Do Army Leaders (Military Leaders) really understand counseling and leader development?

COL Charles Williams — Wed, 18 Mar 2015 21:08:39 -0400

I am interested in your thoughts on how you think we are we are doing, as an Army, (Navy, Air Force, Marines) with performance and professional growth counseling, and hence leader development.

The latest Army definition of Leadership added "improve the organization," which I interpret to mean improving both the unit and the individuals serving there. The latter requires a concerted counseling and leader development focus. This is the latest:

"Leadership is the process of influencing people by providing purpose,
direction, and motivation to accomplish the mission and improve the
organization." (Army Doctrine Publication (ADP) 6-22, Army Leadership).

I have read various posts about counseling, and how we doing at it, and I am interested in your thoughts for several reasons:

1. I have a Masters Degree in counseling and leader development, and I am pursuing a PhD in the same discipline.

2. I know (at least in my experiences) that we don't do very well at counseling on the whole. We seem to do event oriented counseling when required, but we largely miss the boat on performance counseling and personal growth counseling.

3. I have made this a priority in my Army Career, largely because most of my bosses were not good at this. Most of my bosses just called me in, handed my OER, and asked if I had many questions. Or, asked me how I thought I was doing. Many times my bosses were out of the touch with what OERs needed to say, if your intent was for the Rated Officer to promoted... or move forward. Only had one boss who called me in when I started a job, who shared his vision and expectations with me - on a hand written note...

4. Because I taught this to Cadets at West Point, LTs at the MP Basic Course (OBC/BOLC), and now I am teaching this to HS JROTC Cadets.

5. Finally, because now that I am in the civilian world (education = the polar opposite of the Army), I find these leaders (administrators as they are called) are even worse than leaders I had in the Army...

I believe counseling (listening more than you talk) is essential for leader development, but from what I have seen... we are not really very good at it.

Please share your thoughts and experiences.

http://www.armywriter.com/counseling-developmental.htm
http://armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/DR_pubs/dr_a/pdf/adp6_22_new.pdf

Performance Counseling Examples

Performance counseling deals with the initial and recurring monthly counseling for soldiers, E-4 and below, and the initial and quarterly counseling required for NCOs.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2015 9:14 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Mar 2015 21:14:51 -0400

I write that simply because they are military leaders and are not psychology trained. Also, they don't give a rip about any mental problems you may or not have as long as you do your job and don't cause any embarrassment to the military.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2015 9:20 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Mar 2015 21:20:05 -0400

I think it depends on the leader, sir. My experiences on active duty (8.5 years enlisted; 22 years warrant) were very similar to yours in this area.

As a young troop, I probably got more counseling in the fist four years than I did in the remaining 26.

I like the new definition and adding improving the unit. That's an important aspect of leadership.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Mar 18 at 2015 9:33 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Wed, 18 Mar 2015 21:33:45 -0400

The military is very good when it comes to "operationally" focused tasks. We like to get things done. We're less enthusiastic about "administratively" focused tasks.

Unfortunately, counselling is perceived as an administratively focused task. It is a "check in the box" so to speak. For everyone except the Leader/Follower in question, it's just a piece of paper that must be filed. It is no different than the thousand other pieces of paper we deal with daily, whether it be the on-hand report, the security checklist, the dental class 4 list, etc.

So, philosophically, we have a problem. We as an "organization" don't care about it. We as "individuals" do. For the average Leader/Follower, we have no idea how much these counselling statements actually affect our career. They're hidden behind the veil. It's not like Proficiency & Conduct marks of Junior Marines (Pvt - Cpl) which directly affect our promotability in a "visible" and transparent way.

So again, it's just something that has to be done, when we change leaders, or change commands.

That's the philosophic issue with it. There are functional problems as well. As you mention, we are better at "impact" level counselling, but not so much at "sustainment" level. The issue I see is that we do them periodically, and generally speaking the periods are too long. In teh Marines, it was Semi-Annual for Pvt through Cpl, and Annual for Sgt and above.

How can a person expect reasonable improvement, if they are only getting formal feedback every 6-12 months? This ties back to the administrative nature of counselling. We have to find a fine line between burden and necessity. I personally think quarterly would be better, especially for our young Marines, and Semi-Annually for our more seasoned folks. Sure the Senior/Staff NCOs could probably get away with Annual, but had I stayed in, I would have been a SNCO at just over 8 years. I still had a lot of room to grow at that point, and more frequent counselling probably would have been better than less.

