Disrespected while correcting a Soldier, how would you handle this situation?

2014-11-07T14:58:18-05:00

Ok so there I was at a court-martial asking a Soldier why he was wearing ACUs and not ASUs. He started to catch an attitude, so I told him to go to parade rest. He turned away from me looking at my paralegal, putting his hands in his pockets.

My paralegal tells him that he does not need to be looking at him, but at me, because I was the one addressing him, and that he needs to show respect. As the Soldier continues to stare out at my paralegal with his hands in his pockets, I continue to correct him when a civilian comes out to where I was correcting the Soldier stating that she had work to do and I could "yell" at him some other time.

I was so mind boggled and dumbfounded because said civilian used to be in the military. I'm sorry, but the last time I checked the Soldier was given a direct order by a CPT and myself that the duty uniform for the court-martial was ASUs and an alternate uniform had to be approved by the judge, so I was doing my job by asking him why he was in the wrong uniform and then correcting him when he began to disrespect me.

I felt so disrespected I just walked away and sat in a room to cool off.

How would you have handled the situation?

Response by SGT Richard H. made Nov 7 at 2014 3:03 PM

2014-11-07T15:03:30-05:00

He has probably just given up and doesn't care if he's being court martialed. Probably at this point, there isn't much you CAN do, short of stacking on more charges.

If he's not the one being court martialed...well...then he's probably going to get a look at his future while he's there.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Nov 7 at 2014 3:07 PM

2014-11-07T15:07:22-05:00

I'd propably need legal representation.

Response by SFC Melker Johansson made Nov 7 at 2014 3:11 PM

2014-11-07T15:11:09-05:00

Where you inside the courthouse? If you all were getting loud I can understand why the civilian did ask you all to be quiet. I would probably have asked you all to quiet down myself if you were disturbing the people working in the building. The best option would probably have been to take the offending Soldier outside for a verbal counseling before sending him back to his quarters to get the correct uniform.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Nov 7 at 2014 3:26 PM

2014-11-07T15:26:39-05:00

Without knowing the specific details of your position and the relationship of your position to the soldier out of uniform and that of the civilian, it is hard to definitively say what you should have done. However, assuming that you acted in a professional manner in correcting the soldier and he copped an attitude, I think you were certainly in your right to carry out the correction to a logical conclusion, without interference of the civilian. As such, I probably would have informed the civilian that this was a "military matter' and that she need not be involved. I then would have carried on with the correction, possibly moving it outside or another close-by location.

If, on the other hand, none of that worked, I would report the incident to my chain of command, with the expectation that they would follow-up with the proper personnel to ensure it did not happen again. I assure you that if one of my soldiers/NCOs/officers informed me of a situation like that, I would take appropriate action.

I have never been one to back down or retreat, if I was right, but discretion must always be exercised. There is a time and place for everything and that may not have been the right time and place to prove a point, even if you are right, but it certainly does not mean that you forfeit your right to follow-up at a later time and place.

I applaud you for not simply ignoring a violation you noticed, as well as "cooling down" rather than going off. I would certainly follow-up, however. It sounds like a soldier and a civilian need some counseling by their supervisory chain.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2014 3:35 PM

2014-11-07T15:35:10-05:00

And people wonder why there were "paint locker attitude adjustments"..........

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2014 3:58 PM

2014-11-07T15:58:08-05:00

I think soldiers today are becoming far more complacent in their duties to uphold the standards. I've seen it on numerous occasions of soldiers not standing at parade rest, disrespecting superiors, and not following orders. Especially reservists, are by far the worst culprits. Coming off of active duty in the reserves, I was bewildered at what I was witnessing. Not standing at parade rest, back talking, not upholding motor pool safety. I had to tell my motor sgt back then an E-4, he needed a ground guide. He told me "No one in the reserves cares". Point is we all have standards to uphold.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Nov 7 at 2014 4:21 PM

2014-11-07T16:21:47-05:00

I think the 'I was at a court-martial' started us on the path to an answer?

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2014 6:09 PM

2014-11-07T18:09:35-05:00

SFC Private RallyPoint Member, kudos to you for maintaining control. Like others, I find this hard to believe/fathom.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2014 6:13 PM

2014-11-07T18:13:01-05:00

Is beating him like a piñata out of the question???

Response by PFC Alexander Coolidge made Nov 7 at 2014 6:25 PM

2014-11-07T18:25:11-05:00

Honestly Ssg, I probably would of carried on addressing the soldier, regardless of the civilian. Or went and found whoever was in charge of this scum, and told them what's up, and requested permission to smoke the disrespectful runt.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2014 6:41 PM

2014-11-07T18:41:03-05:00

Maybe some bread and water time would shape him up. As for the civilian.. None of their business.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2014 8:08 PM

2014-11-07T20:08:58-05:00

1LT Private RallyPoint Member is my enforcer......

In reality I would have told the civilian to back off (as I would be in a heated mood) and that when the "soldier" was ready to properly address me and answer the question then we could continue. Until then, or until the Judge states otherwise, it was up to the "soldier" when we were to begin.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Nov 8 at 2014 3:31 PM

2014-11-08T15:31:58-05:00

SFC Private RallyPoint Member, I'm wondering why you allowed the Soldier to play reindeer games with you....If he was out of uniform, tell him to leave and come back in the right uniform - if he didn't want to leave (it's not like the Soldier has a choice), I'd ask the bailiff to ensure the court room was prepared for the courts martial.....the bailiff is there to maintain the good order and discipline and I am quite sure the bailiff would be more than happy to quell the disturbance

Response by SFC Peter Cyprian made Nov 30 at 2014 1:59 AM

2014-11-30T01:59:40-05:00

I would have told the civilian to mind their business while you minded yours- yours being the on-the-spot correction of a disrespectful troop. Now me being me, it would have been a VERY direct "do not interfere with the business of Soldiers and I will discuss this with you after I am finished here". Anything other than immediate compliance and I would have told the CPT to please handle the person attempting to obstruct me from my duties as a NCO. At any rate, I would most assuredly snatch that civilian up at another time and have a "come to Jesus" with them about proper protocol and how the military does and DOES NOT work.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 2:02 AM

2014-11-30T02:02:08-05:00

SSG,
I would have added that to his rap sheet, I hope he had the book thrown at him. Don't let it get you down and I wouldn't even think twice about the soldier that's why he was their in the first place. You did the right thing and for the Civilian you did a better job than me cause I would have lit them up too.
V/r
1SG

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 2:20 AM

2014-11-30T02:20:05-05:00

You handled yourself professionally by walking away to give yourself time to cool down. I have been in this same position before myself.

In response to the disrespectful Soldier, I'd have gladly let him know I'm not the one to disrespect. Seeing as how he made the cognitive choice NOT to listen to protocol, it would only be too easy to write him up (yet again, I'm assuming from the situation he's already gotten himself into) and discipline him that way. I only ask a Soldier to do something once, then I tell them to....if they still refuse to listen, I let my hands and keyboard write up a 4856 to go on record and have it in black and white. What I won't EVER do is argue with a Soldier.

As for the civilian, I'd have kindly remind her (because she used to wear the uniform) that I am doing my duty as an NCO to enforce good order and discipline when it comes to Soldiers wanting to get outta line. As for her doing her job, she can continue doing it because me disciplining a Soldier shouldn't keep her from doing what she's supposed to do (if it does, then she may wanna consider working somewhere else if NCOs disciplining Soldiers easily distracts her). If she wants to take it to that place, I'd be more than happy to step outside and discuss with her the parameters of my job and to let her know that the tone she decided to use with me won't be tolerated.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 1:43 PM

2014-11-30T13:43:32-05:00

Assault. Get me a lawyer. Actually no I'll plead guilty and love every minute of it.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 6:56 PM

2014-11-30T18:56:03-05:00

You did your duty as an NCO in making the on the spot correction, and gathering information on why he was out of uniform. The soldier obviously did not give a damn. In my opinion, you did your part and handle yourself appropriately being in the location that you were.

Now, the civilian was in the wrong for being disrespectful in front of a junior soldier.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 8:38 PM

2014-11-30T20:38:25-05:00

You should have told the civilian to stay in their lane. The civilian is not in the military so what he or she had to say was irrelevant.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 2:33 PM

2014-12-01T14:33:27-05:00

As a Paralegal myself, I see this all too often. If you're working in military justice you are dealing with Soldiers that are usually already in some sort of trouble. Most of these "Soldiers" are in the process of nonjudicial punishment, court-martial, or administrative separation. That means that these individuals don't care a lot about their professionalism.

As for a uniform for the trial, if you were dealing with the "accused" then he/she has the right to ask the judge to allow the duty uniform instead of ASU's during the trial.

Response by PO2 Corey Ferretti made Dec 1 at 2014 5:40 PM

2014-12-01T17:40:12-05:00

Well you handled it appropriately had you lost it on the Civilian you would be standing before your Officer explaining your actions. Have you addressed the Civilian since this incident or have them addressed by there superior because im pretty sure if a soldier is being corrected for a flagrant show of disrespect they are not to intervene.

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Dec 19 at 2014 6:50 PM

2014-12-19T18:50:36-05:00

I think a 'accidental' elbow to the bridge of his nose would of been a good start. "Oh thank you for breaking my fall...sorry about your face"...

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Dec 19 at 2014 10:11 PM

2014-12-19T22:11:15-05:00

SFC Private RallyPoint Member A poignant Staff Judge Advocate I worked with was fond of saying "stupid isn't against the law, but if you look hard enough you will find something that is." Perhaps this Soldier needs a charge sheet. Direct order from a superior Commissioned Officer to be in the duty uniform. Questioned by a more senior NCO and then violates a regulatory requirement when being addressed by a more senior NCO. It is time for this Soldier to pay for his poor judgment, lack of respect, and inability to follow orders. Some Soldiers cannot be adjusted regardless of how hard you try. I would suggest talking to his NCO support channel to see if he is typically a problem child, and then take action.

Oh yes, and SFC Private RallyPoint Member thank you for all you do as a Special Victim NCO.

Response by SGM (R) Antonio Brown made Dec 20 at 2014 7:06 PM

2014-12-20T19:06:14-05:00

SSG McLamb, good job taking a breather. I would document the entire incident with statements from witnesses and move to have a Article 15 initiated on the Soldier. Now for the civilian. I would let her know that it is not her place to interfere with NCO correcting the disrespectful behavior of a Soldier and then I would recommend that she should return to her office.

Response by CSM David Heidke made Dec 23 at 2014 8:40 AM

2014-12-23T08:40:41-05:00

If I were present when a civilian interfered with the lawful duties of an NCO making a uniform correction, I would have gone Drill Sergeant on her.

That is simply not ok.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2015 1:42 PM

2015-01-23T13:42:34-05:00

How loud was the conversation? Because you could have dragged this soldier to a more private area and continued your conversation there.

Response by PVT Dominique Stewart made Jan 23 at 2015 1:44 PM

2015-01-23T13:44:19-05:00

I would have simply snapped to parade rest and answered you in correct fashion. Better yet, I would have shown up in proper uniform in the first place, SSG. That soldier was tore up. And I'm assuming his first line supervisor was probably 8up too

Response by SPC Lukas Jones made Jan 23 at 2015 7:31 PM

2015-01-23T19:31:44-05:00

I would start be noting the names of the involved individuals and asking the soldier to provide you with his unit and section. Civilian employees do have a different chain of command so asking her the nane of her supervisor is appropriate. Then contacting those supervisors and informing them of the incident and asking them to take appropriate action. As the soldier was enlisted and you did outrank him, locking him up was right, however, if he failed to boat a direct and lawful order (and in the presence of an officer) he should receive an article 15 for his actions. It may also be that he was not there on official business and therefore was not in a uniform befitting court.

Response by SPC David Bosquez made Jan 28 at 2015 1:41 PM

2015-01-28T13:41:00-05:00

It all depends on the manner of your correcting and the personality of said civilian. If that civilian isnt easily pushed to be confrontational, I would have apologized and taken the soldier somewhere else to handle them. If that civilian is just whiny and would complain about noise if someone lightly coughed, I would have probably still walked away with the soldier, then came back to handle that incident.

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made Jan 28 at 2015 1:56 PM

2015-01-28T13:56:33-05:00

I believe it is simple. You are an NCO, correct the Soldier. I assume he is a witness there for as a former paralegal it is the unit's responsibility to ensure that the Soldier is in the right uniform. Not sure you have to yell to achieve the correction, but corrective training that fits the act should work, and if not that will be another order they fail to follow and could be used for nonjudicial or judicial punishment. I would recommend that you have the Soldier report at various times to the staff duty in different uniforms, and/or teach a class on AR670-1. Correcting a Soldier is your job, and so is training. Train the crap out of the Soldier.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2015 2:00 PM

2015-01-28T14:00:54-05:00

It sounds like it didn't matter who was giving the order to that soldier. At that point it's insubordination and disobedience to a direct order.

Main thing is to maintain your calm demeanor and focus on winning the war, not the battle. Get the troop's name, etc., and write them up. And an MP or two to clap on irons is always a motivator.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2015 8:31 PM

2015-02-04T20:31:25-05:00

Come to 30th AG at fort benning lol. This has happened to me on multiple occasions in the last year. Best thing to do is be firm with the civilian in front of the soldier, speak offline, and always remember, everyone answers to someone. This will help maintain the power base in front of your soldier and keep it from turning into a shouting match. If the civilian refuses to speak offline, go nuclear and go above their head. Some civilians need to be reminded that they can be fired.

Response by TSgt Denise Moody made Dec 4 at 2016 2:03 PM

2016-12-04T14:03:43-05:00

You probably handled it the best way. I probably would have told him to straighten up and answer my question or the next court martial would be his.

Response by CPL Anthony Slaughter made Dec 4 at 2016 3:17 PM

2016-12-04T15:17:11-05:00

Back in the 82nd the E4's of that Soldier's Platoon would've paid him a little visit after duty hours and 'encouraged' him to show the proper respect toward NCO's. PVT Snuffy probably wanted nothing more than to see you blow up, so points for taking a minute to cool down.

Response by Sgt Joseph Baker made Dec 4 at 2016 4:02 PM

2016-12-04T16:02:24-05:00

I probably wouldn't have cooled off, put added new charges to his list of woes. Surely it might help him be relieved of having to report to anyone.

Response by Sgt Joseph Baker made Dec 4 at 2016 4:17 PM

2016-12-04T16:17:00-05:00

I had my own walk-of-shame as a young LCpl. I got off a midnight-to-4 line watch shift on Christmas morning on sunny Whidbey Island, WA. Ok, not so sunny, actually very windy and very cold. For the rest of the day I was assigned as 7th supernut, to hang out in the barracks. But, I made the unwise mental calculation that since I was 7th, the surely wouldn't miss me for a few hours and I could drive home and spend some time with wife and kids and come back. Well, it seems some sailor skipped his linewatch, and likewise the 1st supernut was gone too, which of course led to a muster of everyone, which I missed along with three sailors. So, had to face Captains mast with the Commander of my FRAMP squadron. Little different experience than the guy described in the court-martial story. Somewhat humorous, and I bet there are a few vets here who had similar experiences. So I had to see the XO first. I am instructed to enter when my name is called, march to his desk and report, and to not look at him but stare at telephone pole out his window. Everything goes as described. I admit my transgression and I am ordered to next report to the CO. Again told to enter, march up to his podium with my toes touching the base of the podium and report. I do as instructed, and seeing that same telephone pole outside his window as well, I naturally refer back to prior experience and stare at that pole. Here I am, 5' 4" Marine squared off with this 6'+ Navy Commander, who also has the advantage of his podium giving him about another 4" of elevation, and he begins to speak in a stern voice. He doesn't even finish his first sentence when he stops, leans towering over my head, yells quite loudly down on me, "You want to look at me when I am talking to you Marine?!!!!" As a tiny stream of urine is involuntarily released down my leg (figuratively) and any ideas of what I might say to him to get me leniency for my skipping duty for a few hours Christmas morning immediately falling away from my memory; all I could say was YES SIR! and stare into his glare as he hands down his punishment, really a slap on the wrist. What was forever seared into my consciousness though was I was not going to let this man down again.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2016 7:35 PM

2016-12-04T19:35:46-05:00

It's the bailiff role to ensure all present are in proper attire. Should have a word with them.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2016 8:07 PM

2016-12-04T20:07:40-05:00

Just curious how the soldier got all the way from his barracks or quarters to the site of the court-martial with out anyone inspecting his uniform. I understand that the CPT gave a direct and lawful order, but who was responsible for supervising the solider to ensure they were at the right place and time in correct uniform. Sorry if this seem a bit politically incorrect, but sounds like a supervision and leadership problem from the ground up.

Response by SPC Matt Davidson made Dec 4 at 2016 9:46 PM

2016-12-04T21:46:46-05:00

throat punch, choke slam.

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Dec 4 at 2016 9:57 PM

2016-12-04T21:57:27-05:00

I was a SFC at a Training Center, I was placed in a 1SG slot, while the pending 1SG attended the 1SG Course in Texas. I placed a soldier on the duty roster, and soon after received a call that the soldier was exempt from duty because he worked for the PAO..The person calling was a civilian. I asked her if the soldier had an NCO who was his supervisor, she said Yes!, I said tell his supervisor to call me, as I would not discuss military issues with a civilian. Stated a Sh*t storm. She called the General's Aide, and told him that I told her I hated civilians. The Aide came to my office yelling that the civilian told him I hated civilians. I told him, that is not true, I married a civilian and have civilian Children, What I told her was, " I will not discuss military issues with a civilian" Easily misinterpreted :-)

Response by SSG Matthew Koehler made Dec 5 at 2016 4:32 AM

2016-12-05T04:32:54-05:00

Hmm. Sounds like a courtesy patrol scenario...

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Dec 5 at 2016 11:58 AM

2016-12-05T11:58:28-05:00

I see the original post is pretty old. SFC Private RallyPoint Member, what finally happened to the soldier who showed up in the incorrect uniform?

I hope he was counseled and booted out of the Army. As for the Air Force Civilian, she should have known better than to stick her nose into military business. Hope her supervisor set her straight.

Response by TSgt Julie Miller made Apr 28 at 2017 11:38 AM

2017-04-28T11:38:20-04:00

That's a good question and one that begs a review of where the military has gone in 20 yrs. I can tell you that in my days as an Airman up through my retirement I saw way too many changes in military protocol... Time outs in basic, airmen telling NCO's that they are smarter and know more about the job... telling us that the rules are stupid and should be changed... Challenges to dress and appearance standards, increases in failures to go, and yet when we older NCO's tried to maintain good order and discipline we are the ones told to back off.

I am thinking that this individual was already on their way out the door and was going to soon find getting a real job in the real world just as tough, since many states now have an employment at will law, meaning an employer doesn't have to give a reason to let an employee go as long as it's not discrimination based.

I'm sure you did what you could and that lawyer, prior military, should have already spoken with her client about his attire for the day.

Response by SGT Adam Turner made Apr 28 at 2017 11:40 AM

2017-04-28T11:40:23-04:00

I'd get over myself... This Soldier is being Court Martial'd what do you expect?

Response by SFC Joe Rappise made Apr 28 at 2017 2:33 PM

2017-04-28T14:33:16-04:00

i'm to old school...it would have been wall to wall counseling...but this is the new army....

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2017 3:03 PM

2017-04-28T15:03:45-04:00

Was it his court martial? I'd just let nature take its course at that point.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2017 3:27 PM

2017-04-28T15:27:26-04:00

Who gives a fuck? The guy was getting court-martialed already and was surely on his way out.

Response by SrA Jeremy Roy made Apr 28 at 2017 3:40 PM

2017-04-28T15:40:50-04:00

Everyone on your face and push until you die.

