Do cadets actually outrank non-commissioned officers?

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 Oct 2017 09:40:32 -0400

I deal with cadets a lot, and they insist they out "rank" every NCO in the army. My usual response is somewhere around the guides of "uh-huh." Can I get some clarity of this?

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2017 9:52 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 Oct 2017 09:52:51 -0400

AR 600-20, Yes, cadets do outrank NCOs. They technically fall between NCOs and Warrant Officers.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Oct 24 at 2017 9:56 AM

SGM Erik Marquez — Tue, 24 Oct 2017 09:56:00 -0400

2LT Private RallyPoint Member See AR 600-20 table 1-1
You will find Academy Cadets and Senior ROTC cadets are in precedence between Warrant officers and NCO.
Generally a Senior ROTC cadet is a 3rd or 4th year scholarship contracted cadet.
So a 1st and 2nd year non contracted cadets have no rank as it applies to service members.

Though in the Cadet command and working with them, we commonly referred to all cadets as "sir" or "Ma'am" Or "Cadet Name"

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2017 11:28 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 Oct 2017 11:28:23 -0400

The Cadet that insists he or she outranks NCOs is an idiot looking for attention. Whenever I work with the real army or foreign militaries, I just expect to be treated with respect and professionalism. If not, then I'll address it.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Oct 24 at 2017 11:38 AM

SGT Dave Tracy — Tue, 24 Oct 2017 11:38:04 -0400

Yes, but...
(always a good start to a story)

If you want to have a good time, grab you some popcorn, have a seat, and watch what happens when a know-it-all cadet tries to tell a battle-hardened Infantry Platoon Sergeant what's-what. Having watched that show before, I can tell you, that's some good entertainment!

Response by MSG Lonnie Averkamp made Oct 24 at 2017 12:44 PM

MSG Lonnie Averkamp — Tue, 24 Oct 2017 12:44:21 -0400

The man holding the reins of the wagon may be "in charge", but he is going to have a hard time moving the wagon down the road without the cooperation of the horses.

Response by SFC Christopher Taggart made Oct 24 at 2017 12:52 PM

SFC Christopher Taggart — Tue, 24 Oct 2017 12:52:06 -0400

If the Cadet wants to be “in charge,” let him! The first time he falls on his ass or gets an ass-chewing…remind him, “Sir, remember, you’re in charge!”

Response by SGT Mark Halmrast made Oct 24 at 2017 1:20 PM

SGT Mark Halmrast — Tue, 24 Oct 2017 13:20:23 -0400

Whiskey tango foxtrot.
I did not know that.
Well, that's brutal, plain and simple.

Glad I did not know that when I was active.
God help the cadets who "outranked" me during their summers at Bragg w/the 82nd if we had known.

Brutal.

Response by SGT Tony Clifford made Oct 24 at 2017 1:30 PM

SGT Tony Clifford — Tue, 24 Oct 2017 13:30:04 -0400

Technically they do according to regulations, but in practice they don't. I would also say the same about 2LTs. They're in charge on paper, but in reality the PSG runs the platoon. Officers don't really know what they're doing until it's about time for them to move up to XO or an S-Shop. It's kind of a sad irony that a fresh faced college kid is granted, by virtue of a degree, authority over experienced NCOs.

Response by SGT Eliyahu Rooff made Oct 24 at 2017 1:48 PM

SGT Eliyahu Rooff — Tue, 24 Oct 2017 13:48:19 -0400

I'd love to see one try pulling rank on a CSM. The show would be well worth the price of admission.

Response by Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2017 8:52 PM

Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 Oct 2017 20:52:57 -0400

I was in ROTC and am now an OC instead. This is technically correct but a Cadet, unless authority is given to him by an actual commissioned officer, has none(even then its technically the officer who gave the authority's authority). So if say a Cadet was in a foreign country or on an exercise and the PL was killed or incapacitated by something the Platoon Sergeant or next highest ranking enlisted would assume command not the cadet because he doesn't fall into the chain of command of that unit. The likelihood of such an occurrence while possible due to some of the countries Cadets can go to in the summer is highly unlikely.

The only situation that I can think of where a cadet would ever have command authority in combat is if for some reason they were sending a unit of cadets into combat. Then the senior cadet would naturally have said authority. I vaguely recall a story from the civil war where that happened but I think that was on the confederate side. If they did that in a modern war I think that would mean we're screwed.

Response by LTJG Richard Bruce made Oct 24 at 2017 10:28 PM

LTJG Richard Bruce — Tue, 24 Oct 2017 22:28:39 -0400

As a former USCG cadet and a former JO who had cadets assigned under my supervision, the role of cadets in a unit is outlined in command memorandum. A lot of work is put into reassigning existing crew to make room for Cadets and how their time will be spent. In my experience aboard ship, 1/C cadets are treated as junior officers, 2/C are treated as petty officers, and 3/C are treated as non-rates. Cadets are instructed on how to interact with ship's crew and how they fit in. They are rotated among all divisions. So, level of enthusiasm will vary. Cadets are evaluated by selected officers. The evaluations affect their precedence order at the Academy which in turn affects their first billet assignment.

Response by SPC Casey Ashfield made Oct 25 at 2017 12:04 AM

SPC Casey Ashfield — Wed, 25 Oct 2017 00:04:26 -0400

An E-7 from the 75th Rangers I worked with called them all "Cadidiots" to their faces. Smart Cadets shut up and learn from NCOs. The dumb ones don't last long at all and usually get transferred. Best show I ever got was a Cadet freshly made into a 2LT who was going to make some "hard and fast changes" now that he was "in charge" of the same unit he shadowed as a Cadet. He got berated by the E-6 in charge for about 2 hours. Word got up to the LTC who shipped the 2LT to be someone else's problem. 2LTs are a dime a dozen, and no commander wants to give up a seasoned NCO over a fresh better bar.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2017 10:39 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Oct 2017 10:39:29 -0400

Hell NO !! they are dots not Officers yet.

Response by SSG Paul Carrier made Oct 26 at 2017 12:05 AM

SSG Paul Carrier — Thu, 26 Oct 2017 00:05:38 -0400

I always called them Spot.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2017 3:28 AM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 04 Nov 2017 03:28:05 -0400

If you want to be technical, cadets are not commissioned. They are in the learning process. I have a few NCO instructors and it doesn't matter if they outrank me or not. They deserve my respect and listening ear. I stand at parade rest when speaking to them. I'm am ROTC cadet.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2017 3:30 AM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 04 Nov 2017 03:30:13 -0400

Also, depending on the year of college that a cadet is in determines their ranking. On my ID card, my rank and pay grade are Enlisted. With that understanding, we can infer that cadets do not outrank NCO's.

Response by SGT Christopher Lachcik made Nov 4 at 2017 8:43 AM

SGT Christopher Lachcik — Sat, 04 Nov 2017 08:43:29 -0400

No.

Response by CPL Anthony Slaughter made Nov 4 at 2017 9:04 AM

CPL Anthony Slaughter — Sat, 04 Nov 2017 09:04:30 -0400

A Cadet once tried to pull rank on me in front of a Major, I guess to show how tough he was or something stupid like that, and so I smiled and casually told him that he ain't shit until he receives his commission, which probably wasn't going to happen with that attitude.
The Major started laughing, and the Cadet's face turned all red, it was great.

Response by MSG Floyd Williams made Nov 4 at 2017 10:37 AM

MSG Floyd Williams — Sat, 04 Nov 2017 10:37:27 -0400

I used to treat cadets like regular Officers, it was just my way of helping him/her to adjust into military life.

Response by SSG Will Phillips made Nov 6 at 2017 4:59 PM

SSG Will Phillips — Mon, 06 Nov 2017 16:59:47 -0500

I will leave the legal determination as to "who truly out ranks who" to those in paygrades higher than mine. That being said, as an 11B2P NCO I trained many a cadet at Ft. Bragg. As they would be future officers, I always referred to them as Sir or Ma'am and did by best to respectful and not be too condescending towards them. I in turn was always treated with the upmost respect from them. After all ... An NCO's job is to train soldiers (private's) and officers to the best of their abilities.

Response by SGT Chad Berck made Nov 6 at 2017 5:02 PM

SGT Chad Berck — Mon, 06 Nov 2017 17:02:34 -0500

Technically, they do. Realistically, they are there to learn. The NCO should be there to advise and instruct. Cadets should know their place however. I was both and NCO and then a cadet later in my career. So, it was a strange transition for me. But for the green cadets, some struggled with ego. While others excelled with social skills and had no problems with junior enlisted or NCO’s. Usually, the NCO’s would test the cadets ability to deal with them at different attitudes and that would set the outcome of the weeks ahead. I cheated and broke the “officer” no no training rules and would just go “smoke and joke” a few times to form a little bond with the troops. Helped to break the ice with the new unit.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2017 5:42 PM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Nov 2017 17:42:06 -0500

Senior ROTC and all(?) Academy Cadets are somewhere between Enlisted and Warrant Officers. I'm not quite sure where contracted junior cadets land though*.

In regards to your question, refer him to the saltiest NCO you can find, preferably (in my humble, biased opinion), a Navy MCPO, and have the cadet in question tell the Master Chief how strongly he believes that he outranks the Anchor.

Unless a cadet is just giving shit to his friends or family (in private) who are NCO's, there's no place for the cadet to go spouting off about his rank. I'd just find the nearest O and suggest a smoke session for a quick lesson on how the rank structure actually works. Or is that hazing now?

*A prior service Navy O-3 told me recently I was equivalent to an E-5, but I'm unsure if he knew I was a second year cadet.

Response by MAJ Haris Balcinovic made Nov 6 at 2017 6:09 PM

MAJ Haris Balcinovic — Mon, 06 Nov 2017 18:09:42 -0500

AR 600-20 Army Command Policy is pretty clear about that yes cadets do outrank NCOs.
Furthermore in the succession of command for "2-8. Death, disability, retirement, reassignment, or absence of the commander" it outlines the order of Senior regularly assigned Army Soldier.
However,
If you have a cadet that's going around "commanding" NCOs what to do you have an uninvolved officers and commander in your unit who should guide mentor and teach that young cadet some common sense and etiquette. This can similarly be applied to 2LTs.
Now for you butthurt NCOs - calm down instead of taking the approach of those are just some wet behind the ears cadidiots - keep in mind they will become commissioned officers and commander sooner or later, and run a platoon, company, or even battalion and higher. So two things: 1) instead of acting high and mighty - bring those cadets under your arm and teach them something, 2) if they get a little lippy or high and mighty bring them down to earth (I don't have to outline the procedures here).
Bottom line is this stupid tension and hatred of officers from the enlisted side starts here with cadets and 2LTs - as a former NCO I'll tell you, you have a golden opportunity to mentor and mold some good young officers instead of alienating them.

Response by SSG Joseph VanDyck made Nov 6 at 2017 6:13 PM

SSG Joseph VanDyck — Mon, 06 Nov 2017 18:13:34 -0500

No. Cadets that are ROTC and SMP in the US Army Reserves/ US Army National Guard are paid at the E5 level. They have no rank, but they fall into formations like officers. When I was a platoon sgt, if the cadets tried to tell me they out ranked me, we would be finding a Coke machine to elevate their feet onto as I explained life in the army to them. Once they were commissioned, that's another story.

Response by SCPO William Akin made Nov 6 at 2017 6:28 PM

SCPO William Akin — Mon, 06 Nov 2017 18:28:29 -0500

Meaning no disrespect to you, your rank, or your station in life, but......
Don't let your alligator mouth overload your hummin bird ass child..
Karma has no time limit

Response by LTC William Gilmore made Nov 6 at 2017 6:46 PM

LTC William Gilmore — Mon, 06 Nov 2017 18:46:33 -0500

Cadets in your unit for training should be treated as future officers. Give them the same respect as you would an officer just as you would expect respect from them as an NCO.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Nov 6 at 2017 9:16 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Mon, 06 Nov 2017 21:16:07 -0500

The First Wannabe Navy Pilot wants to Pull Rank on Me, Might Run Into a Bit of Problem. I'm Still Pissy Having to Salute that Damn Sticker on their Car when I was Gate Guard at NTTC Pensacola. Since then, I Don't Necessarily Play Nice with Fighter Jock Wannabes, Actually I'm Kind of Rude!~

Response by SFC Steve Christian made Nov 7 at 2017 8:11 AM

SFC Steve Christian — Tue, 07 Nov 2017 08:11:29 -0500

A cadet is an E6, unless it's changed in the past 5 years.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2017 8:16 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 07 Nov 2017 08:16:59 -0500

Cadets usually receive E5 or E6 pay, depending on ROTC or OCS, to put things in perspective. Don't mistake rank for position. An E7 platoon Sergeant definitely doesn't answer to a Cadet, and 1SG/CSM is a command position, as you are part of a command team with that Captain/LTC. They absolutely do not answer to any cadet, ever, under any circumstances.

Bottom line- a cadet's purpose when amongst the rank and file and not in school is the same as an LT- learn as much as you can from your senior NCO's so you aren't a complete failure as a Commander in the future.

Response by PO2 Ron Gunsolus made Nov 7 at 2017 11:31 AM

PO2 Ron Gunsolus — Tue, 07 Nov 2017 11:31:32 -0500

Technically, they outrank'' NCO's and and are under warrants... practically, we just laughed those few that wanted us to salute them - they were not assigned to our CoC to be clear...

Response by SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres made Nov 7 at 2017 1:42 PM

SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres — Tue, 07 Nov 2017 13:42:03 -0500

A cadet interfered with a dispute between a PFC and myself as a PFC. I frankly told him, that he needed to stay in his lane as he was here for a field trip and nothing more. I do feel sorry for my words but he had no reason to step in to a private matter he stumbled on. To then Cadet Branch, I'm sorry.

Once saw a 2LT disrespect a SGM. Let's just say the LTC immediately put a stop to that nonsense in front of everyone at that CDR's brief.... I was shocked and dumbfounded about the 2LTs actions, and none of the other Officers were too happy with that mindset. You might outrank the senior NCO, but believe me, you don't have nearly the knowledge, experience, respect, etc etc.

So to tie it all together, no one gives too shits if a cadet outranks the NCO, no one. Show respect and you will get it back in return. It's simple and most things were/are.

Response by MAJ Gregory Jankowiak made Nov 7 at 2017 3:24 PM

MAJ Gregory Jankowiak — Tue, 07 Nov 2017 15:24:36 -0500

For the most part cadets tended to be invisible when we had them in my units during their rotations. I don't mean that as a slight, I'm saying that they were generally good dudes and dudettes who showed up on time and did what they were supposed to do while they were with us. I don't recall any of them making waves or trying to pull non-existent "rank", but maybe that was because I was an officer. I do remember that they would get destroyed during Jump School at Benning, the Black Hats generally treated them worse than new Privates.

Response by SSG(P) Dan Keene made Nov 7 at 2017 5:45 PM

SSG(P) Dan Keene — Tue, 07 Nov 2017 17:45:41 -0500

I don't think they do, but we were on summer break rotations for them, and we were told to treat them as though they were 3rd LTs. I only had 1 serious issue with 1, when he pulled rank on me in front of my soldiers. He apologized at formation the next morning.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2017 11:29 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 07 Nov 2017 23:29:25 -0500

All I will say is it was very entertaining dealing with Cadets. Who were amongst Battle Hardened Veterans. The consensus was if the Cadet will not listen will not learn. Then Let him Fall not Fail but Fall down and be there when he or she did. Some fell hard and learned a valuable lesson.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Nov 8 at 2017 2:10 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Wed, 08 Nov 2017 14:10:43 -0500

Out rank doesn't mean out smart.

Response by GySgt Charles O'Connell made Nov 8 at 2017 2:37 PM

GySgt Charles O'Connell — Wed, 08 Nov 2017 14:37:48 -0500

NO, NO, A THOUSAND TIMES NO! They are Cadets, under training, there to learn, not to assume responsibilities they are not ready.

Response by SSG John Jensen made Nov 8 at 2017 4:39 PM

SSG John Jensen — Wed, 08 Nov 2017 16:39:03 -0500

told one cadet that the E-5 on his ID card was a pay grade not a rank.
and every PVT who goes through Basic Training memorizes every rank in the Army and there is no Cadet in the list.
Cadet/E-5 is not a rank, it is a pay grade

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2017 10:04 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 Dec 2017 22:04:31 -0500

Cadets do not outrank an NCO until they officially commission into the US military, which does not happen until completion of their schooling/training.

Response by SPC William Smith made Dec 10 at 2017 1:46 AM

SPC William Smith — Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:46:24 -0500

I've trained thousands of cadets and my answer is this those cadets are NOT completely commissioned until they've completed BOLC they are warranted a salute and the greeting of the day in garrison. Other than that they're on a student status and are not ENTITLED to any special treatment.

Response by CSM Tee Oden made Jan 14 at 2018 8:47 AM

CSM Tee Oden — Sun, 14 Jan 2018 08:47:29 -0500

Respect for rank and respect for an individual is two different things. As I had cadets and 2LTs in my unit, we had a CLEAR understanding who is in charge upon arrival!!! I've had the pleasure of reminding one Cadet once and he developed into an outstanding retired Brigadier General. We have been friends now for 32 years.

Response by GySgt Charles O'Connell made Jan 14 at 2018 9:24 AM

GySgt Charles O'Connell — Sun, 14 Jan 2018 09:24:17 -0500

Since a Cadet is not actually in the Armed Forces until their training is complete, I'd have the little sh*t get me another cup of coffee.

Response by Capt Andrew Hairston made Jan 14 at 2018 9:40 AM

Capt Andrew Hairston — Sun, 14 Jan 2018 09:40:54 -0500

My thoughts are that a cadet/candidate/whatever their respective branch calls them does not necessarily outrank an NCO. At least in the Marine Corps, going through OCS as a candidate you're not technically a Marine Officer until you receive your commission, and that is when you first receive any form of actual military rank.

Response by SGT Tim Fridley made Jan 14 at 2018 11:17 AM

SGT Tim Fridley — Sun, 14 Jan 2018 11:17:40 -0500

Technically yes they do however a good Officer will inform the cadets to listen to their NCOs

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 14 at 2018 12:16 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 14 Jan 2018 12:16:28 -0500

No. On paper, a cadet's pay grade is E-5. The "best" argument they could have is that they are "equal" to an E-5, which we all know is wrong. If the cadets you deal with insist they outrank NCOs, please direct them to the nearest NCO (better yet, a senior NCO) and have them try and explain that to them. It will be a great time, I promise!

Response by PO1 Barbara Matthews made Jan 14 at 2018 7:35 PM

PO1 Barbara Matthews — Sun, 14 Jan 2018 19:35:25 -0500

Times like this make me glad I'm a VETERAN. I served my time and my rank is in a shadow box.

Response by SN Jay Perry made Jan 20 at 2018 8:17 AM

SN Jay Perry — Sat, 20 Jan 2018 08:17:54 -0500

I know that in the USN the two lower years were generally treated as being non-rated (below E-3) status. The third year usually got treated as something like a first class (E-6). And the fourth years were in khaki's and got treated something like JO's (O-1's with about as much real respect). Most departments on the ship would have a list of crap jobs for the middies to do while they were in their divisions.

Response by SN Jay Perry made Jan 20 at 2018 8:19 AM

SN Jay Perry — Sat, 20 Jan 2018 08:19:20 -0500

About half the NCO's I know of on the ship would probably take a little monster down a notch if he thought that in the USN, at least on small ships!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2018 6:20 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Jan 2018 06:20:39 -0500

The only interaction with NCOs cadets should be worried about is being coached/mentored/developed by them. This process will continue long after they commission, particularly if they are lucky enough to take a command one day. I wouldn't be successful without my 1SG at my side daily.

Response by SPC Christopher Trafnik made Jan 26 at 2018 7:03 AM

SPC Christopher Trafnik — Fri, 26 Jan 2018 07:03:13 -0500

No they don't

Response by Cpl Tommie Newton made Mar 22 at 2018 4:20 PM

Cpl Tommie Newton — Thu, 22 Mar 2018 16:20:15 -0400

A cadet ? Bwhahaha

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Mar 22 at 2018 5:47 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Thu, 22 Mar 2018 17:47:31 -0400

NO<NO<NO, LAMO

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2018 6:28 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Mar 2018 18:28:37 -0400

Cadets in Jump school didn't out rank any active service personnel, and their were 300+ students, they were college students studying to be an officer in the services. That's just my opinion, but they did outrank each other in ROTC.
Also, no one in Jump school was addressed with rank, but the officers were called by the Cadre as ,"Sir", we had from LTC to 2nd LT in our ranks.

Response by Jim Mounce made Mar 25 at 2018 3:51 PM

Jim Mounce — Sun, 25 Mar 2018 15:51:23 -0400

Cadets were training not given authority to boss anyone around. I remember one time I asked a bunch of cadets if they would turn in their druggy friend. It was fun listening to all the answers. The proper answer was I don't have druggy friends.

Response by MSG Michael Fitzpatrick made May 5 at 2018 10:17 AM

MSG Michael Fitzpatrick — Sat, 05 May 2018 10:17:30 -0400

Response by CSM Tee Oden made May 6 at 2018 5:17 AM

CSM Tee Oden — Sun, 06 May 2018 05:17:32 -0400

I encountered such a cadet or two in my day. Let's say that Cadet now a MG still calls me Sir! He drives me nuts and we have been friends since June 1989. LoL

Response by COL Jerry C. made May 13 at 2018 2:12 PM

COL Jerry C. — Sun, 13 May 2018 14:12:11 -0400

See AR 600-20. A Cadet does outrank an enlisted person, but not a Warrant.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 13 at 2018 7:10 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Sun, 13 May 2018 19:10:10 -0400

They are not commissioned some how can they out rank anyone LOL

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made May 13 at 2018 8:19 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Sun, 13 May 2018 20:19:14 -0400

When I was a "Cadidiot" we didn't fall under UCMJ and no one knew whether to sit, stand, shit or salute when they saw that shiny circle on my hat. NCOs were asked to respect us as an officer (we were after all officers with training wheels) but when it came down to it we did not outrank them. CSMs just treated us like 2LTs - we were there but pretty much invisible and our volume was too low for them to hear us when we said something :-)

Response by MSgt Carl Stokes made May 13 at 2018 8:34 PM

MSgt Carl Stokes — Sun, 13 May 2018 20:34:28 -0400

Are you fhgjjiing kidding me?!?!?! This is even a question. This would be the last day on this freggin planet for a cadet that even wasted my time with this nonsense.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made May 13 at 2018 8:46 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 13 May 2018 20:46:57 -0400

I would warn the cadet not to even think about ordering the soldiers and NCOs. Most don't even know the principles of war.