Additionally, as you mention, there should be a clear concise entrance counselling. Non-graded, but bulletized. This gives expectations. Set a date out for 90 days from change of leadership/arrival at unit. These act as informal counselling records, and can be referred back to for the more formal events.

Now, as for the Fitness Reports themselves. I had good leaders. But I had the same leaders for each period, and I worked closely with them. My MSgt taught me to document things, and hold onto "everything" including Letters of Appreciation, school certs, etc. It makes the process so much smoother later on. There were other Sgt+ in my unit (with different leaders) who had different experiences.

Just my thoughts. Thank you for including me in the above list.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Mar 18 at 2015 10:09 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Wed, 18 Mar 2015 22:09:09 -0400

Sir, I am glad you bring this up because I feel strongly about it. So here's my thought.

The Army emphases the importance of counseling and how much our success depends on it. However, there is little to no emphasis in developing counselors. In other words, it would be as if we wanted everyone to have 300 on an APFT, but we never do PT. But because we really do emphasize PT, we do it every day, we are graded on it very strictly, our career depends upon our performance in it, and we even send individuals to school to become Master Fitness Trainers. So yes I buy that we think PT is important because our practice shows that.
On the other hand, lets look at counseling vs PT.

PT vs. Counseling
Frequency Daily(twice for failures) vs. Monthly/Quarterly for NCO's (if it's done)
Performance Measure APFT vs. None
Specialty School Master Fitness vs. None
Retention Standard Failure=discharge vs. None
Awards PT Badge vs. None

I could keep going but you get the point. I could make the analogy for just about any other metric besides PT. So we want good counseling but we don't make good counselors. We don't train them properly. Look at your own credentials you listed to be a counselor as a civilian, and then look at the Army's. There are none. Anyone and everyone is and can be a counselor. We require them to be. So there's no credentials to do it but there must be training then. Well if you count a couple of hours of power point slides in your NCOES, then yes, we provide training. Probably about the same amount of training a Lab Tech gets on head space and timing on the 50. More often than not, an NCO is doing his counseling based off of the little blue book called the Mentor and just copies and pastes what someone else and wrote. Why? Because that's how he was counseled. If we say that counseling is important, then we have to treat it that way. There's zero accountability for failing these "requirements."
Fail a APFT and you're out, fail to counsel, well just have your subordinate write his own eval. Would we let them grade themselves on the APFT or write their own card? No that would be ridiculous wouldn't it? Yes it sure would, and yes it sure is.
If we want good counseling, we need good counselors. If we want good counselors then we need to make them. We are not.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Mar 18 at 2015 10:25 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Wed, 18 Mar 2015 22:25:16 -0400

Great thread. I believe that many junior leaders (or some people that just fill leadership positions...lol) see counseling as a burden. No need for phone books and showing off the mastery of the English vernacular. The more counseling you have to do, the highlights become abundantly clear. Bullet comment that bad mamma jamma. o Strengths o Weaknesses o Ways to Improve o Short-term Goals(3-6 mos) o Long-term Goals (< 6mos) and a short summary. You would be surprised how effective this basic systems is, but really gets the service member to think and plan.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2015 11:14 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Mar 2015 23:14:06 -0400

I believe counseling is a great tool, and as a matter of fact the greatest communication tool between NCOs and their soldiers. I have all my POSITIVE counselings(as far back as AIT!) I love progress and professional development but I love POSITIVE counselings even more because it tells me what I need to succeed. Especially when it is given by a person who has been through what i am yet to achieve.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2015 12:01 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 00:01:39 -0400

So if a vehicle runs out of gas on a convoy what happens. I recently suggested a counceling statement. I was told we don't want to hurt moral. Counseling is so much more than support documents for a seperation packet or check the block for evals. The Squadron Commander doesn't want anyone to run out of fuel. So if not doing your job as a leader and running out fuel helps unit moral..... Wow! I would hate to see your counceling from the SCO.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Mar 19 at 2015 3:21 AM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 03:21:43 -0400

There is an art and science to counseling and it takes practice to learn to blend them to best tackle the situation at hand. You cannot approach every situation the same, and you cannot approach every person the same.

Sometimes its best when you take the directive approach: "you will accomplish the following .....and I will be there to inspect these requirements, you will meet me on ____date to conduct a follow up assessment to this counseling".