Response by SrA Jeremy Roy made Apr 28 at 2017 3:44 PM

2017-04-28T15:44:37-04:00

Then if pushing don't work, fuck it, write him up on another 15. Clearly this member doesn't give a shit about his career. Bury him in paperwork so a BCD or DD are his only options.

Response by SGT Justin Haven made Apr 28 at 2017 3:53 PM

2017-04-28T15:53:08-04:00

In today's sjw politics I feel you are fighting the good fight with your hands tied. At the same time this soldier lost his drive and nothing you do is going to correct that, put him out of yours and his misery put him out swiftly. He is on his way out with that court martial.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2017 3:55 PM

2017-04-28T15:55:25-04:00

After being in the civilian world long enough you realize how absolutely worthless a lot of the military dog and pony show is. You begin to realize that it at all actually hinders work getting done not promotes it. Civilians don't have time for all the military bullshit because in the real world you succeed or fail based on your skills not based on how well you can answer random questions about regulations and dress yourself. So I know where the civilian was coming from.

Response by PO1 Aaron Baltosser made Apr 28 at 2017 4:44 PM

2017-04-28T16:44:43-04:00

The civilian would have been told where to go on the spot quietly, respectfully and escorted out of the area as required. Then I would have been forced to follow through with official in writing reprimand of said civilian with appropriate civilian authorities. As for the Soldier with the same attitude as the inappropriate civilian...I would have done everything possible to make him available to be a worthless civilian instead of a worthless member of the military network. You can't save every member of the military, and the attitude of this one strongly suggests to me he belong in the category of not able to be salvaged.

Response by SGT Larry Johnson made Apr 28 at 2017 4:51 PM

2017-04-28T16:51:11-04:00

Remember old school military? Ask any Vietnam vet!

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2017 4:59 PM

2017-04-28T16:59:07-04:00

Beat said soldier with a sock filled with bars of soap, go gomer pile on his ass

Response by SGT Jim Ramge, MBA made Apr 28 at 2017 5:21 PM

2017-04-28T17:21:45-04:00

As previously stated, obviously a reason the troop was due in court to begin with. I'd let the position of the court handle it with ALL due respect! Contempt of court reigns slightly higher than one would think and the court would probably oblige the CPT for remaining calm, with some time in the brig for the young lad!

Response by PO1 Don Hand made Apr 28 at 2017 6:08 PM

2017-04-28T18:08:07-04:00

A million years ago, I was temporarily as signed to be an escort at a restricted barracks. My basic job was to muster, and keep track of the various working parties the Sailors were assigned to. Usually this consisted of following a group around while half of them smoked and the other half picked up butts.

One day I came in, and there was a Lance Corporal standing in the P-way at parade rest. and all the Chiefs were in the office yelling at each other. I walked in and the Chief yelled at me "That guy out there is YOUR problem... get him checked in, and YOU deal with him, I don't want to hear about him..." So I did. He was a simple AWOL case, he just wanted out of the Marines. During his check in the XO (female) screamed at him ( and me...) about how while in a Naval Facility he would abide by Naval regulation at all times...

Now, this guy, never caused any problems. Was polite, easy going, Always ready, and even held classes on how to "Properly shine boots" Totally good guy by all respects, he just didn't want to be in the Corps any more... No problems. Until the day of his Mast case...

As luck would have it, I had a medical appointment, previously discussed, and was a little late getting back to the barracks. My Chief knew this and assured me it would be okay and if anything happened one of the other escorts would handle it... And when I get back, he starts yelling that this guys mast case was moved up and I had 5 minutes to get him down to the XO's office.

And when I go to get ol' Lance Corporal, he is in Dress White Crackerjacks... Um, WTF? And he's just standing there at parade rest... "Hey, Chief? You might want to come see this..." STFU, I'm busy, just get him down to the XO... "No, really Chief...." "DAMNITGETHIMDOWNTHEREIDONTWANNAHEARANYBULLSHIT..." "Aye Aye Chief..."

I thought the XO was going to explode. I really did. I've seen bad shit happen, and her shitstorm was worse than any thing I've ever seen.

His reasoning? "Ma'am, you gave me a direct order to follow Naval protocol and the Marines are part of the Navy, so I'm in a Naval Uniform..."

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2017 6:35 PM

2017-04-28T18:35:10-04:00

Snatch his punk ass up and drag him to someplace where appropriate counselling can be administered. Administer said counselling with some form of hardwood tool and change his plea to guilty for being a punk with no regard for good order and discipline and let him find a new lawyer to appeal his BCD.

Response by SGT Aaron Hall made Apr 28 at 2017 6:57 PM

2017-04-28T18:57:42-04:00

Proceed with the court martial. If the soldier wants to be an idiot then remember soldier is already getting court martialed and more then likely discharged.

Response by SGM Jerry Kastler made Apr 28 at 2017 7:30 PM

2017-04-28T19:30:06-04:00

Falls under general military authority. Correcting a uniform is everyone's business. As for the civilian, if they interfere with a military issue, they can be removed from post. If they are really stupid about it they can wind up facing a federal charge. Though I must confess the temptation to adjust the soldier's headspace and timing on the spot might have overcome me.

Response by MAJ Jr C made Apr 28 at 2017 7:33 PM

2017-04-28T19:33:04-04:00

Add a few more charges. Stack them as high as he wants.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2017 8:08 PM

2017-04-28T20:08:10-04:00

Old school corrective action would be first to take that "Civilian" out to the back of the CONEX and correct that attitude quickly. Second, I would jack that disrespecting POS up and rip that uniform off his butt. But that was then and in today's world and Military you give them a cupcake and a glass of kool aide and wait till night to get your revenge.

Response by LCpl Darren Wilkens made Apr 28 at 2017 8:14 PM

2017-04-28T20:14:58-04:00

He would have gotten the mess beat out of him.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2017 8:23 PM

2017-04-28T20:23:34-04:00

He's getting court martialed, which most likely means dishonorable discharge, which means he's screwed as is. I'd let it go. He's only screwing himself anyeay

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2017 9:10 PM

2017-04-28T21:10:26-04:00

Assuming you're JAG, the only reason the soldier wore cammies was because he was fat or lazy. ASUs are for his benefit, showing his resume on the ribbons, thus aligning with a jury of his peers.

Either way, as a defense attorney it looks bad on you for a POS to be in the wrong uniform, so I agree with your reaction.

The civilian had no authority over you, or respect for the situation.

Response by LCpl Jeff Moore made Apr 28 at 2017 10:40 PM

2017-04-28T22:40:39-04:00

What was he being court martial for?
Sounds like he a shit bird, and should be kicked out. Would of informed him he was give a lawful order by both a NCO and a Officer, and was in enough yrouble already. Then document it and let him hang himself

Response by LCpl Darrell J. Farley Jr. made Apr 28 at 2017 10:42 PM

2017-04-28T22:42:03-04:00

First off, NO DISRESPECT TO THE CAPT. This is a perfect example of the PUSSIFICATION of our military!!! I was in the Marines in the early 80's, We lived in squad bays, had wall lockers, and foot lockers. Green wool blankets and boots lined under our rack. We shared a room with maybe 30 other guys. We lived, ate, slept in the same place. We traveled in fire teams wherever we went. The culture of our military has been on a continual down hill slide for years. It starts in Recruit Training (Basic/ Boot Camp), candy coating training, dumbing down standards so that we look good for the social experiment that the candyasses in Congress are trying to perform to appease the feminist movement. Equal rights are great, but if you can't perform to the men's standards, to bad so sad!!! The military needs clerks and cooks, just like in the old days, if a male was under performing,hello mess hall, yeah MESS HALL, Dinning Facility sounds like a college campus! So do DORMROOMS! Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, and Airmen Live in a Barracks ( You know that Military Thing) they eat in a Chow/Mess Hall (That Damn Military Thing again), They report for Duty, not go to work ( Again that pesky Military Thing again)When are we going to stop treating these young men and women like College kids and treat them like the Members of the Armed Forces that they are. Get back to training warriors who also are truck drivers, mechanics, etc. Not clerks that go to the range once a year, go to the field maybe twice in four years!!! This Sgt should have been before the Bn C.O. yesterday!!! Treat them like 3rd Graders they will act like the spoiled, entitled babies that got participation trophies just for showing up.

Response by SN Tucker Breton made Apr 28 at 2017 11:23 PM

2017-04-28T23:23:55-04:00

I carried over the same policy I followed as a junior enlisted into the civilian world: "Yessir, No sir, three bags full sir, does the senior enlisted mess need their boots shined again and where do I sign up for extra duty?"
These young bucks attitudes never cease to blow my mind.

Response by CPL Dustin Cain made Apr 28 at 2017 11:25 PM

2017-04-28T23:25:03-04:00

Throat punch

Response by CH (COL) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2017 1:13 AM

2017-04-29T01:13:49-04:00

There are several charges that would have been filed.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2017 3:16 AM

2017-04-29T03:16:58-04:00

Fuck civilians, she needs to stay in her lane. dismiss him for the day or moment and get his chain of responsibility/command in to give him a summarised art15. He was wrong as shit and deliberately disrespected you, disobeyed many lawful orders, etc. A simple counseling or smoke session would be too little.

Response by Maj Sharon Malone made Apr 29 at 2017 3:24 AM

2017-04-29T03:24:34-04:00

I get that you're dumbfounded, but clearly it's time to jack this unit up. Being a Marine, i understand we have a different standard. However, this one seems pretty basic.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2017 4:43 AM

2017-04-29T04:43:51-04:00

Everyone always has a should have, would have story. Lol

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Apr 29 at 2017 9:04 AM

2017-04-29T09:04:28-04:00

I'm neither an attorney nor a SJA, but my initial impression based upon reading the comments is that the presiding Judge still owns the courtroom. You have no authority over the civilian, but the presiding officer does and he/she has authority over all in that court. Bring the situation to the clerks attention and allow the presiding officer to maintain control of the courtroom. As much as I would have loved to grab some civilians by the stacking swivel many times, general military authority is limited when dealing with civilians.
The civilian became the problem when she/he interfered with a military circumstance, divert the civilian to defending themselves before the presiding officer, then return your attention to the soldier.

Response by LtCol Michael Kies made Apr 29 at 2017 9:14 AM

2017-04-29T09:14:11-04:00

Write a complaint to the civilian's supervisor; write a charge sheet for the soldier.

Response by SGT Nathan Wheatley made Apr 29 at 2017 9:32 AM

2017-04-29T09:32:48-04:00

When a troop is that far gone anything you do is useless. He is winning if he makes you that mad. Even though you want to skull $&@? Him Just smile and say okay. The judge will take care of the rest. Being in the military is a mind set and we all bought into it. Some guys just don't and you can't fix it. Put them out and love on with your life

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2017 9:35 AM

2017-04-29T09:35:57-04:00

I believe that SSG Mc Lamb did as good a job as the limitations placed on her allowed her to do, absent putting the soldier in question in both handcuffs and leg restraints to make the point that he's still subject to UCMJ proceedings for his actions, or lack thereof. What I find difficult to fathom about this whole situation is that his CoC didn't have him in the proper uniform to report to the court in the first place, they do, after all, have to be informed of the change to the soldier's "place of duty", the time frame involved, and the proper uniform for the SM to be wearing upon reporting to that place of duty. This SM's entire local CoC needs/needed to have their asses "jacked up" for their failure/s with regard to this SM's failing to comply with orders that they were made aware of in advance.

Response by SSG Marcus Brothers made Apr 29 at 2017 10:33 AM

2017-04-29T10:33:42-04:00

Amber, if this individual was not the accused, who was he?
If he were a witness, I would simply prepare my statement for counsel for both sides as potential impeachment evidence and take the entire incident back to his COC. With regards to the civilian, I would simply remind her of how the military works because she had apparently forgotten. Remember, she USED to be a Captain. You can't tell her off, but she does not enjoy the protections granted to officers under the UCMJ.
If the individual is a bailiff, I would work with the CR and counsel for both sides to schedule and R.C.M. 802 to discuss the merits of a contempt of court hearing. Then, turn him over to the COC.

If that doesn't give you satisfaction, get a table, 30 feet of rope, 2 five-gallon water cans, and a burlap bag.

Response by Cpl Emily Lee made Apr 29 at 2017 11:30 AM

2017-04-29T11:30:25-04:00

I've seen some responses that say "I'd have smoked him, I'd have made him do this or that." This guy had no fucks left to give. He's at a court martial, that should pretty much answer things. There's no reason to get into a power struggle if the person doesn't care about rank, discipline, and respect. You did the right thing by walking away to cool off, no point jeopardizing your career for a scumbag. As for the civilian... again, lots of folks saying they'd "go drill sgt on her, tell her not to interfere," and on and on with a bunch of bs answers. Here's the deal. You think she should have understood what you were doing because she wore the uniform? Ok. How long was she in? What rank was she when she got out? How long had she been out? What kind of office was it? There's a lot of this we don't know about the situation. If she got out, let's say as a Col. from legal, 1) all you dumb asses saying you'd jump her shit, she may have jumped back, or worse, she may have called the cops and said you're making threats. 2) she might have come telling you to take the yelling somewhere else to preempt you getting your ass in a sling with someone else in her office. 3) she may have seen a lot of those disrespect situations, and just been over it, and wanted some quiet so she could make her spreadsheets. Who knows. Civilian office jobs and military counseling and corrections don't seamlessly intersect, two completely different worlds and ways of doing things. I'd say, you need to respect her (and others) workplace just as much as you would like her to respect the need, and your right, to correct a soldier. Either way, as long as you walked away and learned something, you did good.

Response by SPC Kelley McMahan made Apr 29 at 2017 11:49 AM

2017-04-29T11:49:30-04:00

Actually, I would have written a statement as well as having the paralegal write one and amended charges to include insubordination and refusal to obey a direct order. But that's just me.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2017 12:11 PM

2017-04-29T12:11:21-04:00

What was the outcome you were expecting. There comes a time when correcting a soldier will do literally nothing, and this seems like it's one of those times.

It also sounds as if you were making a scene in a courthouse so that may have been the reason the civilian response.

Don't take this the wrong way, but the way I read this is that you were purposely making a scene in an attempt to embarrass the soldier. There are many other ways to get your point across and due to the lack of information provided by you it certainly sounds like what I just stated.

Feel free to flame me, but unless your provide more information, and someone who was present that can verify the story, I'll keep backing this statement. Somehow we all forget that it's innocent until proven guilty, not guilty because someone of higher rank said so.

Response by SGT Colt Marcum made Apr 29 at 2017 1:03 PM

2017-04-29T13:03:08-04:00

Throat stomp engaged

Response by CW2 Fred Baker made Apr 29 at 2017 1:40 PM

2017-04-29T13:40:07-04:00

I would have given him a direct order to, Go back and change uniform and report back to me, now!"

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2017 2:34 PM

2017-04-29T14:34:15-04:00

1. Notify the MPs and have the Soldier detained for disobeying an order and other violations of UCMJ.
2. Notify the Soldier's Chain of Command about the status of the Soldier; I'm sure his chain of command would have no issues adding a few more article violations to his/her current list of violations.
3. Counsel the civilian on his interference of military issues then notify his leadership about what this civilian had said.
4. Do all this with calmness and professionalism, and continue to let the Soldier dig himself into an even deeper hole.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2017 2:41 PM

2017-04-29T14:41:53-04:00

Talk to him/her like they are a human being first off.... Barking orders with someone getting court-martialed obviously isn't gonna work. Use your brain housing group and be more tactful. You are letting your rank define your power with a person who cares nothing of it as far as the civilian is concerned, so again talk to them like they are a human being and you might have gotten a leg up.

Response by MSG James Hughs made Apr 29 at 2017 2:58 PM

2017-04-29T14:58:52-04:00

It is extremely difficult or even impossible to "armchair quarterback" this situation without having been there.... this is your retelling the event ....and it is your perception of events.... that having been said.....there are some points that can be made....
FIRST You were RIGHT..... the problem is how to handle the situation
SECOND I think there was more going on here than just the "wrong uniform".....I think the individual you were correcting "MAY" ? have an issue taking orders / corrective action from a female. Male ego, sadly not an usual situation.
THIRD He had to be corrected but I think you should have remembered "Punish (correct) in private; praise in public" When you "attack'' in public you create a battlefield where it is you against him.... and you can not afford to lose.....so you need to be sure have the power and support to win.... not just rank
FOURTH Technique.....do not know the complete context....but the civilian reference "yelling" ....NEVER raise your voice.... to many it signals loss of control.... a whisper can be far more threatening that a scream.... I might also have started by saying something like...??... " Why have you chosen to disobey the judges order by wearing the wrong uniform?''
FINALLY You have no control over a civilian ..... He was WRONG..... but what do you do about it....?? Possibly I would do something like talking to him in private and saying something like " You are an experienced ex-serviceman and you obviously feel I handled this wrong.....so how would you have handled the situation?" ....I also would have said something like ..."If you were in my place....the trooper disobeyed orders.....disrespected your rank / authority..... would not take correction ....and then I interrupted you and told you in front of him....go yell at him someplace else....HOW WOULD YOU FEEL.....?.... As a veteran I respect,... I sort of expected your help not you making things worse for me...... BTW I would not yell at the civilian...... and trying to get him "disciplined would also be a mistake ..... even if you won the victory would be Pryyrhic

Response by LTC Orlando Illi made Apr 29 at 2017 3:24 PM

2017-04-29T15:24:13-04:00

Suggest you review UCMJ
Article 91: Insubordinate conduct toward warrant officer, NCO, or PO

Response by MAJ Luca Luca made Apr 29 at 2017 3:32 PM

2017-04-29T15:32:08-04:00

Wall to wall counselling.

Response by SGT Sean McKnight made Apr 29 at 2017 5:02 PM

2017-04-29T17:02:45-04:00

Let him stand before the judge in the wrong uniform so as to add contempt of court to the list of charges.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Apr 29 at 2017 5:25 PM

2017-04-29T17:25:23-04:00

Not enough information, who is the Captain?

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2017 5:41 PM

2017-04-29T17:41:26-04:00

91, 134....

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2017 5:44 PM

2017-04-29T17:44:33-04:00

If disrespect was blatant enough to meet the elements in article 91, and soldier was not responding to other measures then it's time for you to detain him as an NCO and contact base police.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2017 6:27 PM

2017-04-29T18:27:13-04:00

I don't know all of the story but what I do know is there is a time and place for correction. On the spot is still between you and the Soldier. You Sir, chose your audience.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Apr 29 at 2017 6:39 PM

2017-04-29T18:39:16-04:00

Seems in the process this soldier set Himself up to have even more rocks thrown into His sinking boat. Well add some more charges and additional action against this soldier, if nothing else it will help demonstrate how unfit He is for military service and help Him out the door. Sounds like someone that won't even do well in the civilian world, there He will just get fired. You didn't state what the court martial was or what level of Court Martial it was for but proceeding beyond Administrative actions through an Article 15 this idiot already has a problem and is making it worse on Himself.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2017 7:52 PM

2017-04-29T19:52:22-04:00

As far as the soldier goes... I would have told him to change that the insubordination was doing himself no favors. I would have continued with the fact that if he continued to shame himself that his disrespectful attitude would not go unnoticed by those who had authority to make his life truly uncomfortable answering such a simple question would be the least of his worries. I would do this with a flat even tone and not raise my voice or loose control. Then he can either change or not. If not he can answer to the next level in the chain of command.

As for the civilian. I would have asked for a second. Politely at first, then I would have informed the civilian that I was taking one and she could wait. If she disliked that she could speak have her boss speak to mine and figure something out. If she disregarded my intent I'd speak to her bos with my superior in tow and maybe even her directly with both present. If this doesn't correct the situation then it should move up from there.