Response by MSG Mark Szyman made May 13 at 2018 9:01 PM

MSG Mark Szyman — Sun, 13 May 2018 21:01:10 -0400

Cadets are paid as E5.

Response by 1SG Patrick Holmes made May 18 at 2018 5:30 PM

1SG Patrick Holmes — Fri, 18 May 2018 17:30:21 -0400

Not if theyre smart.

Response by 1SG Patrick Holmes made May 18 at 2018 5:32 PM

1SG Patrick Holmes — Fri, 18 May 2018 17:32:46 -0400

A good Sergeant can salute and say sir and make the recipeant grind his teeth

Response by Cpl Ben Marquez made May 21 at 2018 10:49 AM

Cpl Ben Marquez — Mon, 21 May 2018 10:49:13 -0400

They are cadets, not yet commissioned or members of any branch of the military. Therefore privileges afforded commissioned officers are not theirs to claim. Including salutes.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 17 at 2018 5:08 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 17 Oct 2018 05:08:58 -0400

One summer while covering cadet summer camp as part of a Medevac crew, we were briefed and told that cadets have only signed a scholarship contract and would not be official members of the military until they commissioned. It was intriguing because during the same summer camp, some were scheduled to attend jump school and wear jump wings.
I was also briefed that they were paid as E5’s and to address them as Cadet Smith or whatever their last name. Never had one question our authority and by the same token, we treated them with respect. Some of them were looking for commissions as MSC officers.

Response by PO2 Whitney Mulberry-Chaplin made Oct 18 at 2018 9:05 PM

PO2 Whitney Mulberry-Chaplin — Thu, 18 Oct 2018 21:05:50 -0400

Wow. We often had. Cadets come out for a FAM trip familarization in my 1st squadron. Of course they thought they were king cheese. Ya. Nope. We would do some pretty basic mean kid stuff to these poor guys when they went on their 1st jet ride. The list is quite long. My fav was giving them a clear garbage bag for their "cookies" to ne tossed in. We also hazed them basically about seat ejections and so on. They stopped being so high and mighty acting and had better understanding of who was in control of the AC till launching. Geez. I'm not for being disrespectful but sometimes I really had to bite my tongue. Or just hand them my tool pouch and walk away since they "knew" so much. Aw. The old days.
But...EVERY launch was done with a smart salute at the end.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2018 8:25 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Nov 2018 20:25:35 -0500

They do outrank NCOs and warrant officers. We are considered higher ranking than a WO5 and considered lower than a 2LT.

Response by COL Jerry C. made Nov 9 at 2018 9:58 PM

COL Jerry C. — Fri, 09 Nov 2018 21:58:36 -0500

This question has come up and was discussed some time back however you will find your answer in AR 600-20, Army Comand Policy, which makes it pretty clear that West Point cadets do, in fact, outrank Army NCOs. This regulation shows that cadets rank after commissioned and warrant officers, but before NCOs.

If you have question regarding duty assignment and authority you will find the answer in the same AR in section 2.

Response by MSgt Mark Bucher made Nov 9 at 2018 11:54 PM

MSgt Mark Bucher — Fri, 09 Nov 2018 23:54:48 -0500

In a word; NO

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2018 2:09 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 12 Nov 2018 02:09:44 -0500

Yes, they out rank NCOs per reg. Any cadet worth a shit, don't pull rank period. Myself and a PFC assisted a fresh AF 2LT on the ins and outs of what we do because he had no clue and admitted as much. His humble attitude and willingness to learn garnered mountains of respect from all of us. When fuck ups happened, he admitted fault. He turned out to be an amazing leader and should be coming up on CPT soon.

Response by MSG Bob Weaver made Nov 12 at 2018 5:53 PM

MSG Bob Weaver — Mon, 12 Nov 2018 17:53:36 -0500

Years ago we were tasked with a portion of ROTC Summer Camp, specifically patrolling. Had a cadet that was prior service E5 11B that had served with the 82d. He was constantly questioning everything. He happened to be the PL as we were moving thru a thigh deep swamp. I called "Patrol Leader" and he came scampering up looking all important. I told him we'd take a 30 minute break in place. So down they went into the water, heard lots of serious grumbling from his classmates. Laughed my ass off, never heard a peep from him again.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2018 6:05 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 12 Nov 2018 18:05:11 -0500

Lol no one wants my opinion on this.

Response by SFC Pat Mattson made Nov 13 at 2018 9:28 AM

SFC Pat Mattson — Tue, 13 Nov 2018 09:28:25 -0500

I manage dining services at a university and I have a lot of interaction with cadets of all services. I found most are very respectful and are willing to listen to NCOs ( even former). I have also worked with Service academy cadets (also I have relatives who graduated from them) and I have the same experiences.
I jokingly call the Cadidiots when someone makes a bonehead mistake, however all and all it’s been a pleasure to work with cadets.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2018 11:37 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Nov 2018 11:37:50 -0500

In the Guard, Contracted Cadets are E-5s. How we're treated varies from cadet to cadet and unit to unit. In theory we shadow the LT we're assigned to and perform whatever duties are asked of us. In practice, inept or cocky cadets are treated like a better paid private, solid cadets who show show some humilty and willingness to learn, which is why we're there, practical leadership training, are treated like junior NCOs or Officers based on the role they fill. I know it's a different animal from the CTLT cadets the active guys deal with since in the Guard we're still soldiers in the unit, and remaun there until we commission, but thats been experience going from E4 to cadet and now commissioning in a few months.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Nov 13 at 2018 12:28 PM

CPT Jack Durish — Tue, 13 Nov 2018 12:28:41 -0500

Let them have their delusions. They will be better prepared when the first attempt to mess with NCOs after they become 0-1's

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Nov 13 at 2018 12:37 PM

SFC Ralph E Kelley — Tue, 13 Nov 2018 12:37:00 -0500

Its true but they are not normally in the chain of command but carried as observers.

AR 600-20, Section 2:2-18:a:(3)

2-8. Death, disability, retirement, reassignment, or absence of the commander

a. Commander of Army element.

(1) If a commander of an Army element, other than a commander of a headquarters and headquarters element, dies, becomes disabled, retires, is reassigned, or is temporarily absent, the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier will assume command.

(2) If the commander of a headquarters and headquarters element dies, becomes disabled, retires, is reassigned, or is temporarily absent, the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier of the particular headquarters and headquarters element who performs duties within the element will assume command. For example, if a division headquarters and headquarters company commander is temporarily absent, the executive officer as the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier who performs duties within the headquarters company would assume command and not the division commander.

THIS IS THE CRITICAL PARAGRAPH

(3) Senior regularly assigned Army Soldier refers (in order of priority) to officers, WOs, Cadets, NCOs, Specialists, or Privates present for duty unless they are ineligible under paragraphs 2-15 or 2-16. They assume command until relieved by proper authority except as provided in 2-8c. Assumption of command under these conditions is announced per paragraph 2-5. However, the announcement will indicate assumption as acting commander unless designated as permanent by the proper authority. It is not necessary to rescind the announcement designating an acting commander to assume duties of the commander “during the temporary absence of the regularly assigned commander” if the announcement gives the time element involved. A rescinding announcement is required if the temporary assumption of command is for an indefinite period.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Nov 13 at 2018 12:43 PM

SMSgt Lawrence McCarter — Tue, 13 Nov 2018 12:43:31 -0500

Don't confuse a Cadet rank with that of and Officer or NCO on active duty, the guard or Reserve. Cadet rank only exist inside the Cadet Structure. A Cadet officer only merits a salute from Cadets of lower rank and not even a private has to salute a Cadet officer or any other Cadet. They do not even outrank a private let alone an NCO. Until such time as the are no longer a Cadet and actually receive a Commission they have no standing to issue orders to anyone but a Cadet of lower rank within the Cadet structure. They are students leaning to be officers, NOT Officers of the Armed Forces, or its Reserve or Guard components. Until a Cadet is either a Commissioned or Warrant Officer He has no right or authority to give any orders to anyone but a lower ranking Cadet. I have been Cadet and also instructed Cadets and certainly knew Who was in charge between the two and it was NEVER the Cadet. This is a case of someone that is only a Cadet trainee that somehow thinks He is more important than He actually is. I don't know where some Cadets have come up with those foolish ideas by NO Regulation, Army, Navy, Marines or Coast Guard or Instruction in the Air Force give them that status over enlisted people of any rank until they are actually Commissioned. A Cadet wishing or think that doesn't make it true and I'm happy to report I Myself haven't witnessed any Cadet make that statement or try to exert authority He or She doesn't even have !

Response by SFC Brian Randall made Nov 13 at 2018 12:52 PM

SFC Brian Randall — Tue, 13 Nov 2018 12:52:46 -0500

Cadets are not in the Regular Army until they commission from their respective institutes and don the 2LT bars. As a Second Lieutenant, I would not even attempt to approach an NCO with that type of rhetoric. Don't care if that 2LT is a prior service individual or participated in the Simultaneous Membership Program (SMP) as a cadet. Set them straight Specialist.

Response by SFC Harry H. made Nov 13 at 2018 12:53 PM

SFC Harry H. — Tue, 13 Nov 2018 12:53:48 -0500

They outrank a CSM technically. But one should always keep in mind, a CSM's other half is a C.O.L. LOL!, and a SFC's is a 1st or 2nd LT. They get paid as an E-5 though. Good ones know their role and aren't really ever an issue.

Response by LTC Ken Connolly made Nov 13 at 2018 12:57 PM

LTC Ken Connolly — Tue, 13 Nov 2018 12:57:13 -0500

They will change their minds after getting a few miles under their belts.

Response by Cpl Jonathan Ake made Nov 13 at 2018 2:29 PM

Cpl Jonathan Ake — Tue, 13 Nov 2018 14:29:37 -0500

The best I've experienced was when I was a Corporal TAD in the Company office on light duty after an injury standing outside for a smoke break, I greeted a brand new 2Lt with all the protocols and he said, "Your not in boot camp anymore Marine." A few minutes later I passed him in the corridor again (this time he was talking to a Captain) I passed silently by as was customary so as not to interrupt his reporting in. The 2Lt yelled, "No proper greeting of the day!?" I replied, "You told me I wasn't in boot camp anymore, sir." The Captain then yelled, "You said that to one of my Marines? Understand this quickly, 2Lt, the lowest private here has more time in than you."

Response by PO2 Michael Sayre made Nov 13 at 2018 4:02 PM

PO2 Michael Sayre — Tue, 13 Nov 2018 16:02:18 -0500

Well, they either paid good money or took out a substantial loan to pay for that tuition that affords them air of superiority that grants them that level of authority.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2018 4:36 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Nov 2018 16:36:56 -0500

AR 600-25 lists hand salutes to be rendered between officers and enlisted.
a. For instructions on executing the hand salute, see FM 3–21.5, paragraph 4–4.
b. All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute.
Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of
the Armed Forces of the United States (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard), the commissioned corps
of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the commissioned corps of the Public Health Service
entitled to the salute.

Cadets have not been commissioned and do not hold a position of officer until they complete the service academy or ROTC. AS SUCH, they aren't entitled to a salute.

With that said. Cadet command Circular 145-11-98 leaves this up to commanders to ENCOURAGE rendering courtesies to cadets

Long winded I know, but no, you aren't REQUIRED to salute

Response by SSgt Ron Hazel made Nov 13 at 2018 5:44 PM

SSgt Ron Hazel — Tue, 13 Nov 2018 17:44:31 -0500

As a SSG I had the honor of being a friends first salute when he graduated from the US Naval Acadamey and it is a source of pride and an honor to watch a young midshipman grow into a fine naval officer with guidance and a teaching hand. The flip side of this is while at the graduation I saluted a group of newly minted USMC 2LT’s, one of whiches uncles was an army LTG. The LTG asked me if I would impart a little wisdom on the new 2LT’s and when I mentioned learning from their NCO’s one 2LT stated he out ranked a Gunny. Long story short the LTG’s eyes crossed in disbelief and I asked if I could correct the young Lieutenant. Most young officers or cadets will struggle and stumble somewhere along the way and as an NCO it’s your job to teach and foster.i

Response by SSgt Tim Ricci made Nov 13 at 2018 6:06 PM

SSgt Tim Ricci — Tue, 13 Nov 2018 18:06:05 -0500

Oh, you mean the 3rd Lieutenants

Response by SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA made Nov 13 at 2018 6:06 PM

SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA — Tue, 13 Nov 2018 18:06:21 -0500

Do they outrank enlisted personnel? YES
Are they entitled to being saluted? NO
Do they know how to wipe their butts without asking an NCO first? NO

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2018 6:36 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Nov 2018 18:36:20 -0500

NO! For two reasons.
1. They're cadets.
2. They're fucking cadets.
Although they have the pay grade of E-5, they do not outrank any NCO. Do not be afraid to tell them as much.

Response by Sgt Danny Eytcheson Sr. made Nov 13 at 2018 8:27 PM

Sgt Danny Eytcheson Sr. — Tue, 13 Nov 2018 20:27:06 -0500

Why would a Cadet even think this ?
It would be like a USMC OCS boot camp OFFICER thinking he/she out ranks a USMC Pvt. Neither a Caset nor an OCS Officer candidate are not considered in the military until they GRADUATE their respective incoming training.
NO way. Not in my book.
Oorah.
Sgt, USMC
Semper Fi.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2018 9:15 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Nov 2018 21:15:40 -0500

I’m seeing a lot of talk about I get paid more so I don’t have to listen to them. By that logic when I was an O2-E I didn’t have to listen to a captain because I made more. A major wrote earlier that you have to drop your ego, that cadet might some day become general and because of some ego manic they won’t have any respect for the NCO, or warrant Corp. Remeber it’s suppose to be one team, one fight.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2018 9:44 PM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Nov 2018 21:44:37 -0500

That is a sign of this generation. In my book, cadets are lower than PVTs. Today’s cadets, no much about nothing.
My fellow cadets and I always showed respect for our NCOs. They were a wealth of information on how to do things by the book and to do things the right way. My father was an NCO, I new who was who from his influence.

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2018 9:47 PM

CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Nov 2018 21:47:11 -0500

Technically, yes. In real life... yeah, NO. And any cadet that is saying that is going to find themselves in some hot water later in their career. That level of arrogance is why officers get a bad wrap.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2018 10:33 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Nov 2018 22:33:18 -0500

I'm a specialist and I do enjoy every few months when a new batch of cadets comes through my hands to see the real Army. I don't care where you think you "Rank." Shut up and watch or ask questions. Those are your options and I've hurt some feelings over it.

Response by LCDR Robert Turner made Nov 13 at 2018 11:20 PM

LCDR Robert Turner — Tue, 13 Nov 2018 23:20:46 -0500

Cadets and Midshipmen are in the right spot for their station in life. At the bottom of the officer ranks and positioned to receive the best wisdom of the enlisted personnel they will lead someday. As such, they deserve wise counsel from above and below. If that counsel comes from a crusty and battle tested MSGT or CPO in the form of a private session, all the better. Save the theatre and popcorn for the ones who refuse to learn from their elders...

Response by SSG Joseph VanDyck made Nov 14 at 2018 7:27 AM

SSG Joseph VanDyck — Wed, 14 Nov 2018 07:27:58 -0500

Having run ranges for ROTC Cadets while a USAR NCO, dealt with USMA cadets on active duty and had SMP ROTC cadets in my company...I can tell you this...making cadets push is a certain kind of satisfaction...ROTC cadets should never ever think/believe they out rank E6/E7 drills, let alone 1SG's or CSM's. I wonder what my former teammate/ troop mate CSM Tim Guden (current TRADOC CSM and former USMA CSM) has to say about this.

Response by PO3 Thomas Kramin made Nov 14 at 2018 9:59 AM

PO3 Thomas Kramin — Wed, 14 Nov 2018 09:59:55 -0500

We had one on our ship. The Captain instructed us to respect his rank, but treat him like a Boot. So we did! We respected his rank... while watching him clean the Head!

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2018 10:26 AM

A1C Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:26:43 -0500

I know an Air Force Cadet insisted that myself and other Airmen (some NCOs and some not) salute him because he outranked us. When we told him that he didn’t he brought over a colonel. The colonel asked us why and our NCO at the time said “I do not recognize that as any rank in our rank structure and therefore did not salute.” Colonel turned to the cadet looked at the rank insignia, laughed and said “you’re right, carry on”. The look on the cadet side face was priceless. You can tell he’s gonna be a horrible lieutenant based on his superiority complex over enlisted.

Response by Cpl Tyler Therrien made Nov 14 at 2018 10:34 AM

Cpl Tyler Therrien — Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:34:40 -0500

not only NO but hell no they have not EARNED any rank yet. a short haircut is the only thing that separates them from being a civilian

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2018 10:43 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:43:25 -0500

Lol that’s funny. Cadets don’t outrank anyone. They aren’t even an officer, they are not in the military yet. They might wear the uniform but they are in college. They get paid E5 but the most junior E1 fresh out of AIT outranks the cadet. They are learning to be officers, they are not officers.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2018 12:35 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:35:29 -0500

Hahahahaha I would just ask when did you get your commission? Ohhh that’s what I thought!

Response by PO1 Don Gulizia made Nov 14 at 2018 1:01 PM

PO1 Don Gulizia — Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:01:33 -0500

Out rank...yes. In a position of higher authority....no. I don't get all the salty NCO crap. (especially the "cadidiot" type of stuff) To some 19-20 year old, on their first look at military life outside of the academy/college, all it does is reinforce the sterotypes of NCOs are @$$holes and enlisted are not to be trusted. I always treated the midshipmen like I was training a future boss...because, like it or not, I was. When that "kid" returns to the fleet, do I want him to trust his enlisted leaders or treat us with contempt?

Response by PO2 John Primeaux made Nov 14 at 2018 1:53 PM

PO2 John Primeaux — Wed, 14 Nov 2018 13:53:46 -0500

As a former midshipman and a former Navy NCO, I can tell you both sides of the coin. I never once attempted to outrank any NCO, or seaman for that matter. I received extra privilege as a MSM, but never flaunted it as ranking me higher.

All in all, respect is where you get rank as a MSM. If you respected NCOs....they were more prone to give you rank. If your ego went unchecked, expect to get put on 'mail buoy watch', 'mast lowering detail', or get asked to 'fetch a pail of steam' from the boiler operators.

Just my personal experience.....and I've been on given and received.

Response by CPT J B made Nov 14 at 2018 2:34 PM

CPT J B — Wed, 14 Nov 2018 14:34:14 -0500

You're probably talking about the cadets who come to a unit for two weeks or so in the summer after their advance camp training. They are under contract and technically have rank. But that's the first time most of them experience the real Army. Having volunteered for that duty as a cadet 100 years ago, I remember the cadets are highly encouraged by the leadership to "get involved", "take charge", etc. The whole thing is a little awkward, because no one really knows the protocols. But this is them training to be officers (in 9 more months). I'm not sure why the conversations about who outranks whom are taking place at all. The only advice I would dare to give would be to just set an example and be as professional as you can. It's just training for them. Personally, I think the LTs and battery commanders should be screwing with them more, policing them up, getting them in line and calling them out when they screw up. Maybe that happens, but I don't remember it being the case.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2018 3:58 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 14 Nov 2018 15:58:14 -0500

I would say look at your pay stub

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2018 7:55 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 14 Nov 2018 19:55:30 -0500

technically yes...but that will probably not end well...if I personally saw a cadet insisting he/she outrank a senior NCO, I will probably put the cadet in his/her place. I would never do that as a cadet...

a E5 maybe its ok, but E7 above....ha....will not end well...

I think it really comes down to experience and deployments/positions...a 2LT from ROTC simply do not have either (unless prior enlisted) therefore will never deserve the same respect till they earn it, hence why a prior service going to ROTC will at least "actually understand what the army life is all about' but would also depends on experience...A E5 with 2 deployments versus a SPC with no deployment both in ROTC, wont be the same.

Respect is to be earned, simple as that, rank isn't everything, maybe in pay and resume, but not in respect, even a junior NCO, but with deployments or critical assignments, in my eyes, deserves more respect than a newly commissioned 2LT.

I think it is important for a lot of 2LTs to realize this...ROTC is not at all hard compare to some of the things deployed soldiers have to face, it is not all about the rank, but to at least give the respect to those with more time in service and deployments is simply a soldier thing to do...such attitude will probably get you more cooperation and respect from the senior NCOs you have to work with as well. Commissioning, though comes with its own hardship, is a choice, not something to use to look down on others for. Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown...that officer rank indicate that you might need to humble yourself more to learn, influence and lead, especially early in career. Learn from the senior, influence by being among them, and lead by giving respect.

Response by SFC Matthew Wagner made Nov 14 at 2018 10:15 PM

SFC Matthew Wagner — Wed, 14 Nov 2018 22:15:18 -0500

Funny story. I was acting as a PSG at 2/75 (PSG was at ANCOC) and we got a rare CTLT cadet from West Point. This guy wanted to be an Armor Officer in Europe so they sent him to a Ranger BN in WA state. *shrug* It's the Army what'd you expect?

Anyway, we did an Air Mobile insertion with a 5k movement into a WMD interdiction raid. MOPP suits worn during the raid and of course a MOPP 4 march to the Oz. It sucked, and the kid was completely lost as a PL. Not his fault, he's a college student not an Infantry Officer much less an Officer with the experience required to be selected into the Regiment.