Sometimes its best for the counselee to use a participatory in the counseling session: "you decided the best plan of action was to accomplish x,y,z......I will be there to assist you in accomplishing these tasks, we will conduct our follow up assessment on _____date"

Sometimes its best to use a combined approach: "after reviewing your performance, we both decidced the best plan of action to correct the performance was to ........, I will be with you during the period of you completing the corrective action to assist as needed so the desired outcome is achieved. We will assess your performance on ____date during our assessment counseling."

The biggest part of all is actually communication, use of empathy (when appropriate) and having a candid conversation to correct whatever the performance gaps are. Most Soldiers really want to do a good job and they do not want to fail, you have to reach them (on their level) to get the maximum performance from them.

Response by Sgt Matt Pinardi made Mar 19 at 2015 7:11 AM

Sgt Matt Pinardi — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 07:11:47 -0400

I appreciate the fact that not all leaders are created equal. But, the military has the framework to develop leaders, and does a far better at doing so than civilian agencies. As a young Marine I was educated in leadership principles, leadership traits, as I picked up Corporal got NCO Training and went to the Infantry Squad Leaders course; the investment was there. That being said, yes there are some crappy leaders both enlisted and commissioned , but for me they were more rare than common. In the military the immediate impact of poor leadership is immediate and burns in ones memory. I work for a civilian law enforcement agency, it's considered paramilitary in nature; I am a leader , a supervisor there, I am not disgruntled; but I can say without a doubt my agency has a allot of managers, not leaders. Commonly the troop leading steps I learned in the Marines, mission acoomploshment and troop welfare , the cornerstone of Marine Leadership is absent in civilian agencies; allot of mission accomplishment and little to no troop welfare. Here it I on a case by case basis and dependent on the supervisor. I guess my point is, leadership in the military is not perfect , but has a sound foundation, the military grooms leaders, in civilian law enforcement, leaders are outweighed by managers; when you could potentially lose your life at work, you need leaders.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Mar 19 at 2015 8:10 AM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 08:10:45 -0400

COL Charles Williams - Sir, I had some leaders who took a lot of their time developing me in various ways, whether in tactical competencies, programs for developing my own subordinates, or in career planning. However, this was the exception and not the norm -- most of my superiors did not do this at all...not one time. It would be unreasonable for me (or anyone else) to say "Oh, they are bad leaders overall" -- because these gentlemen tended to be good leaders in other ways. But development of their subordinate officers was just not a priority. They left this entirely to the Senior NCOs in the unit. Luckily, the units that I served in had incredible Senior NCOs -- some of the best people I have ever met -- and they never stopped working, including with our collaborative development of one another.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Mar 19 at 2015 8:28 AM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 08:28:36 -0400

COL Charles Williams - Sir, I would be interested to hear about some methods that you may have personally used to develop your subordinate offers, given that you were a senior officer with a lot on your plate.

Response by SGT James Hastings made Mar 19 at 2015 8:52 AM

SGT James Hastings — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 08:52:14 -0400

And, I might add, when they lead as well as their training and background.

Response by MAJ Jim Steven made Mar 19 at 2015 8:56 AM

MAJ Jim Steven — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 08:56:27 -0400

It might all depend on the leader, but I would say, generally speaking, no it does not.

two things come to mind
1. "Hooah" is not a motivational speech.
2. Do what I say or face UCMJ is not really providing 'purpose, direction and motivation.'

As I see the Transition light coming at the end of the tunnel, I have been thinking more of what the Army hasnt given me... we seem to really build each other and ourselves up, to the point of overvaluing ourselves. Leading to #3.
3. The fact that you were a 'Pitoon Sarnt' doesnt mean you are ready to be CEO of....

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Mar 19 at 2015 9:20 AM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 09:20:02 -0400

COL Charles Williams, I love this topic!

Realistically, I can count on one hand the number of times that I have actually had formal counseling (feedback in AF terms) where realistically I should be getting, IN WRITING, at least twice a year. Because of this and the fact that the rules for counseling are pretty clear cut in our guidance, I take special care in making sure the folks I supervise have theirs done and it is MEANINGFUL counseling (feedback) and not a box checking pencil whipped session. My average counseling session is 1 to 1.5 hours per member. This is because we go over each and every area in depth, talk about the why's and how's they are rated the way the are, areas of excellence and improvement and what their personal and professional goals are and how to meet and exceed them. I also explain where they fall in broad terms to their peers within my purview and an educated "WAG" of how they rack and stack against their peers due to the new forthcoming "rack and stack" for our annual performance reports where all members of the same rank are literally judged against each other at the unit level and only a percentage are given the top two performance ratings by the Commander (with a Squadron being roughly equivalent to a Battalion).