Response by SSG Chris Allsopp made Apr 29 at 2017 8:14 PM

2017-04-29T20:14:04-04:00

You are completely right at demanding proper etiquette. However, you are also looking for a reason to address soldiers in question. Focus on your job. Do your job. Giving an officer a shiny thing helps them fail the mission. Stay focused, use that disrespect as another submission of evidence. That... And you're just a Dick.

Response by SSG Cameron Henson made Apr 29 at 2017 8:15 PM

2017-04-29T20:15:05-04:00

Who was his immediate supervisor?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2017 8:44 PM

2017-04-29T20:44:22-04:00

Sounds like superiority complex to me

Response by SPC Sean Slaughter made Apr 29 at 2017 9:06 PM

2017-04-29T21:06:08-04:00

This newer kinder military is ridiculous! Go back to smoking the dog shit out of some of these useless jerks and maybe salvaging a few instead of this "I gotta write a counseling statement and build a paper trail" nonsense!

Response by SSG Randall Ford made Apr 29 at 2017 9:17 PM

2017-04-29T21:17:35-04:00

I sure know what I would feel like doing. Some good old school discipline is called for.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2017 9:27 PM

2017-04-29T21:27:19-04:00

The whole scenario is about as clear as mud to me, but once the CPT you refer to was involved that was your cue to let the higher ranked and lawyers handle it. The attitude thing was probably about trying to get you to lose it and taking a time out was smart on your part. The Court was in charge and it's up to them to maintain order. Not sure where you fit into that. You were within boundaries to attempt to square him away. If he was a defense witness the defense lawyer should keep him in check in the interest of his client, but anyone senior has proper authority. Once it elevated to a higher paygrade and the civilian got involved it was above your paygrade. He was on active duty at the time so he's accountable for his actions per UCMJ. You could tack silent contempt on under article 134 along with any others that applied such as 91 & 92, but that might have been best handled by the senior personnel. Not sure what the civilian's capacity was but she does have a senior and although she doesn't fall under UCMJ she is still accountable. That one is up to the Officers of the Court and/or her reporting senior. Bottom line for you is take a time out, make note of the event, and let Court and/or seniors and attorneys handle it.

Response by SSG Albert Christopher made Apr 30 at 2017 12:09 AM

2017-04-30T00:09:23-04:00

Hard to answer the way things have changed in recent years. There was a time I would have given the soldier some much needed wall-to-wall counseling. Personally, I feel that it is needed sometimes, but in today's political climate (yes, the Army can get political) I'd have to bite my tongue. While this would save my career, it would not correct the soldier's problem of what sounds like a pure case of attitude. Probably diagnosable as Oppositional Defiant Disorder, or F.U.P. (F-ed up parents)

Response by SSgt Scotty Marks made Apr 30 at 2017 12:58 AM

2017-04-30T00:58:47-04:00

I would have been charged with assault. Glad I'm retired now.

Response by GySgt Wayne Neff made Apr 30 at 2017 8:03 AM

2017-04-30T08:03:18-04:00

I would have told him to get in the correct uniform and then I would have told the civilian to mind her own business and move on and after I would have gone to her boss and filed a complaint against her

Response by SrA Britney Sharpe made Apr 30 at 2017 9:54 AM

2017-04-30T09:54:25-04:00

After reading your question, then looking a bit at who you are and what you do, then pulling myself back together... First, and foremost, thank you for doing what you do. Above and beyond your service, for being a voice for people that sometimes CAN'T speak for themselves; thank you for that.
Hold these people accountable for their (in)actions.

To answer your question, you did right. You held YOUR bearing.
If you need to find a nice Maj Payne to come stick his foot knee deep then do it. As for the civilian, if it ever happens again, politely give her the same knife hand you're giving him and tell her you'll "address her concerns in a moment, Miss".
Sometimes you have to remind people that you ARE a soldier, first and foremost.

Response by PO2 Joseph Fast made Apr 30 at 2017 11:06 AM

2017-04-30T11:06:38-04:00

You should make clear that the person you are talking about was a witness and not the person being court martialed. Does it make a difference, absolutely not. Does it clarify confusion, completely.

Response by SPC Caitlyn Evans made Apr 30 at 2017 11:09 AM

2017-04-30T11:09:56-04:00

I miss the old Army... Now you have to be careful what you say and how you address others. Now we gotta bunch of privates not scared to do shit because we can't touch them.

Response by SGT Kaye Fiorello made Apr 30 at 2017 12:41 PM

2017-04-30T12:41:18-04:00

Not having the whole story makes this difficult to know the correct amswer(s). Who was the court martial for? (the guy in ACUs?) who was the CPT (in his CoC or a JAG?) Was the soldier in ACU's there for the court martial (or picking something up from the paralegal?) who was there first?
The civilian? well, we don't know really how much 'yelling' was going on, and how long for, so I cannot just judge based on this.
So, yes, maybe the CPT walking away until he/she calmed down and put self control in place, was the right way to deal with it until a whole story was known, and the proper chain of command was advised.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2017 1:12 PM

2017-04-30T13:12:45-04:00

I had a Marine do this to me one time. He caught an attitude over me telling him, for probably the 4th time, to open his blinds. He was on restriction abd that was the room order. Needless to say i went of on him and got in his face, but I never put my hands on him.

You did the right thing, but id be sure to hand that soldier his ass after that was over. Id make him regret disrespecting any authority again. Especially while he/she is still in the military

Response by PO1 Robin Thrasher made Apr 30 at 2017 1:29 PM

2017-04-30T13:29:13-04:00

I got out in 86...went back in in 89 as a 1st...in NavVet school i had an e2 tell me to eff off. I was floored. I took her in to the Lt's office and all he said to her was, "you shouldn't talk like that" Really? We had an e2 as our Asst company commander and she struck the fear of God in all of us

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2017 1:37 PM

2017-04-30T13:37:45-04:00

Well if it's that soldier's court martial, then I think the matter is probably going to sort itself out when the judge sees them in the wrong uniform. If it's not that soldier's court martial and they are a witness or something of that nature then their failure to follow a lawful order should be reported to their chain of command.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2017 3:57 PM

2017-04-30T15:57:37-04:00

If it's "his" court martial I'm sure showing up in the wrong uniform is going to be the least of his worries especially if it comes down to a dishonorable discharge or hard labor-its frustrating but not worth getting pissed off about-let the courts decide his fate-thats why they are in place.

Response by SGT Jon Creager made Apr 30 at 2017 5:41 PM

2017-04-30T17:41:12-04:00

Kid has already hanged himself so to speak. The actions should be heavily noted in closing arguments. All the could have, would have and should have can be carried out by the jduge at sentencing.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2017 6:02 PM

2017-04-30T18:02:45-04:00

I'd have let the courts marshel go on as planned and let the judge do his/her job and Start leading solders that want to be in. Those who want out get all the help I can provide. Quit wasting valuable time on lost causes and train/lead soldiers.

Response by CW4 Edmund Parowski made Apr 30 at 2017 6:27 PM

2017-04-30T18:27:19-04:00

I agree with those who have recommended calling the MPs. The perpetrator of this sort of behavior is assuming that you really can't do anything to him, at least until you have "accumulated enough paper" or consulted with someone else. The snap of handcuffs on his wrists will change that perception. This sort of breach of discipline has to be handled swiftly and decisively. Anything else is permission to continue.
The charge of disobeying a lawful order, among others, would seem to be open-and-shut for at least an Article 15. Here's where you will find out what kind of support you will get from your chain of command. Far too many commanders are unwilling to punish one miscreant, but are more than willing to punish the rest of us by allowing him to poison the morale and discipline of the unit.
As to the civilian, I would make a formal complaint to her superior. Hopefully, your chain of command would second the complaint. After she goes through the process triggered by that, she would be unlikely to ever interfere again.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2017 8:35 PM

2017-04-30T20:35:16-04:00

Throat punch... but make sure there are no witnesses

Response by CN Ryan Bird made Apr 30 at 2017 9:39 PM

2017-04-30T21:39:03-04:00

It was a good response, my problem is what the hell did the command/CO do to make a guy act that way. I would assume that something past the NJP level that the soldier royally screwed up and had his ass in a sling already, so what pissed him off to the point he felt ballsy enough to completely fuck up the uniform and in addition give you the middle finger?

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Apr 30 at 2017 9:58 PM

2017-04-30T21:58:01-04:00

I would have told the civilian(former Military ) that he or she needed to excuse us and vacate the room until we were finished. If they had a prob take it up with s'body higher up the food chain. Hopefully it would take a while before they came back if they left. I Prob'ly wouldn't say it exactly that way but it might infer that's what was meant.
I've done counseling sessions and have been interrupted.. I would ask them nicely and if that didn't work .. had a time the Superintendent's administrative assistant who happened to be a Gs-6. Interrupted
And I asked her nicely to come back in about 15 minutes .. she acted as if I had no right to be counseling the Airman(i had his Sergeant present) . I'd informed him of options he had. If he wanted legal counsel we'd stop talking.. but I was hoping that it wouldn't have to come to that point. I wasn't accusing him of anything yet in that sitrep.. I wanted to know why he didn't take corrective action in a particular sitrep. He said it was 't his shift's project and didn't think he should meddle.. .. the assistant tried to interrupt once again and I said I thought I told you to come back in a while.. So she left in a huff... didn't come back either.. I think it was close to her shift ending time.. anyway we resolved the issue and it ended with a letter of counsel.. I hoped she didn't try to meddle in that.. I put a copy in the Supr's office drawer with a note for his eyes only.. he could make the determination later.. I just didn't want her sticking her busybody nose into it. She had a habit of trying to correct my Airmen as if she were an extension of the Superintendent.. a couple of them were outside the side door when they seen a couple of Female Airmen going by .. they hadn't said anything yet to the females and the admin. Assist thought it her place to tell my cooks to get back inside.. one of them informed her they were off shift and if She had a prob to see their immediate supervisor(me) . And they both walked off and went back to their barracks. She told the super and he told me she was filing a formal complaint that the Airmen told her off. after she ordered them back indoors.. The Super told her she had no supervisory powers over the Airmen, she was his admin assist and that was all.. she could follow the chain of Cmnd and it would be looked into but n'thing would Prob'ly come of it. She said they were ogling the female personnel. That was why she ordered them inside.. I said I'd have a chat with them.. she wanted to see them written up. .. I just smiled and and went back to work..
"why throw gas on a smouldering fire.. "
I talked to them and suggested they not make it look so obvious.. or I might have to get out the pen and harrasment papers and they don't want to go down that road.. it can get really ugly for them , especially with Mz nosybody.. at the hearing.. a few weeks later Mz Nosybody who also had nice feminine features was in town and s'body in a car wolf-whistled at her, lucky for them the car behind them was too close so she couldn't see the plate.. She said she thought she recognized one of the people but wasn't sure.. She wanted them two brought in and questioned.. I told her go
To the Desk Sgt. Downtown Hampton and maybe he can help her but it was doubtful.. She could see she wasn't getting any cooperation .. She went to the Squadron Cmdr.. he said he'd bring it up at Cmdr's call next week.. .. I think he posted a letter on the bulletin boards for everybody to read and be aware of..
it happened a couple more times.. still she couldn't get a plate number... it had a smokey cover over the plate.. she drove
around base looking for that car, couldn't find it.. Have you tried Norfolk or Fort Monroe or Fort Eustis.. we asked her.. the woman was fit to be tied .. she got worn down by it.. she finally took a week off of work.. we talked to the guys.. and told them to lay off whistling at her.. turned out it wasn't them .. they were at work while she was off and s'body whistled at her again. My Airmen were at work making that day's lunch.. even the Superintendent seen them working..
What happened after I don't know, I was gone by then..

Response by SSgt Mike Finch made May 1 at 2017 1:47 AM

2017-05-01T01:47:32-04:00

Let's just say I think I would have a hard time fitting into today's, "enlightened, kinder and gentler," military.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2017 2:26 AM

2017-05-01T02:26:57-04:00

I'd told the civilian to shut their mouth... the soldier recommended UCMJ On top of his already court martial but you have to just keep writing the Soldier up for every little infraction

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2017 7:38 AM

2017-05-01T07:38:56-04:00

In my experience, a Soldier would act like that when confronted by a disrespectful leader. If you approached the Soldier with attitude, then you deserved every bit of it back. Unfortunately, NCOs and officers think it has become okay to talk down to or publicly humiliate Soldiers. As an NCO, I always tried to remain as professional as possible when negatively counseling my subordinates. I also reported toxic leaders for mistreating Soldiers. If you approached the individual with an unprofessional attitude, you were also in violation of UCMJ and should reevaluate the way you conduct yourself. If you were respectful and conducting yourself professionally, then the Soldier deserves corrective action.

Don't forget, you are not that Soldier's leader. He/she has their own. The Soldier most likely did not respond to you because he/she already received proper guidance and you were serving as an additional nuisance to an already-inconvenient situation. Next time, I suggest you find his leadership to make the suggested corrective action. You were likely telling him to do something his NCOs already addressed. Officers tend to overstep.

Remember what you did is more of an NCOs duty.

Response by PO2 Dave Chandler Sr. made May 1 at 2017 8:20 AM

2017-05-01T08:20:49-04:00

It sounds to me like a soon to be civilian was showing disdain for Military Behavior & it would be in the best interest if said individual to a lengthy vacay at Leavenworth prior to returning to civilian life.

Response by SGT Mark Grier made May 1 at 2017 10:30 AM

2017-05-01T10:30:50-04:00

Respect is a two way street. Don't be an asshole NCO.

Response by SGT Mark Grier made May 1 at 2017 10:42 AM

2017-05-01T10:42:08-04:00

If you tear into a civilian be warned that civilian can have you ass. We may be vets but we know we don't have to put up with your bullshit. We are under Title 5 and you are under UCMJ. Big difference.
Most NCO's decided that they like the DOD civilian world to but the people you piss off are the gate keepers.

me personally I gives a shit if you are stringing up a pvt. I think it's funny. I stay out of military business because soldiers have to learn. As long as some idiot NCO thinks he can tell me what to do

Response by CWO4 David Heriford made May 1 at 2017 10:44 AM

2017-05-01T10:44:20-04:00

More paper work. Write him up and add more charges. Now if it had been during my career (retired 30 years ago) we'd would have had a private counseling session in the gear locker. Darn he fell down a ladder.

Response by SrA Roger Titus made May 1 at 2017 10:53 AM

2017-05-01T10:53:51-04:00

a well placed throat punch usually puts them back in line., it falls under the article "who gives a shit' Respect should be given no matter what rank, uniform or conditions you are in. that's why the words army and intelligence are rarely ever in the same sentence.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2017 11:04 AM

2017-05-01T11:04:38-04:00

why can't we bring back the throat punch? J/K...or am I

Response by SFC Dwain Masek made May 1 at 2017 11:06 AM

2017-05-01T11:06:56-04:00

Locate the civilian supervisor. Everyone has a chain of command.

Response by SPC Matthew Hart made May 1 at 2017 1:27 PM

2017-05-01T13:27:16-04:00

He's getting court martialed... He's not off to a good start to begin with and not helping his case. He is screwing himself over. I'd let him because in the end he's determining his own chances of getting s job and how messed up his future is going to be. He will, by his own actions, punish himself far worse than anyone else could.

Response by SGT Morrison (Mike) Hogwood made May 1 at 2017 1:43 PM

2017-05-01T13:43:32-04:00

probably why he is at a courts martial,your 2 cents do not mean anything at this point,just feel happy that you are part of a team that just got rid of shitbag.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2017 1:47 PM

2017-05-01T13:47:37-04:00

There's a fine line between not knowing and complete, utter non-compliance. Given the situation, I guess SM in question just didn't care at that point. Understandable, but to disrespect an field grade officer and senior NCO by blatantly ignoring simple orders, not to mention at a legal proceeding. Guess guy validated why he was there in the first place and future continuance in the US Army won't be much longer. I'm sorry Sarge but you and I both know people will be those individuals. And added, maybe the location was a little out of pace since you might have conflicted with others ability to do their jobs, but that's not a knock on you. At that time, place and juncture, emotionally you felt slighted and you needed to do a on-the-spot correction. So you did what you felt you needed to do at that exact time. Soldier just took it to another level.

Response by AB Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2017 2:26 PM

2017-05-01T14:26:58-04:00

I think taking the time to cool your self down was a smart move. I know that when I used to be a corrections officer there was a time and place to unload on someone that wasn't following orders. So that may have not been the time nor the place. That being said though the soldier in question seems to be doing everything he can to just get out of the military on the worst terms possible. It's actually sad to see someone who probably at one point in time was so excited to take that oath and now to see them at this point. Makes me curious what causes that to happen in someone. I've always lived by the motto, when you feel like you want to quit remember why you started.

Response by PO2 Ken Sawyer made May 1 at 2017 2:56 PM

2017-05-01T14:56:39-04:00

Reported the civilian up the chain of command and just told the soldier fine, BCD it is...

Response by SgtMaj Michael Lillie made May 1 at 2017 3:02 PM

2017-05-01T15:02:54-04:00

Velcro name tab. Take it. Walk away. Drop on CSM desk.

Response by SSG Stephan Pendarvis made May 1 at 2017 3:51 PM

2017-05-01T15:51:50-04:00

Just put it on paper...and place it on the growing stack of papers he is using to ruin his career with....

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made May 1 at 2017 6:10 PM

2017-05-01T18:10:55-04:00

You were right and if this soldier had an ounce of pride in himself he would have answered with respect and told you he was returning to his quarters to change. Maybe he didn't get the memo? Turning away from you was a definite sign of disrespect and he should be counseled for that too.

Response by SPC Marvin Darling made May 2 at 2017 3:22 PM

2017-05-02T15:22:12-04:00

I see a lot of responses to what they would do, personally I need more information on the situation.
Was he under your direct command at the time? Was he your troop? Did you just see him and decide to make the correction? What were both roles of this encounter? Who was up for the Court Martial? Let's take a logical look at this whole situation. We got the end of the story but not really the beginning.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2017 4:51 PM

2017-05-03T16:51:08-04:00

Response by TSgt Kerry Hardy made May 3 at 2017 5:41 PM

2017-05-03T17:41:16-04:00

Seems most are focusing on civilian and not SSG's first issue. Solider is at their court-martial in wrong uniform, when asked by SSG solider just turned away. Solider doesn't care about what SSG is stating and being in wrong uniform is just more "I want out now" what more can you do to me. SSG should make one of 2 choices, 1. With time permitting, march their a$$ back to living quarters and make them change 2. If time doesn't allow that when asked buy judge, solider can explain his uniform or more than likely do same to judge as to SSG. Don't needed to have an animism as your
health isn't worth a solider than will be out of your control soon enough. And I am sure the SSG has seen a few solider in the courtroom like that in the past.
As for civilian, As a GS-13 myself I would have entered the room and ask SSG to move to a more private setting to "correct" the solider. Don't need someone yelling in a public area as that is unprofessional. As a SSG you should know that and act like a NCO. There are was to handle people like that and bending to their level isn't one. And for the "Drill Sargent", See how fast your CO will be calling you to their office if you use that tone with me. Respect is a two way street....

Response by COL William Oseles made May 3 at 2017 5:54 PM

2017-05-03T17:54:52-04:00

Call his chain of command and send them a Sworn Statement, with the witness' as well.
As for the civilian, do the same and file a compaint with HR.