Anyway we're cleaning weapons and equipment and he walks into the office and asks "SGT, who do I give my weapon to?" I said "Once it's clean take it to the arms room." he says "Right, who do I give it to for cleaning?"

I don't know what the look on my face was but his face got kinda pale and I had an epiphany that prepared me for when it was my time to actually take a platoon. I told him to shut the door and have a seat. We talked about setting the example and never giving work to your men unless you absolutely have to. It was as much a learning experience for me as it was for him.

Response by SSG Ken Schiffner made Nov 15 at 2018 7:59 AM

SSG Ken Schiffner — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 07:59:27 -0500

I ETS’d (active duty, infantry) as an E-5. When I was in college I was recruited and joined ROTC. When I was sent to an infantry reserve unit I had enlisted and NCO’s calling me everything from sir, to Mr to hey you. It never bothered me because I knew the deal. I did not wear anything on my uniform except the usual patches and my silly cadet tank. I was treated well because, although I knew as much as most E-6’s and below, I let them do their jobs and learned from the Lt I was with. A yr later I decided on different career goals, quit ROTC and joined the same reserve unit. I showed up to my first drill with E-5 tank, jump wings, and an EIB badge. They knew I was prior service but we’re still surprised. I was treated great and had immediate respect, in part due to the way I acted as a cadet. The cadets are in units to learn, and those that act as if they are somebody usually get put in their place by an NCO or a good company commander.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2018 9:06 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 15 Nov 2018 09:06:14 -0500

I had a Spc who was under me in AFG. Now he’s a 2LT in the other Company. We share a mutual respect.

Response by COL Jerry C. made Nov 16 at 2018 1:53 PM

COL Jerry C. — Fri, 16 Nov 2018 13:53:35 -0500

This question seems to pop up now and again, and I think it really stems from NCO's who are either butt-hurt, have poor leadership skills or just too big an ego. AR 600-20, Army Command Policy, makes it pretty clear that West Point cadets do, in fact, outrank Army NCOs. This regulation shows that cadets rank after commissioned and warrant officers, but before NCOs. This includes CSM, but we all know a CSM has a special place in the chain of command and also usually are seasoned enough to know how to avoid this "thorn". Cadet's like all new leader need mentoring and that mentoring include showing the appropriate decorum and respect due to the rank.

Response by SGT Gary Stemen made Nov 16 at 2018 2:03 PM

SGT Gary Stemen — Fri, 16 Nov 2018 14:03:05 -0500

A cadet has no rating or rank as may apply to any regular service, only may be applicable to the unit of which he is a member.

Response by SGT Benjamin Foster made Nov 16 at 2018 2:20 PM

SGT Benjamin Foster — Fri, 16 Nov 2018 14:20:12 -0500

When I was in I was always saddled with training cadets. I never called them sir, it would be like calling an SPC Sergeant. If they were power tripping I would make them stand at parade rest when talking to me. Now when they commissioned I would call them sir and render the proper courtesies.

Response by PO2 Ron Gunsolus made Nov 16 at 2018 4:32 PM

PO2 Ron Gunsolus — Fri, 16 Nov 2018 16:32:44 -0500

LOL! I always showed respect to anyone in uniform (still do) BUT always referred to them as "Cadet-Lastname"... had one once insist that I salute him all call him sir... my response was polite, but unwaivering, and said I would gladly extend that courtesy once they were duly commisioned, gave them my immediate supervisors name if they wanted to 'report' me, and then went about my duties. They will learn, sooner, or later - but they will indeed learn... or wash out). Almost all Cadets I have interacted with were professional and good men that most certainly went on to be fine leaders... we do them no service by either belittling them nor by placating their egos. IMHO.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2018 5:20 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 17 Nov 2018 05:20:09 -0500

Technically, the cadidiot is correct. However, rank and juice are two very different things.

Response by SSgt W. Aaron Gregory made Nov 17 at 2018 6:23 AM

SSgt W. Aaron Gregory — Sat, 17 Nov 2018 06:23:36 -0500

Technically, it's true. They just simply are not in your chain of command. Tell your company commander why weapons didn't get cleaned and crypto equipment locked up and inventoried before Friday liberty by saying "Cadet Lieutenant Jones said we didn't have to!". I want to sell the tickets for THAT show! Captain Schmuckatelli is going to have ALL lieutenants and SNCOs in his/her office for a group ass-chewing! As he/she should.

For all intents and purposes, I have always thought of them as interns. Not once have I seen a cadet company commander or midshipman in charge of a battleship. I think that there is probably too much focus on rank in this regard. NCOs and SNCOs should willfully go out of their way to work with cadets/midshipmen and teach them how things work. Cadets/midshipmen should be seeking out NCOs and SNCOs to learn as well. This is your chance to teach officers what us enlisted folks do, on and off duty. The challenges, the successes, etc. Very soon, they WILL be the lieutenants and ensigns supervising platoons, departments, etc. This is your shot as enlisted personnel, to shape your future commanders. They will leave the academy or ROTC program as commissioned officers thinking "wow, I am going to show THEM a thing or two", or "wow, we have some seriously professional people in the enlisted ranks." Which do you want?

Response by PO1 Jesse Armstrong made Nov 17 at 2018 1:38 PM

PO1 Jesse Armstrong — Sat, 17 Nov 2018 13:38:35 -0500

In what I remember, they are not commissioned nor enlisted.... so there you go...

Response by SSG Joseph VanDyck made Nov 17 at 2018 4:20 PM

SSG Joseph VanDyck — Sat, 17 Nov 2018 16:20:55 -0500

Response by SSgt Joseph Ovady made Nov 17 at 2018 7:22 PM

SSgt Joseph Ovady — Sat, 17 Nov 2018 19:22:39 -0500

They are cadets. Just like new recruits who haven't finished basic. They have no rank.

Response by SPC Daniel Rankin made Nov 18 at 2018 6:37 PM

SPC Daniel Rankin — Sun, 18 Nov 2018 18:37:21 -0500

Never had that experience, but would have loved to have watched my master sgt burn one up lol.

Response by CWO3 Bryan Luciani made Nov 19 at 2018 9:54 AM

CWO3 Bryan Luciani — Mon, 19 Nov 2018 09:54:48 -0500

While this looks like an Army issue, in the Navy they outrank no one. At OCS, a candidate is paid E-5 money until he/she is commissioned. Unsure what the Naval Academy tells their "students" nor what any ROTC unit tells their cadets. We all know that any JO worth his/her new stripe keeps their mouths shut and their senior NCO real close. But that's the real world.

Response by CPT Mike Sims made Nov 20 at 2018 4:07 PM

CPT Mike Sims — Tue, 20 Nov 2018 16:07:45 -0500

Cadets, once they swear their oath to commission as an officer upon completion of their academic requirements hold the equal pay grade of an E-5 Sergeant. However, they are afforded the respect of a Lieutenant as they are "frocked" to and sometimes do hold positions as Platoon Leaders in Reserve or National Guard units. This is not to be confused with those who are Officer Candidates at OCS. All OCS candidates are NCOs or Warrant Officers seeking a commission. In addition, and especially in today's time - given the fact that we have been at war since 9-11-01... there are quite a few Cadets who are prior service and are likely Sergeants going through the Green to Gold program, so while they may be Cadets currently - it is smart to look on their right shoulder to determine if they have the requisite experience to challenge conventional wisdom of NCOs currently serving. If not, then I am certain a valuable lesson will happen for the Cadet - one in which he or she will come to appreciate when they become commissioned as a Lieutenant... and hopefully a caring NCO properly educates and trains the Cadet before they become commissioned and are responsible for troops.

I served 7 years in the military achieving the rank of E-5 Sergeant before earning my commission through ROTC. By that time, I was keenly aware that my position as a Cadet and as a future officer was a partnership with my Platoon Sergeant and my Section Chiefs - NCO Squad Leaders and the Warrant Officer assigned to us. At 24 years old at that time, while I had 7 years of experience by then, I realized that I still had much to learn from those who had spent 10, 12, 15, and 22 years of service - and that my leadership experience would only be enhanced through their education and training and shared wisdom. At the end of the day, I was the Lieutenant / Platoon Leader - which meant I was responsible for ensuring the platoon was well resourced to accomplish our mission and that we received all the necessary information to proceed in the right direction the command needed us to achieve mission success. At the same time, I was the final stop for any ass-chewings that rolled downhill... if the Company Commander, Battalion Commander, or Brigade Commander - and in one instance the Corps Commander... the buck stopped with me and I shielded the Platoon Sergeant and my others NCOs and the Warrant. Sometimes those chewings were nothing more than to see how I would react... I didn't know that then. As for the Corps Commander - he had the wrong platoon - but I was smart enough to just roll with the punches, and at the same time play the role of a dumb - new Lieutenant - which in turn minimized the impact and gained a pat on the shoulder and chin-up from the 3 star along with a coin. The Lieutenant who deserved that chewing out owed me big time!

Lastly, I stayed out of the way when First Sergeant, the Command Sergeant Major at Battalion and Brigade level came down to tune up the NCOs - as long as it was being applied equally across other platoons. I figured this was how NCOs learn to become First Sergeants and Command Sergeants Major. However, there was one time on my very first day as a platoon leader that the Battalion CSM had come down to our unit arms room in the basement and decided to have a lights out tune up party with the NCOs and platoon sergeant... the CSM figured I was a new NCO (line sergeant without having met me) - but he recognized me as a new face... we didn't have on BDU tops (so no rank or name) - the CSM in his loving self came over and said who are you "MFer" and gave me the knuckled chest greeting as I didn't speak loud enough - along with a few more three and four letter words of endearment. Truth be told, I was still in the NCO mindset that I had forgotten at that moment I was a Lieutenant and I was locked up at parade rest (trained to fear the presence of any CSM)... this one was definitely a force to be reckoned with. The platoon sergeant spoke up after a few minutes of me being thrashed and interrupted the CSM to inform him I was the new Lieutenant! The CSM stopped the thrashing, turned on all the lights, and asked: "LT, why the F didn't you tell me you were the new LT?" I said because when you entered the room I forgot about being a Lieutenant and went back into Sergeant mode. The CSM had been in for nearly 30 years (my father's age) - and from that moment on I had his respect and there wasn't anything me or my Platoon could not get from the Battalion. This wasn't gained from a position of exploitation because of this incident (that CSM could have cared less, and I was more professional than that)... in-fact he came around quite often for thrashing sessions with us - and I equally participated in these extra workouts and mule-kick sessions! At the same time, when missions came down and a team was needed - the CSM always gave us the missions because he trusted us which meant the Colonel trusted us and that influence carried through the Company Commander.

Long stories - I know, but for any Cadet or young NCO or new Lieutenant reading this, it is meant to convey that Cadets and newly commissioned Lieutenants have a learning curve, and they should be coachable and have NCOs who are willing to coach them. The objective is to mold a leader who will not crumble and will stand up for his or her platoon - even if they are about to be crucified by senior-level officers - or a ruthless CSM with plenty of battle scars. In time, that Lieutenant may one day become a General - and may have to lead thousands of troops and stand up to politicians or bureaucratic leaders from other agencies attempting to impose their will on our Army.

Response by SGT Willie Norwood made Nov 27 at 2018 2:04 PM

SGT Willie Norwood — Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:04:04 -0500

They say that cadets out rank NCOs but I always looked at them as interns looking for experience so I usually paid no attention to them when they tried to pull rank. Now when I really felt like having fun, I would do exactly what the cadet wanted so when things went wrong I would blame it on them. Usually when I dealt with cadets they may have had more authority but when it came to knowledge, the NCOs led the way.

Response by LTC Ronald Stephens made Nov 27 at 2018 10:11 PM

LTC Ronald Stephens — Tue, 27 Nov 2018 22:11:28 -0500

Technically yes they do; BUT, (there's always a but) if the cadet has the sense that God gave a goat he won't attempt to exert that rank, especially with an SFC, MSG or a SGM. who may have more time in the chow line than the cadet has in uniform. I knew a CFB who did just that when we were training WP cadets to be artillerymen during their summer training at Ft Sill back in 1969. A cadet was critical of how a howitzer COS laid in his 105mm. The COS kept his peace but the CFB without even raising his voice or the use of vernacular told that cadet that he barely knew enough to know the muzzle band from the breech block and that he should refrain from showing his lack of judgement to those who know better. The cadet was about to respond when I stepped in and advised him to let it be and that I, as the safety officer for that piece, was under no such constraints as was the Chief of Firing Battery.

Response by SSG Aaron Gough made Nov 28 at 2018 7:47 AM

SSG Aaron Gough — Wed, 28 Nov 2018 07:47:10 -0500

As SGM Marquez stated, replying with a yes Sir or yes Ma'am is the best response. I have been around cadets that have been put in my units within the National Guard since I first got in almost 10 years ago. Some were the I know everything type because they were college students and others have been really cool. Remember that they are taught by officers and mentored by NCO's. When it gets turned around is when they are going in the wrong direction.

Response by CPO Chris Kellar made Nov 28 at 2018 10:12 AM

CPO Chris Kellar — Wed, 28 Nov 2018 10:12:57 -0500

Cadets are not commissioned (yet), as a Chief Petty Officer, it would have made my day...

Response by PO2 Brian Gee made Nov 28 at 2018 11:54 AM

PO2 Brian Gee — Wed, 28 Nov 2018 11:54:51 -0500

During a three-day weekend I drove to my parents house on the west coast of Florida. There was a small hurricane in the gulf. I called the office letting the Lt. know I was safe.

He said the ship was probably going to sea. I told the Lt. that we were repair crew, not ships crew. He said I had to come back. I told him that there was a hurricane between him and me. I also said I will make my decision if it was safe to drive back after the next position report at noon the next day.

I later learned the master chief in the office basically ripped this Lt. a new ***hole! A Master Chief can do that.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2018 11:59 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 28 Nov 2018 11:59:42 -0500

The proper greeting an NCO should render to a cadet is "thank you for your service" and ask them if they can buy you something with their military discount.

Response by MSG Robert Greco made Nov 29 at 2018 9:50 PM

MSG Robert Greco — Thu, 29 Nov 2018 21:50:07 -0500

Unless that Cadet has his/her Federal Recondition Officer Orders, then no, the Cadet does not. Because, they are basically a "delayed entry" into the Military and do not out rank anyone in the Military. They are "given" respect of a 2LT but, are not a commissioned Officer, do not outrank an E1.

Some will say I'm wrong, I'm sure. So, for those who say I am wrong. Show me the pay scale/grade for a cadet with DFAS.

Response by George Oldroyd made Dec 1 at 2018 7:41 PM

George Oldroyd — Sat, 01 Dec 2018 19:41:59 -0500

Here's an egghead civilian answer: according to sociology there are four kinds of authority:
-Traditional: Man's obedience to God, a child's obedience to his parents, and a limited few other examples.
-Rational/Legal: Position power. My rank is higher than yours, you follow directions from the policeman who pulls you over does so because you understand he has this job for legal reasons, etc.
-Expertise: People follow you because you know what you're doing and they recognize the value of responding to that expertise.
-Charisma: People follow you because they like you and want to be liked by you, or at least have your approval.

Any leader who relies solely on Position power is doomed. You need to develop expertise and wield charisma, and if you look at any organization, you will see that most of the time, the best leaders have charisma and expertise to lean on and don't require office in order to lead others.

Cadets rarely have more than office, and that's why no one follows their lead except lower-ranking cadets. Once they learn a thing or two, usually from NCO's, and show some confidence and personality, they will start to deserve to be followed.

It's not a military explanation, but it's how I explain it to my Sea Scouts. (I was the Skipper at the Coast Guard Academy and worked with their Cadet Scoutmaster Council. Usually no one but a daisy fresh Cadet 4/c is going to play that game with a noncom. If you don't learn quick at any academy, you don't make it.)

Response by PO1 Michael Brouty made Dec 2 at 2018 5:41 PM

PO1 Michael Brouty — Sun, 02 Dec 2018 17:41:24 -0500

They don't "outrank" dirt...They are recruits.

Response by MSG Mark Stinson made Dec 6 at 2018 1:14 AM

MSG Mark Stinson — Thu, 06 Dec 2018 01:14:09 -0500

My dad told me a story that would explain his take on brand new 2LT’s. In his last assignment he was the Signal Bde SGM (the rank of CSM hadn’t been established as yet) the Colonel called my dad into his office and introduced him the a recent West Point Grad 2LT and asked my dad to show him around. Dad protested and said something to the effect of, I really don’t have the time to nurse mate a new 2LT. Then the Colonel said please. My dad broke and said OK, and then he turned to the new 2LT and said, “i’m Calling you Mister until you’ve been in the Army for six months, you have to earn my respect.” The 2LT looked at the Colonel for support to which the Colonel said, “you heard my SGM, Mister, carry on.”
When I was in the Special Forces Training Group 1968, (now called the Q Course) I was on a detail sweeping the loading dock behind the offices. A 1LT ran up the steps shouting, “WHO’S F&%$ING RED VW IS PARKED IN MY PARKING SPOT WITH MY NAME!” The SSG in charge of the detail said, “Sir, that’s the CSM’s car, I’ll tell him to move his car out of your parking slot.” The LT responded, “Uh no, don’t bother CSM Childress I’ll just park across the street.”
Two examples. By the time an NCO makes it to E-9 he’s been through some shit. My dad served as a SO in Detachment 101, OSS in the CBI. And CSM Childress earned his CIB in Korea and during one battle was only one of two soldiers left in the platoon. Also remember, like my dad enlisting in the Army in 1936. All of his Company Officers made a lot of rank in WWII. He told me of two that were in the Pentagon one as a 2 Star and the other a 3 Star and he had their direct phone numbers. In my case my 18A of A-401 5th Special Forces Group was Captain Mike Canavan. We spoke over the phone while he commanded JSOC as a Major General and he told me that if anybody and I mean anybody call me; if I can’t help you certainly General Shelton can. (At the time the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and he wore a long tab). I placed Lt General Canavan’s photoi above my desk. All of you young brand new 2LT’s remember what I’ve written, the SGM’s and the CSM’s are walking Gods and didn’t get to that level just on looks. I inserted a photo of my dad and just look at his face; would you be comfortable chewing him out. The other photo shows the team he was on, Team Antelope, dad is in the back row far left. He jumped into China on three missions, two DA (direct action to interdict supply lines and blow bridges of the Japanese Army in China and one SR (Special Recon) jumped in to pinpoint the Japanese Army ravaging China, several teams were inserted for this mission. Dad wore 3 stars on his jump wings, each insertion counted as a combat jump.
Sorry, I do have one more example. I showed up at the Ft Sam Houston photoshop for a DA Photo. There was a new 2LT already in his uniform with his two ribbons. One other NCO and I arrived and put on our uniforms. The other E-7 was a Nammer like myself having served with the 101st Airborne and I finished getting dressed. When the 101st NCO made eye contact with me we both smiled and nodded. He had six rows and with my 7 rows to include a BS w/V plus all the other stuff, Special Forces Tab Master Blaster Wings, CIB, SF Combat Patch and 9 service stripes we sat down. The photographer came out and asked ‘NEXT’ and we looked at the 2LT to go ahead and said, “no you guys go ahead you’ve earned the right.” That’s a 2LT that’s going to go far in the Army.

Response by CWO2 Shelby DuBois made Dec 7 at 2018 9:24 AM

CWO2 Shelby DuBois — Fri, 07 Dec 2018 09:24:22 -0500

Yeah, it's fun to have that power for a little while. It's a reminder that to us that they still have a lot of growing up to do. With time they will understand that rank is given, respect is earned.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Dec 7 at 2018 9:25 AM

SSG Trevor S. — Fri, 07 Dec 2018 09:25:56 -0500

Check out AR 600-20

Response by 1SG Donald Elmore made Dec 8 at 2018 2:34 PM

1SG Donald Elmore — Sat, 08 Dec 2018 14:34:33 -0500

As an SP5 E-5 in the regular Army pulling CQ I royally chewed out a Cadet for mashing his cigarette butt with his shoe on the hall floor. He cleaned it up right away and left. I did not get into any trouble over that.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2018 1:02 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Dec 2018 13:02:51 -0500

Cadets have no rank, they are just a student in college until they graduate and commission

Response by MAJ John Douglas made Dec 11 at 2018 1:16 PM

MAJ John Douglas — Tue, 11 Dec 2018 13:16:43 -0500

During my years in the Army, cadets were considered 3rd Lieutenants, sort of in a position where they might tell some folks what to do but not too advisable since everyone knew they knew little or nothing unless they were prior enlisted.

Response by Alan Smith made Dec 12 at 2018 10:46 PM

Alan Smith — Wed, 12 Dec 2018 22:46:11 -0500

Firstie cadet father... Technically yes, practically no.

https://mwi.usma.edu/yes-sergeant-actually-west-point-cadet-outrank/

Yes, Sergeant, Actually That West Point Cadet Does Outrank You - Modern War Institute

Scott Faith argues that contrary to popular belief West Point and ROTC cadets outrank NCO's according to Army Command Policy.

Response by SFC William Sutherland III made Dec 13 at 2018 4:23 PM

SFC William Sutherland III — Thu, 13 Dec 2018 16:23:22 -0500

How is this for clarity; All USMA {West Point } Army Cadets *(Army and Navy - USNA), or any ROTC cadets as well, are Cadets until they graduate become Officers; that usually happens after graduation and take the Oath and then pin on their 2nd LT Rank. Until then they are like basic trainees; or “Wanna Be’s! I’ve seen many Cadets, literally fall on their ass because they assumed that they have rank. The only rank most have are “Cows, Firsties, etc.,

Response by SFC Vernon McNabb made Dec 13 at 2018 6:03 PM

SFC Vernon McNabb — Thu, 13 Dec 2018 18:03:28 -0500

Nope! Cadets are trainees. Cadets and candidates will never outrank a corporal.