Big Air Force recently made a huge change to the counseling worksheet and renamed it the Airmen Comprehensive Assessment with some extremely descriptive verbiage on it.

Below is some great information to understand how AF counseling is suppose to work.

AFI: http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2406/afi36-2406.pdf

Specifically look at Table 2.1. for when feedback is suppose to be given.

Feedback Forms:
E1-E6: http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/form/af931/af931.pdf
E7-E9: http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/form/af932/af932.pdf
O1-O6: http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/form/af724/af724.xfdl

This counseling is different then what I understand the Army terms "event oriented" counseling which is specifically used to correct a specific substandard area. For the AF this is done via Verbal Counseling, Letter of Counseling, Letter of Admonishment and Letter of Reprimand as part of the progressive discipline approach, where each type of corrective action can be given at each level of leadership (i.e. first line supervisor, NCOIC, Section Chief, Flight Chief/Commander, Squadron Commander). These event oriented counseling are generally also discussed in the formal counseling session and documented, if appropriate, in the annual performance report.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Mar 19 at 2015 9:24 AM

Maj Chris Nelson — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 09:24:50 -0400

Some people have a better grasp on leadership then others. Much of that is based on learning styles, exposure to opportunities to lead, personal feelings on counseling/development of others. Let's face it....leadership is a human system and is prone to breaking down as humans are not perfect. Some are good, some are bad and you have the full range from pathetic to excellent and above!

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Mar 19 at 2015 9:33 AM

Capt Jeff S. — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 09:33:33 -0400

I've seen some very good leadership examples come from some folks here on RP (SM, V and R), and I've seen some pretty sorry examples of folks that must have slept through leadership class (if they were even exposed to that kind of training). It's pretty clear that they never had the benefit of being mentored by a real leader or the message was lost in translation.

Sadly, many of those examples tend to be junior enlisted SM and V, but worse I've seen a few SNCO's and JO's whose responses suggest they missed out as well.

Here's some examples of what I'm talking about:

R Sgt mechanic says to retiree: "Amazing. You just admonished me for being unprofessional and off topic. What's with the negative statement? Hypocrisy in action."

V Sgt says to retiree: "... being an officer in the military doesn't equate to having manners and brains. That is for sure you don't have that. I only stated fact and I work hard at what I do. You are just a small jerk with no friends I am sure."

Some folks just don't take kindly to clues! Their extreme professionalism [/sarcasm] and lack of ability to see their own hypocrisy in action speaks volumes.

Okay, so the above are examples of leadership failures. As to who failed I can't say whether the fault lies with the junior enlisted or those who trained them. This response from an SM Sgt on the topic of fitness report writing seems to suggest that the reporting seniors are being lazy and not counseling as they should, and pushing their duties off on their subordinates under the guise of "training":

SM Sgt: "I have written my own NCOER a few times. I was basically due to my PSG not being around / lazy / retiring. Got it knocked out. Good practice sure. Was it the right thing to do? Probably not. Some training value yes. I can agree to that. But its the Supervisors RESPONSIBILITY to lead, develop and mold the subordinates day to day operations as needed. Then provide a realistic, fair and impartial evaluation."

I would like to leave on a good note. This response from an SM junior officer restores my faith that the military has not turned its back on counseling and leadership training:

SM Capt (USAF) commenting on the subject of fitness report writing clearly gets it: "I have two things to say about this, one you are one lazy senior leader if you can't find the time to write on your own subordinates, and two, you are not setting or exceeding the example of leadership to your junior officers and senior NCOs when implementing this practice. So make time in your busy life and set aside time and become more organized when the time comes to right evaluations and awards and not just do it to knock it out, complete this in a timely manner and with research and pride. Just my thoughts, thank you."

Yes, there are better examples of good and bad leadership that I could have used, but these are the ones I have most recently come across.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Mar 19 at 2015 10:42 AM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 10:42:17 -0400

I believe that counseling is important in the development of soldiers and leaders and that it is not something that is limited to the military. I have found that counseling is as important (maybe even more so) in the civilian sector as it is in the military.

I disagree that effective counseling depends on "listening more than you talk". Listening is certainly important, but talking (providing guidance about what you learned by listening and seeing) is equally important. An effective leader/counselor must take in everything he sees and hears and, based on that input, provide advice and guidance to the person being counseled.