Response by SSgt Brian Newton made May 9 at 2017 10:06 AM

2017-05-09T10:06:09-04:00

I would have turned to the civilian and said "with all due respect, I am in the middle of correcting a soldier for disobeying a direct order, and he may be the next court martial if he doesn't soon pull his ass out of his end and show me some respect, so I apoligize for the disturbance, but I also have a job to do." Then I would have went right back at that soldier and dressed him down, and SSgt, this is coming from an old school SSgt with 15 yos in the Air Force! I don't know how you do deal with this generation in the military, because there is no way in hell we would have been able to do this and get away with it. I saw people get LOC's for being 2 mins late to roll call, I saw people get a month of Dorm Duty or Base clean up for snickering the wrong way. My times have changed. Maybe some of us old schoolers need to come out from the shadows and shape up these lil punks!

Response by SSG Brian MacBain made May 12 at 2017 5:49 PM

2017-05-12T17:49:32-04:00

To me, there is a right and wrong way to handle this. If you are that loud that a another person can hear you and is bothered by the noise from a room with a shut door, and you have no other place, then you might want to conduct this "after hours" so it will not interrupt others and gives some "privacy" (SP?) as well. If that cannot happen, then you might want to find another place in the building or outside away from common areas where you can have some privacy.

Response by Cpl Steven Wilson made May 14 at 2017 6:29 AM

2017-05-14T06:29:04-04:00

I do not know what sex you are, but I would have "grown a pair" and told the civilian (respectfully) to cease, this is a military matter and will be finished in a moment. Counsel the prisoner, his guard and tell the defense council/presiding officer/prosecuting officer as appropriate.

Response by TSgt George Rodriguez made May 15 at 2017 9:50 AM

2017-05-15T09:50:54-04:00

Proper response to the female interrupting the situation would be to ask if she was Pinocchio as she was sticking her nose into something that was none of her business. Admonishing her in a professional manner should embarrass her in front of a witness to back you up if needed.

Response by SGT Jim Ramge, MBA made May 18 at 2017 1:54 PM

2017-05-18T13:54:20-04:00

I think there are some misunderstandings here... Yes NCO business is still tossed around as taking care of there own and can and should be done - depending on said circumstances! Can be taken in several ways. As previously mentioned, some of you might want to re-consider your words when your NCOER is signed by a GS personnel. Having not served in joint positions, you will learn quite quickly that they too can ruin your military career... Do some research! Look up SES (Senior Executive Service) which happen to be equivalent to a Flag Officer, or that GS15 whom signs that 06's OER. Some of you Senior NCOs that want to play NCOs rule, think twice, you might find you will have to swallow your words! Wouldn't misconstrue NCO leadership with the power of the mighty GS leadership and their penned signature! You will learn quite quickly they can be just as powerful... All that said, depending on the position, a GS will typically let the military handle their own if requested. In my 4 joint assignments, didn't see once that a Senior Army individual didn't have the respect to request or state they would handle the situation... And yes, I did state "request", the professional thing to do!

Response by CPO Bill Downs made May 21 at 2017 3:36 PM

2017-05-21T15:36:02-04:00

Not sure what they do in the Army in situations like this, but in my 23+ years in the Navy this situation would never have taken place. First, an officer doesn't "ask" an enlisted why he is out if uniform, he tells him to get into the proper uniform. If the enlisted refuses or doesn't follow the direct order, then there will be an NJP following a report chit. I also know if hat in the Navy if a junior enlisted showed up to a courts martial in the wrong uniform his CPO would be explaining to the officer why his man wasn't counselled on the proper uniform before he got a there.

Response by SFC Arai Pooley made May 23 at 2017 8:11 AM

2017-05-23T08:11:40-04:00

Assuming that it was not "your" court martial . . . . try starting with: "What unit are you with" and "Who is you 1SG", before you ask about the uniform. I would have told the civilian to pound dirt and beat feet; then informed the soon to be private to stand fast while I got ahold of is CSM. No reason to get emotionally evolved, just bring it to the attention of the Soldiers' Senior NCOs. They will handle the problem swiftly.

Response by PFC Charles Sanders made May 29 at 2017 6:10 PM

2017-05-29T18:10:01-04:00

The fact that you were at the soldier's court martial should tell you everything you need to know. I wouldn't let it bother you. Sounds like they won't be in the Army much longer anyway.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2017 7:17 PM

2017-05-29T19:17:43-04:00

Throat punch, followed by Court Martial Charges

Response by SGT Frank Yarum made May 31 at 2017 2:40 PM

2017-05-31T14:40:46-04:00

He is a Soldier and as such is held to military standards and is legally obligated to follow the lawfull orders of his superiors or be subjected to corrective action under UCMJ, ( which as a military lawyer you already know). A civilian has no authority to interfere with Military Discipline. And I am sorry, but you were addressing the soldier so your Paralegal should have remained quit and let you handle it. I think you would have taken the soldier to a private setting before you attempted any verbal corrections with this individual, (as it should be with all disciplinary correction). When you walked away, you as an Officer, gave that soldier everything he needed to continue his poor attitude and lack of Military Discipline.

Response by CPO Bill Downs made Jun 4 at 2017 8:45 AM

2017-06-04T08:45:49-04:00

After I had reprimanded the soldier and ordered him to get into the uniform of the day, I would have taken the civilian aside and reprimanded her/him for interfering in a military matter and then reported the civilians actions to his/her superior. The last thing I would do is "walk away" before resolving the situation. As a leader it is your duty to set the example for others and allowing a junior enlisted to disrespect you without immediate reprimand reflects in your lack of leadership. Our military must always have good order and discipline in order to function at the highest level and when those in a position of leadership allow any act of disrespect to go uncorrected we lose good order and discipline and diminish the effectiveness of our mission.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2017 6:17 PM

2017-06-06T18:17:57-04:00

I'm assuming that this court martial is bcos the soldier is in trouble. If that is the case I would let things take their course considering he appears to not care his future is at stake, And if the judge got on to me for the matter i would pokitely inform him that i took the steps i had to for the soldier to be in the right uniform and that he decided not to follow your order. Made your bed now lay in it.

Response by SGT Ricky Young made Jun 9 at 2017 3:36 PM

2017-06-09T15:36:15-04:00

I would of told him the uniform and directed him to change if not then I would have had the paralegal write a statement and then present to the judge. Let the little smart ass tell the judge why he was in the wrong uniform. Then process the paper work for another discpline action.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Jun 10 at 2017 2:25 PM

2017-06-10T14:25:10-04:00

I would have apologized to the civilian, taken trooper goofy outside, and then laid into him. The office hallways, on or near legal is not the best place to for wall to wall counseling. Too many legal minds who would see and hear what transpired, hard to sell the whole he drove his front teeth into my helmet argument. lol I see a bag full of camouflage poles coming his way...not that I would ever condone such a practice.

Response by PFC Stephen Eric Serati made Jun 11 at 2017 6:39 PM

2017-06-11T18:39:22-04:00

U should have got his name,rank,unit and report it.Undermining the Officer Corp is dangerous 4 any military.Ur probably not the only Officer he's disrespected.

Response by MSgt John Geruso made Jun 11 at 2017 6:51 PM

2017-06-11T18:51:17-04:00

I would have told the civilian to please butt out, this is a military issue. But I wouldn't have been yelling, just be assertive in voice and stature. Were you ranting and raving while correcting?

Response by PO2 Skip Kirkwood made Jun 11 at 2017 8:54 PM

2017-06-11T20:54:16-04:00

Can you put him in confinement? A civilian judge, if someone showed up in improper attire, would cite the defendant for contempt and throw him in jail.

Response by 1SG Clifford Barnes made Jun 11 at 2017 8:57 PM

2017-06-11T20:57:27-04:00

I would have the Soldier to go to a different area and continue my professional counseling and informed the civilian to butt out without raising my voice. I would have fixed the Soldier and made sure he followed my orders. I have never had a problem handling soldiers

Response by SPC James Tribble made Jun 12 at 2017 2:47 PM

2017-06-12T14:47:44-04:00

I was ib the Army from 1966 -1969. Honestly, I never saw any disrespect like that. Respect was drilled into us from day one, in a way that you never forgot.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 12 at 2017 4:58 PM

2017-06-12T16:58:09-04:00

Punched the civilian in the face and the soldier too. Neither one of them would have done sh-t with their bitch asses. Some Article 15's need to be earned and that would have been just the day to earn one. Just my 2¢.

Current SFC

Response by 1SG Chuck Schnepfe made Jun 12 at 2017 4:58 PM

2017-06-12T16:58:27-04:00

After continued disobedience I would have summoned an MP. That way the charges would be noted by law enforcement. The Soldier would have been apprehended and titled and his COC would deal with him then. Then, I would have a word with the Civilain and her supervisor, discussing the reason that she was employed by the Army in the first place.

Response by SSgt Julius Bob Midgett made Jun 12 at 2017 5:41 PM

2017-06-12T17:41:00-04:00

Back in my day he would have made a trip out behind a building and not been at a court martial for a minor infraction and if it was serious enough to warrant a courts martial he would have already had the fear of God put in him

Response by PO1 Paul Goodnough made Jun 12 at 2017 6:52 PM

2017-06-12T18:52:12-04:00

Informing the civilian politely that the matter is in referance to a MILITARY Courts Martial and she has no Jurisidiction, and to the Soldier ( especially is I were the JAG Representing him as it sounds like you were in this case) I would remind him that his Refusal to answer is only compounding a situation that he is already in.

Response by SSG Jim Perkins made Jun 13 at 2017 2:56 AM

2017-06-13T02:56:44-04:00

First mistake was walking away to cool off. He basically got away with it, so his disrespect was just given positive affirmation. Never give in Capt. if it means more punishment and added charges then so be it. Shitbirds today know that people would rather not do the paperwork.

Response by MSgt James Bagby made Jun 13 at 2017 9:05 AM

2017-06-13T09:05:20-04:00

Evaluate the situation. You're at a court martial. You're not out in the field. Speak in a moderate and determined voice. Yelling at the soldier, if that's what you did, was inappropriate here. You don't need to feel disrespected. I think you were overcome with "Are you freaking kidding me? ACUs? What is your major malfunction Pyle?" Good on ya for leaving the scene to "cool off."

Response by SGM Samuel Boyle made Jun 13 at 2017 10:51 AM

2017-06-13T10:51:23-04:00

Each individual handles situations differently, which doesn't necessarily make one wrong or the other right. Ultimately it's learning about what works for you. Given what detail you've provided I assume you're in a 'office' type environment, in the immediate vicinity to where the court-martial proceeding will occur - possibly meaning that adequate time to correct the uniform violation does not exist; why this soldier is at the c-m is not apparent but that really doesn't matter. If time to correct the uniform does not exist, asking 'why' they are in the incorrect uniform and attempting to follow that line has a null result, as you found, it only angers you and allows the soldier to feel that they achieved some small victory.
I likely would have acknowledged the soldiers incorrect uniform and let them know that their action will have negative repercussions ("You were instructed to be in ASU's, we will talk about this later"); maintaining your sanity, not provoking the civilian to comment, and not letting the soldier take the attitude that they did. The Judge could have been informed, by the Paralegal, of the uniform discrepancy and made any adjustment they determined necessary, if at all. Later you could have counseled the soldier and if appropriate recommended further action, or determined some remedial training to correct the deficiency which appears to be failure to follow instructions to wit: inability to show at a predetermined time and place in the proper uniform. Using your counseling form to establish the plan of action (ie: directed to appear at X time/place in Y uniform; 3 different times/ uniforms because repetition is known to improve proper performance), and to follow-up on satisfactory/unsat performance of the remedial training/plan of action.

That is just one alternative; what's really important is that you learned something coming out of it and that you sought advice on how to deal with future issues while seeking a different outcome.

Response by SGT Joel Bourbeau made Jun 13 at 2017 10:58 AM

2017-06-13T10:58:19-04:00

Sounds like the soldier was looking for a reaction for all to see. I see that attitude a lot when police officers confront idiots...just goading them to react and maybe get a cell phone video out of it that would possibly make it to Youtube.

Response by LTC Joseph George made Jun 13 at 2017 12:03 PM

2017-06-13T12:03:41-04:00

The lack of discipline starts in BCT. It is allowed to continue in units as no one wants to take the bull by the horns and do their jobs, this is at all levels. The fear of reprisal from SHARP, EO, and no support from Officers and Senior NCO's is appalling. I know this is the way society and congress wants it, but we as leaders need to lead, sometimes a good "Wall to Wall" counseling session needs to happen as well as total peer pressure. Get rid of the "Red Cards" in BCT, make those Privates responsible and accountable.

Response by Tom Kanzler made Jun 13 at 2017 2:30 PM

2017-06-13T14:30:21-04:00

Were you yelling ? , of so why ? I would think yelling would be counterproductive. The former military turned civilian had a point only if the Captains voice was causing a scene , if the civilian was becoming part of the problem then he needs to be informed to stop interfering and move on!

Response by CPT Steve Thompson made Jun 13 at 2017 6:41 PM

2017-06-13T18:41:27-04:00

Pick your battles. A uniform correction with a soldier standing court-martial is hardly a hill worth dying for. If he was one to be conscientious and respectful, he probably not be standing before a court-martial. The fact that he was disrespectful at the beginning tells you where his head is at. I believe his dress will be noted by the folks on the Courts Marital board, and they will act accordingly.

Response by SPC Tyler Davidson made Jun 13 at 2017 11:42 PM

2017-06-13T23:42:42-04:00

out him in the brig for 30 days then start all over again just claim hes a flight risk

Response by SGT Leslie Crews made Jun 14 at 2017 4:11 PM

2017-06-14T16:11:55-04:00

But us prior service guys who held that high standard and conducted ourselves as requested can get back in because we have high blood pressure. It's just like the new 40 k bonus for enlisting, no guarantee these soldier will make it . Again us prior service guys already demonstrated our loyalty and commitment. This is what's wrong with the Army. They asked for the week and now they are over whelmed with them.

Response by LTC Silviu Bora made Jun 15 at 2017 1:38 PM

2017-06-15T13:38:43-04:00

More charges! Disrespecting an officer and failure to follow a direct order followed by failure to appear in the proper uniform.

Response by MSgt Fred Gottshalk made Jun 15 at 2017 7:48 PM

2017-06-15T19:48:00-04:00

When I was in the military; this would not have been such a stupid question. OBEDIANCE is a requirement. YOU don't obey, then people die. IT would have been handled on the spot !!!
I have learned that as your command learns about you, and you about them, most will respect your opinion. BUT, as the junior, you damn well better be right.....That builds integrity and loyalty.

Response by Timoteo Suazo made Jun 16 at 2017 2:37 PM

2017-06-16T14:37:25-04:00

Let me give you a civilians perspective. It is my understanding that the only civilian that military persona are required to obey while on a military instillation is the Comander in chief. Whoever the civilian was in this matter should have been removed from the situation and you military guys should then continue on doing what you do without interference.

Response by SMSgt David Burke made Jun 16 at 2017 2:54 PM

2017-06-16T14:54:00-04:00

Unclear if the soldier not in compliance with required uniform was somehow involved with the CM other than as a spectator. If he/she was, then the judge would be the authority to adjust the attitude, via the military prosecutor, along with the uni violation. If a spectator, I would direct the individual to depart the CM and return in correct uni if the individual so desired. Court security troops would be available to enforce either the judge's or my corrections.

Response by PO1 Kevin Arnold made Jun 17 at 2017 4:51 PM

2017-06-17T16:51:15-04:00

Well that is a hard situation. For the soldier was already being at a court martial so the soldier was thinking what can you do. If found guilty the soldier will have a price to pay. If not we'll I would have went to his chain of command. Let them handle this soldier appropriately.

Response by LCpl Cody Collins made Jun 18 at 2017 8:03 AM

2017-06-18T08:03:25-04:00

First off all I can say is WOW ! Now in reality I would have had the MP's cuff his was and escort him back to his barracks or where ever he lived, to change into the proper Uniform. As fo r that civilian poking her nose in my business, I'd have to her to shut the hell up and mind her own business. She can go cry to whomever she wants. It's time for us right minded people to push back on these belligerent anti-president/ anti-athority knuckle heads that feel they can say and do what they want. I hope the judge threw the book at his sorry ass.

Response by SFC Eugene Helstrom made Jun 19 at 2017 7:30 AM

2017-06-19T07:30:20-04:00

Let the civilian know she is out of line and to move her hindquarters to a location best suited for her job if she wants to keep it and stay out of your business. Warn the idiot he is about receive more indictable offenses stacked on his sorry ass if he continues to disrespect you.

Response by CPO Terry Long made Jun 19 at 2017 3:19 PM

2017-06-19T15:19:27-04:00

The blatantly disrespectful attitude, the willful shoving of hands in the pockets, and the continued disrespectful attitude and refusal to follow orders...Chief Oldschool takes individual outside and administers some 'Conex Box Counseling' replying that he fell down the stairs while I was trying to talk to him.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2017 5:02 PM

2017-06-19T17:02:16-04:00

All I can say is, the Army has certainly changed (and not for the better) since I was in it 50 years ago.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2017 5:55 PM

2017-06-19T17:55:55-04:00

Wait you are a Captain and you walked away? What???

Response by SSgt Danny O'Neal made Jun 19 at 2017 8:02 PM

2017-06-19T20:02:48-04:00

Silly civilian, we don't care how you feel. He would have provided a answer and respect or he would be standing tall before the man.

Response by SSG Anton Savin made Jun 20 at 2017 3:32 AM

2017-06-20T03:32:39-04:00

It seems that you have to be a lawyer just to make some dirtbag do some push-ups nowadays. New Army.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Jun 20 at 2017 3:37 AM

2017-06-20T03:37:48-04:00

I know this is a late response, but SLAM DUNK the soldier. You got the power of the pen and it is clear this soldier needs to learn what respect is. I'd have this soldier's pay and at the same time he'd be scrubbing toilets with a tooth brush.

Response by A1C Dean West made Jun 20 at 2017 7:17 AM

2017-06-20T07:17:01-04:00

Yeah, since the guy is at a court martial, what a shame that he some how feels that some or all are against him and so gives you less respect than you thought you deserved. But that you walked away when triggered, gosh, that's so precious that you knew when you needed a wittle time out! It lets me know that the civilian woman probably knew just how pathetically lacking in anything to respect you were or she'd not have basically dismissed you.

And in case I had any doubt at all, here you are, asking net strangers for how you could have handled a naughty waughy hands in pockets soldier! Well, you could start by becoming a soldier first, which is apparently nowadays something that doesn't just "happen" for having finished Basic!

Response by LCpl Jay McCain made Jun 21 at 2017 2:16 AM

2017-06-21T02:16:14-04:00

Not knowing why the individual was being disciplined I can offer only this, put yourself in his/her shoes and try to discern how You would want to be treated. Obviously there was a problem. What Caused the problem that said individual committed the act. Trouble at home, substance abuse, financial issues, and the list goes on. Did anybody show any concern as to Why the individual did what they did? The military spends a lot of money in training each service member, and it seems appropriate to maintain the assets that each member possesses. Sure, at some point disciplinary measures need to be taken, but don't forget you're not dealing with an inanimate object that's broken a part. At Some point, that person was wanted. Find out what the problem(s) might be, assist in rectifying those problems, and then do whatever else needs to be done -up to and including discharge. Don't misunderstand, I am Not suggesting bad behavior be condoned. I'm saying, treat your service members with the same respect you'd desire and I think you'll find compliance will improve.

You can command respect, or you can demand respect. Those who command respect Always make better leaders. And, if you don't understand the difference, then God help those you lead.

By the way: I was discharge as an E-1, honorably, RE1A ...I simply lacked the filter to stop myself from informing morons that they were morons, Not because I was incapable of performing my duties.