Response by MSG Johnathan Mathes made Dec 15 at 2018 9:41 AM

MSG Johnathan Mathes — Sat, 15 Dec 2018 09:41:03 -0500

In my opinion... there really isn’t a difference between them and second lts ... treat them with respect ... but NCOS your job is to train teach coach and mentor ... not to worry about a rank ... if they refuse to learn.. let them go ... they won’t be there very long

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2018 12:32 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Dec 2018 12:32:55 -0500

Cadets--by regulation--do actually outrank NCOs. However, as cadets are training to be commissioned officers, the idea that a cadet would ever try to "pull rank" on an NCO (who are the primary trainers in the military) would be ill-advised, as that cadet would surely have several other senior personnel correcting him/her for it. That being said, I would not get into an argument with a cadet over it either, especially over small issues where it seems like they are trying to over exert their perceived authority.

Response by LTC James McElreath made Dec 16 at 2018 1:53 AM

LTC James McElreath — Sun, 16 Dec 2018 01:53:38 -0500

SPC Robert O,
Have you ever taken a look at pay charts, rank charts? I pray tell have never seen the cadet rank anywhere on them. They are not in any position of authority. When a cadet swears in and signs the payroll they are paid an E-5 salary. The service academy's are paid in the same manner. A prior service cadet and non prior service cadet are like two different animals. The non prior service cadet thinks they have all this power because they are going to be an officer and think they instantly get the power of the 2LT. I have seen first hand how much power a cadet and a 2LT has over a CSM & SGM, both instances went really bad for both the LT and cadet. It is not wise to try and mistreat the senior NCO ranks. The Prior service generally have ran across cadets while in the Army, generally they are more low key and are very aware how to play the game.
But to simply answer your question no they have no authority. The cadet much like a 2LT better learn pretty quick how to treat people or will have a very short career in the Army.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 16 at 2018 3:09 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:09:55 -0500

Cadets do not outrank NCOs! They have not earned their commission yet.

Response by MSgt David Webb made Dec 16 at 2018 3:18 PM

MSgt David Webb — Sun, 16 Dec 2018 15:18:14 -0500

My response to cadets that thought they outranked me was typically similar to "OK, kiddo, come talk to me when you graduate and actually receive a rank. Until then, get the fuck out of my way!". I would then continue leading my troops the way I saw fit. Never once did a real officer intervene.

Response by PO2 Steven Michaeli made Dec 16 at 2018 5:40 PM

PO2 Steven Michaeli — Sun, 16 Dec 2018 17:40:51 -0500

I was once waiting for transportation in Ontario California. I was in USMC Service Alphas with my HM rate on the left sleeve. A Marine Capt offered me a lift but we had to wait for his other pax. A few minutes later arrived seven Annapolis, white wearing cadets. The captain advised the ranking cadet to get his people in the minivan. The cadet started pointing everyone to their assigned seats; I was sitting on the floor by the rear hatch when the captain exploded putting me shotgun explaining to the cadets that the dog crap he had stepped in earlier that day outranked cadets so a Corpsman must outrank all of them. He then ordered me to slide my seat all the way to the rear. It was a comfy ride

Response by SFC Ssg Sabin made Dec 16 at 2018 8:13 PM

SFC Ssg Sabin — Sun, 16 Dec 2018 20:13:42 -0500

Hell No! They are college students and until they receive their commission they should be treated like any other civilian!

Response by SGT Mike Moschkin made Dec 16 at 2018 8:53 PM

SGT Mike Moschkin — Sun, 16 Dec 2018 20:53:14 -0500

This story isn't about a cadet but I did witness my platoon sergeant and platoon leader go at it our first month in Vietnam after a battle. Both had come over on the boat with us however the platoon sergeant was a Korean War combat vet. the platoon leader a West Pointer. I heard the I am the platoon leader of this platoon and the platoon sergeant reply sir while you were in diapers I was in combat ! I don't remember didn't know how that all came about but that argument stuck in my mind ! LOL

Response by MSG David Lambert made Dec 16 at 2018 10:21 PM

MSG David Lambert — Sun, 16 Dec 2018 22:21:55 -0500

Yes, they are above warrant officers and below commissioned officers

Response by PO1 Kevin Dougherty made Dec 16 at 2018 11:35 PM

PO1 Kevin Dougherty — Sun, 16 Dec 2018 23:35:05 -0500

MY last duty assignment I was LPO for Electronics. Every few months the junior officers would rotate departments to get experience in the different areas. In most cases, and always with ensigns, the CO would call us both into his day room and instruct them that they were there to learn, they were not to tell me what to do, but ask me what they should be doing. Butterbars being butterbars, that rarely happened, but a quick word to the Ops officer was always enough to straighten things out if it got too bad. There was only one I had to cast to the sharks ... not sure he ever made JG even.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Dec 17 at 2018 11:21 AM

GySgt Kenneth Pepper — Mon, 17 Dec 2018 11:21:16 -0500

In what situation would this matter? If the cadet is assigned to your unit for training purposes, he is not only a cadet, he/she is a student. If the NCOs are training the cadet, he needs to follow their guidance.
Arguing about whether or not a cadet "outranks" anyone is fruitless and only builds contempt between the commissioned and non-commissioned leaders.
It is silly and not worthy of further discussion.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 17 at 2018 3:44 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Dec 2018 15:44:35 -0500

As SGM Marquez stated, and provided references for, technically an academy or senior contracted cadet does outrank enlisted soldiers. However, in practice (I say this as a prior NCO and current cadet) this isn’t the case. Cadets are in a training status and NCOs are the Army’s principle trainers. In my 7 years of experience (as a junior soldier, NCO and cadet), personally seen a cadet attempt to “pull rank” on anybody. If anything, I’ve seen cadets be extremely considerate and somewhat “self conscious” about their lack of knowledge/experience.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 17 at 2018 6:49 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Dec 2018 18:49:22 -0500

Fuck no. They have not earned their commission, placed into a warrant spot, or gone through basic/ait. I was a cadet, and made it clear to those around me that unless you are told "hey, you're the acting LT" the no. The dot carries no rank, nor authority inside an actual army unit. They can shadow, make reccomendations, but cannot give orders. If i had a ca-dot try and tell my guys what to do without my go ahead, there would be a world of misery brought onto him.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 17 at 2018 11:24 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Dec 2018 23:24:57 -0500

No, cadets don't out rank anyone. They are not actually commissioned until they graduate and are officially commissioned. Having been an NCO and later an officer, I was given some good advice by my TAC officer. He said "when the SGM tells you to get off the grass he will salute you but, get off of the F-ing grass."

Response by Sgt Anthony Leverington made Dec 18 at 2018 11:10 AM

Sgt Anthony Leverington — Tue, 18 Dec 2018 11:10:35 -0500

What sort of cadets are we taking about here. ROTC? Military Academy?
It was always my understanding that, if you weren't in the actual military, you didn't out rank diddly squat. I can't speak for college level cadets but in high school ROTC, we had the Marine Silent Drill Team come to our school for a demonstration and every single one of us, regardless of rank, showed the utmost respect to even their lowest ranking team member.

Response by PFC Alan Moore made Dec 18 at 2018 11:19 AM

PFC Alan Moore — Tue, 18 Dec 2018 11:19:57 -0500

In my opinion, officers that don't respect NCO's aren't very good officers.

Response by CPT Kurk Harris made Dec 18 at 2018 12:37 PM

CPT Kurk Harris — Tue, 18 Dec 2018 12:37:54 -0500

Definition of commission
1a : a formal written warrant granting the power to perform various acts or duties
b : a certificate conferring military rank and authority also : the rank and authority so conferred received a lieutenant's commission in the army
2 : an authorization or command to act in a prescribed manner or to perform prescribed acts : charge a commission to serve as notary public
3a : authority to act for, in behalf of, or in place of another … had summoned all the clans which acknowledged his commission …— T. B. Macaulay

So, no. Cadets have not yet been commissioned, and therefore have not been conferred rank OR authority. It is customary, when a cadet is given a temporary leadership role for their professional leadership development, for them to be treated as if they have authority, and in a sense the have the authority delegated by the officer who has placed them in the role, but they hold no rank that is senior to enlisted members. In function NCOs will humor them, and let them make decisions, but that only because the NCOs understand that they need to develop some leadership skills before being commissioned and getting legal authority.

Response by SSgt William Blanshan made Dec 18 at 2018 5:47 PM

SSgt William Blanshan — Tue, 18 Dec 2018 17:47:19 -0500

Cadets are like recruits. They don't outrank the dirt.

Response by Sgt Thomas King made Dec 18 at 2018 10:01 PM

Sgt Thomas King — Tue, 18 Dec 2018 22:01:20 -0500

My unit was 2862 GEEIA

Response by Sgt Stonewall Jackson III made Dec 19 at 2018 10:21 AM

Sgt Stonewall Jackson III — Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:21:29 -0500

A Cadet is NOT a Serving member of the Department of Defense, and outranks No One. He/She/It is a Civilian.

Response by CPT Wallace Ward made Dec 19 at 2018 5:29 PM

CPT Wallace Ward — Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:29:46 -0500

Why do these stupid inane topics always come up??

Response by SGM Andre Turner made Dec 20 at 2018 10:13 AM

SGM Andre Turner — Thu, 20 Dec 2018 10:13:14 -0500

Nope sorry they do not , because they have not enlisted yet they are still students.

Response by SGM Andre Turner made Dec 20 at 2018 10:14 AM

SGM Andre Turner — Thu, 20 Dec 2018 10:14:46 -0500

Nope hey are students , they have not enlisted in the service yet hell no. that is from the sergeant Major me!

Response by Cpl Michael Milstead made Dec 21 at 2018 9:30 PM

Cpl Michael Milstead — Fri, 21 Dec 2018 21:30:48 -0500

As a Corporal, my new lieutenants learned. I take care of day to day. Let me know when it changes. We will be ready, enjoy your meetings. NCO IS TOUGH, WE KNOW.

Response by SSgt Russell Stevens made Dec 22 at 2018 2:21 AM

SSgt Russell Stevens — Sat, 22 Dec 2018 02:21:00 -0500

The cadets I have had to meet are the ones who wanted to be saluted in a combat zone. Sadly none of them got killed but I made it a point to render the salute which should have pointed them out to any sniper in the area.

Response by CW5 Thomas McLaughlin made Dec 22 at 2018 3:57 PM

CW5 Thomas McLaughlin — Sat, 22 Dec 2018 15:57:56 -0500

As Cadets, the rank below an E-1. However during their First Class Summer - the one between their "junior" and "senior" years - they are sent to active Army units to play "real" soldier. They are given a temporary rank of 3LT (third lieutenant) to put them in the line-of-command for training purposes - so that any directions they give are technically direct orders. In the hierarchy, they fall above NCO's and below Warrants . They are given real positions within the staff, but always have a "minder" with them, in my direct experience usually a 1LT or CW2 whose MOS is in the area they have been assigned (i.e. an Intel-type if they are in the S-2). They seldom, if ever, have an opportunity to "order" anyone or anything, but have to have to have the "rank" in active training "just-in-case."

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2018 8:56 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Dec 2018 20:56:22 -0500

We have a cadet who was an e4 a couple months ago. Well, now she gets to go to CUBS and try and give input on our training...Worthless.

Response by MAJ Thomas Person made Dec 22 at 2018 9:11 PM

MAJ Thomas Person — Sat, 22 Dec 2018 21:11:47 -0500

Oh yea. The BLUF is: if all the leadership has been incapacitated do they get to step up. ROTC seniors are about the same I believe. Never had trouble with one as most gravitated to the NONCOMS IOT get everything they could. In our rifle company they were made assistant platoon leaders. Took them to the O'Club on Friday night before W. (that's before Wickham). He destroyed any and I mean cohesion and camaraderie in the Officer corps. Are there O'clubs anymore? Anyway...they usually are sponges. RLTW!

Response by MSgt Joseph Holness made Dec 23 at 2018 12:24 PM

MSgt Joseph Holness — Sun, 23 Dec 2018 12:24:19 -0500

Greetings...........
I have dealt with this issue before during my US Army Years prior to my switching over to the USAF. I was a 19E & 19K and periodically we would "entertain" West Point and ROTC Cadets in their Junior & Senior Semesters prior to their graduation / official commissioning. Most would look-learn & listen ie stay out of the way, but others thought they were Gen. Patton and would order the Enlisted & NCOs around like they were a bunch of raw recruit butlers or just out of Basic. Because of this, these "cadets" were highly resented and viewed as spoiled brat prima-donnas. Personally I feel that NO CADET be they ROTC or from the Academies has the right to order anybody around, especially well-trained and experienced Military Personnel who have already paid-their-dues so to speak and officially proven themselves. Cadets and ROTC'rs don't deserve to be saluted or allowed to give orders until they Officially Graduate and have been given their commissions.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2018 2:25 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Dec 2018 14:25:39 -0500

If your officer is worth his/her own spit, they'll put a know-it-all cadet in check immediatly. At one point in time I was an NCO running around 1st Cav and we'd get west point cadets every summer, and most of them were clueless and hungry to spread their knowledge around. Later in life I would be a cadet, but not the variety to compare knowledge bases, and then much later as a Cpt I would have cadets running around. Lucky for me they were all respectful for the most part.
My advice is politely remind the cadet that they know a great deal about nothing, and if the issue is pushed and it's becoming a distraction have the PSG address it privately with your officer, and he/she should squash it. Should.

Response by CW3 Gary Jones made Dec 23 at 2018 2:31 PM

CW3 Gary Jones — Sun, 23 Dec 2018 14:31:39 -0500

There goes "There is no such thing as a STUPID question " LOL Merry Xmas to all CW3 GMJ

Response by Cpl Greg Rock made Dec 23 at 2018 6:10 PM

Cpl Greg Rock — Sun, 23 Dec 2018 18:10:46 -0500

Do cadets outrank NCOs? Yes, strictly speaking.

Would a cadet actually trying to pull said rank on an active-duty NCO in the real world be pretty much the same thing as completely taking leave of their senses and/or succumbing to an overwhelming subconscious death wish? Yes, without question.

No man ever attains a rank/pay grade so high up in the enlisted rank structure that they aren't obliged to render all the basic military courtesies afforded the most junior officer: address them as "sir," render a salute, occasionally stand at attention when appropriate...all that stuff that makes being an officer fun.

A senior-ranking SNCO doesn't need to be reminded or told to do these things, because he acknowledges that by virtue of his rank and place in the overall command structure, one of his most important responsibilities is to set an example for the junior enlisted as to how a military professional conducts himself that is worth emulating. They must also avoid doing anything that undermines an officers authority in the eyes of those under his command; failing to show an officer a proper degree of deference is certainly one of those things.

That said: no cadet, or even a newly-minted "Butterbar" Lieutenant in his right mind should ever be foolhardy enough to try and lean on, push around, or bust the chops of, say, a Master Sergeant or Sergeant Major.

Real authority can come from a few different sources; one of the most sacred, esteemed. and respected sources would be what we in the Corps used to call (and prolly still do) "time in." There is absolutely *nothing* to be found in an officer commission or promotion warrant that carries more weight of authority or evokes more genuine respect than 25-30 years' experience and the wisdom that such a length of service bestows.

When I reported to 2nd Tank Bn/2nd MarDiv back in the summer or '88, the senior NCO was a fellow by the name of Master GySgt Sloane. The guy was a bona-fide, straight-up friggin' legend at 2nd Tanks; 30 years on since then, I and many of the guys of my Facebook "Friends" list who I served with still talk about him every now and then.

He'd been in the Corps so long that I think he may have been among the last of the so-called "Montford Point Marines;" during WW2 and Korea, Montford Point was where black recruits went for basic training in the still-segregated Marine Corps (and Sloane-- you guessed it-- is black) It was rumored at the time that he served under the Commandant back when he was a Lieutenant (which was Gen. Al Grey) and that they were friends.

Nobody-- and I mean *NOBODY*-- at 2nd Tanks would ever dare to sweat the guy; not the platoon commanders, not the company commanders, and so far as I know, not even the Battalion CO. He had the kind of juice within the Corps that only a tiny fraction of senior Marine SNCOs could claim.

My first encounter with "Top" Sloane was a battalion training exercise at Ft. Pickett, VA; it was my first "deployment," if you could call it that. Anyhow: the day before it kicked off, most of the Marines from 2nd Tanks assembled in a open field so that the Battalion CO and Top Sloane could a pep-talk.

Sloanes speech started off thus:

"Good afternoon Marines. As most of you know, I am Master GySgt Sloane. For those of you new Marines who recently joined the battalion, I am the "a**hole," the "motherf**ker," the "dumbass ni**er" you read about on the walls when you take a piss in the tank park head. So now ya know.

Now then: for all you Lieutenants out here who think you know more than me, I recommend you take your asses over there [points to the distant horizon] and stay on the other side of that mountain until it comes time to pack up our s**t and go home."

A true legend indeed.

Response by Cpl Johnathan Yother made Dec 23 at 2018 6:36 PM

Cpl Johnathan Yother — Sun, 23 Dec 2018 18:36:41 -0500

When I was stationed at Base Motors at LeJune, I once had to drive a load of cadets around. I asked specifically how to address them, and was told by their Commander to call them shitheads or anything else I wanted because they were not shit, yet. They may ATTAIN rank after their schooling is done, but until then they are just "boots", and outrank no one.

Response by Lt Col John Culley made Dec 25 at 2018 7:13 PM

Lt Col John Culley — Tue, 25 Dec 2018 19:13:29 -0500

Cadets that insist that they outrank non-commissioned officers do all right until they find themselves in a combat situation where they have an unusually low life expectancy because they too often choose to ignore the advice of their combat veteran non-commissioned officers.

Response by Sgt Charles Welling made Dec 26 at 2018 12:17 PM

Sgt Charles Welling — Wed, 26 Dec 2018 12:17:16 -0500

Why is that even a question? Cadets are students, they are not commissioned yet, get real.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 26 at 2018 3:21 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 26 Dec 2018 15:21:26 -0500

An officer from 2Lt all the way to 5 Star General, is commissioned by the President of the United States, they all have the same authority, what changes are the different levels of responsibility. A 2LT has the authority to conduct the death penalty or give you the order to take off your mask in a Chemical environment to see if the least essential soldier dies for the sake of the mission, a cadet does not have that authority. Needless to say, a 2Lt may or may not know the power and authority he/she has. But we all know Knowledge is power, and in the Battlefield knowledge is Survivability. With that being said, have you ever seen a cadet being deployed? I bet 26 years worth of paycheck none of you have ever seen a cadet in combat. A cadet is nothing more than an apprentice who has not been appointed by the Commander in Chief yet. Therefore a cadet does not outrank not even an E-1 because he has resigned his E rank however they do get E-5 reserve pay. Therefore my knowledge and posture will change his way of thinking and the "know it all" behavior of a cadet or even 2LT. Now with a 2LT, I will let him know that he is in charge. However, I will let him do the "trial and error" experiment without letting him hurt himself.

Response by MSgt Joseph Holness made Dec 26 at 2018 6:00 PM

MSgt Joseph Holness — Wed, 26 Dec 2018 18:00:44 -0500

Remind them that they haven't officially graduated or received their commissions yet, plus most of these cadets have never even went through Basic Training / Officially Served in the US Armed Forces, which speaks volumes about these "future leaders of men" in and of itself.

Response by Maj Tom Ringlein made Dec 26 at 2018 10:35 PM

Maj Tom Ringlein — Wed, 26 Dec 2018 22:35:03 -0500

Air Force ROTC cadets are actually card-carrying reserve E3's while still cadets. They don't get officer rank until they commission. I'm a retired AF Major who graduated from and also instructed an AFROTC detachment.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2018 9:31 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Dec 2018 09:31:26 -0500

No...the dot the wear isnt even a rank in my book and was never educated on this as I was coming up through the ranks. Besides how could they out rank anyone if they haven't commissioned yet. Bogus

Response by GySgt Leo Rochon RETIRED made Dec 27 at 2018 12:19 PM

GySgt Leo Rochon RETIRED — Thu, 27 Dec 2018 12:19:12 -0500

I suppose this is a question only in the Army. For a Marine, until you earn the title, and actually rate a salute, they better not come at an NCO sideways, or risk getting their feelings hurt. The title MARINE means something, cadet.."not so much.

Response by Sgt Don Whiteley made Dec 28 at 2018 10:32 AM

Sgt Don Whiteley — Fri, 28 Dec 2018 10:32:51 -0500

Cadets receive their commission on graduation, so while attending a service academy or ROTC program, they shouldn't rate any more than your local garbage collector, and have no right to expect salutes or give enlisted personnel orders or even suggestions. Let them take it to your CO and see how fast he/she gets their butt chewed. Be courteous, but leave no doubt in their minds that they are out of line.

Response by Jerry Rivas made Dec 28 at 2018 5:14 PM

Jerry Rivas — Fri, 28 Dec 2018 17:14:08 -0500

A cadet is nothing more than a trainee....IMHO. They should not be flat out disrespected, But they occasionally need a gentle reminder of where they stand in the pecking order......The bottom

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2018 10:40 AM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Dec 2018 10:40:55 -0500

Kind of... I've seen cadets try to bang nonrates (e-3 and below in the Coast Guard) and I've seen them get kicked out for shoplifting tand then throw a fit about it and trash my mess deck. There is some respect there but cadets need to understand they are not a proven factor and in all reality are not even in yet so to some degree they are lower ranking than our e-2s but they have the accountability of the o-1s they wanna be.

Response by COL Robert Dey made Dec 30 at 2018 4:45 PM

COL Robert Dey — Sun, 30 Dec 2018 16:45:20 -0500

The word “outrank” is an invitation to misunderstanding. Cadets are learning to be officers, and one of their most valuable opportunities to learn is by interning with active units, being exposed to real troopers and missions. Their “rank” is not about privilege or who ranks who, rather it is a chance to play the role of a junior officer and learn how to trust and build effective relationships with soldiers who may be much more experienced than their leader. This is no different than the the transition that is experienced by a newly assigned 2/Lt as he or she learns to lead and build a team with his NCOs and troopers. While some junior officers may think they expected to know more than the troops, I think most are aware the are in a learning status and do not fail to respect the counsel of the experienced NCOs and all ranks. If you understand that you can help teach these young leaders how to be an officer who can forge a winning team, then you will not waste energy by dwelling on “who ranks who”. Instead you can feel good about helping build a better Army from the bottom up.