Counseling should be a continuous process and not relegated to a formal "sit down session". On the spot corrections and/or praise, leadership by example, training, etc. are all forms of counseling.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 19 at 2015 10:48 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 10:48:08 -0400

I have to say no. Counseling and mentorship is a task in which the Army has made no efforts to ensure the people responsible for doing it are even remotely qualified to do so. One cannot do what one simply does not know how to do. Our ranks are full of people who THINK they are effective at it, but are sorely lacking those who truly are effective at either..

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2015 12:34 PM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 12:34:57 -0400

Outstanding topic, one that we can talk about for days and still have tons more to talk about. I believe that it depends solely on the leader in the situation. Having been a PME instructor, I know that everyone in the AF has been trained to counsel specifically on performance but those sessions rarely take place. I believe this is because most are afraid of being honest with their subordinates, the conflict that may arise from an actual constructive performance counseling is minimal.

Further, I am passionate enough about this topic that I sit down with each one of the Airmen in my flight and give them basic expectations for performance in the work center. Of course their actual rater will give them specifics depending on the job. I believe a level playing field is where things have to start. Once the field is level the performance counseling at each level happens much easier. There are still all the things to consider during the session, such as the person, type of counseling and so on but with the ground work laid and the support from the top it make things easier on all to give accurate feedback.

Lastly, we get no change in behavior or performance without effect counseling and therefore growth at all levels in an organization. If there is no growth why would we expect anything other than what we have currently?

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Mar 19 at 2015 3:26 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 15:26:26 -0400

"Do Army Leaders (Military Leaders) really understand counseling and leader development? "

In my case, yes, but not early enough in my career when i could have done so much more.

Response by SFC Paul Smith made Mar 19 at 2015 3:28 PM

SFC Paul Smith — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 15:28:36 -0400

No they don't counseling is threatened by leaders it should be encouraged to all ranks but even senior leadership needs guidance

Response by COL John McClellan made Mar 19 at 2015 3:45 PM

COL John McClellan — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 15:45:10 -0400

Chuck - my experience over the latter years of my career tells me that counseling is a lost art and that the reason is not because our Leaders aren't taught it (although the time in schools devoted to this is minimal) or because they don't understand its importance, but rather because of high optempo.

We have so burdened our leaders with all matter of administrative duties, while at the same time removing all help such as Admin Assistants, Clerks and Secretaries. As a result - especially mid-grade Leaders between CPT and COL, spend way too much time on their own computer doing things like ordering their own travel flights or creating their own OERs from scratch, instead of the time it takes to think through and deliver counseling. For a good 30-45 minutes of performance counseling, you probably need 3-4 times that amount of time to prepare your thoughts and how you'll conduct the session. This is where I see our Leaders failing, because of all of the other "hard" commitments such as meetings, briefings, and no support in doing paperwork, as opposed to the "soft" time it takes to settle your mind and focus on how to develop a particular subordinate. More often than not, we put our juniors on "auto-pilot" - especially if they are "doing OK" and maybe only focus our counseling and development on the problem-childs.

In my last garrison position I was a COL-level Director of a staff of 20+ officers and NCOs. I was committed to quarterly counseling of all my direct-reports (5 or 6 LTCs and a SGM) and at least end-of-eval review as Senior Rater for my CPTs/MAJs, etc. I also wrote my own copy for OERs and I wrote the Awards for my immediate subordinates. (I told my supervisors that I was happy to get input, but I would not let anyone write "for me" my content in evaluations and awards - which, I saw a lot of at the GO and COL level...) I found it very challenging to maintain even the minimum expectations I just outlined, but did my best.

Leader development also includes other aspects besides counseling. In my staff, we held internal OPDs - including offsites; we did staff training, and I had staff Goals & Objectives for all un-observed exercises and CPXs. I also supported professional training, specifically things like PMP courses, junior officers studying for GREs, etc. and NCOs taking college course.

All this takes time and planning, which were always in short supply.

Response by SGT William Howell made Mar 19 at 2015 4:36 PM

SGT William Howell — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 16:36:23 -0400

My last 1SG was a leader and a teacher. We had regular NCO-ERs all the time and he groomed us JR NCOs. I use things he taught me every day.