USMC 1983-01-26 to 1987-01-23
Fox 2/9
Alpha 1/5
MP/CID

Response by SGT Jason Ellenburg made Jun 21 at 2017 10:15 AM

2017-06-21T10:15:50-04:00

Response by LTJG Don Biscoe made Jun 22 at 2017 3:17 PM

2017-06-22T15:17:25-04:00

CM for dress violation? Seems extreme.

Response by CPO Mike Rowe made Jun 23 at 2017 1:48 AM

2017-06-23T01:48:53-04:00

The soldier had nothing to lose since he was already at a court martial. Leadership should have conducted a uniform inspection before letting the soldier show up at a court martial in the wrong uniform.

Response by SFC Ian Lumgair made Jun 23 at 2017 11:28 AM

2017-06-23T11:28:47-04:00

The correct response is keep your cool. Tell the civilian to wait just a second. Inform the service member that you will be filing charges against in addition to the current charges. Inform your paralegal that you will need a witness statement from them. Start the process immediately.

Response by LTC Ray Morris made Jun 23 at 2017 1:20 PM

2017-06-23T13:20:55-04:00

He'd have had a second Courts Martial to worry about for Disrespect and Disobeying a Direct Order. Write it up and present it. Let the General do what he gets paid for, and make the decision. Simple. Get a clue Captain. Army regs are pretty clear on those aspects.
Ray LTC (r) Special Forces

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 23 at 2017 8:38 PM

2017-06-23T20:38:32-04:00

Would of lost my cool this generation im involved with sucks ass I hate you all I wish I was born in the 60s

Response by SPC Chuck Ousley made Jun 23 at 2017 9:30 PM

2017-06-23T21:30:00-04:00

The same other with the added charges of conduct unbecoming and insubordination. The more they acted out the more charges they would accumulate.

Response by SGT Timothy Kuehlman made Jun 25 at 2017 8:34 AM

2017-06-25T08:34:24-04:00

He is already getting a court marshal
Lock his ass at attention have him answer
And tell that unsat civilian to shut up and it down

Response by SGT Paul Laprise made Jun 25 at 2017 12:00 PM

2017-06-25T12:00:44-04:00

Out back with sergeant wood line

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2017 6:55 PM

2017-06-25T18:55:54-04:00

Dealing with civilians can be tough. Like service members, most of our civilian workforce are the cream of the crop. But, just like those in uniform, you have a few monsters.

The problem is, the military gives us a way to deal with the bad apples in our own ranks. The unions keep us from being able to effectively do so with the civil servants.

Response by SSgt Michael Bailey made Jun 25 at 2017 7:54 PM

2017-06-25T19:54:18-04:00

What the hell made even a civilian think it was ok to interrupt or disrupt court-martial proceedings?

Response by SFC Charles Kauffman made Jun 25 at 2017 10:42 PM

2017-06-25T22:42:18-04:00

First of all, you have a lot of nerve spouting off about correcting a soldier when your photo shows you wearing improper headgear while in utilities. Secondly, you should have tactfully informed the civilian employee that this was an Army matter and you were acting as an NCO, and asked her to return to her duties. The fact that you didn't shows that you weren't confident in YOUR correctness.

Response by PO2 Richard C. made Jun 26 at 2017 1:22 AM

2017-06-26T01:22:55-04:00

Hopefully, it was his court martial and he copped the same attitude with the judge. I love the way stupid people with attitudes always help themselves out in legal situations. It's like they have this thought process that goes something like "I wonder how I can make my bad situation even worse?" As for how you should deal with it - I don't know that there is a proper response unless you could pile on more offenses to complicate the a-hole's life even more. You know, help him out a little bit with making bad even worse.

Response by PO2 William Rogers made Jun 26 at 2017 10:26 AM

2017-06-26T10:26:58-04:00

Reprimanded and civilian in writing, and another charge to the soldiering question. And don't get off his back. And I got a write up in the face zone until they can egg knowledge you don't give me an option don't give me any room to move. That individual need to learn what it means to show respect to people obviously a freaking snowflake who need to go to a safe zone her some crap like that.

Response by LTC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2017 1:51 PM

2017-06-26T13:51:28-04:00

I would have had had him thrown back into the "brig" and rescheduled his hearing as many times as necessary. Also, I'm sure that another NJP and more money taken from him would correct that attitude.

Response by PO1 Mike Doll made Jun 26 at 2017 2:37 PM

2017-06-26T14:37:25-04:00

The civilian was interfering with the counseling session. I would inform that person professionally. I would then finish my counseling in secluded area (an empty office, or further away from others).

Response by PO1 Rob Fromeyer made Jun 26 at 2017 2:51 PM

2017-06-26T14:51:03-04:00

I haven't witnessed a court martial, only an NJP, however, correct me if I'm wrong here, a court martial is a proper legal proceeding. Couldn't the soldier being tried be arrested for contempt and sent to the brig for however many days?

Response by MSgt Brian Potvin made Jun 26 at 2017 3:19 PM

2017-06-26T15:19:19-04:00

Its hard to answer this definitively without more info. But in a general sense, as long as you were being professional while correcting the soldier, you could have professionally asked the civilian to let you handle your business to square that Soldier away. Then turn your attention back to the Soldier to finish the on-the-spot correction you were making.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Jun 26 at 2017 3:23 PM

2017-06-26T15:23:07-04:00

Time for a good old fashioned smoke session or further charges for failure to obey.

Response by CWO4 George Scruggs made Jun 26 at 2017 4:01 PM

2017-06-26T16:01:10-04:00

Puthimon report, curtail his liberty for the weekend and have him drop and give me 20.

Response by SP5 William McCurtis made Jun 26 at 2017 4:59 PM

2017-06-26T16:59:40-04:00

In my day, I would "invited" him behind the barracks....can't now. If allowed, maybe point it out to the board, with suggestion of prison time. He has NO respect for you, the uniform, or the "Oath" he swore. HARD LABOR, then, retrial for original offense.

Response by Sgt Lowell Tackett made Jun 26 at 2017 6:05 PM

2017-06-26T18:05:40-04:00

Let's take this highly challenging event out of its' stated context, and place it instead into a hypothetical situation: In a very tense and threatening combat situation, a soldier (generically speaking) is ordered to effect some action that will materially enhance the "friendlies" predicament, be it "get this machine gun over there...!" or whatever. Said soldier decides to cop an attitude, stick hands in pockets, and ignore the order and its' author. Falling back on similar experiences in "the rear" said superior begins to wring hands, vacillate and studiously consider options, all whilst the battle rages on around them and begins to fall to the adversary's advantage. "Oh, woe is me, what to do - that will be fair and just to all involved and not upset feelings...?!" I recall a video recently interviewing a WWII vet who'd served under Chesty Puller (if you don't know who that is, never mind...), and begged to not follow an order in direct conflict with a higher-command directive. Lt. Col. Puller responded, "Well son, if you refuse this order you may or may not get a courts martial, but you will DEFINITELY get a bullet from my .45...!" For crying out loud people -- folks in uniform are WAR FIGHTERS, and they had better be ready to accept unpleasant orders instantly, or understand that they will suffer swift and memorable consequences. Lives - and battles - depend on this principle. Put the damned kid gloves, and the "touchy-feely" mentality away, and become an effective military again!!

Response by COL Billy Langdon made Jun 26 at 2017 6:07 PM

2017-06-26T18:07:29-04:00

Turn him over to a couple of big drill sergeants for remedial training. If that don't work there is always a court marshal and long confinement at hard labor. Then kick him or her out of the military dishonorably.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2017 6:41 PM

2017-06-26T18:41:35-04:00

Depends on if this SM is "salvageable" or not. If so, then it's time to stop worrying about him failing to properly cow tow and start providing some of that "Direction, Motivation, and Purpose" we've heard so much about. If not, then it's time to start the separation process for a General Discharge.

Response by 1stSgt Eugene Harless made Jun 26 at 2017 8:21 PM

2017-06-26T20:21:38-04:00

You can't make Chicken Salad out of Chicken Shit. Corrective action and counseling only works when someone is receptive. Being that the soldier was there for a CM, don't worry about winning that small battle of authority. He is going to lose the war in a very big way.

Response by PO3 Andrew Kelly made Jun 26 at 2017 10:07 PM

2017-06-26T22:07:04-04:00

While not directly answering the question two incidents that directly relate to this situation come to mind. The first was no surprise to anyone other than the fact the sailor in question went as far as he did. The latter took everyone one by surprise almost every step of the way.

The first case occurred while I was briefly stationed at NAS Key West for FRAMP training. We were at the squadron for the day getting hands on training on our bird when it was announced that all personnel were to tie up whatever they were doing and stand to attention to orders. As it turned out the CO made it SOP to hold Captain's Mast in the hanger space so that everyone knew exactly what occurred first hand and were aware what to expect if ever they had to be the subject or a witness at a future proceedings. Most of the individuals presented themselves properly and in their Sunday best and were disposed of quickly and fairly. Then his turn came.

The first thing you noticed was that his summer crackerjacks looked like someone had used them to wash their car. He was wearing boondockers and his cover was several shades away from white.

He sauntered to his facing point and kind of swung through his turn coming up to his point and stood there at a slouch. It took the CMC two attempts to get him to uncover and present himself and then the CMC began to read the charges. For most of the subjects this stage had been fairly quick covering one or two charges, not in this case. The charges took close to 5 minutes to read beginning with over a hundred UA charges and ending with theft, possession, and assault charges. We watched as the CO looked this kid up and down and composed himself. I will try to repeat this as close as I can with over 30 years gone past.
"Son, it is obvious that you no longer wish to be in my Navy and frankly I find myself in agreement. But along the way you have decided to inflict on your shipmates a great deal of harm and disrespect and I think that should be answered before you part company with us. At this point in the proceeding I normally offer you the option of having your case heard by court marshal but in your case I am taking that choice away from you. It is not within the authority given to me for these proceedings to award you with correction to match the contempt you have heaped on my Navy. It is so ordered that you be held over until such time as a special court marshal can be convened."

By the time as the court marshal was convened I had transferred on to my command but some individuals who transferred a month or so later informed us that the young man would be a guest at a certain institution in Kansas for at least the next 5 years.

This incident mark the absolute height of disrespect I witnessed during my service.

As I said the second took everyone by surprise. We had gotten a young rent-a-crow in fresh from AFTA and FRAMP schools. He showed great promise both militarily and professionally. He flew through his Collateral Duty training fairly quickly and managed to place highly on his exams for AT2 and got frocked in the first increment. Our Division Chief was taking him under his wing and lining him up for the courses and qualifications he would need down the road. Soon after he moved into the PO2 quarters it all came apart. Twice a month the XO drew two numbers out of his hat and around a 5th of the command got to pee in a bottle. This month was our wonder kid's turn and unfortunately he came up positive. They retest as SOP and it was confirmed. Since he lived in the barracks a health and welfare was conducted and they came up with about 2 oz. of pot. Given his clean record the command decided to treat is as a simple possession case and everyone in the command knew the score on that count. DO your time, take your licks and the command allowed you to pick up and move on with no further retribution official or otherwise. He went to Captain's Mast and then it got weird. First, despite the fact that they were only applying the lesser charge of possession he opted for a court marshal, he then opted for a trial by his peers. And just as if he had decided to really stir things up he waived his JAG defender and brought a civilian lawyer in from the states. (Oh, BTW, we were in Spain at the time.)
Since he had decided to wave off the easy path NIS (This was before it was changed to NCIS) decided to do a full investigation. They found at least three people who admitted to having received pot from the subject so the charges went from simple possession to possession with intent to distribute and distribution.
His trial went predictably and then he handed out the cherry on this bizarre treat. In keeping with SOP after he was found guilty of all charges he was asked if he wanted to make a statement before sentencing. What came next took about 20 minutes and over 50 pages to record in the proceedings. He challenged the right of the military to make pot illegal and the board's right to pass judgement on him, and those were the high points. Needless to say this young man got to spend time in Leavenworth for an extended time as well. No one ever could make any sense of how this promising up and comer suddenly seemed to lose his mind and turn a simple administrative punishment that would have likely been a road bump in his career and turn it into a stretch in Leavenworth.

Response by PO1 Frank Haynes made Jun 26 at 2017 11:37 PM

2017-06-26T23:37:59-04:00

Tell the civilian to mind their own business and leave you to yours.

Response by PO1 Edward Pate made Jun 27 at 2017 7:00 AM

2017-06-27T07:00:21-04:00

In the most professional way possible I would have told the civilian to please mind their own business and allow you to do your military duty. I cannot speak for today's military but in my days in the military that individual would have been escorted to a private area for some "counseling"

Response by SGT Dale Jackson Sr. made Jun 27 at 2017 8:41 AM

2017-06-27T08:41:49-04:00

Back in my day, I would have start reading hi his rights, and pressed more charges. I would have told the civilian to get bent, this was a military matter. However times have changed

Response by 1SG Jeffrey Mullett made Jun 27 at 2017 9:29 AM

2017-06-27T09:29:40-04:00

Your comment doesn't say whether the Soldier was the one BEING Court-martialed, however, I think it is safe to assume he was. To that end, I wouldn't think it too much of a stretch to understand why the Soldier was being court martialed. It didn't do you any good to get upset with him, since I suspect he didn't give a damn what you thought. He was probably enjoying the fact that he got you riled up.
I may have looked him in the eye, and laughed, telling him, he wasn't worth it. Or, ask him if he felt like he needed psychological assistance.
In regard to the civilian, I would have politely addressed her and told her it was none of her business, and if we were being too loud we would move to a more private location. If she had a problem with how I was handling the Soldier, I would return later and discuss it with her in private, or with her supervisor.
I would document the entire episode and add additional counseling to the Soldier's record.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 27 at 2017 11:30 AM

2017-06-27T11:30:54-04:00

This is why we should be allowed to just open handed smack someone. Once a day or something. But I bet if you smacked this kid upside the head you would have his attention lol

Response by SFC Gilberto Salinas made Jun 27 at 2017 11:53 AM

2017-06-27T11:53:48-04:00

I experienced something like that and my response was... "Excuse me, last time I checked I am the one in uniform!"

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 27 at 2017 12:10 PM

2017-06-27T12:10:24-04:00

I would have lit that civilian up! Plan and simple.. not her business anymore. I would have made sure that the soldier also got an added charge to what ever else he was facing..

Response by MSgt Terry RaZor made Jun 27 at 2017 12:27 PM

2017-06-27T12:27:23-04:00

Taken the individual to the stockade, trial in absentia, additional charges for insubordination.

Response by SPC Ian Miller made Jun 27 at 2017 1:48 PM

2017-06-27T13:48:05-04:00

Wall to wall counseling is still illegal right? Sigh.... My Army is dead.

Response by PO2 Rick Godejohn made Jun 27 at 2017 2:51 PM

2017-06-27T14:51:33-04:00

That's easy. You stop talking. You inform the judge that the defendant has reported in contempt. Have the judge convey the consequences. It's not on you to make him comply. If he insists on being insubordinate, then you allow him to face the consequences.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Jun 27 at 2017 3:17 PM

2017-06-27T15:17:19-04:00

I had a sergeant bring a young soldier to me while I was the company XO at Tripler Army Medical Center. He was walking outside without his cover. Just before I could begin talking to him I received a phone call from a ward to tell me that he had been sent because he was harassing burn victims (from the explosion and fire on the USS Forestall. When I confronted him, he gave me attitude. He expected to get away with it because the chief of the neuro-psychology ward was of the opinion that bad boys should be treated rather than court martialed. With a little judicious finagling, we got past that medical officer and I arranged transfer to the stockade at Schofield Barracks. I gave a .45 to the sergeant who was going to escort him and loaded it in front of the miscreant. I then told the sergeant that if he shot the young man on the way there, I would cover for him. The change in attitude among all the troops at the hospital was astonishing.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 27 at 2017 3:36 PM

2017-06-27T15:36:35-04:00

and THIS is why I am not in favor of requiring military service of all young people. If we have these discipline problems with an all-volunteer force, imagine how broken it would be with a force ten times as big who did not elect to be there....

Response by SPC Kris Berry made Jun 27 at 2017 4:00 PM

2017-06-27T16:00:10-04:00

Written him up and given a statement to his CO. Article 15 sounds appropriate!

Response by SP5 Edwin Overstreet made Jun 27 at 2017 4:48 PM

2017-06-27T16:48:30-04:00

Just a lowly E5 here but in my opinion an E6 shouldn't feel the need to uniform check anybody, unless it happens to be a member of his squad or someone else under his direct chain of command (detail, escort, or something like that.)

Response by PO1 Buddy Summers made Jun 27 at 2017 5:24 PM

2017-06-27T17:24:25-04:00

If he was being mustard out or discharged he more than likely doesn't give a crap what the uniform of the day is in court.

Response by SPC Kaitlyn Novy made Jun 27 at 2017 6:55 PM

2017-06-27T18:55:35-04:00

I'd probably excuse myself to first speak in private with the civilian and let the person know that they chose to work on a military institution and being prior service, should know how a military base is run. Than say if you want to continue the conversation, we can with superiors later but for now I'm going back to handle this soldier the way that it is done in the military.

Response by Maj Joe Sitler made Jun 27 at 2017 6:57 PM

2017-06-27T18:57:17-04:00

I find it interesting most of these comments center on the low hanging fruit - disrespect from a SM awaiting court martial.....but I think the real question is how do you deal with an idiot civilian, former military? (I can see why). who seems to lack the understanding of why they have a job (support the war fighter perhaps?). 8 years as enlisted, 22 as an officer and now 8 years as a DoD civilian employee, I would say this....you handled the SM situation correctly...walk away and cool away. The civilian? That depends on what their job is. I would determine who the supervisor was and, with a little tact, "state my case" for the justifiable disruption in the aggreaved civilians work place, apologize then reminder her why she has a job. V/r and still serving ...MAJ (R) Joe Sitler

Response by PO3 Terry Dyer made Jun 27 at 2017 7:30 PM

2017-06-27T19:30:00-04:00

I would have handed him his ass

Response by CW4 Angel C. made Jun 27 at 2017 9:47 PM

2017-06-27T21:47:16-04:00

Nothing says you can't tell the civilian (retired or vet) to mind his dang business! When you're within the scope of your duties to discipline a Soldier don't let anyone take that away from you.

Response by 2LT Ronald Reimer made Jun 28 at 2017 3:39 AM

2017-06-28T03:39:26-04:00

.45 ACP to the SM's left temple. Game, Set, Match.

Response by Vonice LarsenBailey made Jun 28 at 2017 3:41 AM

2017-06-28T03:41:21-04:00

WOW! Just wow! I may or may not witness soldiers being corrected and their feelings hurt on a daily basis. If it was me I would have had a difficult time telling the civilian to shut her pie hole. Evidently she has forgotten our job is to support the mission not interfere. I look forward to retiring in 10 years, if I don't lose my mind first. I can understand the exodus of seasoned personnel that's for sure. We have somebody headed for the school house to be a DI. We are buying him a bag of lolly pops for his new recruits because after all they need a lolly and a pat on the head before they get tucked into bed. I went through basic and AIT 30 plus years ago the way it is now, I am fairly certain I could make it again no problem.

Response by PV2 David Jaeger made Jun 28 at 2017 5:02 AM

2017-06-28T05:02:26-04:00

Court martial disobeying a direct order

Response by SFC Michael Phillips made Jun 28 at 2017 7:41 AM

2017-06-28T07:41:57-04:00

Thank the Lord that I have retired. I was in Alaska 3 years ago eating breakfast inside the dining facility in civilian clothes and a PFC politely asked me to remove my ball cap indoors

Response by LCpl Roger Garcia made Jun 28 at 2017 8:15 AM

2017-06-28T08:15:22-04:00

In said situation, you go "Gunny Hartman" on them.