Response by TSgt James Lacey made Dec 31 at 2018 12:11 PM

TSgt James Lacey — Mon, 31 Dec 2018 12:11:57 -0500

I found this not to be the case as often with Air Force cadets as they were often assigned to work under us.

Response by 1SG Michael Farrell made Dec 31 at 2018 3:22 PM

1SG Michael Farrell — Mon, 31 Dec 2018 15:22:40 -0500

They do. So does every ensign, second lieutenant, coronet, midshipman and whatever sort of transitional rank you want to come up with. So what? The fact is that they're there to learn from you, and one of the things that happens is that the best aren't so scared of their own insecurities that they make fools of themselves. Remember, unless earned, Sir is just a fore-letter word that got short-changed. The SAS has a tradition of calling all officers "Digby" until they earn the coveted title "Boss." And, as one old Colonel in the 9th Infantry Division would put it, "How the fuck does worrying about that kill more Communists?"

Response by Sgt Charles Malcom made Dec 31 at 2018 8:51 PM

Sgt Charles Malcom — Mon, 31 Dec 2018 20:51:54 -0500

Is this now becoming a problem? I put 14-plus in the Marine Corps and never encountered a cadet. Why would a cadet, ROTC, West Point, Naval Academy, Coast Guard Academy, who are not actually in the military during their four years of school, out rank any NCO? With my temperament I'm glad I never encountered one of those breeds.

Response by SFC Jeff Stevenson made Jan 1 at 2019 12:39 AM

SFC Jeff Stevenson — Tue, 01 Jan 2019 00:39:35 -0500

Are cadets commissioned? Have they learned a thing and your question is answered by their demanding that they out-rank an active duty member. They are students. The best approach is to speak to them as you do your children, as NCO's are there to teach and instruct. Without being condescending, explain you have a job to do, and maybe they can address the concern of "out-ranking" at another venture. Or to really enjoy, have them ask the 1SG or your Company Commander, while will explain the rank structure of active duty, and a college student.

Response by PFC Loren Allgood made Jan 1 at 2019 3:53 AM

PFC Loren Allgood — Tue, 01 Jan 2019 03:53:50 -0500

I don't understand how a cadet can out rank anybody really. Until a cadet graduates and earns his/her bars, he/she has no commission and therefore, (for all practical purposes), no rank. He or she is a student.

Response by GySgt Keith Backus made Jan 1 at 2019 11:38 AM

GySgt Keith Backus — Tue, 01 Jan 2019 11:38:44 -0500

No! I served as a DI at OCS, and that would not fly.

Response by Charlie Sutton made Jan 1 at 2019 3:55 PM

Charlie Sutton — Tue, 01 Jan 2019 15:55:06 -0500

I was a cadet (USAFA) but my dad, (a retired major, and a mustang) told me that my best friend would be my sergeant when I was in a unit, and I would be wise to treat them with respect and to use their wisdom.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2019 6:18 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Jan 2019 18:18:19 -0500

They are paid as E-5's and they act like E2's, In my opinion, they dont out rank anyone until they earn there commission, most wash out anyway.

Response by SSG Ken Gilder made Jan 1 at 2019 11:35 PM

SSG Ken Gilder — Tue, 01 Jan 2019 23:35:00 -0500

Many cadets and OCS grads are usually "book smart," but have the common sense of a turnip. They forget the adage "Be careful of the toes you step on today. They might be connected to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow."

However, most of them do have sense enough to follow one word of advice when it comes to annoying warrant officers, especially 3's, 4's, and 5's. "Don't." They will eat your lunch.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2019 11:44 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Jan 2019 11:44:14 -0500

No, but they will...kinda. Lol!

Response by MSG GregoryT Majewski made Jan 3 at 2019 1:25 PM

MSG GregoryT Majewski — Thu, 03 Jan 2019 13:25:56 -0500

Yes, seasoned military enlisted are there to teach these not yet officers. Enlisted sergeant's E-6 and above are there to TEACH these new would be Officers. I have over 20"s active service and have trained many fully commissioned officers the rules of how to treat the enlisted as well as train junior enlisted how they are to respond to newly commissioned officers. This usually does not a problem for enlisted who become officers in an advancement program.

Response by 1SG Jeffrey Mullett made Jan 3 at 2019 5:03 PM

1SG Jeffrey Mullett — Thu, 03 Jan 2019 17:03:58 -0500

The rank of a cadet is E5. Until they are commissioned they only outrank junior enlisted.
NCOs should accord cadets with respect, but they are NOT required to.
When I am faced with a cadet who has an inflated self-worth, I have been known to put them in their place. I have also straightened out more than one Second LT, O1E have a little more experience, so they are allotted .
The average 1LT should have a little better perspective when it comes to relating with their senior NCOs, and that, of course depends on the quality of that NCO.

Response by PV2 Glen Lewis made Jan 4 at 2019 1:21 PM

PV2 Glen Lewis — Fri, 04 Jan 2019 13:21:33 -0500

I think they think they and may even on paper out rank an NCO but in my opinion until they get their bars they shouldn't. NCOs are doing the job and cadets are training to.

Response by PO1 Steven Siepp made Jan 5 at 2019 2:16 AM

PO1 Steven Siepp — Sat, 05 Jan 2019 02:16:08 -0500

Not sure, I usually gave them a paint bucket and a brush and told them to paint my fan room or needle gun the rust off the bulkhead and then paint. but I was usually dealing with 1st or 2nd year cadets. always felt they should feel the pain they were going to be inflicting when commissioned.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 5 at 2019 12:03 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Jan 2019 12:03:55 -0500

By regulation, yes. In the real world, no good cadet or midshipman should be throwing their weight around like this.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Jan 7 at 2019 3:40 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Mon, 07 Jan 2019 15:40:27 -0500

Yes. AR600-20. Asked and answered multiple times on RP.

Response by PVT Raymond Lopez made Jan 9 at 2019 1:53 PM

PVT Raymond Lopez — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 13:53:23 -0500

Cadet out ranking enlisted men. Why of course they do we enlisted swine are too irresponsible to do anything. we just laugh a lot. Fair warning if you the phraase "Trust me sir the comp's books are all in order" be afraid be very afraid"!

Response by CW3 Gary Jones made Jan 9 at 2019 2:47 PM

CW3 Gary Jones — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 14:47:42 -0500

I agree with treating Cadets as all people with respect . There was A Cadet in my unit who years later became the Company Commander ,Later the Battalion commander and I hope he gets a star as he is a stand up guy who does not wear his rank on his shoulder .

Response by SFC Jeffrey Port made Jan 25 at 2019 2:25 PM

SFC Jeffrey Port — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 14:25:44 -0500

Hello, All the Cadets I worked with were paid same as E-5 rank, and I never let one of them attempt to think they outrank me!
SFC Port

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2019 7:43 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Feb 2019 07:43:17 -0500

Not all cadets are the same. Cadets at USMA, USCGA, USAFA, as well as USNA misdshipmen, are sworn members of US military services. Conversely, most ROTC cadets are civilians under contract to enter the military upon graduation; however, some ROTC cadets hold dual status from the reserves or National Guard. I also knew one USMA cadet, class of 1973 with an anomalous path, who had resigned his commission to accept his academy appointment. It was a rational decision since he wanted an Army career and understood that as Vietnam wound down, the first officers facing RIF would be those without college degrees. He PCS'd to West Point, resigned his commission on Reception Day and took the oath as a cadet. Incidentally, the oath taken by cadets more closely resembles the enlistment oath rather than that the oath sworn by officers. It's uncommon for a cadet to have earned a CIB, Bronze Star with V device and others, so his plebe year must have been interesting. Life after his graduation was even more so since promotion to 1LT was based on time in Active Federal Commissioned Service. He was almost immediately promoted to 1LT and his date of rank was recalculated to include his previous 1LT time. He was subsequently promoted at the next CPT's board. I believe that he was promoted to Captain before anyone whose cadet time overlapped with his. How nice it must be to outrank your Beast Barracks (Cadet Basic Training) squad lead who graduated 3 years before he did.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2019 1:36 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 15 Feb 2019 13:36:36 -0500

Title 10 Students (Cadets) are afforded the pay of E5 when on active duty for training. Academy Cadets are slightly different, they receive a stripend approved by Congress using a computational model. Per title 10, all cadets are now not afforded the level of responsibility and authority delegates to them by superior officers. When activated for combat, they revert to the rank of E5 and wear stripes (I did it in Desert Storm). I hope this answers your question.

Response by SPC Wayde Visser made Feb 22 at 2019 9:48 PM

SPC Wayde Visser — Fri, 22 Feb 2019 21:48:54 -0500

Hmmm. They had a rougher time in the 82nd. They were referred to as "Dot" when their attention was needed, for obvious reasons. At least in the infantry.

Response by SPC David Martin made Feb 23 at 2019 3:49 PM

SPC David Martin — Sat, 23 Feb 2019 15:49:05 -0500

UNGRADUATED PREP SCHOOL CADETS HAVE ZERO RANK.....Unless my understanding of when your Commission as an Officer COMMENCES...

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2019 8:00 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 23 Feb 2019 20:00:45 -0500

No they do not outrank them they are not officially in the military until they finish school. You show them respect like you would an officer but you don’t salute them. They get paid as an E-5 or the rank they held as enlisted if they were of a higher rank. The reason they don’t have any rank is because they are in training or shadowing and they have not finished their schooling to become a commissioned officer. Some military academy’s like west point make it seem like their 3rd and 4th year students have more power but that is only give for them at the school or they are empowered by another officer at a unit. I was in the ROTC and I use to hate seeing cadets go on power trips as if they actually had some power. Being a prior non commissioned officer I would fix this in a heartbeat. They would think since they were paid as an E-5 they had that power. They are there to learn and shadow the officers at the unit so they know what they will be doing in the future.

Response by CPT Keith Whitter made Feb 23 at 2019 10:32 PM

CPT Keith Whitter — Sat, 23 Feb 2019 22:32:14 -0500

Technically, I guess they hold the rank of 2LT as a cadidiate. In experience they have little to offer. The best lesson you can give them is real life experience. Most will disappoint you, but some will prove worthy. Be patient, try not to laugh out loud, and just do your best to keep them from causing more harm than they are worth. Maybe send them out on a mock patrol with your best men. They may not be willing to admit they were completely lost, but inside they will know. I remember being a brand new LT - but I was a Sgt prior to that. My first action was to ask the platoon sergeant if he had someone who could show me which end of the Bradley was the front. :-)

Response by LCDR Jerry Maurer made Feb 24 at 2019 10:00 AM

LCDR Jerry Maurer — Sun, 24 Feb 2019 10:00:28 -0500

I can't answer for the Army 'cause I was too junior to know anything then. But I went to Navy OCS and we got E-5 pay. Junior year Midshipmen on our submarine worked as division officers but didn't have any authority over enlisted. One of the Midshipmen just didn't get that and one day I found him duct taped to the bulkhead in the Torpedo Room; naked; covered in peanut butter. He never said who did it. :)

Response by Cpl Tyler Therrien made Feb 24 at 2019 12:14 PM

Cpl Tyler Therrien — Sun, 24 Feb 2019 12:14:11 -0500

Not only NO but HELL NO

Response by SFC Nelson L. Friday-González made Feb 24 at 2019 4:30 PM

SFC Nelson L. Friday-González — Sun, 24 Feb 2019 16:30:01 -0500

It depends on the individual Cadet, if they didn't have any leadership skills and or combat experience, I would see them as journeyman that I would have to guide.

Response by SPC Jackson Stevens made Feb 24 at 2019 4:48 PM

SPC Jackson Stevens — Sun, 24 Feb 2019 16:48:33 -0500

This is your opportunity to teach the young bucks how military ranks really work.

Cadets never hear of or from god.
O-1s and O-2s rarely hear of or from god.
O-3s occasionally hear of and from god.
O-4s hear of and from god.
O-5s communicate with God.
When Generals and Admirals talk with god they refer to them as CSM or Chief.

As an E-4, I was honored to spend about 10 straight hours with SMA Glen E. Morrell as he toured the 2nd Armored Division in Ft Hood TX. It was that day that I realized that this “enlisted man” spent as much time with the Commanding Generals as anyone. And CG worth his salt is NOT going to consider the words of the military Senior Enlistees.

Important: the sooner the new officers learn how the Enlisted and Officer ranks work together, the better the leadership skills of the new Officer will become.

Response by SPC Gary Welch made Feb 24 at 2019 9:39 PM

SPC Gary Welch — Sun, 24 Feb 2019 21:39:19 -0500

I showed them respect they were due but as a dismount squad leader I had one try to tell me that he knew more then I did let's just say it didn't end well for him

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2019 8:28 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 Feb 2019 08:28:30 -0500

By regulation, cadets come before NCOs in order of succession of command because they are the closest thing to officers and being in command has a lot to do with different aspects of military law. Other than that, their span of authority comes directly from the commander (NCOs have authority based on their rank alone, there's no UCMJ for disrespecting/disobeying a cadet). I've seen cadets get chewed out by my Company CO for going outside of what he directed them to do. He told the cadet "you're not an officer, you're not an NCO, stop doing whatever you want, you're here to do what I tell you." Pure gold.

Response by SSgt Dan Montague made Feb 25 at 2019 5:37 PM

SSgt Dan Montague — Mon, 25 Feb 2019 17:37:28 -0500

We had midshipmen come stay in our barracks. Most of us got one in our room. One specific one mouthed off to our "sr LCPL" about field day. Said he out ranked us all and he wasn't going to clean. There was a behind closed door meeting between the two. That midshipman had that deck looking new by morning.

Response by CW3 Don Malay made Feb 25 at 2019 9:18 PM

CW3 Don Malay — Mon, 25 Feb 2019 21:18:27 -0500

I had a Company Commander once who told me as a CW2 that I had to salute a cadet. I said to him that f@*&#r is trying to be a soldier, I, on the other hand, am one, as the other Platoon leaders and Platoon Sgt's bust out laughing.

Response by SSgt Joshua Sacasa made Feb 27 at 2019 7:47 AM

SSgt Joshua Sacasa — Wed, 27 Feb 2019 07:47:47 -0500

I don't the regs on this, but the few months I've ran into cadets during my sleeping hours (I worked night shift), they always had an actual Officer shadowing them. They didn't disturb our sleep and we in turn didn't **** with them. Had a few times where they'd camp by my window and make noise and other rucks, but I'd catch the CO's attention and he'd fix it. No drama here.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2019 4:07 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 Feb 2019 16:07:27 -0500

In July 2007 I attended Airborne school as a USMC Cpl. I had an Army CPT attending school with me and there was an issue with some cadets running their mouths to NCO’s about outranking them.

Needless to say the CPT pulled all of the cadets up to the front of the formation, chewed them out, and then proceeded to make them push. He then reiterated that they held no rank and were lower than any PVT and to never forget their place. Whether or not it was true, I thought it was funny and a great lesson to never get a big head and always be humble.

Response by CPL Philip La Farge made Feb 27 at 2019 5:07 PM

CPL Philip La Farge — Wed, 27 Feb 2019 17:07:12 -0500

In Vietnam we had second luietenant platoon leader. Out in the jungle, we were supposed to move from our position to another location, but to our amusement, the Luietanant led us back to where we started. Apparently, we just made a big circle.

Response by SGM Debra Bradshaw made Feb 28 at 2019 1:53 AM

SGM Debra Bradshaw — Thu, 28 Feb 2019 01:53:44 -0500

Only once.

Response by SMSgt Robert Runion made Feb 28 at 2019 6:56 AM

SMSgt Robert Runion — Thu, 28 Feb 2019 06:56:16 -0500

I served with a lot of young officer during my 30 - most were great people just trying to learn the ropes. Most of them finally figured that all NCO's weren't Sgt Bilko's and we developed a rapport knowing our places in the pecking order of the military. Respect works both ways and if either became arrogant from their experiences - well there was eventually a change of station and one or the other moved on.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2019 7:48 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 Mar 2019 07:48:07 -0500

In the guard we have both candidates (OCS E6) & Cadet (ROTC E5), Both hold a junior NCO pay grade. With every one some are good, some are bad, and generally just like a "bad NCO" which are just as numerous you use tact, respect the position as many are actually filling those positions not shadowing, and attempt to aid them in seeing things your way off line and not in front of your troops. As a E7 i have seen numerous cadets, some are awesome, some suck, some never commission, some go on to make general. In every case as with us NCOs a leader that doesn't listen to his men isn't a leader. If you try to work out your issues then use your commissioned officers in your chain, have examples, and make sure it isn't just he has a different way of tackling the situation. Unless lives are on the line every opportunity is a training one.

Response by SSG Larry R. Jones made Mar 2 at 2019 2:16 PM

SSG Larry R. Jones — Sat, 02 Mar 2019 14:16:30 -0500

Actually the answer is a big "NO" they are not yet commisioned officers. They are students that have a "BIG" ego trip. Now yes when a noncom or lower rank meets one, yes salute them cause it is a part of their training. But remember that big word "TRAINING" they are in your unit to learn. If you have a good 2nd Lt. or 1st Lt. They will instruct the cadet that you the noncom is their best inventory of information.
RLTW

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2019 5:44 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 Mar 2019 17:44:51 -0500

A cadet if contracted is only the rank of an E5 until they commission. You’ll know that right.

Response by 1SG L Magdangal made Mar 3 at 2019 7:13 AM

1SG L Magdangal — Sun, 03 Mar 2019 07:13:42 -0500

They have no military rank, so they are just that; cadets until the complete and graduate from their respective schools. They are more of an apprentice.

Response by MSgt David Webb made Mar 3 at 2019 4:29 PM

MSgt David Webb — Sun, 03 Mar 2019 16:29:56 -0500

Until they are officially issued a commissioned officer, NO! Unless they were prior enlisted before going to OCS, OTS, etc. then they absolutely DO NOT outrank someone who actually HOLDS A RANK, even an Airman Basic.

Response by PV2 Mark Walston made Mar 4 at 2019 4:30 AM

PV2 Mark Walston — Mon, 04 Mar 2019 04:30:59 -0500

No, they only outrank themselves.

Response by LTC Mathew Beckstead made Mar 14 at 2019 6:31 PM

LTC Mathew Beckstead — Thu, 14 Mar 2019 18:31:04 -0400

The short answer is yes, the longer answer is maybe. As a young enlisted Marine. We had some pasty college cadets come through our chow hall while they were doing thier two week summer training. When they pushed thier rank Superiority, we as full fedged Marines, I was a LCPL, did not take well to it and some of my peers were very disrespectful. When I became a ROTC Cadet, I was also in the Army National Guard. I had great NCOs that taught me. By the time I was a Senior MS4 Cadet I had had 6 years of military duty and 7 by the time I was a Luitenant. Some of my ROTC peers had more enlisted time than I did including Ranger school and even Special Forces assessment. What I am saying is that Cadets are young and need to be taught to be an Officer and that is a major responsibility of the NCOS in his first platoon, but to assume that they have no understanding, background or training while they are a Cadet is a mistake. They need you to teach them, not disrespect them.

Response by SPC David Young made Mar 15 at 2019 1:14 PM

SPC David Young — Fri, 15 Mar 2019 13:14:43 -0400

My last two years on active duty, I was at Fort Campbell and dealt with cadets at least a dozen times. they ate at the dining facility I was assigned to and I wound up cooking and/or serving their meals. Most of them were respectful there were a couple of arrogant ones who were kind of clueless. I seem to remember an older E7 who was in charge of them in some way. Most of them were extremely careful not to piss him off.

Response by 2LT Earl Dean made Mar 17 at 2019 11:25 PM

2LT Earl Dean — Sun, 17 Mar 2019 23:25:59 -0400

It was always my understanding that until they are confirmed by Congress they are not or do not have an official rank within the military. I may be wrong but that's what I was told over 30 years ago

Response by COL Kasey Warner made Mar 30 at 2019 3:32 PM

COL Kasey Warner — Sat, 30 Mar 2019 15:32:55 -0400

A commissioned officer (or cadet) acting on what may be technically true as far as rank is concerned, especially junior officers, when it comes to NCOs and warrant officers, is often about about the biggest, stupidest mistake one can make.

Response by SPC William Szkromiuk made Mar 30 at 2019 6:57 PM

SPC William Szkromiuk — Sat, 30 Mar 2019 18:57:54 -0400

After taking a deuce and a half full of ROTC cadets for a ride in the boonies. Dusty, hot and bumpy.
I dropped the tail gate as they came tumbling out one cadet got in my face and said he could not wait to come back next year when he had his bars. I pushed my cap into his forehead as I told him next year I will be out. And home "dating" his sister. Now get down and give me 20. He did.

Response by CW4 Russ Hamilton (Ret) made Mar 30 at 2019 11:48 PM

CW4 Russ Hamilton (Ret) — Sat, 30 Mar 2019 23:48:22 -0400

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA! Yes, cadets outrank every NCO - so do warrant officers candidates (WOC's). I was shocked as a PV2 to learn this in an Infantry Company - but any cadet trying to tell a senior NCO what's what is out of their mind and I've never seen it happen in my 40 yrs of service. I became a WOC as an E-7 so not much problem there.

Response by MSgt Peter Vatistas made Mar 31 at 2019 12:27 PM

MSgt Peter Vatistas — Sun, 31 Mar 2019 12:27:29 -0400

As an NCO under a cadet, YOU are responsible for his/her mentorship. This means you show respect to the rank, and pull them aside and correct them for the many missteps they bumbled into along the way. The idea is to mold them into effective officers and leaders. That's not done by showing them that you're better, but by putting YOUR rank aside for the benefit of the unit.