Response by SGT Chris Reese made Mar 19 at 2015 6:53 PM

SGT Chris Reese — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 18:53:35 -0400

Sir from personal experience I noticed mostly that it depended on the leader. During my first 3 years of service I received 1 counseling statement, it came when we had a new NCOIC. Folling that first one I received we got counseled at least once a month. I believe this was in part because this particular NCO'S father was a CSM and taught him that "whether for good or bad always counsel your Soldiers". Not always was it individual counseling but sometimes S-1 wide counseling to let us know as a group what we needed to improve upon or to just let us know as a group that we were doing a good job. It really seemed to help the overall effectiveness and motivation. I believe if our NCO'S truly understood then they would probably do it more often.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2015 8:38 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 20:38:41 -0400

Counseling is imperative! I made my money off of it as a Platoon Sergeant, my Squad Leaders knew exactly where they stood every quarter.
I have had a couple Leaders who have done counseling, but they are the exception.

Response by Col Matthew Fritz made Mar 19 at 2015 9:21 PM

Col Matthew Fritz — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 21:21:36 -0400

I've certainly seen it modeled in positive and negative ways throughout my career. As a whole, however, I believe we are definitely getting better as the magnifying glass of enhanced communication (a la forums like RallyPoint, GeneralLeadership, etc) heats up the field. Without a doubt, however, we have a long way to go as a collective. Leaders who rely "on the system" to provide paperwork and processes to help in this regard will likely underperform. It is my feeling that the "human touch" is what is required--getting out from behind the screen and making feedback, counseling and (best of all) mentoring a part of daily life.

Response by MSgt Keith Hebert made Mar 20 at 2015 1:58 PM

MSgt Keith Hebert — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 13:58:37 -0400

I can count on one hand how many counselings I received and they were all verbal and in the Corps.
I had a 2 mentors in the air guard and they were both traditional

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 20 at 2015 8:26 PM

COL Charles Williams — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 20:26:30 -0400

Yes, It appears this question/thread has run its course...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2015 7:11 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Mar 2015 19:11:53 -0400

I can only say this: as a subordinate, there is little worse than not knowing whether or not you are a f**k up.
I'm a believer I developmental counseling.
Throughout my career, I've had to sign so many "copy and paste" statements. Few times have a had a leader who put forth the effort to write one based on who I am.
The developmental counseling is something that is a mere formality, is something that leaders do not consider as seriously as they should.

"Just sign it".

Personally, I think our troops deserve better.

Response by COL Jon Thompson made Mar 21 at 2015 9:42 PM

COL Jon Thompson — Sat, 21 Mar 2015 21:42:08 -0400

I look at the OER support form as a great (or poor) example in my career. As designed, it is a good tool to help focus subordinates on performance and expectations. That being said, I can probably count on one hand the number of times I was actually counseled on this at the start of the rating period. Most of the time, it was "you have an OER coming, I need your support form." As a young officer, I was not the best at doing this as well but as I moved up, I made the effort to do this with those I rated.

I also think that too often, senior leaders get to the point where they are focused on their careers and thus, do not care about leader development. In my last reserve unit, we conducted training exercises for headquarters of deploying units. We did not have an Information Operations SME and I was working a TDY school slot at the IO school in New England. Shortly before I was going to go, I was pulled because I was needed for an exercise. To me, it was an example of being short sighted vs. looking long range at a needed requirement.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2015 11:11 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Mar 2015 23:11:52 -0400

Sir, my opinion is a pretty simplified one. In terms of leadership, soldiers understand what the doctrine says and practice it. The problem is the doctrine. Every NCO I know can recite ADP 6-22 definition in most cases verbatim. Leadership is not simply providing purpose, direction, and motivation... that's a pretty hooah statement, but it stops short when it comes down to mentorship. The Army is horrible in terms of teaching leaders to be mentors. I've been in the Army 14 years and can count on one hand how many true mentors I have seen.

In my eyes the Army fails at the initial sponsorship level in many commands so mentorship isnt even possible. That one on one interaction and guidance is invaluable in terms of shaping leadership characteristics. The science of leadership counseling is simple enough to learn, but the art of crafting leadership counseling and development takes time and is too often overlooked.

Response by SSG Peter Muse made Mar 21 at 2015 11:27 PM

SSG Peter Muse — Sat, 21 Mar 2015 23:27:49 -0400

As a young troop I was counseled monthly and after most good or not so good deeds. That taught me the value from the standpoint of the "led". Leadership courses taught us the value, principles and application of conducting counseling and we were graded on it. Back at the unit I had senior NCO's who checked counseling we wrote and helped us improve. I won't try to judge how well my officers were at it with each other. Some were good with us enlisted and others were bad at it but there were NCOs who weren't good at it either. I was fortunate to have just the right leaders when I needed them to help me be good at it. I think the training the Army provided then was as good or better than anything in the corporate world.