Response by MSgt Kerry Lundy made Jun 28 at 2017 9:45 AM

2017-06-28T09:45:50-04:00

Classic example of why I retired 31 years ago. The NCO authority was being slowly but surely stripped away. This authority was being destroyed by senior NCO's fraternizing with junior and mid grade officers and lower grade enlisted. It seemed to be reaching the point where many were on first name basis publicly and while in uniform. I had many officers and CMSGT's that I was also friends with but I always kept that arm's length separation of knowing when and where. Inthis case I would have put the person in a brace and explained the facts of military life to him. I would have taken the civilian's information and up channeled the incident of interfering in my military duties and had the CO or civilian personnel handle it. Remember sometimes the most powerful weapon you have is the pen. Just make sure you have the facts right.

Response by CPL John Crouch made Jun 28 at 2017 10:09 AM

2017-06-28T10:09:21-04:00

Where in the hell was a court martial proceedings taking place with civilians trying to work? Venue should have been appropriate first of all and then the proper reaction could've taken place! Hooaaah!

Response by Cpl Todd Page made Jun 28 at 2017 11:35 AM

2017-06-28T11:35:43-04:00

I would have had a court martial next. I never understood this when I was in, sure not gonna stand for it now. I'm glad I am not in anymore, this PC world, is kicking the military's ass.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 28 at 2017 12:05 PM

2017-06-28T12:05:37-04:00

Tell the civilian, if she interrupt me again, it will be the last thing she does here.

Response by SSG Michael Nantz made Jun 28 at 2017 12:35 PM

2017-06-28T12:35:57-04:00

Where was his chain of command. Doesn't he suppose to have a NCO escort if he is confined?

Response by CW5 Randall Hirsch made Jun 28 at 2017 2:00 PM

2017-06-28T14:00:45-04:00

Jack that person up and let them know who the boss is in that situation.

Response by SP5 Paul Riley made Jun 28 at 2017 3:20 PM

2017-06-28T15:20:51-04:00

I'd start out with a counseling statement and I would figure out some really shitty extra duty, every time the soldier has a problem with my authority I'd right another counseling statement. All it takes is 3 counseling statements to put a soldier up for a article 15. I had a problem with one soldier during OIF, I was a white Sgt. and he was black and told me because I was a white Sgt he wouldn't do anything. He continued to be a problem, but I was persistent and he lost his rank. Am glad I am out of the Army because it used to be being an NCO was easy but now the bears aren't afraid of the park rangers anymore, the Army has gotten to racial.

Response by Maj David Kraklow made Jun 28 at 2017 4:47 PM

2017-06-28T16:47:53-04:00

Done! Charge sheet thrown at the Sgt and a free car ride to the BN CO's office. Goodbye E-5, hello E-4!

Response by SCPO Chris Kirkwood made Jun 28 at 2017 5:31 PM

2017-06-28T17:31:03-04:00

Captain, do you think the Soldier was at the court-martial because he was good a following orders?
I suggest you leave that situation to the Sr Non-com and get back to being an officer.

Response by LTC Russ Smith made Jun 28 at 2017 6:44 PM

2017-06-28T18:44:00-04:00

Write him up for disrespect, improper uniform, disobeying order, etc.

Response by Jerry Rivas made Jun 28 at 2017 7:31 PM

2017-06-28T19:31:09-04:00

Tell the civilian to fuck off.

Response by 1SG Clifford Barnes made Jun 28 at 2017 7:54 PM

2017-06-28T19:54:18-04:00

Just maintain your cool calm and professional demeanor and let him have it with a smile. It works most of the time Hooah

Response by PVT Andrew Burd made Jun 28 at 2017 10:16 PM

2017-06-28T22:16:55-04:00

"I was at a Court Martial" ..promote this man to Captain Obvious!

Response by Sgt Robert Jolley made Jun 28 at 2017 10:49 PM

2017-06-28T22:49:46-04:00

It really depends. Infantry would require immediate wall-to-wall counseling, if not by one NCO, then by two, three, or whatever number of NCOs necessary. The more civilized surroundings, the more necessity to bite one's tongue, control temper, and begin to discuss the meaning of Articles 91 and 92 of the UCMJ.

Response by SSgt Michael Bailey made Jun 28 at 2017 11:59 PM

2017-06-28T23:59:09-04:00

Why was the presiding officer of the court-martial allowing a civilian to disrupt the proceedings with some petty BS like that? Not to disrespect the Army, but I know exactly what a Marine presiding officer would have done in that situation.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2017 8:37 AM

2017-06-29T08:37:03-04:00

I would refer to FM 22-102.

Response by SP6 Sean Briggs made Jun 29 at 2017 10:03 AM

2017-06-29T10:03:50-04:00

Immediate Corrective Training, IE: Smoke his A$$, right there in the courtroom! Then counselling and petition for extra duty, along with a psych eval!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2017 11:11 AM

2017-06-29T11:11:30-04:00

I would have automatically written the Soldier up for disrespect and sent it throw the chain of command.

Response by SPC David Lyons made Jun 29 at 2017 11:17 AM

2017-06-29T11:17:41-04:00

IMHO... Where was the judge during this? If a civilian disrespected an NCO correcting a soldier why didn't the judge jump down said civilians throat? Judge controls the Court Room and the civilian certainly works for them.

Response by SGT Stephan Jennings made Jun 29 at 2017 1:01 PM

2017-06-29T13:01:13-04:00

I'm glad I didn't have soldiers under my supervision that were this disrespectful. The civilians I worked around (Okinawa) never interfered with us in our duties. Given how I was then, it would've been hard for me to just walk away in the face of total insubordination. We didn't keep soldiers like this in our unit. You were doing the "duffel bag drag" by COB!

Response by SSG Steven Stroup made Jun 29 at 2017 2:14 PM

2017-06-29T14:14:04-04:00

There are 2 correction to deal with here. First was the soldier's disrespect, then the civilian's disrespect. If it was me I would have informed the civilian that they work at the pleasure of the Military and could be replaced by a uniformed service member who would pick up a weapon if needed and still do the job there job. A civilian may not have to salute but will show respect even to the lowest ranking service member. As for the soldier I would inform them that any display of disrespect can be punished either with current charges or separately.
I was in the military when they as they started to replace special duty military personnel with civilians and it was a rocky road especially for security. We had to replace the civilians who didn't show up for work with soldiers and when the Military commander felt a need to adjust the requirements they didn't understand that they had to follow the military commanders instructions to the letter and could not just do what they wanted.

Response by SSgt Kenn Miller made Jun 29 at 2017 2:50 PM

2017-06-29T14:50:52-04:00

Time for an Artical 15 and a reminder to Civilian to mind there won beeswax but thats the new military a bunch of pusse*'s

Response by PVT Mark Zehner made Jun 29 at 2017 6:03 PM

2017-06-29T18:03:30-04:00

What is going on with the military when I was in the best thing they would have done was demote you the worst is demote you and give you a beat down! I'm not saying beat the guy but you were terrified of disrespecting a superior officer!

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2017 7:33 PM

2017-06-29T19:33:00-04:00

The first problem is nobody tore his head off and shit down his neck for putting his friggin hands in his pockets. I would have have told that civilian to fuck off, and then carried on with the ass chewing that was about to ensue.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Jun 29 at 2017 7:51 PM

2017-06-29T19:51:30-04:00

Paralegal?? Some kind of Legal Rep? How can they develop leaders if they put crap in your way?

Response by SPC Rick LaBonte made Jun 30 at 2017 7:16 AM

2017-06-30T07:16:50-04:00

If the courts martial wasn't already directed at that individual, that was a stupid move, if it was, that's more material in his jacket. I don't know about you, but the fewer disciplinary items in a jacket the better! I seen a PV2 end his career in two words. He showed up drunk for a formation, that could've ended it alone, but my section had NCO's that had been young and stupid, my squad leader was going start with a counseling form, and since this was the first offense leave it up to our section chief what happened next. He was making it clear he was extremely pissed that this kid showed up in that condition ( he was drunk, not hung over) when the PV2 told him to fuck off. Those two words were the difference between a worse case scenario of extra duty and lost pay and a dishonorable discharge!

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2017 3:43 PM

2017-06-30T15:43:33-04:00

Just mind your business and you won't get disrespected. If he's not your soldier then leave it alone because at the end of the day you don't know what's going on with him. People don't know how to mind there business and surprised that they get disrespected because of it. You don't need to know his business your not his nco. If he is wrong let his chain of command handle that

Response by SSG Omar Dejesus made Jul 1 at 2017 8:43 AM

2017-07-01T08:43:02-04:00

Told him to leave and change and let the proper personnel that it would be a delay in proceedings get the bailiff to escort him out

Response by CPO Gregory Campbell made Jul 2 at 2017 5:28 AM

2017-07-02T05:28:48-04:00

I would have corrected the Civilian who stuck their nose where it didn't belong, right then and there. Then l would have continued correcting the Soldier.

Response by Cpl Jeff Ruffing made Jul 4 at 2017 7:52 AM

2017-07-04T07:52:24-04:00

First off, the soldier obviously doesn't give a damn. So, trying to make him give a damn is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It pisses you and the pig off. You asked the question and he got mouthy. Could be a defense mechanism, could be something else. He chose to disrespect you. Ok, SNS disrespected an officer, wore the wrong uniform ( direct disobedience to an order or regulation) so, its more charges. More charges mean more punishment. He/ she was obviously a hard headed individual. You just add the charges and continue on. As long as the person wasn't being violent toward you or your paralegal, as long as immediate bodily harm wasn't present, Charlie Mike. Sometimes it takes an officer to maintain his/ her cool and set the example. At least he will remember your professionalism and how you handled him/ her. (If and when that individual wakes up and realizes how much of a a-hole they were) I've seen the attitudes of the millennials . Most of them have a suck butt work ethic and major attitude due to piss poor parenting. Not your problem. You are in a position of power due to your hard work and education. Follow suit. Be calm and lead when all others are falling down around you. That's your job. I know it pisses you off, no one regardless of rank or walk of life likes being disrespected. Do the opposite, kill them with professionalism and the pen.

Response by SFC Freddie Porter made Jul 5 at 2017 6:07 PM

2017-07-05T18:07:29-04:00

I don't know the MOS specifically of the poster but, I assume with a paralegal assigned you're an attorney and thus, familiar with UCMJ and it's implementation. The actions of the SM were not silent insubordination but overt, screaming loudly, outright insubordination. I would have instructed the paralegal to hold the SM where he is using any means necessary and called for the MPs (non-infantry types don't usually do wall-to-wall counseling) and had the SM handcuffed and arrested on the spot. Overt disrespect to any officer is punishable by UCMJ (you probably know the relevant UCMJ sections better than I) and in a corporate environment such as a court house is best handled by the legal process (when non-combat arms personnel are involved). Make no mistake about it Marines, Army combat arms NCOs still handle problem children appropriately. But, this was a different environment and JAG officer, never go into a correction mode with any soldier unprepared to use the necessary force to ensure compliance with your orders. This is the Army, not the Girl Scouts. You have to be able and ready to enforce any order you give otherwise, never issue an order you know you cannot enforce or will be followed.

Response by SFC Freddie Porter made Jul 5 at 2017 6:17 PM

2017-07-05T18:17:59-04:00

Oh, and as for the civilian, prior service, look at him in his eyes and tell him Togo back to his office and stand by for a corrective dicession. Get his immediate supervisor and ensure the point is made hat a civilian needs to stay out of military matters while in a military environment, or go find a new job

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2017 9:06 PM

2017-07-05T21:06:41-04:00

At his court martial? what else do you think you can do to him a counseling statement for being out of uniform? If you have already done your worst to some one i.e. Court Martial you really don't have anymore stick to use on them do you? It is silly to threaten them further. So you need to take another tack (sailing term) with them. Also consider this YOU are his ENEMY you are trying to DESTROY this person in a Court-Martial if you want respect you should look somewhere else this may just be business to you but to him it is not.

Response by PO2 Robert Cuminale made Jul 6 at 2017 9:23 AM

2017-07-06T09:23:38-04:00

How about informing the rest of us who weren't in Army what ACUs and ASUs are?

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2017 12:40 PM

2017-07-06T12:40:19-04:00

I have to assume the disrespectful Soldier was the subject of the Court-Martial? If so, it seems pretty obvious to me that you let the court handle the SM, and if that doesn't work out - you have the Paralegal as a witness. You then go to the CoC and start NJP.

Response by SSG Lawrence Jessup made Jul 10 at 2017 7:47 AM

2017-07-10T07:47:16-04:00

While DROSing at Dix in the mid 80's I came across a similar situation. A young female PFC was filing my transfer paperwork was wearing a gold cross on the outside of her fatigues. I told her while I respect and appreciate her faith, she needs to place the cross under her shirt as it is not part of military issue or uniform. The immediate indignant look followed by "you looking to get your paperwork lost, Staff Sargent"? took me back. I ignored the comment and proceeded out. I then located her First Sargent and explained the situation. He said "oh that's just how she is, besides, this is clerical job, its not like the real army your in". All I could say was wow, did you a First Sargent just say that? I said thank you and then proceeded to my next duty station in the "Real Army".

Response by CPL William Spence made Jul 11 at 2017 10:56 AM

2017-07-11T10:56:47-04:00

I had to read this posting twice, so forgive me as my time in the military was long ago. The soldier reported to his court-martial dressed in fatigues (ASU and ACU are new terms to me)!? If I understood correctly, this soldier had and has a problem you were addressing, and that civilian didn't need to butt in.
What was the outcome of the court-martial?

Response by Cpl Phillip Brame made Jul 14 at 2017 2:49 PM

2017-07-14T14:49:40-04:00

Are you an NCO ? If so then you are in violation for not doing your job. Was the other soldier in custody ? There are a lot of scenarios that could have taken place there. Generally as an NCO you should have pulled this service member aside and immediately put him at ease then made the correction if he did not adhere then counseling is in order.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 18 at 2017 5:20 PM

2017-07-18T17:20:44-04:00

Being of sound mind and body, apparently, said soldier being court martialed was not of sound mind. Also, being a full time civilian and part time soldier, I have a different view interspersed with the memory of being a full time soldier. That view says that yelling is pointless if the person you are trying to communicate with is not affected by your tone. Respect cannot be ordered, it must be earned, and yelling, regardless of your rank, is more likely to lose respect, than earn respect. Why was the soldier being court-martialed?

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made Jul 20 at 2017 6:43 PM

2017-07-20T18:43:02-04:00

Calmly tell the civilian that this was a military matter, if that did not work, ignore the civilian, as you do not work for her, nor are you answerable to her. Second, as to the Soldier, was he the one being Courts Martialed? If so, he has to face the judge out of uniform, which will definitely not go well for him, as for the disrespect, nothing is stopping you from formally counseling that Soldier, asking for his his unit or other lawful actions, including and up to notifying the MP's, depending on how the soldier would escalate the situation.

You definitely have at least two violations of the UCMJ, disrespecting a NCO, and failure to obey lawful/direct Orders.

Response by MAJ John Douglas made Jul 21 at 2017 8:39 AM

2017-07-21T08:39:37-04:00

My answer to the civilian: Move away, this is not your business. Then back to the soldier, You have ____minutes to get in the proper uniform and be back here. If that fails to get through to the soldier, if he is in my unit, he gets an Art 15 and if he is not in mine, I report him to his unit. Don't back down to "cool off." "Smoke" him.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2017 3:54 PM

2017-07-25T15:54:26-04:00

I'm beginning to see what my Drill SGT were talking about in reference to millenials. I enlisted in the Navy in 07 that was Lee's of problem then but when I went to basic in FT Sill earlier this year yeah the drill sgts always talked about how millenials do nothing but complain and have little respect for anything. I don't think that applies to all but there is more then enough to warrant that distinction

Response by Sgt Arthur Grant made Jul 26 at 2017 12:44 PM

2017-07-26T12:44:22-04:00

Any civilian should respect any and all servicemembers and veterans. The Private looks up to the PFC, the PFC to the Lance-Corporal, and so on. The civilian looks up to the Private.

Response by 1SG James Matthews made Aug 2 at 2017 7:05 PM

2017-08-02T19:05:57-04:00

Get the name of the civilian and file an official complaint to her superior. Bring charges against the soldier.

Response by LTC John Wilson made Aug 5 at 2017 9:59 AM

2017-08-05T09:59:31-04:00

Obviously the soldier in question is not military material. Any attempts to save his sorry butt are for naught! Forgive me but I am boiling, today's army is a volunteer force. He (the soldier) didn't have to be in the Army. He wasn't drafted. He took an oath and then he violates it. I would have added charges and ensure this soldier learned what a stockade looked like. You can't let it ride, because it is for the good of the service. As for the civilian, I would address the matter with his superior and also let him know I didn't like his disrespect. If we mistakenly let it slide, it hurts the military in a big way and we can't have that in our forces.

Response by SPC Seany Weaver made Aug 6 at 2017 1:58 PM

2017-08-06T13:58:38-04:00

Some soldiers just suck. How they made it this far in service is amazing.

Response by MSG Robert Alphonse made Aug 6 at 2017 6:54 PM

2017-08-06T18:54:35-04:00

And we care what a civilian says because...?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2017 4:54 AM

2017-08-09T04:54:04-04:00

I think that he was at a courts martial and the potential outcome. The Soldier did care what anyone was going to say. I have run into that same situation with a Soldier blowing off what I said. Ultimately all you can do is document, report and eventually discharge to Soldier. It is this generation that doesn't care about discipline, and their supervisors as a whole. They hate being told what to do. SO I have counseled and documented and working on chapter paperwork.

As for the civilian I would have put that person in their place and notified their supervisor.

Response by Cpl Don "GUNNY" Miller made Aug 22 at 2017 11:59 PM

2017-08-22T23:59:54-04:00

I am old school, let me give you an example Gunny Highway and Swede in Heartbreak Ridge

Response by MAJ Carey O'Neal made Aug 23 at 2017 12:44 PM

2017-08-23T12:44:02-04:00

I would have not have put my hands on him, but I would have called the MPs and had THEM put their hands on him and sent him to the brig!

Response by SCPO Thomas Sheridan made Aug 26 at 2017 6:43 AM

2017-08-26T06:43:08-04:00

I retired in 1994, what was a civilian doing at a court martial in the first place?
After my initial response I would have been in the brig awaiting my own court martial.

Response by SP5 Norman McGill made Aug 27 at 2017 9:36 PM

2017-08-27T21:36:06-04:00

I think you did right to walk away and cool off. The soldier was already in trouble so I would have just let him go in the wrong uniform, explained myself if the subject came up, and let the judges do their work. A guilty attitude if I ever saw one.

Response by SPC Samantha McHugh made Aug 27 at 2017 11:00 PM

2017-08-27T23:00:26-04:00

Okay, where are the stress cards for the Soldier being court-martialed? I guess he was putting his hands in his pockets to locate them.

Response by CPO Tim Yorty made Aug 28 at 2017 8:49 AM

2017-08-28T08:49:29-04:00

Does "at a court martial" imply it was for the CPL? If so, can you expect any less professional behavior from the one being court-martialed?

The civilian interrupting seems to imply the correction being given to the CPL was loud, maybe too loud - who knows, I wasn't there, but the civilian should learn to mind their own business. Anyway, you felt disrespected - by whom? It sounds like by both the CPL and Civilian. What did you expect? Just walking away with a word in response means you accepted it. Sorry.