Response by SGT Troy Walker made Mar 31 at 2019 11:40 PM

SGT Troy Walker — Sun, 31 Mar 2019 23:40:15 -0400

Any good officer and NCO knows the differences between rank and respect. That's why pencil pushers with quite a bit of rank gets shown very little respect. Battle prevented lowered ranked individuals are more accepted by others. If cadets have to inform enlisted they out rank them and they better respect them for that. I say it's not a good early career move for them.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2019 1:20 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Apr 2019 01:20:03 -0400

They are cadets and are to be addressed as cadets, Mr. or Mrs. Responsibility wise they are equal to an E-5 and even get paid as one. AR 600-20 does have the cadets over the ncos and below warrants but it contradicts itself because they are not yet commissioned or branch certified. Obviously something that needs to be addressed but who writes the regulations? Officers. Go figure.

Response by CMSgt Peter McDermott made Apr 1 at 2019 6:55 AM

CMSgt Peter McDermott — Mon, 01 Apr 2019 06:55:21 -0400

I guess I am missing something here, show me in your regulation that a cadet, "college student" out ranks any enlisted person. Their rank structure is only for training purposes and they are not an actual officer until they receive their commission. So once again how do they out rank any NCO unless they are doing some sort of training say on ship or at a base and are under the direct order of the commander? Maybe I am just reading this thread wrong.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Apr 1 at 2019 3:41 PM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Mon, 01 Apr 2019 15:41:04 -0400

When I was Army ROTC before USAF OTS, and even while I was USAF OTS, also, when I was active USAF, I knew NEVER to do that, NEVER, EVER...the Army ROTC unit I was in, which no longer exists, had a really senior MSgt, as well as an incredibly senior CSM...if I'd have even THOUGHT of thinking such a thing with them, I'd have been "mentally disemboweled", I knew quite well...when I was done at USAF OTS, and had gone over from the Medina Annex to the main side of Lackland to get the travel pay we were all told to pick up, I happened to pass a "seriously" senior CMSgt with "equally serious" whitewalls, who quite obviously realized I was a brand-new newbie OTS grad; he very graciously whipped one out with a "Morning, Lt, congrats", to which I equally courteously whipped one back, "Morning, Chief, many thanks"...that was one of those REALLY good days, I can assure all of you...

Response by SGT Richard H. made Apr 1 at 2019 5:24 PM

SGT Richard H. — Mon, 01 Apr 2019 17:24:20 -0400

Cadets don't outrank anyone other than lower ranked cadets. They aren't even officially in the Army yet, let alone commissioned as officers. There are, however, certain rules of decorum with which we are expected to abide, acknowledging their future stations.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2019 7:27 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Apr 2019 19:27:12 -0400

I know this is an old question but I am a Cadet right now. As a prior SSG, coming to school with 18, 19, 20, 21 yo cadets is brutal mentally. The seniors who have no prior service are quick to forget they are talking to an active duty option, fresh from nco business. That is the hardest part. Being talked down to by children with no sense of who TF they are talking to.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2019 10:05 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Apr 2019 22:05:56 -0400

No, they do not. They are to be treated with respect, hhowever, that's as far as that goes.

Response by LCpl Mike Zacher made Apr 4 at 2019 2:20 PM

LCpl Mike Zacher — Thu, 04 Apr 2019 14:20:20 -0400

thats a joke right. these idiots are not even in the military yet. school kids

Response by SSG R R made Apr 4 at 2019 3:32 PM

SSG R R — Thu, 04 Apr 2019 15:32:24 -0400

https://www.stripes.com/news/7th-army-cooperation-assures-success-for-3rd-lieutenants-1.40052

7th Army cooperation assures success for '3rd lieutenants'

The cooperation of 7th Army combat troops to West Point "3rd lieutenants" is making the cadet summer overseas training program a huge success, the deputy commandant of the U.S. Military Academy declared here.

Response by PO1 Kevin Arnold made Apr 4 at 2019 10:06 PM

PO1 Kevin Arnold — Thu, 04 Apr 2019 22:06:05 -0400

I am glad I did not have to deal with that. We had what we called want to be officers or midshipmen. We treated them like riders because they were usually only onboard for 1 week. We had to show them what to do and they always had to have someone qualified behind them.

Response by SGT James Hunsinger made Apr 5 at 2019 1:11 AM

SGT James Hunsinger — Fri, 05 Apr 2019 01:11:25 -0400

You know, I once had a cadet walk past me when I had an arm load of things and made a snide comment to me; "Where's my salute Specialist Hunsinger?" To which I replied, "Where is your commission cadet? And while we're here, I did basic training just like everyone else and at no time did they teach me a rank insignia of that black bingo chip on your hat." This went all the way up to my 1SG who sided with me on it and told the cadet I might salute him when he does something worth while like receiving his commission. This was back in 1991 or so but ROTC cadets have no rank as they are not an actual member of the Army yet. Now things may have changed since my days and maybe they are different for different services.

That being said, we were asked to treat the cadets as if they were officers BUT this particular cadet had some real issues and as such we soldiers made his time with us a living hell. We had two other cadets that were great people and I extended those courtesies to them with no problem. Many other times during my career I worked with cadets that I had no problems with. Just that cadet was a real d-bag.

This cadet also made a grave error with my father. I am a Jr. My CW3 father and I were both active duty at the same time. He used to call me in our platoon office once in a while just to say hello and catch up with me when we could. My command was ok with this so no big deal. Said cadet was in the office this day and I just happened to be at the motor pool when my father called. My father started to say; "Hello, this is CW3 Hunsinger could I"...Cadet cut him off and told him impersonating an officer was serious (Thinking it was me apparently) and hung up on him. My father called back and again identified himself at which time the cadet started yelling at him for impersonating an officer. At this point my father decided he had had enough of the cadet and read him the riot act about proper phone etiquette and that he was CW3 Hunsinger and would like to speak with Specialist Hunsinger. The company gave him grief about that for the rest of his time there as well.

I forget his name but I hope he learned some things about how to treat your soldiers as an officer before he became commissioned. I know his fellow cadets didn't like him at all. Maybe his instructors ran him out and did the Army a favor.

I had always been told they had no real military rank but maybe I'm mistaken or just outdated.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2019 7:13 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Apr 2019 07:13:07 -0400

West Point cadets do technically since they take an oath of office upon entering. However, any cadet that insists that they outrank an NCO and treat them as such, is really out on a limb. I doubt that an officer that received a report of a cadet trying to tell an NCO what to do and the NCO telling the cadet to take a flying leap would do anything except tell the cadet to go away. Any cadet that does this probably is not an officer that you want to serve under, the ego is too massive.

Response by CPT Kevin Connolly made Apr 6 at 2019 11:29 AM

CPT Kevin Connolly — Sat, 06 Apr 2019 11:29:46 -0400

You owe this jerk a salute. Back in WWII, while stationed in England, soldiers often encountered butterbar toddlers who made an issue of this in town. The men got even by tag-teaming and dogging the lieutenant and saluting him every block or so, spread out so that the nimrod had to render dozens, if not hundreds, of salutes. It broke them of silly expectations.
Still, soldier, you owe the cadet a salute. This can be a teaching opportunity. So be a nice noncom, give him his salute, and then teach him. That's what NCOs are supposed to do to lieutenants, no?

Response by SFC Wade Adams made Apr 6 at 2019 12:21 PM

SFC Wade Adams — Sat, 06 Apr 2019 12:21:06 -0400

Until that cadet is commissioned, they won’t be giving me orders, it was hard enough listening to a 90 day wonder

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2019 4:52 PM

CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Apr 2019 16:52:26 -0400

One of the first and last mistakes a cadet, or for that matter even a Jr officer, will make would be trying to pull rank on a NCO. Especially a Senior NCO. I was once assigned to a joint mission as the SNCO of a company and a newly-minted 1st Lt made the mistake of using rank to try and bulldoze me. Needless to say, I gave all officers the respect they were due in public, but behind closed doors I told them exactly how they fucked up and told them how they could unfuck themselves. I usually finished the conversation by saying the last thing we will do is surprise the commander with any bad news, so get it sorted out.

So this idiot PTL went to the CC first with a bullshit story and the commander did what any good commander would do, he called me directly. (Side note: I did not get to the top tier of the NCO ranks by lying to or about any officer and I retired with my full honor and integrity intact). Once I laid the story out for the CC he went to the Lt and chewed some serious ass. Needless to say that was the last time any Jr officer in that company even looked at me funny.

My advice to any cadet or Jr. officer who thinks they are all that and bag of chips, would be to show some humility by admitting they don't know shit and find a good Senior NCO to mentor them. That is actually our job. When they make a honest mistake, and they always do, they will need a NCO in their corner to help them out of trouble. Piss that relationship away at the start and repeated failure will be your standard.

Response by CPT Alex Lamb made Apr 8 at 2019 8:22 PM

CPT Alex Lamb — Mon, 08 Apr 2019 20:22:59 -0400

I just remember my ROTC contract saying my rank was equivilant to lower enlisted in the reserves. cant remember what specifically. but if there is a cadet throwing that shit around, it's your responsibility to respectfully tell them to fix themselves. that attitude is toxic and contagious.

Response by SPC Steven Nihipali made Apr 9 at 2019 3:05 AM

SPC Steven Nihipali — Tue, 09 Apr 2019 03:05:36 -0400

if they're wearing that gay as dot on their uni... fuck em. Some gay ass ROTC asswipe doesn't mean shit in the military. Tell the ROTC fucktard to go kiss a jellyfish

Response by SN Joel Penhallegon made Apr 9 at 2019 11:32 PM

SN Joel Penhallegon — Tue, 09 Apr 2019 23:32:59 -0400

When talking about any subject, whether or not it's part of a question, using 'actual(ly)' and/or DOES NOT sound good at all.

Ditto for repetition of word(s)/phrase(s).

Response by SN Joel Penhallegon made Apr 9 at 2019 11:35 PM

SN Joel Penhallegon — Tue, 09 Apr 2019 23:35:57 -0400

When talking about any subject, there are 2 things that DO NOT sound good AT ALL in conversation.
1. Using 'actual(ly)'
2. Repetition of words
The second point wasn't used, which is a wonderful thing.

Response by MAJ Patrick Hairston CISSP, AWS Certified Cloud Architect made Apr 10 at 2019 11:33 AM

MAJ Patrick Hairston CISSP, AWS Certified Cloud Architect — Wed, 10 Apr 2019 11:33:16 -0400

There's a difference between "rank" and "position".
While I was the HHC Brigade commander as a CPT, I knew I didnt "outrank" the Brigade CSM. Sure, If I decided to "lock up" the CSM, and make him come to attention, I probably could have (or not!). But when he told his boss (the COL), who happened to be my boss too, what happened, I would be in a world of hurt and probably I would have been standing at parade rest in front of the CSM later. Those of us who are "Mustangs" like myself have to explain things like this to our lower officers so they understand the relationship between them and the higher enlisted soldiers, so they dont ruin the bond of trust between junior officers and senior enlisted, who in my opinion, make the best mentors to junior officers.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2019 6:49 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 28 Apr 2019 18:49:06 -0400

If you are a cadet and you want to flex your newborn powers of, ahem, command, just think “Would I say the same thing to CSM Basil Plumley.” Your answer to that should guide your journey through your Army experience.

Response by CPT Bobby Johnson made May 12 at 2019 9:19 PM

CPT Bobby Johnson — Sun, 12 May 2019 21:19:28 -0400

Usually No. There are a couple training programs they attend where some authority is given per the Battalion, Company and Platoon commanders. Those programs are CTLT (Cadet Troop Leader Training) and DCLT (Drill Cadet Leader Training).

Basically the chain of command has them shadow and or even take command of a platoon sized element but no UCMJ Signature authority. Basically they have temporary command and people in the section have to listen to them or answer the REAL chain of command. Otherwise cadets of varying experiences are under command and supervised through ROTC/Academy NCOs and Officers.
The Military Academy and Certain Military Schools like The Citadel, Virginia Military Institute and Norwich University tend to have stricter chains and discipline being the nature of military schools.

I’ve been out for a while but Inhope this helps.

Response by SPC William Wells made May 19 at 2019 7:00 PM

SPC William Wells — Sun, 19 May 2019 19:00:38 -0400

Not until they graduate as far as I'm concerned.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2019 10:38 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 May 2019 22:38:19 -0400

No they do not. However they should be treated with respect.

Response by LTC Donell Kelly made May 20 at 2019 6:18 PM

LTC Donell Kelly — Mon, 20 May 2019 18:18:33 -0400

Tomorrow will be the 2nd anniversary of the day my dear friend & best NCO I’ve ever known died. I was a 1st LT, & was older because I’d been out of the Army for 12 yrs. He & the other senior SF NCO’s in our local USAR center dedicated a great deal of time & effort in teaching us soldier tasks, & leading by example in how to take care of troops. He & the other NCO’s made us far better soldiers & better human beings as well. I miss him every day.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2019 9:29 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 May 2019 21:29:45 -0400

Officially E1s outrank cadets, however any good service member knows not to abuse that or use it as a reason for disrespect because A. There still people and B. They may come back as your boss and you don't want them to come back pissed at you.

Response by PO1 Don Rowan made May 21 at 2019 9:59 AM

PO1 Don Rowan — Tue, 21 May 2019 09:59:02 -0400

Well if they're cadets.....no. Commissioned officer....yes, but they would only prove their ignorance by trying to do so.

Response by SSG David Spooner made May 21 at 2019 11:35 AM

SSG David Spooner — Tue, 21 May 2019 11:35:04 -0400

Technically? Yes. In real life? Not one their best day. All Cadet's and most LT's will do well to head the advice of... Two eyes, two ears and one mouth... Look and listen twice as much as you talk.
And never... NEVER, question someone who has more time using a slit trench than you have in the military.

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made May 21 at 2019 11:53 AM

CW4 Craig Urban — Tue, 21 May 2019 11:53:04 -0400

I was sitting at ramstein Afb with my girlfriend who wanted to visit Paris. I had a rental car and most our time was to be spent in the Netherlands. I had booked 4 star hotels with the option to cancel. As a cw4 I was given a suite for the weekend. It was the 4th of July
I could not buy anything rationed but could get beer and one once little bottles or just walk to the nearest German guest house. New butter bars are arriving for their assignments in Germany. Happy. Until I ask one are you infantry? Yes he says. Well you know once you make first LT you are on your way to afganistan. He stops smiling. I get up and say do not piss off your quartermaster.

Response by SFC James Shanks made May 21 at 2019 12:10 PM

SFC James Shanks — Tue, 21 May 2019 12:10:38 -0400

My take on the subject is that a cadet has not been commissioned, therefore has NO rank!!! I didn't need some snot nosed frat boy that has never been trained in any branch try to tell my Soldiers some jacked up crap. He can lead if he gets that far, but as a cadet, he has nothing to do with the training and well-being of my Soldiers. He can watch me train and lead and learn, just don't expect a salute!!!

Response by SFC Edward Tucker made May 21 at 2019 1:38 PM

SFC Edward Tucker — Tue, 21 May 2019 13:38:53 -0400

Cadets are only the equivalent to an E-5 in Pay, but actually have no authority over NCO’s as they are still in their training phase!

Response by 2d Lt Daniel Tolerton made May 21 at 2019 5:41 PM

2d Lt Daniel Tolerton — Tue, 21 May 2019 17:41:06 -0400

During my time as a cadet at USAFA, I participated in a program called 3rd Lieutenant. I went to serve in several enlisted positions and learned that I didn’t know much about the running of the Air Force. I the appreciated better the information value that NCOs had. I passed that lesson on to my son during his ROTC studies.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2019 8:54 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 May 2019 08:54:18 -0400

Response by MAJ Matthew Arnold made May 22 at 2019 12:43 PM

MAJ Matthew Arnold — Wed, 22 May 2019 12:43:06 -0400

Brothers and sisters, it's not about ranking, it's about teaching a young person, in training to be an officer, how to be an officer, which means, you treat them like an officer. Does that mean you treat them like you would any other 1LT? Yes. Does that mean you salute them? Yes. Does than mean you can correct them? Yes, just like you would a 2LT or, 1LT, WO1, CW2, or even a CPT. We are training them to become someone we would want to work with.

Response by SFC Michael D. made May 22 at 2019 2:15 PM

SFC Michael D. — Wed, 22 May 2019 14:15:12 -0400

When I was in Drill Sergeant school I went as an E6 and got promoted to E7 while I was there. Yes I out ranked a lot of the instructors but that doesn't matter. You're there for the school and the instructors are there to teach you. If you knew better that them then you would be teaching the class. And if you are as good as or better than them, apply to be an instructor. A fellow Drill Sargeant and myself had a 2LT in the front leaning rest one day because he was coming from the swiming pool in our training area not wearing a shirt. A cardinal sin. He was at Ft Sam for OBC. After we were done with him is when he told us he was an officer. We just explained the rules, dismissed him and moved out smartly.

Response by SSgt Jerry Johnson made May 22 at 2019 2:51 PM

SSgt Jerry Johnson — Wed, 22 May 2019 14:51:05 -0400

No, They have not yet received their Commission. They are nothing more rhan a recruit with a college degree. They don't out rank anyone other than lower class members

Response by LtCol Dennis Ivan made May 22 at 2019 6:14 PM

LtCol Dennis Ivan — Wed, 22 May 2019 18:14:56 -0400

No. Period. They cannot give orders, you dont salute them, nor call the sir/maam. They hold NO rank in the military. They are cadets/midshipman.
Essentially they are non ranking military members that hold no rank, officer nor enlisted.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2019 11:13 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 May 2019 23:13:17 -0400

No, cadets are not even in the Army, even if they act like they do!

Response by SSG Bill Cooke made May 23 at 2019 12:01 AM

SSG Bill Cooke — Thu, 23 May 2019 00:01:49 -0400

Cadets are cadets and outrank no one.

Response by SSG Bill Cooke made May 23 at 2019 12:03 AM

SSG Bill Cooke — Thu, 23 May 2019 00:03:05 -0400

Cadets are just that cadets and outrank no one. Let them do their job and call them cadets. Good day cadet.

Response by SGT Bob McConnell made May 23 at 2019 12:20 AM

SGT Bob McConnell — Thu, 23 May 2019 00:20:59 -0400

No rank in Ranger school, beat the shit out of a cadet .

Response by PO2 Christina "Jian" Phillips made May 23 at 2019 5:24 AM

PO2 Christina "Jian" Phillips — Thu, 23 May 2019 05:24:07 -0400

I thought until commissioned they don't hold any power to warrant much beyond a salute if on academy territory. Cadets are conditionally respected in my experience. IE you may have to salute them on the street in Annapolis but they don't hold power in a workspace.

Response by Pvt Michael Todd made May 23 at 2019 8:40 AM

Pvt Michael Todd — Thu, 23 May 2019 08:40:26 -0400

Is a cadet an officer before he graduates? I think not, in my reading cadet graduates then congress approves all officer ranks. Till then your just a monkey. Could be wrong but please cite the regs/law.

Response by SFC Michael Peterson made May 23 at 2019 10:53 AM

SFC Michael Peterson — Thu, 23 May 2019 10:53:34 -0400

Cadets are not commissioned officers so, my answer is no, they do not outrank anyone. We would jokingly refer to them as "Third Lieutenants". With that said, I've seen a few come through one of the units I was in and, not once did any of them try to pull rank. They were there to learn, period. A couple of them actually came back to the unit after their commission and they were pretty good Platoon Leaders.

Response by SFC George Simons made May 23 at 2019 12:22 PM

SFC George Simons — Thu, 23 May 2019 12:22:40 -0400

Actually they NCOs so most that outrank PVTs and SPCs.

Response by PO1 Tom Follis made May 23 at 2019 2:21 PM

PO1 Tom Follis — Thu, 23 May 2019 14:21:44 -0400

Cadets are birds without wings.

Response by SSG Lauro Jimenez made May 24 at 2019 9:22 AM

SSG Lauro Jimenez — Fri, 24 May 2019 09:22:48 -0400

No they don't, but you give them the respect. I use to deal with cadets. They are not commissioned officers yet.

Response by 1SG Alan Boggs made May 24 at 2019 12:05 PM

1SG Alan Boggs — Fri, 24 May 2019 12:05:48 -0400

I consider Cadets as an E-5. That's their pay grade. They are treated with respect and mentoring. I have never had one try and pull rank on me and that's a good thing because I don't let 2 LT's pull that crap, let alone a college boy, or girl, for you pronoun Nazis. I have traveled many miles because i was invited to be a new officers 1st salute.

Response by SFC Robert Falco made May 24 at 2019 12:07 PM

SFC Robert Falco — Fri, 24 May 2019 12:07:55 -0400

No, cadets are not commissioned into the service yet.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2019 6:40 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 May 2019 18:40:55 -0400

Negative Ghost Rider!

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2019 7:41 AM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 May 2019 07:41:05 -0400

I was a SMP cadet. One of the last in our state to actually get put in a unit (all SMP Cadets in our state drill at Recruit Sustainment Progam Drills). I was in an infantry unit and the experience was similar to being a pledge in a fraternity. If you’re worth a shit as a soldier and a decent human being that understands the actual role of a PL and PSG then you’d learn a lot from your unit. 99% of cadets think they’re special and it’s their downfall. Same as when they get the bar and lose their minds. Remember, you’re always boot to somebody.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made May 25 at 2019 8:07 AM

1SG Michael Blount — Sat, 25 May 2019 08:07:07 -0400

Something in the back of my feeble mind always thought that, until they (the cadets) actually got commissioned, they had warrant officer status, though not addressed as such. I've seen and had "know it all" officers, considered their rote-learned drivel, and used my more experienced NCOs to show them how the world really works.

Response by SGT Rich Blackaby Bsd made May 25 at 2019 4:30 PM

SGT Rich Blackaby Bsd — Sat, 25 May 2019 16:30:43 -0400

Since the Cadets have not received their Commission, they do not out "rank" the NCO's.