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Mar 22 at 2015 2:20 AM

1LT William Clardy — Sun, 22 Mar 2015 02:20:21 -0400

Reading through this discussion, I am struck with how, almost without exception (nod to COL Jean (John) F. B.), everybody has redefined counseling into a form-driven exercise in filing an interim EER/NCOER/OER, frequently just as a blatant prelude to subsequent disciplinary action.

Pardon me while I properly position my soapbox....

Prepare to copy. Message follows:

YOU DON'T NEED A FORM TO EFFECTIVELY COUNSEL A SOLDIER, AND YOU DON'T NEED TO BE SITTING DOWN EITHER.

COUNSELING IS MORE THAN GOAL SETTING AND PERFORMANCE DOCUMENTATION,

AT LEAST 90 PERCENT OF THE INDIVIDUAL COUNSELING A SOLDIER RECEIVES SHOULD BE WHILE HE OR SHE IS WORKING AND SHOULD BE GIVING IN SMALL, EASILY COMPREHENDED PIECES. IF YOU AREN'T DOING THAT, SPENDING ONE WHOLE HOUR EACH MONTH READING A PIECE OF PAPER ISN'T GOING TO DO A DAMN BIT OF GOOD.

As I step off my soapbox, I will add that, in my stubborn, words-have-traditional-meanings view, anybody who defines counseling around filling out a form is very likely in need of a flag-rank-rated recto-cranial extractor. Counseling is not creating a paper trail to designed to justify busting somebody's fourth point of contact.

Counseling includes informal counseling, which is a key component in mentorship and effective individual training. If your immediate subordinate could not, at any formation, verbally summarize at least 90 percent of what you would put on his or her written evaluation at that point in time, you are failing to provide effective feedback, which means you are failing to adequately counsel that soldier.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2015 3:30 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 Mar 2015 03:30:06 -0400

Is counseling and development about a process and a formal session? I don't think so. After 24 years, I can't recall a single 4856 or counseling form linked to a formal session that had any influence on my career. What did develop me was the recurring and open dialogue within my immediate chain, along with challenging operational experiences. Further, it was witnessing positive and negative examples from tactical to strategic level that also contributed to my development. Is there a time and place to close a door, sit someone down, break out a "you will" or "you have not" document? Yes. Is it a universal solution to develop and counsel? No.

Response by PV2 Violet Case made Mar 22 at 2015 9:48 PM

PV2 Violet Case — Sun, 22 Mar 2015 21:48:05 -0400

It seems to be better on your part. You can not control what the top orders are and where they come from. But as a unit and team in each field, yes even now after everyone is out of the service look how you still volunteer to help lead the flocks of what seems broken down men and women. Who still love their country are here.
So some where in the leadership when in duty something had to go right. But as a team of all military units on this website it is as tho we are all one. And it is being beautifully ran because look how many top rank and lower ranks are all here. I commend the person who put it in motion and I commend all who share in its professionalism.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2015 3:39 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 03:39:30 -0400

Choice C:
But if I had to choose one or the other I think that PFE instruction is soon forgotten or just disregarded altogether. And counseling should be as much proactive as it is cautionary. But the teaching is essentially okay as it regards finding ways of positive solutions. One example would be the case of the NCO who got a new desk. Problem is that he got that new desk when he was on leave. The NCO was more or less disturbed by the surprise as he was the gift of a new desk. I get that too. You want to feel some comfort and continuity and the NCO deserves that much. IMHO. At least letting him know that the change was to take place. That is but one aspect of leadership and I am not so sure the complaints of toxic leadership is really just poor OJT on already existing training.

Response by MSgt Steve Miller made Apr 9 at 2015 11:54 AM

MSgt Steve Miller — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 11:54:41 -0400

This is by far the most important question I’ve seen posted in this forum. Leadership and performance development is one of those areas that we could all set around and talk about for hours on end.

I did not vote, as I’ve been retired for the past 15 years and did not serve in the Army. But, I will state that leadership development is a daily endeavor, and therefore each leader has an obligation to develop daily. Performance reports are two fold in my mind; they are both a reflection of how a service member has developed and a reflection upon the leadership they have been provided.