I would have told the CPL they were bringing disrespect on the service, and on themself by 1) not following clear instructions about something as simple as the correct uniform and 2) by their lack of commitment to their own oath of enlistment - where it says "will obey the orders of the officers appointed over me..."

The Civilian - yeah, ex-military, and clearly shows part of what is wrong in this country today. I would have taken them aside and reminded them that there is no expiration date on that oath they also took when entering the military and in the future to think BEFORE the open their mouth to any active duty military member in the performance of their duty and prove their own stupidity.

USN (Ret.)

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2017 4:46 PM

2017-09-03T16:46:28-04:00

I'd rip him a new A-hole if it was a Marine, but in the Army, I guess this shit bird didn't give a hoot about respecting you because of your attitude and yelling at him in front of everyone to include a former soldier who informed you in a polite manner to tone it down. I'm not saying you were wrong, but maybe the way you handled the situation could have been more professionally done.

Response by Cpl Jerry Burns made Sep 5 at 2017 6:07 PM

2017-09-05T18:07:59-04:00

1. Again tell him to get into the proper uniform
2. Tell the civilian in a pleasant manner, it is none of her business and to quietly leave the location.
3. Tell the paralegal to cite the time and date, and to record the exact conversation.
4. Tell the soldier one more time that unless he relents, apologizes and follows the lawful order given. He is looking for Captains Mast (ie. UCMJ discipline).
5. Write the SOB up and go about my business
6. On liberty, look the SOB up and kick his ass from here to China.

Response by SGT James Ford made Sep 11 at 2017 11:32 AM

2017-09-11T11:32:01-04:00

In my day, he would have gotten his ass kicked off the planet. Not saying it was the correct thing to do back then but this is something you didn't see back then.

Response by SGM Edward Sullivan made Sep 11 at 2017 5:57 PM

2017-09-11T17:57:37-04:00

This old retired Sergeant Major would have had a very hard time keeping my Military Bearing. The total, unmitigated, disrespect would have caused me to immediately place said soldier under apprehension for DISRESPECT TO A SENIOR NON COMMISSIONED OFFICER IN THE PERFORMANCE OF HIS DUTY (TO A COMMISSIONED OFFICER for the CPT). Hopefully said troop would resist apprehension so I could USE THE NECESSARY FORCE TO EFFECT THE APPREHENSION. As for the civilian, I would hope when I told her to mind her own business and return to her office or face apprehension also. I have been out for some time but I think the UCMJ is still in force regardless of the PC BS that has taken place in the interim.

Response by SFC Josh Jasmin Runnels made Sep 19 at 2017 6:56 PM

2017-09-19T18:56:29-04:00

I definitely would not have left the situation although I applaud you for knowing when you needed to step out of the situation before you yourself lost your military barring. I would have continued to insure respect was given and told the civilian that she was meddling in a federal situation. Then I would have had it noted to the judge of the situation so that favor would not be in his corner. We have to understand that our military is not a democracy and there is a reason for that. Once we let this worldly B.S. get involved in our military we loose control and the cohesion is no longer there. No successful military has ever succeeded without discipline and cohesion. It has to gel as one.

Response by LTC Ronald Stephens made Sep 24 at 2017 7:49 PM

2017-09-24T19:49:10-04:00

I'm hanging with MSG Sand.

Response by LTC Ronald Stephens made Sep 24 at 2017 7:57 PM

2017-09-24T19:57:22-04:00

Going with MSG Brad Sand on this one. Statement of Charges sent through channels.

Response by Sgt Charles Welling made Sep 25 at 2017 4:31 PM

2017-09-25T16:31:40-04:00

I gotta say this knowing I could get flak, but, why do I read so much of this stuff coming out of the Army? I NEVER saw anyone disrespect an officer while I was an active Marine. I NEVER hear of Marines commenting about the same now or then. It simply was not done! I had a corporal working for me as a Sgt, he would not have dared that nonsense and I would not have dared disrespect the MSgt I worked for. The Cpl did not respond to me quickly enough one day and I read him the riot act and he turned to just as he should have. The Marine Corps does not put up with bull shit, it just puts a sorry ass out. Seems to me the Army has some work to do as regards military operating, it is NOT a Democracy and rank serves a purpose, you need to kick a little more ass instead of trying to get trained people to "understand." And don't give me the "you have not been there crap," my dad was an Army LtCol, I have been there and was in the Guard in high school, not for me, not enough grit and can do attitude, too much bull shit and not enough do it right or else.

Response by PFC Robert Rice made Oct 1 at 2017 2:37 PM

2017-10-01T14:37:15-04:00

I never disrespected authority when I served and still do not. I would smoke the hell out of a soldier if I was In that position.

Response by SPC Fred Scholl made Oct 3 at 2017 10:37 PM

2017-10-03T22:37:12-04:00

First of all you should have ignored the civilian since he had no right interfering. Second, since the soldier ignored orders and did not respect a superior, an article 15 at the least should have followed. If he was a real pain in the ass, call an MP and have him dragged to the brig and charge the appropriate article.

Response by Maj Blake D made Oct 5 at 2017 3:25 PM

2017-10-05T15:25:00-04:00

Several good answers here. I had an experience of disrespect while newly commanding a reserve unit at an annual exercise. I had asked the First Sergeant to take 2 airmen on a detail in a military vehicle. The 1SG said "no" likely as it was late in the day and would have made them late to the chow hall. I asked him again and explained that it needed to be done that day. He replied, "then you do it." I had noted similar responses/ attitudes on occasion by Guard and Reserve members to both officers and NCO leadership over my then 15 years, however never in a command situation. Likely the 1ST did not respect my newly appointed command position. My response was to engage his supervisor, the unit CMS. To my surprise the CMS said "I'm not going to do anything." This was the beginning of my frustration with the Guard unit and led to my eventual exit to the AFRES. In my opinion, if I can't have orders followed during an exercise then I certainly don't want this guy or others unwilling to act on my team during an actual conflict. In retrospect the problem in this case stemmed from fulltime AGR members treating a critical exercise as day to day work at the unit where there is an absence of command leadership. They simply didn't see the difference. This wasn't their fault entirely, they needed clear consistent expectations at the unit command level.

Response by SPC Byron Wells made Oct 8 at 2017 10:01 AM

2017-10-08T10:01:14-04:00

In my opinion this is very disrespectful, newer soldiers just seem to have a different mindset.

Response by TSgt James Carson made Oct 9 at 2017 2:02 PM

2017-10-09T14:02:33-04:00

The UCMJ gives plenty of guidelines and requirements to take place in this matter. YOU, as the supervisor are responsible for discharging your duties to correct this infraction and prevent it from happening again. You may have to look at discharging the guilty individual from the service to keep good order In the military.

Response by CWO2 Shelby DuBois made Oct 11 at 2017 10:24 AM

2017-10-11T10:24:08-04:00

Why does it matter where you were? File more charges against him. Build a case for insubordination. Obviously, there are two people who need to work on leadership skills.

Response by SGT Scott Henderson made Oct 12 at 2017 3:21 PM

2017-10-12T15:21:08-04:00

File a motion for new counsel as that situation would have affected my attitude towards this case; possibly causing me to provide less than adequate defense for my client.

Response by SGT Kyle Bickley made Oct 13 at 2017 7:34 AM

2017-10-13T07:34:52-04:00

You got count marshalled for correcting a trooper? Your nicer then I was! Discipline in the ranks as Paramount in order to complete the mission no matter what the mission. One fool not being able to follow instructions or orders could jeopardize the lives of many in combat, they'll challenge you. You can't have that.

Response by SFC Mark Bailey made Oct 15 at 2017 9:09 PM

2017-10-15T21:09:54-04:00

It is all about being serious...sometimes a flat deep monotone voice is more frightening than any amount of screaming or the threat of physical violence.

I would have looked at the soldier and said very calmly
"Would you prefer to have the next few charges added to your sheet before you walk into the Court Martial or would you prefer to finish this round of UCMJ action before we proceed to a completely new list of charges?"

Before the stupefied PFC could even begin to respond, I would then cut off any response by looking at the MP escorts and say "I'll need a statement from each of you on both this soldiers actions and the disruption caused by that civilian"

In the same deadpan voice I would call out to the civilian to remind her very clearly that she has a job courtesy of the United States Military. I would tell her that her conduct was going to be reported not only to her superiors but to the Post Civilian Personnel Office that had authorized her job in the first place. I would remind her that she needs to be keenly aware of the fact that she needs to stay out of any Military Discipline situation from now on until such time sa she is no longer employed by the US Military.

Response by Capt Joseph Olson made Oct 17 at 2017 8:08 PM

2017-10-17T20:08:56-04:00

Captain, did you never watch the opening scenes of Full Metal Jacket? Didn't you have a legal office NCOIC? Did his First Sergeant not have a phone?
Duting RVN War, I came on active duty as a JAG Captain (with 25 years of experience as a servicr Brat <snicker> ). On Day 1, I got "lip" from an E6 in my office. Between my orders and the NCOIC's implemention we burned respect and obedience back into his soul (hastened his retirement too as it turned out).
You are an officer, you have power, you can do it!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2017 8:55 PM

2017-10-18T20:55:35-04:00

I had a situation somewhat like this and I used my Chain of Command to contact the Soldiers Chain of Command to implement corrective action. Then I received an updated a few days later on what was done to ensure this wouldn’t happen in the future.

Response by SMSgt George Bily made Oct 19 at 2017 11:42 AM

2017-10-19T11:42:13-04:00

Looks like a pussy needs a safe space because his feelings have been hurt. Time to join the Girl Scouts.

Response by SFC James High made Oct 20 at 2017 9:37 AM

2017-10-20T09:37:32-04:00

I would have contacted the SM's 1SG and insist the SM be placed on arrest and restricted to QTRs until the NJP paperwork could be completed. Then for the punishment for the NJP I would have insisted that the SM lose half a month's base pay along with 15 days extra duty. The charge for the NJP would be Insubordination and the specification would have been exactly what took place. As far as what the civilian said it would have been "in one ear and out the other!" but if a response was needed it would have been to inform the civilian to mind their own business because this is a military matter.

Response by PO2 Hank Kaczmarek made Oct 20 at 2017 12:40 PM

2017-10-20T12:40:56-04:00

that's why todays military has gone straight to hell. If a subordinate needs correcting, you correct him. If the turns away from you, TURN HIM BACK. Then write him up for the appropriate charge and let him explain to his CO why he was in the wrong uniform and copping an attitude when called up on it.
I was a Corpsman in the Marines, and depending on my duty status that day I had quite a few different uniforms I could wear. But I wore the one prescribed BY THE PLAN OF THE DAY.

The way things are today, you probably did right by going and cooling off. 40 years ago, it never would have happened in the first place---and if it had, correction would have been SWIFT.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2017 7:12 PM

2017-10-22T19:12:26-04:00

I think that civilian would have been told to STFU. But that is me. :-)

Response by MSgt Thomas Mason made Oct 23 at 2017 6:12 PM

2017-10-23T18:12:30-04:00

It seems to me that in a court, civilian or military, the Judge and staff, --- certainly including security personnel, have the authority? I've seen this before in a civil court when a defendant appeared in court wearing a tank top, dirty short pants and sandals. The judge handled the dress code violation in a most pointed and firm manner! Would this fall under "inappropriate conduct" in a court of law?

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2017 5:00 AM

2017-10-27T05:00:35-04:00

SSG McLamb, not much else you could have done. There's a time and place for everything and chewing out the accused at his court-martial is not one of them. At this point, it's going to be the Trial Counsel's job to try and explain to the MJ why he/she isn't in the correct uniform. Depending on what the accused is being prosecuted for, depends on whether or not you should write up a statement on the situation. I have to admit that I would be pretty damn pissed myself, if that happened to me. Kudos for not making a scene...very professional of you.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Nov 1 at 2017 8:16 AM

2017-11-01T08:16:04-04:00

A couple of things need clarification to get a better picture of the situation.
1) Is this soldier that you were at the CM with in your unit chain of command?
2) What purpose or reason did this soldier have for being at the CM if it was not his own?

Firstly, you handled the situation poorly. Pulling him to the side and locking him up into parade rest was a start. At the point where he ignored you, stuffed his hands into his pockets and stared at or past your paralegal and you could not regain control of the situation you should have left him with your Para and sought higher command. It was clear he was not going to show you any respect and that nothing you could or would do would regain that. Losing your cool and walking off to a room means you lost respect as you could not maintain the composure for your rank. Being as it was a CM there were bound to be numerous MP's around and one of them could have easily taken command of the soldier for a period of time.

As to the civilian who was former military. That is just one of those things you simply have to eat and move on from. You could tell her to suck it up and move on but that would get you into hot water especially if there was a complaint logged.

Response by SSG Michael Scott made Nov 5 at 2017 2:50 PM

2017-11-05T14:50:58-05:00

I would put his ass in place

Response by PO1 Joseph Smith made Nov 9 at 2017 6:46 PM

2017-11-09T18:46:49-05:00

Why was a civilian allowed to move freely through a court martial?

I really don't know the history of this incident, but the inability to make eye contact and hands in the pocket sounds like a flight response or whatever psychologists call it.
Did the soldier have the correct uniform and refused to wear it or were they wearing the only uniform they could? Was the uniform issue the first issue the soldier had or were there more like drunk on duty or constant tardiness?

I guess I would have to know the whole story to know how to proceed, but I still want to know why a civilian was allowed to disrupt a court martial.

Response by LCpl Rich Vail made Nov 9 at 2017 8:12 PM

2017-11-09T20:12:01-05:00

I would have written the GI up for an article 13 offense...and he should be glad that the offense of "silent insolence" was no longer in effect...just my 2 cents.

Response by Cpl Christian Sotoparra made Nov 9 at 2017 8:22 PM

2017-11-09T20:22:28-05:00

He was probably getting kicked out so fucks were clearly given.

Response by CPT Newell Jones made Nov 11 at 2017 12:14 PM

2017-11-11T12:14:12-05:00

This sounds like the result of multiple things that were occurring onsite, and have been systemic in the military in recent years. Many things are promoting a loss of respect for rank, including the lack of support by the chain of command, the too rapid promotions that outrun the maturity level of many of those promoted and the social engineering that is filtering its way into the military. Still, one must rise to the rank that is worn, and for a subordinate to act in this way, and not be handcuffed and taken back to the brig/stockade for disciplinary punishment, postponing the Court Martial and adding additional charges to be presented is unconscionable. Oh, this was posted three years ago, and the individuals involved have either learned better, or are civilians now (hopefully).

Response by LTC John Griscom made Nov 12 at 2017 9:17 AM

2017-11-12T09:17:22-05:00

This is not a situation you walk away from. Soldier has disobeyed a order and based on the current attitude, should be arrested and referred for further disciplinary action.
Ask the civilian to not interfere.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Nov 12 at 2017 9:25 AM

2017-11-12T09:25:27-05:00

I think we would have a little one on one time.

Response by CPT Stephen Parker made Nov 12 at 2017 12:51 PM

2017-11-12T12:51:42-05:00

The soldier's appearing out of uniform for a court's martial. I think the judge will instantly see he's copping an attitude and react accordingly. Remember the old rule. I can't make you do anything. I can just make you wish you had.

When I was a serving infantry captain I'd say, "I'm as nice as you let me be. What's it gonna be? You get to decide right here, right now, how difficult your life's gonna be in the short run. What's it gonna be?"

Then I give him about a minute to think it over and they almost always said, "I'm sorry sir. I was a jerk." And then they did lots better.

Response by SFC James William Bolt [ 40 Yards ] made Nov 13 at 2017 11:40 AM

2017-11-13T11:40:09-05:00

Seem to me four ego got involved . I would got the trooper info and found from his unit why he was not in the proper dress for a Court Martial . Or was some one having a bad day and wanted to show his rank or was the trooper having a bad day and wanted to push back . I found that EGO cause a lot of strife in unit I served in . I left MY EGO at the front gate on enter a base. Sign 40 yards

Response by SGM Charles Twardzicki made Nov 16 at 2017 9:46 PM

2017-11-16T21:46:00-05:00

Start the process of getting that civilian a different job! Unless the soldier works directly for a civilian, they should stand quietly to the side.

Response by Joseph Sherrod made Nov 18 at 2017 3:27 PM

2017-11-18T15:27:36-05:00

The soldier was being court martialed probably does not care anymore. He does not care about rules and regulations, he may think that they are going to throw the book at him. So what more can he lose? is where his thinking is at! Getting disrespected by a civilian happens all the time. The age of respect and honor has gone especially from the younger civilians . Not all of them are like this but more than would be expected.

Response by MSG Aubrey Shirley made Nov 19 at 2017 10:38 PM

2017-11-19T22:38:56-05:00

I would have found a way to take this situation to the Soldier's Chain of Command and made sure I flowed up with the actions or lack there of taken.
This is a situation we all find ourselves in more and more often. If this is not corrected here and on a larger scale our Military will continue down the path we are on now.
I am glad you stepped away, for Your sake. Please continue to do the job you are doing, it takes Leaders like you to help us all.

Response by Sgt Michael Sayles made Nov 21 at 2017 3:33 PM

2017-11-21T15:33:01-05:00

During my time in the Marine Corps, 1968-1972 I was personally too proud of the Corps reputation for discipline to ever consider hesitating let alone disobeying an order. I viewed myself as one of the best, the American Spartans and I couldn't bring disrespect on the reputation and legend of the Marines that had come before me.

Response by CPO Mark Robinson made Nov 22 at 2017 11:43 PM

2017-11-22T23:43:21-05:00

Being a Federal employee for the last 15 years I am so glad that I have minimal interaction with military personnel. They can be a pain in the butt. By the way do you think someone who is going through a court martial really cares?

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Nov 30 at 2017 1:08 PM

2017-11-30T13:08:45-05:00

I would just rip his head off and shit in his neck. But that's old school me.
Call the MP's and have arrested; and tell the civilian to shut up and get out of my AO.

Response by SFC Jim Dorsey made Dec 1 at 2017 5:48 PM

2017-12-01T17:48:15-05:00

Obvious to me the civilian that interrupted had no reason to comment, criticise, and should have been dismissed at the outset. Instant obedience to orders is paramount to good discipline. This “soldier” was insubordinate and appropriate UCMJ action should be initiated. Don’t waste your breath on buttheads like this!

Response by GySgt Charles O'Connell made Dec 3 at 2017 3:44 PM

2017-12-03T15:44:22-05:00

Poor little tyke probably feels put upon, he's at his Court Martial, how dare someone correct his bearing and uniform. Add another charge to list, Disrepect, Disobedience.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2017 8:44 PM

2017-12-03T20:44:04-05:00

If you were doing this in an office building where people are working you should have stepped outside. Also said soldier was at a court martial so probably just wasting your breath.

Response by SSgt Dennis Rotzoll made Dec 4 at 2017 8:38 PM

2017-12-04T20:38:51-05:00

What the hell do you have a paralegal for? You need to get some Marine training, it appears the Army doesn't have any idea how to handle troops.

Response by GySgt David Lemanske made Dec 5 at 2017 11:30 AM

2017-12-05T11:30:14-05:00

I learned never to bark unless i was prepared to bite.

Response by Cpl Hal Prock made Dec 6 at 2017 11:15 AM

2017-12-06T11:15:00-05:00

in my day and command. that would have ended up with your butt waking up in the Med Bay. if disrespected NCO did not do it. Someone else would have with several witnesses stating your punk ass swung first. Was not tolerated by Top Walker in the day. And even full Bird's did not tell that man what to do.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2017 9:58 PM

2017-12-09T21:58:51-05:00

That civilian and former service member would be standing locked until I finished my immediate duty and then dealt with. Regardless of the title or position they held. Civilian is a support role and I don't care if it is I that may need to provide them of that reminder. I will do so as tactfully as they allow the conversation to be.