Response by CW5 John Vassar made May 26 at 2019 8:36 PM

CW5 John Vassar — Sun, 26 May 2019 20:36:28 -0400

Technically, Cadets are E-5s ... A West Pointer tried to pull-rank on me when I was a Cadet in the Reserves and I told him to KMA and take me to his Regimental Commander so that we could have-it-out ... Years later, another West Pointer tried to pull-rank on me and I told him that I was wearing Majors Leaves when he was in diapers, so let's go-see the General ... As usual, they scurried back into their holes ... :-)

Response by LTC Ken Connolly made May 26 at 2019 9:56 PM

LTC Ken Connolly — Sun, 26 May 2019 21:56:16 -0400

Cadets are not non commissioned officers, commissioned officers or Warrant Offices. They are students taught by the 3 officer categories I listed previously. This raises a question for me, Are they in the military at all? If not, then a PVT outranks them. :)

Response by MSgt Allen Chandler made May 26 at 2019 10:52 PM

MSgt Allen Chandler — Sun, 26 May 2019 22:52:00 -0400

Is this personal swearing-in the midshipmen candidate’s official Oath of Office? No, the personal swearing-in is ceremonial only. The personal swearing-in is a favorite custom that the Naval Academy utilizes in order to allow midshipmen candidates to share the experience with their family and friends. The midshipmen candidates will sign their official Oath of Office with a commissioned officer earlier in the day and they will take their Oath of Office with the Commandant of Midshipmen during the Oath of Office ceremony in Tecumseh Court at 6 p.m..
I (name), having been appointed an Air Force cadet in the United States Air Force, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office of which I am about to enter. So Help Me God.
If the cadet has not taken the military office of office how can they be in the chain of command? As in NCO me oath call me to obey command of those "appointed" over me.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2019 10:46 AM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 May 2019 10:46:57 -0400

It’s always fun to bash Douche-bags! However, I have had positive experiences as an HM2 with Navy and USMC officer candidates. As I recall they were NROTC folks. Not Annapolis. They all seemed eager to learn, stayed within their appropriate limits as far as rank. And never acted like dicks.
However, new Navy nurses were often snotty, condescending, know it all nitwits. Especially on the Reserve side. 4 yrs of college and some Navy orientation and a few were pretty obnoxious. Especially annoying to us field Corpsman who had been around and been deployed etc. I was always respectful and never rolled my eyes in front of them. Just yessed them and moved on. Let someone else school them. Often our Chief would have a talk with them.
Two young and goofy nurses got into a pissing contest with us during our AT at Naval Hospital Philadelphia. We were taking off with my rental car to Atlantic City and they got all pissy because they “ were in charge.” And they “were responsible for “ us. I was an e5 over 10. One car was on my orders and I had a CDL and drove para transit and ambulances. I think I was 30 yrs old too. “ Yes ma’am, no ma’am, goodbye ma’am.”

Response by CPT Robert Boshears made May 30 at 2019 1:25 PM

CPT Robert Boshears — Thu, 30 May 2019 13:25:19 -0400

No! They may private cooks, better blankets, etc... but, until that butter bar grows on them, they are students.

Response by SPC Franklin McKown made May 30 at 2019 5:19 PM

SPC Franklin McKown — Thu, 30 May 2019 17:19:08 -0400

I was but a LOWLY spec 4 They weren't in my chain,and they were there to LISTEN not talk.
I told them that.they stopped talking about rank.

Response by Cpl Tyler Therrien made Jun 2 at 2019 10:54 AM

Cpl Tyler Therrien — Sun, 02 Jun 2019 10:54:34 -0400

As they have not taken their final oath of office, have not EARNED the right to be call Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine I would have to say NO. They should be shown respect for what they are working to accomplish but NO they have no rank (My opinion)

Response by SPC Joshua Ulch made Jun 2 at 2019 10:58 AM

SPC Joshua Ulch — Sun, 02 Jun 2019 10:58:37 -0400

They can try to pull rank. But if they’re wise, the wouldn’t dare. However, it’s doubtful because they haven’t been commissioned yet, so I don’t believe they can do anything.

Response by SGT Mustafa Stokely made Jun 2 at 2019 11:32 PM

SGT Mustafa Stokely — Sun, 02 Jun 2019 23:32:53 -0400

After my service in the active Army, I went into the Army Reserve and started attending a university. I toyed with the idea of a commission and became an ROTC cadet and was assigned to an Armor Battalion in Farmington, MO. (I don't think Armor Battalions exist anymore, am I correct in my assumption?) At any rate, I want to provide an example which may shed some light on this issue. During formations, we (cadets) stood to the rear of the main formation and remained at ease, even when a senior NCO called everyone to attention. We only came to attention when the order to do so was then given by a commissioned officer. For pay purposes, we were at E5 pay grade and the enlisted folks were required to call us Sir and Mam, (presumably depending on the gender of a given cadet! ha!) As for the rest, we were treated as officers in training. Our proverbial "marching orders" always came from the commissioned folks and we were generally shunned by the NCO's. As a prior-service cadet, I had an easier time being "accepted" by the NCO's than the other cadets with no prior-service experience.

Response by PVT Raymond Lopez made Jun 4 at 2019 1:24 PM

PVT Raymond Lopez — Tue, 04 Jun 2019 13:24:00 -0400

Well they do outrank all the admirals in the Navy!!

Response by SGT Mustafa Stokely made Jun 4 at 2019 10:18 PM

SGT Mustafa Stokely — Tue, 04 Jun 2019 22:18:14 -0400

Okay, here's a conditional answer. West Point cadets indeed outrank all NCO's and also must be saluted like the warrant and commissioned officers. The authority for this is provided in AR 600-20. I quote:

AR 600-20, Section 2:

2-8. Death, disability, retirement, reassignment, or absence of the commander

a. Commander of Army element.

(1) If a commander of an Army element, other than a commander of a headquarters and headquarters element, dies, becomes disabled, retires, is reassigned, or is temporarily absent, the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier will assume command.

(2) If the commander of a headquarters and headquarters element dies, becomes disabled, retires, is reassigned, or is temporarily absent, the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier of the particular headquarters and headquarters element who performs duties within the element will assume command. For example, if a division headquarters and headquarters company commander is temporarily absent, the executive officer as the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier who performs duties within the headquarters company would assume command and not the division commander.

(3) Senior regularly assigned Army Soldier refers (in order of priority) to officers, WOs, cadets, NCOs, specialists, or privates present for duty unless they are ineligible under paragraphs 2-15 or 2-16. They assume command until relieved by proper authority except as provided in 2-8c. Assumption of command under these conditions is announced per paragraph 2-5. However, the announcement will indicate assumption as acting commander unless designated as permanent by the proper authority. It is not necessary to rescind the announcement designating an acting commander to assume duties of the commander “during the temporary absence of the regularly assigned commander” if the announcement gives the time element involved. A rescinding announcement is required if the temporary assumption of command is for an indefinite period.

By the way, here is an article on this subject:
https://mwi.usma.edu/yes-sergeant-actually-west-point-cadet-outrank/

Yes, Sergeant, Actually That West Point Cadet Does Outrank You - Modern War Institute

Scott Faith argues that contrary to popular belief West Point and ROTC cadets outrank NCO's according to Army Command Policy.

Response by SGT Mustafa Stokely made Jun 5 at 2019 12:05 PM

SGT Mustafa Stokely — Wed, 05 Jun 2019 12:05:34 -0400

As per AR 600-20 they are correct and both ROTC, as well as West Point Cadets outrank every NCO... Having said this, keep in mind that a 2LT also outranks a Command Sergeant Major and YET! :D
https://mwi.usma.edu/yes-sergeant-actually-west-point-cadet-outrank/

Yes, Sergeant, Actually That West Point Cadet Does Outrank You - Modern War Institute

Scott Faith argues that contrary to popular belief West Point and ROTC cadets outrank NCO's according to Army Command Policy.

Response by 1SG Delray Jensen made Jun 9 at 2019 1:42 PM

1SG Delray Jensen — Sun, 09 Jun 2019 13:42:38 -0400

Cadets are neither Commissioned or Non-commissioned they have no rank in the armed forces. We generally give them the respect due Officers as part of their training to become Officers.

Response by 1SG J. Shannon Lewis made Jun 28 at 2019 11:50 PM

1SG J. Shannon Lewis — Fri, 28 Jun 2019 23:50:49 -0400

A cadet is only a cadet. They are not active duty and not even a Soldier yet.

Response by MAJ Lawrence Emmons made Jun 29 at 2019 10:04 AM

MAJ Lawrence Emmons — Sat, 29 Jun 2019 10:04:22 -0400

We are two different carreer tracks. When you are wrong as a LT and an E7 corrects you just say thank you (Dirty uniform, John Wayning it)

If a Cadet or LT has an issue with you that person should go to the PLT Seargent and talk to him/her. I was an E6 and retired as a Major. My BTN Commander had an issue with one of my E6's performance. Me and !SG talked to him, he then asked the LTC if there was a problem, LTC says no then angry at me for E6 talking to him.

As far as better leaders I have seen both, but A ROTC grad is a pain, what do they teach them, Enlisted are punished for collar up and other little things. Do not do it. Be professional, it aggravates the Enlisted when you are not and think you are cool. Any one can correct anyone, E4 says sir zip up your jacket, don't argue with him. E4 then will go up his chain and Company Commander has to tell PIA that BC just came down on him.

Response by PO1 Jeffrey Williams made Jul 5 at 2019 7:45 PM

PO1 Jeffrey Williams — Fri, 05 Jul 2019 19:45:41 -0400

To Answer your question you have to put the understanding into it this way, as a Cadet this person is not a commissioned officer until they Graduate and are deemed Under instruction. for that Reason the Answer is No a Cadet does not out rank an E-1 on Active duty.

Response by SPC Stephen Walker made Jul 14 at 2019 10:30 AM

SPC Stephen Walker — Sun, 14 Jul 2019 10:30:34 -0400

I had the privilege of watching a Butterball try to admonish our Top. What ensued afterwards was hilarious and eye opening to the company.

Response by SSgt Phil O'Hearin made Jul 14 at 2019 1:48 PM

SSgt Phil O'Hearin — Sun, 14 Jul 2019 13:48:45 -0400

I'm not actually sure, officially, but unofficially, they do not; if a cadet is relieved from the academy they're not considered a veteran according to the VA at least. I got this from a Navy Academy grad.

Response by PFC Anthony Bruce made Jul 14 at 2019 5:26 PM

PFC Anthony Bruce — Sun, 14 Jul 2019 17:26:46 -0400

On paper yes. In practice no.

Response by Col Robert Wallace made Jul 15 at 2019 12:04 AM

Col Robert Wallace — Mon, 15 Jul 2019 00:04:37 -0400

Whoa there. Let's do a little disecting of the statement "Do cadets actually outrank non-commissioned offices?". I am Air Force but to my knowledge, my comment applies to all branches of the Armed Forces. There are two catagories for military personnel - Enlisted & Officer. Whether a private or a 20 yr NCO, you are considered Enlisted Personnel. Upon being bestowed with a commission, you are now an officer. Between those two classifications is the area for those who are learnig/studying to become an officer - namely, a cadet. A cadet is neither Enlisted Personnel nor Officer & does not outrank anyone outside of the learning institution. In all my years of service, I have never seen, read or heard of any Regulation that authorizes a cadet to outrank a NCO. Along with that is the false statement that Enlisted must salute a cadet. If it is done, it is done as a courtesy, not a requirement.

Response by SGT Darryl Leake made Jul 16 at 2019 8:12 AM

SGT Darryl Leake — Tue, 16 Jul 2019 08:12:07 -0400

Just send SPOT to go talk to the commander.

Response by TSgt Richard Adams made Jul 16 at 2019 11:26 AM

TSgt Richard Adams — Tue, 16 Jul 2019 11:26:12 -0400

Cadets only out rank other Cadets. But treat them with respect because they are your future leaders.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 16 at 2019 12:06 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:06:58 -0400

Brother and sisters, I watched FA BN CSM own CPTs and below. To be honest as SFC I didn’t take crap from a CPT or below. I have more respect for WO

Response by SGT Joseph Dutton made Jul 17 at 2019 12:08 AM

SGT Joseph Dutton — Wed, 17 Jul 2019 00:08:22 -0400

Cadets do not out rank NCO's or PO's and enlisted personnel. However they are due the same respect as commissioned Officers. Also enlisted, NCO's & PO's is not required to salute Cadets but can if she / he wants to exercise the jester, which is fine. Remember that they are not commissioned until they graduate and some will not be immediately be commissioned until further down the line when a billet is open for him or her and then they will be commissioned. Remember that some cadets will have their head above the clouds and one has to bring to the ground level. Ever seen an rank in this form, example (SSG/2ndLT) and so on. More to this and hard to explain . That means someone went through the academy but not commissioned. That form died many decades ago.

Response by CH (CPT) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2019 1:48 PM

CH (CPT) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 17 Jul 2019 13:48:50 -0400

I’m an O3 (and a chaplain so really don’t ever pull rank of anyone)... I wouldn’t even think of throwing rank around with E8’s or 9’s. I have learned so much from E8’s and E9’s in the units where I’ve served. Some cadets may have to learn this the hard way.

Response by MSG William Hesser made Jul 17 at 2019 2:16 PM

MSG William Hesser — Wed, 17 Jul 2019 14:16:14 -0400

No.
Cadets from the Academy are officially paid at the rank of E-5 and aren't officially officers until they finish their training program and officially get commissioned.
ROTC cadets hold no rank except those in school from active duty and only hold the rank they have in their active duty position.
There are times when cadets are put in charge to direct other troops or cadets in training as "acting jack" leaders while going through their training program.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2019 4:58 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:58:29 -0400

Cadets are not commissioned officers nor are they enlisted. NO, they do not out rank anyone.

Response by SP6 Jeffrey Miller made Jul 18 at 2019 1:28 AM

SP6 Jeffrey Miller — Thu, 18 Jul 2019 01:28:04 -0400

Are you familiar with the term "fragging?"

Response by PO2 Ed Taylor made Jul 18 at 2019 10:51 AM

PO2 Ed Taylor — Thu, 18 Jul 2019 10:51:33 -0400

ED TAYLOR USN SN,CN,EN EO2--- USARNG/CAC SGT TRAINING NCO I ALSO WORE MANY HATS.
TO BEGIN WITH AN INDIVIDUAL IS APPOINTED TO A MILITARY ACADEMY AND IF ACCEPTED BECOMES A STUDENT OF MILITARY CUSTOMS AND BEHAVIOR AND ARE BEING TRAINED TO LEAD SOLDIERS NO MATTER WHAT BRANCH THEY SERVE. THEY ARE ORDERED TO LEAD OTHERS ON OCCASION AND AS AN EXAMPLE WHEN ON BOARD A SHIP IN THE NAVY A CADET IS A CADET UNLESS THEY HAVE BEEN GIVING THE RANK OF MIDSHIPMAN. I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT THE OTHER BRANCHES ARE THE SAME IN PROCEDURES. IF AN OFFICER DOES NOT RESPECT THE SENIOR NCO'S ADVICE AND CAUTIONS THEY WILL NEVER BE AN OFFICER ONLY ONLY SOMEONE WHO CARRIES RANK MAKING IT THE REASON THAT ENLISTED SALUTE THE UNIFORM AND RANK NOT THE OFFICER IN THE UNIFORM. CADETS ARE SUBJECT TO THEIR TEACHERS AND SENIOR NCO'S HAVE BEEN TEACHING MOST OF THEIR TIME IN SERVICE AND IN COUNTRY UNDER FIRE AND ADVERSE CONDITIONS IN ORDER TO PROTECT AND SAVE LIVES. ( THEY ARE THE BACKBONE OF THE UNITED STATES MILITARY MACHINE tHE BEST PROTECTION AND FIGHTING FORCE EVER SEEN IN THE WORLD. -----BAR NONE.
THANK YOU ET 9176762 I NEVER WAS PERFECT

Response by MSG Loren Tomblin made Jul 21 at 2019 10:36 AM

MSG Loren Tomblin — Sun, 21 Jul 2019 10:36:46 -0400

I was an Infantry E-4 in Germany back in the day. We had West Point Cadets assigned to my unit. We referred to them in private as 3d LT. Ours had respect for us iin the field and sought our advice. Having said that my grandson was recently commissioned as a 2LT and is currently on hi swat to Ranger school. I advised not to make any tactical or disciplinary decisions without first seeking input from his senior NCO.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Jul 21 at 2019 9:22 PM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Sun, 21 Jul 2019 21:22:57 -0400

I chalk this up to more “weird crap the Army does”.

I’ve heard of Cadets and OCS candidates in the Army being “yes sired” and saluted so what you claim doesn’t sound out of the norms. But the Army is also the org that makes people in PT gear walk around in the middle of the day with a glow strap on and salute in PT gear.

These things are what make Marines belly laugh while shaking their heads. Pointless stuff that drives people to EAS

Response by LCDR Joe Quartararo made Jul 21 at 2019 9:26 PM

LCDR Joe Quartararo — Sun, 21 Jul 2019 21:26:38 -0400

They hold the rank of e-5 for pay purposes....they hold no organizational rank so NCOs do not have to salute them and they outrank no one

Response by SGT Joseph Alanzo made Jul 22 at 2019 12:58 AM

SGT Joseph Alanzo — Mon, 22 Jul 2019 00:58:15 -0400

a cadets pay is the samee as an e-5 sat.

Response by Cadet PVT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2019 9:05 PM

Cadet PVT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Jul 2019 21:05:58 -0400

According to AR 600-20, yes they do. The truth is though that nobody knows this and less people care, including cadets. Unless a cadet is out of their mind they’ll usually act subordinate to NCOs. Nonetheless, if a situation as described in AR 600-20B occurs it is the cadets responsibility to become an acting officer.

Response by SGT Kevin Dorsey made Jul 23 at 2019 11:11 PM

SGT Kevin Dorsey — Tue, 23 Jul 2019 23:11:29 -0400

As a former NCO and ROTC cadet no. That said I was paid at E-5 and was an E-5 in the Reserves and was double slotted as an officer performing all the duties and responsibilities of the position. The Troops were told they do not have to salute me or call me sir but they could if so moved to. I earned the respect of EM's and NCO's alike by putting the troops first and received many salutes and sirs.

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Aug 3 at 2019 8:43 AM

1SG James Kelly — Sat, 03 Aug 2019 08:43:35 -0400

Do 2 lts outrank 1SGs and WOs?

Ye4s but.

Life is hard, it's harder when you're stupid.

Response by GySgt Charles O'Connell made Aug 12 at 2019 5:24 AM

GySgt Charles O'Connell — Mon, 12 Aug 2019 05:24:28 -0400

Maybe in the Italian navy, but I know of no scenario where someone who is essentially a "Trainee" has authority over a NCO, or enlisted member. But hey, I'm always up for a laugh, so go ahead Cadet, role the dice and give some guidance and direction to a Cpl or Sgt, see how that works out for you.

Response by LTC Patrick Turner made Aug 18 at 2019 8:26 PM

LTC Patrick Turner — Sun, 18 Aug 2019 20:26:28 -0400

Technically they do is my understanding but from a practical standpoint it has to be earned in my view.

Response by SPC Steven Nihipali made Aug 19 at 2019 11:09 AM

SPC Steven Nihipali — Mon, 19 Aug 2019 11:09:33 -0400

this damn question again? Really? I mean come on man... doesn't anyone read before they open their mouth? Fuck no them stupid ass dot's mean a damn thing. Don't let officers tell you otherwise. All them little pieces of shit don't mean anything, nor can they give you a command that's worth shitting in the wind. If a dot tells you anything, tell them to fuck off and go back in their hole. Command will make any decisions on whether or not they have any pull.

Response by SSgt Brian Stanhope made Aug 23 at 2019 9:22 AM

SSgt Brian Stanhope — Fri, 23 Aug 2019 09:22:47 -0400

I do not believe a Cadet holds any field rank. They are commissioned upon graduation. If a cadet is "smart" they will show respect to all active duty members and leave the rank conversation for after they complete their studies; gain commission and will then, without ambiguity "outrank" 100% of non commissioned and warrant officers.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2019 12:02 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Aug 2019 12:02:25 -0400

People keep quoting AR 600-20 table 1-1 but no one has asked if these cadets have actually joined the military. If they are not under contract they don't outrank anyone. If they are under contract yes they do but in the same way a 1st or 2nd LT does. They don't know anything and alot of what they do know is wrong. So it's your job to guide and train them.

Response by SSG Jeff Forker made Aug 23 at 2019 12:31 PM

SSG Jeff Forker — Fri, 23 Aug 2019 12:31:47 -0400

Hell, no, not until they are commissioned officers, unless that has changed dramatically.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2019 2:39 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Aug 2019 14:39:40 -0400

way back when I was an MP company CO, we were so short of officers that I had 2 cadets and an E7 as PLs....

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2019 10:37 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 24 Aug 2019 10:37:56 -0400

The correct response is: Negative. Unless/Until they are a Commissioned Officer, as an NCO, you are GOD to them. They only have power over you (POST Commissioning) because they have received delegatory powers via the President of the United States to give such commands. So frankly, until they are no longer a cadet, they are nothing w.r.t. Military authority.

Response by PO1 Kevin Dougherty made Aug 26 at 2019 12:28 AM

PO1 Kevin Dougherty — Mon, 26 Aug 2019 00:28:40 -0400

Can't speak for other services, but the few I saw as a PO-1 (E-6) in the USCG had it made very clear to them that they were the bottom of the food chain. My step son was permanent party on the Eagle and even as an SA/SN (E-2/3) his job was to work with, supervise and train the academy cadets.

Response by CPT James Schleck made Aug 26 at 2019 10:59 AM

CPT James Schleck — Mon, 26 Aug 2019 10:59:58 -0400

Technically they do. But in reality: cadets truly outrank E5 and below. LTS outrank E7 an below. No one outranks E9's - they know everything

Response by SSgt Lawrence Gordon made Aug 26 at 2019 12:28 PM

SSgt Lawrence Gordon — Mon, 26 Aug 2019 12:28:59 -0400

Perhaps a good spanking is in order.

