect world every subordinate would always agree with your counseling eh? and the matter is resolved. But, Ch. 2, 2-24 states that the 4856 is a four step process. The key step is the 4th bullet: "Follow-up"

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2019 12:26 PM

2019-05-03T12:26:02-04:00

So I understand and agree that a soldiers has his/her right but where do you go from there? He/she does he/shes part and provides a statement. Do I just wait for them to let's say disrespect or not follow an order again and again they disagree and provide a statement then provide leadership with the counseling and let some legal authority investigate what's going on?

Response by SSG Brian G. made Jun 28 at 2019 8:09 PM

2019-06-28T20:09:40-04:00

You and the IG are BOTH right. You DO reiterate what you have talked about and ask if he understands what you have gone over.

THEN...

The SM gets to either check agree as in they jive 5x5 with your assessment, OR they check disagree in which they do no concur with your assessment. It means nothing in the long haul as the counseling stands.

Then the SM gets to add their comments should they wish to ie telling their side to the situation that you are counseling them on. And yes, they can fully tell you that you are full of it. This is their chance for a rebuttal and you really have no say in what they can and cannot put here.

It's fairly cut and dry and in the regs and on the form.

Response by SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM made Aug 4 at 2019 5:10 PM

2019-08-04T17:10:09-04:00

Disgree

Response by CSM Mark Gerecht made Jan 1 at 2020 3:50 PM

2020-01-01T15:50:47-05:00

1SG Atrchison, I would have to agree with COL Cudworth. It is not about a Soldier trying to get out of something it is about fair treatment. If a senior leader gave you a counseling statement for being disrespectful and yet you were not disrespectful but he ensured you understood the plan of action and the counseling session would you agree with the counseling statement? I would most definitely disagree with any counselling statement that contained information I did not agree with. There is no regulation that covers this issue. The bottom line is why is a leader be upset when a Soldier marks disagree on a counseling statement? The Soldier is simply exercising their right. They could be absolutely out in left field but if they are their disagreement does not change the facts of the matter. If they violated the regulation they violated the regulation. Marking disagree does not change that.

For what its worth here are a few post I made on Asktop.net about the issue:

http://asktop.net/q-and-a/what-does-it-mean-when-a-soldier-marks-disagree-on-a-counseling-statement/?all=1

what-does-it-mean-when-a-soldier-marks-disagree-on-a-counseling-statement

You are disagreeing with anything that is incorrect on the counseling statement: Content, plan of action, leader responsibilities, key points of discussion, or