Developing my Marines was always foremost in my daily endeavor, and my biggest challenge. Learning is important throughout life, and never ends unless we chose to stop learning!

Response by TSgt Jack Manigold made Apr 9 at 2015 12:17 PM

TSgt Jack Manigold — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 12:17:30 -0400

From an Air Force perspective. The leadership spends too much time putting emphasis on pushing people through the ranks, pt and volunteering. Now we have too many inexperienced people at all ranks trying to teach each other the proper way to counsel. So we have the blind leading the blind.

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made Apr 9 at 2015 1:20 PM

SSG Richard Reilly — Thu, 09 Apr 2015 13:20:41 -0400

There is a fact that Soldier's don't understand counseling and go at it the wrong way. I've typed counselings for SGMs. CSMs, and GO's. And I've read them from many people when I was legal. They butcher the english language, misquote regulations, and attempt to punish through them. Counseling is a great tool when used right but Soldiers need to learn from them and Leaders need to know how to use them correctly. Use them for more than you do did bad's. Use them for giddy up's. Ask any Leader how many counselings they have written. Then ask them how many were negative. I bet that 99% of them were negative. take the time to write down good as well as bad. Oh and don't write a new counseling until you close out the previous one.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2015 12:26 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 11 May 2015 00:26:34 -0400

However I will say this, I have talked to my Sergeants as they come out of WLC. When I went to WLC, it was really useless. but these kids are LEARNING stuff, it is actually impressive. They actually come back with information that I learn from THEM.
Of course counseling is something that I have to still teach them, and I do and they still struggle. We fight through it and God willing, they will be good NCOs after their time with me and are able to counsel their Soldiers sufficiently. It takes time and mentoring though, it is not a matter of telling your NCOs to Counsel your Soldiers and then leave it at that. Sometimes I will randomly look through their counseling packets to ensure it was done, the quality of how the monthly counseling was done etc. Then there are other times that I will sit in on a monthly counseling to see how they are giving the counseling to see how it is being handled. Giving pointers, giving ups and downs that I think that they sustain and improve. I think that this way, they will be able to carry this on and make it BETTER. I am in no way a counseling master. I am decent, much better at that then NCOERS, I am still learning that art.
However it is a craft like anything else that we have to embrace and then pass on to our next generation and it takes commitment.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 8:25 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 May 2015 20:25:45 -0400

COL Charles Williams Sir, I would say it depends. I think in some cases we get too hung up on written counseling, where as in other cases we fail to realize that every interaction is some form of counseling and leader development. Also, I think we are better at identifying the "negative" aspects of an individuals performance, but often fail to positively reinforce the positive aspects of what they do. Counseling and leader development should be a well round systems, and I am not sure we are there yet!

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2017 9:18 AM

LTJG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Dec 2017 09:18:02 -0500

I think it really depends on the leader. A leader who has never been counselled (to me at least) would seem to have a harder time counselling individuals; at least for the first few. Counselling isnt just about the good and the bad (that is important though). It is also about how you can bring the individual up and help them promote. Care about their personal lives and make a difference in it. If they are struggling, point them in the right direction. If they are doing well, praise them and help them gain more responsibility.

Response by SFC William Linnell made Feb 14 at 2022 10:56 AM

SFC William Linnell — Mon, 14 Feb 2022 10:56:23 -0500

Great question Sir. As I can only speak from my experiences in an Army armor MOS for 27 yrs, it's sure has changed a lot over the decades. Back then I feel we got more informal counseling from our Tank Commanders than the written form.
PLDC or whatever name it is now touches on it, gives one some "inspiration" on how to write them but it needs to be taught at the Company level. No pressure, no tests, a relaxed atmosphere. When I made SGT was when I really started to be counseled...properly by my TC/PSG. He even took the time to teach me. As a SSG TC, I would write down notes, but I would also talk to my Soldiers informally on good things and bad. As a tank PSG, I taught my TC's how to properly counsel their crewmembers. Even had a few great LT's that added in the teaching.
I fear that with the last 20 years the Army has lost a lot of skills in counseling. Especially with promoting young Soldiers to quickly and sending them off to be NCO's with no real hands on counseling/developing as it was always Go Go Go.
Leadership development I found for me and I stressed it with my younger Soldiers, to watch the NCO's in the company. Pick from them the good things they do and NCO's and making sure to note the bad things they see and not emulate. To even go to the NCO to pick their brains. being THAT NCO leader that they want to emulate is a good start in leadership development.