Response by SGT Kyle Bickley made Dec 10 at 2017 9:09 AM

2017-12-10T09:09:34-05:00

Good Lord! This really happen? Was this a line dog you were correcting? Or gear in the rear? Act that stupid in front of me UCMJ his ass! I'm going after rank, money, and time. Refuse to obey that, I'll haul his butt down to the brig and let the MPs teach him how to be a prisoner. As for the civilian, guess I'm getting UCMJ! They got 2 seconds to return to their cute little office, walking or in a wheelchair their choice! You must have disciplined in the ranks! Without it people die because they won't respect or follow your commands in combat. Being in charge ain't easy, your not gonna make friends. Your gonna have to put your neck in the line for your troopers, that includes your rank! However you can't show weakness. Rank is a fearful and powerful thing which must be respected and obeyed! Trooper has a problem with you, they use chain of command to make sure you are not abusing that power. I was good to my guys, took care of them, stood up for them, protected them, but they knew to get outta line with me would not go well for them. I really don't understand what kinda military y'all have today, but if your putting up with this bullshit you need to tighten up! Either lead or get out before you get someone killed for being a candy ass. I'd rather hurt their feeling, play move the earth closer to the sun games then attend their funerals! I want them to go home in one piece to their families alive. That was my job! If this isn't yours, their deaths will be on your head! Tighten up!

Response by PO1 Tom Follis made Dec 17 at 2017 2:53 PM

2017-12-17T14:53:08-05:00

A court martial which was apparently held on base? I would have told the civilian lawyer to just go ahead and do your thing. After the session I would’ve made it clear that he just got another charge added on. After having 6 others conduct a private session.

Response by PFC Scott Spann made Dec 22 at 2017 12:38 PM

2017-12-22T12:38:13-05:00

He is still in the service, if you outranked him, and he acted that way. He is just added to his court martial charges.

Depending on the rank of the one he turned his back on. He is in violation of Article 91: Insubordinate Conduct, or Article 89: Disrespect towards a Superior Officer.

Response by CPO Donald Crisp made Dec 26 at 2017 12:35 PM

2017-12-26T12:35:45-05:00

As stated by others, wit out knowing the details, it's hard to give specific advise. That said, it sounds like the soldier on report has no respect for the situation, your rank, and the military as a whole. If this is his first time, a significant emotion event may be warranted. If it's not his first, it my warrant processing out of the military within regulation.
As for the civilian, prior military or not, this is a military matter and I would have asked to leave and notified her when I was done. I've seen way too many civilians think they are in charge. We are the military, on a military installation, performing and unfortunate duty. Civilians can create some pretty frustrating times. Personally, I would let my COC know about the situation and speak to her supervisor unless someone up the chain would like to do that. Just a thought.

Response by Cpl Clifford Hager made Dec 27 at 2017 9:06 AM

2017-12-27T09:06:23-05:00

I chased (escorted) a prisoner from our unit up to Division Headquarters while in Vietnam. He was full of attitude, disrespectful of everyone and an all around jerk... What do you actually expect from someone who has gotten themselves into the situation of a court martial?

What is left out in the OP is, was this guy a defendant, a witness or present in some other capacity? The answer would make a big difference in how I responded to him.

Response by PO2 Scott V. made Dec 28 at 2017 9:38 AM

2017-12-28T09:38:35-05:00

I would have commanded you, Army "captain", to shut your fucking mouth. The soldier, which is all YOU are - a dirt loving, shit saving, oxygen wasting, good for nothing tax waste - to make your "judgement at the first sign of failure from your assigned interviewee. YOU do your job. He's not disrespecting you, you are disrespecting him by insisting the failure point that is YOU, slaggard slime flea, by using your position in the situation to lord over a person you think is a lesser human and lesser VOLUNTEER than you are. Who the fuck are you to call out a person who is already standing trial for an error, to make life difficult for other people, in a professional place of business.

The only thing you are usable as, cunt-bag in chief, is as a paperwork machine in that situation. If you really actual;ly wanted to be a pompous ass then you should have joined the Air Force.

Fucking pricks, making life in service to our nation a strain on federal resources just by by being you...
You would have lasted all of about on local ops run for discretionary training then be sent packing to the surface fleet for removal from service. Was that close - I would follow requlation, like I agreed to, in that situation. "Captain" of my butt, more like it.

YES, STAFF SERGEANT, I KNOW YOU AREN'T A CAPTAIN, but neither are most ship captains. By rank, I mean...most are commanders or lieutenant commanders. Just bothers me...a person being entitled with a duty designator as a paygrage.

Response by Cpl Paul Aycock made Dec 29 at 2017 2:00 PM

2017-12-29T14:00:36-05:00

I was a Cpl and found some remedial P.T. can help straighten out the issue.

Response by CPO Lou Oliver made Dec 29 at 2017 3:58 PM

2017-12-29T15:58:31-05:00

Simple, I would have asked the woman "If that is the case why are you not doing your job, instead of trying to do mine?"

Response by CPO Nate S. made Dec 29 at 2017 6:08 PM

2017-12-29T18:08:07-05:00

Frankly, I have reviewed a number of the statements made in this post and it seems simple. Civilians, especially those that have never served, at a non-command level, often think they have a "right" to comment of matters of "military discipline" and "proper respect" between military members. They do not! The only exception is reporting to the chain of command witnessed (by other than themselves alone) bad behaviors consistent with the parameters of the UCMJ! If the civilian had a concern, she should have called her HR, and asked for guidance. Stating "she had work to do" is lame. The person being disciplined was choosing to get others involved by their disrespectful behavior and knew the potential for disrupting the work place and was perhaps hoping to cause an incident. Immaturity often takes this approach.

Civilians are not accountable under the UCMJ and while they may be culpable under general civilian law for everything from negligence to theft, they are not tried under the per view of the UCMJ. Federal and other laws apply, but the UCMJ does not, or at least did not when I was on active duty, apply to civilians. Therefore, unless you are physically abusing a person or are simply unprofessional (endangering people's lives or forcing people to take unlawful acts) civilians need to stay the hec out!

Esprit de corps and unit cohesion are difficult enough to manage without civilians injecting what they think is typical for them upon a military environment. In many cases civilians are often unprepared to understand why appropriate discipline must be achieved and maintained within the standards of the UCMJ, and more often than not do more harm to the chain of command than they do help it, when they inject comments or actions that disrupt the very reasons military discipline and personal responsibility are so important.

Not knowing some other factors I will go out on a limb here just make a couple of more comments:

1st - I might have said e.g. - "Mam, I appreciate this is disrupting you, in fact it is disrupting a great number of things. I apologize for (the person's name and rank here) behavior, which is in violation of good order and discipline and if not corrected will endanger those he could find himself with in a combat zone or other life threatening situation. I value that this is disrupting to you, but think of it this way, if (the person's name and rank here) believes they are not accountable for following protocol, how reliable will they be when those who will count on them will not be able to count on him. What if a friend of yours or a family member were killed or hurt because of (the person's name and rank here) undisciplined actions, would you accept this lack of simple discipline on their part as Ok, especially if their improper actions costs your friend or family member their life? Is that OK with you? Again, I apologize that this incident has disrupted your work. But, I need you allow me to do my job in accordance with the UCMJ, which you are not held to account to comply with, but (the person's name and rank here) is accountable to. Again, thank you!"

2nd - Ignoring the solider (briefly) to address the civilian and using language that speaks to consequences of actions for both the civilian and offending solider that is public, allows you to make a very strong statement. I have on the couple of occasions this happened to me to a lesser degree found that taking such an approach can often get increased buy-in from civilians who work in the same co-locations, and send the message that you are unflappable. None of this is simple or comfortable, but it does present an opportunity to teach. After all, as Senior Enlisted and Officers we have a duty to teach.

In closing, lets look at a couple of UCMJ articles:

Article 89 - “Any person subject to this chapter who behaves with disrespect toward his superior commissioned officer shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

Article 91 - “Any warrant officer or enlisted member who—

(1) strikes or assaults a warrant officer, non-commissioned officer, or petty officer, while that officer is in the execution of his office;

(2) willfully disobeys the lawful order of a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer; or

(3) treats with contempt or is disrespectful in language or deportment toward a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer while that officer is in the execution of his office; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

Article 92 - “Any person subject to this chapter who—

(1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;

(2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by a member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or

(3) is derelict in the performance of his duties; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

Article 117 - “Any person subject to this chapter who uses provoking or reproachful words or gestures towards any other person subject to this chapter shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

The solider, at least as explained, is in violation of one or more of these UCMJ articles. Again, this is an interesting discussion, but I think takes up too much valuable time. Frankly, I might have taken him into to the court and let the JAG prefer added charges, perhaps Article 88 - “(a) An act, done with specific intent to commit an offense under this chapter, amounting to more than mere preparation and tending, even though failing, to effect its commission, is an attempt to commit that offense.

(b) Any person subject to this chapter who attempts to commit any offense punishable by this chapter shall be punished as a court-martial may direct, unless otherwise specifically prescribed.

(c) Any person subject to this chapter may be convicted of an attempt to commit an offense although it appears on the trial that the offense was consummated.”

As the solider was "attempting to commit an offense" by not being in the proper uniform when they knew otherwise or should have known otherwise.

Again, just a few comments from someone that has been retired >20 years, but who continues to wonder why such issues continue to plague or military. Also, like some of you, I retired (mid-90s) when "political correctness" was beginning to gain its sea legs. When we cannot be frank (honest) we create and environment of distrust. For warriors, this can never be! Too much is riding on keeping faith with our fellow service members regardless of branch or rank.

Response by PO3 David Greeley made Dec 30 at 2017 4:23 PM

2017-12-30T16:23:06-05:00

Charge the soldier with the appropriate article of the UCMJ.

Response by SSgt Thomas Hirschey made Dec 30 at 2017 4:37 PM

2017-12-30T16:37:07-05:00

Time to add to the charges!

Response by Julia Kras made Dec 30 at 2017 8:02 PM

2017-12-30T20:02:46-05:00

Every story has a beginning but many times we only hear the end of the story. If the reprimanding officer called the soldiers attention with an attitude. This can automatically create an attitude for the soldier. I am not giving an excuse for this soldier. We have lost the sense of respect, authority and values. This soldier needs to have a consequence for his disrespect. If not, this can be a damaged apple for the rest of soldiers. He should be written up three write ups and he is out. When we have disciplined of enforced regulations we act straighter. Every action has a consequence in this case his action should have a consequence if not. The Staff Seargant will have a dominoe effect problem on his hands

Response by SGT Frank Pritchett made Jan 1 at 2018 1:32 PM

2018-01-01T13:32:23-05:00

A Soldier in this is already lost, there will be no getting through to him. when I was stationed at Ft. Polk I had a Soldier in my squad who refused to get out of his pup tent during our annual FTX. Not know what to do I brought in my Warrant Officer who went nuts and ripped his tent apart. The Soldier further refused to comply; eventually he was sent back to rear and the Chapter 13 was initiated. A situation such as these will escalate to the point of everyone losing control. these types of soldiers have no business in the Military and can be carrier breakers for Officers and NCO's. That is why Counseling Statements are so vital at the onset of a problem, it makes the chapter 13 much easier to process, this is just my opinion.

Response by CPT Larry Hudson made Jan 3 at 2018 10:14 AM

2018-01-03T10:14:36-05:00

Your corrective action was correct, however , if it took place in civilian environment or even military where civilians are employed! I can see where it would get blown out of proportion. Of course the disrespectful soldier is wrong and additional charge clock running. Suggest you jerk his tail back to stockade and take corrective there in controlled environment

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 5 at 2018 1:50 AM

2018-01-05T01:50:11-05:00

Right or wrong...this would be "my" response......
as the "civilian" chose to interrupt.....
I would turn to him and tell him that he needed to "be quiet as I addressed the soldier".
I would then re-address the soldier
and tell him to return to his quarters, and get into "Proper Uniform".
(adding that this was an "order")
Being late due to his negligence
will not look good for him in the eyes of the "Officers of the Court"
Plus, being "disrespectful" would only add to the charges he is already facing.
The fact that said civilian used to be in the military,
and acted that way tells me that he had no respect for rank while he was in.
And that he was trying to Undermine the authority "you" had as an Officer,
and you gave him what he wanted.

Response by Pvt Rip Masters made Jan 9 at 2018 4:05 PM

2018-01-09T16:05:47-05:00

We'll that'all depend , If ya good leader , strip your Blouse havem strip His see what happens ! all this Political Correctness roe's are for jackwagon peckerwoods . SFMF.

Response by SFC Randy Pritchett made Feb 5 at 2018 7:48 PM

2018-02-05T19:48:25-05:00

I come from the “old school”, so we will leave it at that.

Response by GySgt David Lemanske made May 15 at 2018 5:57 PM

2018-05-15T17:57:25-04:00

Well I'm old school, the picture shows a female drill sergeant training a Male recruit, to do what?
The USA has used the military as a social equality club with equal opportunity, it was never meant to be! but mark my words we will all pay a price in one way or another.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2018 12:03 PM

2018-07-17T12:03:30-04:00

Sounds like that turd was in the right place!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2018 4:07 PM

2018-08-11T16:07:55-04:00

Unfortunately, this is an increasing issue. a much larger discussion than we have space here. You were doing the right thing. After three attempts I think the attitude of disrespect is established and the 4856 come in to play. If nothing else, this sets the point for the JAG to include it as a lesser included offense.
This is an unfortunate position, and may need to go back to the Soldier's command and a separate ART15 if they support it. I was present when my BN CSM was called to the Garrison SGMs office for making stop corrections on two AIT Soldiers and my CSM was told he was wrong for not going through the chain of command for the two students. WTF!! When did it become an offense for anyone, especially an E-9 to make a spot correction?
I'm sorry ot say that I'm partly happy my time is coming to an end to get away from the dropping standards.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2018 7:55 PM

2018-12-27T19:55:32-05:00

Don't waste your energy on him. Unless he has not been issued the proper uniform, wearing the wrong uniform should be regrarded as a will fill act, and clearly has no desire for leniency.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2018 7:56 PM

2018-12-27T19:56:47-05:00

Also, his lawyer is probably a waste of his money if she did not advise him on proper attire and conduct that could aid him.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2018 7:58 PM

2018-12-27T19:58:43-05:00

Just one more, if the post commander couldn't hear you yelling at the SM, while sitting in his office with the door closed, you wheren't yelling at him. You were only speaking to him sternly.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 28 at 2019 6:20 PM

2019-08-28T18:20:51-04:00

Beat his ass.

Response by SPC John Decker made Aug 28 at 2019 6:28 PM

2019-08-28T18:28:03-04:00

Seems like a court-officer could/should have intervened.

Response by SPC Michael Pellegrino made Oct 16 at 2019 9:28 PM

2019-10-16T21:28:15-04:00

Are we dealing with a bunch of prima donnas....give the bastard a tongue lashing

Response by SSgt Russell Stevens made Oct 20 at 2019 6:24 PM

2019-10-20T18:24:58-04:00

Was the soldier being court-martialed? If so I would have had MPs put him in a cell, then explain to the court-martial panel exactly what happened. Now that you're a witness the soldier might have to find new representation.

Response by SSG Thomas Nash made Mar 5 at 2020 7:28 PM

2020-03-05T19:28:18-05:00

I could say a lot, but I have taken my BDU jacket off and offered the first swing to a disrespectful pos. He was not just a loudmouth, but a coward as well. Other less ignorant soldiers that have gone down that road gave in to the stream of verbal correction and or intimidation (threatening of end of career, loss of pay, jail time.) When I was escorting troops Frankfurt and then out of the Army, I had to carry a .45. One time I did have to lock and load. Our area of the mess hall cleared. He lost his silverware, especially his butter knife, and had to eat with his fingers.

Response by SSG Thomas Nash made Mar 5 at 2020 7:31 PM

2020-03-05T19:31:36-05:00

Write it up, if he is not dismissed from service or jailed for the current CM, let him be drug before another. Serial offenders don't last long.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Mar 5 at 2020 9:46 PM

2020-03-05T21:46:10-05:00

You were at a CM, was he the one being CMed? If not he would have charged now.

Response by SSG Dale London made Apr 30 at 2020 12:17 PM

2020-04-30T12:17:59-04:00

As infuriating as the situation was, I think I would have done something like this:
Me: "Soldier, you have exactly three seconds to comply the orders you have been given before I add disrespecting a commissioned officer, disrespecting an NCO, disobeying a direct order and disobeying a lawful order to your charge sheet. Just so you know, that means real time at Leavenworth.
"Three, two, one...."

Response by MSG Tami Pal made Aug 29 at 2020 7:10 AM

2020-08-29T07:10:11-04:00

What was his answer for being out of uniform?

Response by MSG Allan Davis made Oct 5 at 2020 8:59 PM

2020-10-05T20:59:56-04:00

The part of your story that gets under my skin isn’t the shitbag soldier. It’s the shitbag civilian. The only civilian positions on post should be at the PX, Commissary, bowling alley and theater. I can’t think of another place they are useful outside of select instructor positions.

Response by SrA James Cannon made Dec 14 at 2020 11:48 AM

2020-12-14T11:48:23-05:00

Seems to me that you could've/should've told the civilian, "stay in your lane!" Ignore the civilian from there forward, but contact their supervisor if they persist. Then handle the soldier as you need to, while continuing to ignore the civilian. Or you could've just let the soldier walk into the court martial and explain to the judge why they were in the wrong uniform. If questioned by the judge, explain that you attempted to rectify the situation to no avail.

Response by CW3 Dick McManus made Feb 22 at 2021 5:46 PM

2021-02-22T17:46:08-05:00

First all, it was not your duty to do the judges job. If the judge did not give a shit what kind of uniform the soldier was wearing, that is his decision.

Were you involved in the case?

Civilians can at time say smart things and active duty officers need to listen to them.

Your second mistake is using the word "why." The best was to give an order is always say what you want the soldier to do. What you were really saying is "I am angry seeing you in the wrong uniform to attend a Court Martial." When you hear someone making a a racist remark, that is the time to say, "I do not like what you just said or did." But if the person is smaller than you, stand your ground and listen for a reply. If bigger than you, the smart thing to do is say those world and keep on walking.

Officers need to mind their own business and leave it up the the soldier's NCO chain of command, to make silly on-the-spot corrections like not putting ones hands into their pockets.

Response by SP5 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2021 12:52 AM

2021-02-23T00:52:41-05:00

When I was in the Army this crap would not fly, civilian or no civilian. As previously stated "This is a military matter".

Response by SFC Stephen King made Jul 9 at 2021 10:44 PM

2021-07-09T22:44:04-04:00

BTA Boot to _____!

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2021 6:54 PM

2021-09-04T18:54:38-04:00

Charge him for everything

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2021 10:19 PM

2021-11-07T22:19:38-05:00

Did you know that criminals don't usually care about fixing their broken tail lights?
If someone is ok with breaking a big rule, they don't care about small rules. Adding a small punishment to a huge punishment is irrelevant.
I would have let the judge deal with it.
As for the civilian, I would have had a discussion with them about their unacceptable behavior, and included their supervisor.

Response by SSG Conrad Sylvestrelamb made Aug 12 at 2022 10:58 AM

2022-08-12T10:58:00-04:00

The nasty attitude is the reason soldier is going through the carp. Cant fix no spare parts boot soldier out. Some one will now or later put boots in their assets.

Response by Cpl Tammy Hooper made Mar 7 at 2023 8:15 AM

2023-03-07T08:15:41-05:00

He was on his way out no reason to waste your breath on him.