Response by John Hundley made Aug 26 at 2019 2:32 PM

John Hundley — Mon, 26 Aug 2019 14:32:43 -0400

Hey folks -Air Force Dad here. I have a son, daughter and son-in-law on active duty - all Captains/Majors. Many veterans in my ancestral tree.
Let me tell you what I see here: CADETS are *practice* *pretend* *on training wheels* young officers , but they out'rank' NO ONE on Active Duty because they have not and do not take the Oath or recieve their Commission to join the line under AFTER THEY GRADUATE from a service academy, ROTC (at colllege) or OCS. Period. Stop.
They are "non-commissioned" (not sworn in or commissioned) civilians. They can be saluted and treated with respect b/c they 'probably will be /may be' an officer someday, but the reality is they are civilians in training. Their ranks are 'Cadet' ranks. No medals or awards the win in ROTC or otherwise carry over to Active Duty. They are NOT empowered to boss ANYONE other than junior cadets. Think of Cadets as a side-, silent-, separate "silo" reserve of young folks that may eventually slot into the ranks as active duty personnel. But they are not. Training wheels.

Response by MSG Kristin Wahl made Aug 26 at 2019 11:21 PM

MSG Kristin Wahl — Mon, 26 Aug 2019 23:21:38 -0400

The age old battle of whooper snapped versus the well known experienced. I have watch a many of power struggles. Just let them youngins think so.

Response by Sgt Mario Soberal made Aug 27 at 2019 2:12 PM

Sgt Mario Soberal — Tue, 27 Aug 2019 14:12:06 -0400

Maturity comes with age. Leadership comes with experience. I've seen very few 22-year-olds in the military or the civilian world who were Mature Leaders. Maybe 1 or 2 and not complete by any means. The most important thing they should teach in the academies is the ability to Adapt, Improvise and Overcome and of course situational awareness. Unfortunately, those little gold bars make you an expert, just like hitting 14 does it for little girls....

Response by PO2 Pamela Perry (Sanders) made Aug 27 at 2019 7:33 PM

PO2 Pamela Perry (Sanders) — Tue, 27 Aug 2019 19:33:27 -0400

For a long time, our office at USCGHQ did not have a chief. Because of that, I would pull the new ensigns aside, help them set up an “inspection uniform” and get them set up with whatever they needed. I let each of them know they could come to me with questions they might be reluctant to ask someone senior to them. If I didn’t know the answer, I found it. I did their correspondence and cleaned it up (with permission) when it needed it. I had the uniform regs for every formal occasion printed for them so they were prepared.

I always considered it my job to support, sometimes do what I could to “train” them and give them insider info they needed. My job was to help them be successful.

Response by Cpl Greg Rock made Aug 27 at 2019 11:31 PM

Cpl Greg Rock — Tue, 27 Aug 2019 23:31:51 -0400

I first heard that myself when I was 14 or 15 and my older brother was a middie at Annapolis; three years prior to departure to Parris Island I knew right away that something wasn't quite right about that. But that indeed was the case. Luckily, we were both "Army brats"-- Dad was career Army, Enlisted --> OCS --> officer-- and I'm pretty sure he locked him on.

Then again, others are clueless and/or not privy to such guidance, sometimes with disastrous results.

It's kinda on par with the conventional wisdom vis-a-vis: yes, a 2nd Lieutenant/Ensign outranks, say, a Sgt Major or a Master Gunnery Sergeant/Master Chief, and yes, old lifer SNCOs are professional enough and comfy enough in their own skin to render all the due and proper customs and courtesies as they should.

Yet I've personally witnessed a couple incidents in which some boot Lieutenant saw fit to try and sweat, say, a Sgt Major and wound up needed skin grafts to replace the parts of their face and/or ass that got chewed or burned off.

When I was with 2nd Tank Bn, the battalion "Top"-- MGySgt Sloan-- was a legend. A quintessential battle-scarred old Gyrene: tough as hell, hilariously profane, feared and respected in equal measure, "joined the Corps when Christ was a Corporal," the whole bit. Nobody, not even the Battalion CO, dared try and lean on him. And he was not one to suffer fools; I guess he figured that if nothing else, 36 years in the Corps and two wars meant he didn't have to.

I'm pretty sure he had a couple pair of balls from some careless Lieutenants who tried to bust his chops hanging from the rearview mirror of his truck like fuzzy dice. I remember hearing that one of them went to the Battalion CO to report the offense and request/demand satisfaction; the CO allegedly busted out laughing, said something akin to "Well, I guess now you know better, don't you?" and told him to get the hell out of his office.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 28 at 2019 1:09 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 28 Aug 2019 13:09:50 -0400

Remember that an NCO is a non commissioned officer. Remember that even though he or she is not commissioned they are still an officer of sorts. A cadet is merely a candidate who hopes to be commissioned at a future date. therefore living in the moment an NCO outranks a cadet.

Response by Maj Wayne Crist made Aug 28 at 2019 6:58 PM

Maj Wayne Crist — Wed, 28 Aug 2019 18:58:47 -0400

Frankly I told cadets in for the summer they best not make an issue of it.

Response by MSgt David Guenther made Aug 28 at 2019 9:02 PM

MSgt David Guenther — Wed, 28 Aug 2019 21:02:39 -0400

I was a TSgt when my new Life Support Officer, OIC in title only came into MY shop and started throwing out stupid orders to my troops to 'establish' himself. I sat back and did only what I was ordered to do. After a sortie was cancelled and I was called into the Ops officers office for an ass chewing I simply explained that Lt was giving all the orders. He gave me a little smile that lacked any humor or warmth and dismissed me. I didn't make it ten steps and the Lt was being paged by the Ops O. Half an hour later me and the Lt had a heart-to-heart. We established an understanding. I ran the section and he was the face of the section with the other pilots. No repercussions.

Response by CPT William Jones made Aug 31 at 2019 9:39 AM

CPT William Jones — Sat, 31 Aug 2019 09:39:04 -0400

Well would say this to all the NCO,s out there. It really doesn't make any difference while he is a cadet I would suggest That h/her be treated with a bit of respect as a minimum They might have long memories, The military is not that big and you might meet them again and they will surely outrank you then. I went to a Military school and had the usual at that time hazing by a couple of upperclassmen. Busted out of school joined army received a commission after awhile and ran into them in RVN and or Germany and outranked them and one was assigned to my bridge company when I took command SO REMEMBER WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND.

Response by 2LT Paul Denhup made Sep 4 at 2019 3:38 PM

2LT Paul Denhup — Wed, 04 Sep 2019 15:38:15 -0400

Classic fun at all levels.

Response by Cpl Tyler Therrien made Sep 8 at 2019 10:08 AM

Cpl Tyler Therrien — Sun, 08 Sep 2019 10:08:33 -0400

Just my opinion but not only NO but HELL NO! The have not earned the right to be called "Soldier Sailor or Marine" The have no rank therefore how can they possibly outrank those who have earned it?

Response by PO1 Steve Ditto made Sep 8 at 2019 10:30 AM

PO1 Steve Ditto — Sun, 08 Sep 2019 10:30:26 -0400

During my 20 plus years of riding Submarines we had a few ride us during the summer months, they did not even get to eat with the officers, much less bunk in officer country, When they came on board, they thought they were Gods gift to the enlisted guys, it did not take but just a few minutes for them to learn the lowest seaman was senior to them. There were not salutes not "Sir's" just "sweep the deck, empty the trash can, ETc... They were there to learn how a submarine worked and ATTEMPT to do what was next to impossible to accomplish and that was to Qualify in 3 months as you were given 1 year to do in normal times to do. Yes a few of the guys did accomplish this task.

Response by SSG John Bacon made Sep 8 at 2019 5:39 PM

SSG John Bacon — Sun, 08 Sep 2019 17:39:36 -0400

Someone show me on this chart were cadet is, and then I will salute/call Sir/Ma'am them. Until the day of commissioning all they are, are college students wearing uniforms. At the day of commissioning, I would gladly salute call Sir/Ma'am.
https://www.defense.gov/Our-Story/Insignia/

U.S. Military Rank Insignia

Military rank is more than just who salutes whom. Military rank is a badge of leadership. Responsibility for personnel, equipment, and mission grows with each increase in rank.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2019 10:56 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Sep 2019 22:56:25 -0400

It was such a joy serving as an E5 Cadet in a company executive officer position in the National Guard, after a six year Naval enlistment, prior to commissioning. There was a SPC in my unit, with no prior active service, who loved trying to put me in my place all the time. Some of the comments I have read brought back those joyful memories.

Response by SGT Darryl Leake made Sep 11 at 2019 12:05 AM

SGT Darryl Leake — Wed, 11 Sep 2019 00:05:00 -0400

Usually we called them Spot.

Response by SGT Drue Rockwell made Sep 14 at 2019 9:49 PM

SGT Drue Rockwell — Sat, 14 Sep 2019 21:49:52 -0400

Virtually or in reality? Sure, on paper a cadet has rank over any enlisted member. Good luck pulling rank on pretty much anyone other than a private, though...we generally told them "Sit down and shut up. You're just here to learn...Sir."

Response by SN Daniel Larsen made Oct 2 at 2019 7:28 PM

SN Daniel Larsen — Wed, 02 Oct 2019 19:28:50 -0400

No they do not. Unless the ruling has changed since the 69s

Response by LTC Robert Keenan made Oct 3 at 2019 5:21 AM

LTC Robert Keenan — Thu, 03 Oct 2019 05:21:37 -0400

I received my appointment as an enlisted man in the Army Reserves. Took Basic Training on active Duty. Learned to appreciate the expertise of NCOs, and how much I could learn from them as a cadet and later as an officer. If more cadets had my background there wouldn’t be any of those standoffs. In fact, I never saw one incidence similar to the one posited in the previous postings.

Response by 1LT Richard Johnson made Oct 3 at 2019 3:11 PM

1LT Richard Johnson — Thu, 03 Oct 2019 15:11:04 -0400

No cadets do not out rank NCO's there are students, and has not been commissioned into the military as officers

Response by SGT Charles Bartell made Oct 4 at 2019 12:27 PM

SGT Charles Bartell — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 12:27:15 -0400

Does the cadet go to west point, Or one of the other real Military academy.
Annapolis, The Air Force academy.
They are more likely to become a Officer in the military.
To my understanding they have the rank of E-5 and are paid like other enlisted. But do your best to treat them with the respect of a real Officer.
Regular college R.O.T.C.. No rank.

My experience as been that about half think they know it all, And the other half want to learn all they can from N.C.O.'s and even lower enlisted.
They want to learn about the stupid shit not to do.
Like coming in new and changing things. Not knowing anything about how it relay works.
Or the P.L. who's wife is out of town so he has every has to do a complete Inventory of every thing. On a 3 or 4 day weekend, And waits for the rest of the Company to leave to have more room.
Most of us have had them.
Just remember you all will probably have to deal with cadet's from time to time.
So when you first meet them. Let them know that it is a learning experience for every one involved.
So feel free to ask any thing or if they would like to see how some thing's are done.
That has always worked well for me.

Response by 1stSgt Jeff Blovat made Oct 4 at 2019 8:34 PM

1stSgt Jeff Blovat — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 20:34:05 -0400

Where’d you get your degree Gunny?

-“Heartbreak Ridge”...

Response by PO3 Adam Stoflet made Oct 4 at 2019 9:30 PM

PO3 Adam Stoflet — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 21:30:24 -0400

One of my RDC’s back in boot camp said something along the lines of this “ those uniforms are out on load you haven’t earned the right to wear them yet”.

In the Navy we have something called Frocking where you are allowed to wear the uniform, assume the duties, responsibilities and title of the next pay grade after you have been selected for promotion but make no mistake until you get paid for it you are still at that pay grade you was at before. If you mess up during this window not only do you lose the promotion but you go down a pay grade. Example Frocked at E-4, Still getting paid at E-3, Get demoted to E-2.

Also their is such things as positional authority, as long as it is done in the proper manner.

In closing Cadets are like recruits in boot camp they haven’t been commissioned to their proper rank, they are given those titles and positions in good faith until they have earned them.

Response by MAJ Wayne MacKirdy made Oct 4 at 2019 10:18 PM

MAJ Wayne MacKirdy — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 22:18:09 -0400

NOPE!

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2019 8:54 AM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Oct 2019 08:54:20 -0400

I can only comment on OCS. For OCS we are E-4 but in a E-5 pay grade(we get payed as an E-5). We are in gray are since we are part of TRADOC and are in a student status. Until cadets commission they are in the same boat as OCS. Short answer is no.

Response by Cpl Gabriel F. made Oct 6 at 2019 3:08 PM

Cpl Gabriel F. — Sun, 06 Oct 2019 15:08:01 -0400

Marines of the sixties had no clue that senior contracted cadets held rank. Observed one cadet ending up on his ass in a airport after approaching a Vietnam Marine. Did not hear what was said but it was a short conversation.

Response by Maj Earl Tilford made Oct 6 at 2019 4:41 PM

Maj Earl Tilford — Sun, 06 Oct 2019 16:41:35 -0400

Senior cadets I taught at the Air Force Academy thought they outranked junior officers, or at least acted like they did. I taught there as a captain. Dooleys (freshmen) and second and their year cadets were okay but those seniors actually believed the horseshit fed them about out "special" they were. On the first day of class chocked full of seniors, I noticed how slowly they stood to attention. I stopped, said, "Take your seats. I'm going out and coming back in. You try coming to attention." They did. I explained that until they made chairman of the joint chiefs, they were going to do a lot of coming to attention.
My first assignment as a lieutenant was in Southeast Asia where a Polish refugee senior NCO always called me, his second lieutenant "Sir." And with the very respectful tone of, "If the lieutenant will allow me, sir...." kept my ass out of trouble and taught me a lot more than I thought I could ever have imagined. Louis Zaborsky gets my salute any day.

Response by SPC Ron Salsbury made Oct 6 at 2019 9:55 PM

SPC Ron Salsbury — Sun, 06 Oct 2019 21:55:07 -0400

ROTC or Cadet did not mean much to the Crew Chief on board the Helicopter, the only one who had more respect or authority to us than any young Officer or Warrent, was the Vietnam Veteran Pilots, they were Gods to us; spots we laughed at until they earned their respect.

Response by SPC Kevin Walker made Oct 8 at 2019 3:36 PM

SPC Kevin Walker — Tue, 08 Oct 2019 15:36:10 -0400

I was a enlisted cannoneer in the early 1970s and we trained cadets in artillery and at that time they had no rank sometimes you would git a smart ass one but most the time they respected that we trying to teach them

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 9 at 2019 7:26 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Oct 2019 07:26:05 -0400

No cadets do not out rank NCOs. Some have not completed basic training and/or AIT(BOLOC). I do understand they need to get advice from the officers. But they have not made there commission. They get paid at the E5 or E6 rank while they a cadet.

Response by SCPO Steven Pierce made Oct 10 at 2019 12:10 PM

SCPO Steven Pierce — Thu, 10 Oct 2019 12:10:39 -0400

This question is a little misleading. It would be more accurate to ask, "Does a military cadet or midshipman have the authority to issue a lawful order to an enlisted service member?" Consider, an NCO is outranked only by more senior NCOs (by rank or date of rank), and by officers holding either a commission from the President or a warrant from their service Secretary. To my knowledge, cadets and midshipmen are neither commissioned nor warrant officers; so the answer is no, cadets and midshipmen do not have the authority to issue lawful orders to enlisted military personnel. While officer candidates and ROTC cadets can receive military pay (stipend) at certain rates, their paygrade does not constitute a military rank. This seems why there is a distinction between paygrade and rank so that questions like this one can be properly answered. I hope this helps.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2019 11:21 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Oct 2019 11:21:33 -0400

They think they do hahahahahaha #entitlement

Response by SFC Jeff Garner made Oct 31 at 2019 6:05 PM

SFC Jeff Garner — Thu, 31 Oct 2019 18:05:22 -0400

No.

Response by SSG David Ursini made Nov 1 at 2019 2:31 PM

SSG David Ursini — Fri, 01 Nov 2019 14:31:07 -0400

When I was a Midshipman, it was believed that Cadets/Midshipman fell in between W01 and W02. But, no Cadet or Midshipman would be saluted by an NCO unless the Cadet or Midshipman had earned a MOH or DSC!

Response by PO1 John Pokrzywa made Nov 4 at 2019 4:11 AM

PO1 John Pokrzywa — Mon, 04 Nov 2019 04:11:52 -0500

No. Cadets are entitled to customs and courtesies, however they do not technically "outrank" NCOs. A cadet is an Officer *candidate*. Not an Officer.
They are not commissioned, have not taken their oath, and some, may not make it that far.
Treat them with respect? Yes. There are customs and courtesies required by every service; but like other college students they do not "outrank" anyone but other cadets, until they are commissioned.

Response by SFC Grant Ross made Nov 4 at 2019 11:45 AM

SFC Grant Ross — Mon, 04 Nov 2019 11:45:33 -0500

LMAO NO!

Response by SFC Grant Ross made Nov 4 at 2019 11:48 AM

SFC Grant Ross — Mon, 04 Nov 2019 11:48:05 -0500

If you’re around Cadets I would recommend taking the opportunity to educate them on being humble and training them to be a leader, but they’re still Cadets and hold no official rank according to DoD. I’d happily crush a Cadet any day if they pressed their luck. As a former BOLC instructor our roles as NCOs can be impactful for future and young Officers.

Response by SFC Michael McCauley made Nov 4 at 2019 1:21 PM

SFC Michael McCauley — Mon, 04 Nov 2019 13:21:37 -0500

I would love to relate my cadet story but I will refrain and only say she was working to help pay her college bills when I ran into her at an establishment. She did become a very good officer later on though.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2019 1:32 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 Nov 2019 13:32:12 -0500

As a cadet myself, I would never in my right mind go around flaunting my 'rank' even if it is true by technicality. We hold no authority and are in the learning phase of our military careers. Its absolutely entertaining, however, to see cadets try to pull rank on ANY NCO.

Response by PO1 Sean Reynolds made Nov 5 at 2019 9:17 AM

PO1 Sean Reynolds — Tue, 05 Nov 2019 09:17:00 -0500

Technically a Cadet is below an E-1/E-2 that has finished bootcamp. Cadets are basically students with title. Now if it's an NCO whom get into the academy I'm not sure if they lose the rights and responsibilities as such and are assigned TAD upon graduation.

Response by CPL Jason Kahl made Nov 5 at 2019 3:13 PM

CPL Jason Kahl — Tue, 05 Nov 2019 15:13:55 -0500

My answer would be depends, back in the 90s when I was in a Cadet going to OCS was given E6 rank while in school.
BUT! My opinion is that until that Bar turn at least Silver...keep your mouth shut!

Response by MSG Johnathan Mathes made Nov 5 at 2019 6:36 PM

MSG Johnathan Mathes — Tue, 05 Nov 2019 18:36:42 -0500

I see a lot of folks here eager to crush nuts .. know your roles... NCOS you are there as guidance and to follow your commanders intend.. where the rubber meets the road.. cadets can learn the right way or the wrong way.. you being butt hurt by who out ranks who is ridiculous.. you can give guidance .. remember unless it’s a no fail mission.. or going to hurt life limb or eyesight .. it’s ok to let them fail at small things provided you teach coach and mentor from it .. don’t set them up intentionally... experience will win if used correctly..

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2019 9:52 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Nov 2019 09:52:27 -0500

the simple answer is yes. A smart cadet will also realize that just because you out-rank someone that doesn't mean you know more than they do.

Response by SrA John Monette made Nov 6 at 2019 12:36 PM

SrA John Monette — Wed, 06 Nov 2019 12:36:12 -0500

yes BUT a cadet with any brains will realize and acknowledge that the NCOs, and some lower enlisted, will have a LOT to teach them. they will keep their mouths shut about rank and LEARN from their NCOs, the same way any 2 or 1 LT worth his salt will.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2019 1:31 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Nov 2019 13:31:47 -0500

"cadet" is not a rank, lets start there.
If you are SMP, then a cadet is a specialist! So, still doesn't out rank me.
Some of the SMP may get "paid" as an E5 in the reserve depending on the contract; however, thats for pay purposes. Still does not out rank a Non-Commissioned Officer.
Only a Cadet of the U.S. Military Academy outranks an NCO as specified in AR 600-20 Table 1-1

Response by SFC George Simons made Nov 7 at 2019 10:32 PM

SFC George Simons — Thu, 07 Nov 2019 22:32:21 -0500

I do believe cadets are given a temporary rank of E5, but no cadet actually out ranks any real soldier esp senior noncoms.

Response by MSgt Allen Chandler made Nov 8 at 2019 6:38 PM

MSgt Allen Chandler — Fri, 08 Nov 2019 18:38:52 -0500

This question of who outranks who takes on new meaning when you consider the situation.
As example; a Sergeant is standing guard and the Colonel approaches his post. The Sergeant orders the Colonel to halt. It's a lawful command, and the Colonel halts. The Sergeant shows the Colonel respect, but he is in charge. He asked the questions and he decide whether to allow the Colonel to pass. There are cases during nuclear weapons convoys where I as a technical Sergeant had the authority to override the base commander about whether the weapon could be moved, it was inherent in my responsibilities, according to the regulation. Rank is always showing respect, but some positions hold authority Regardless of rank.
I would argue most situations where cadets are interacting with senior NCOs the senior NCOs are in charge.

Response by Maj John Bell made Nov 8 at 2019 8:48 PM

Maj John Bell — Fri, 08 Nov 2019 20:48:22 -0500

Yeah... I was a Midshipman. Unless things have changed drastically, I raise the urban myth flag.

There may have been the oddball cadet or midshipmen who verbalized that cadets and midshipmen outrank NCO's. He/she would pretty quickly find himself/herself ostracized by any other cadet or midshipmen in the radius of a tactical nuke, and given a lesson in theory vs reality by any SNCO or Junior Officer in earshot.

One of the first things you learn as a cadet or midshipman is that regardless of "rank" if you are not in the chain of command, you better have all your ducks lined up in a row, dress right dress; before you stick your finger in somebody else's chain of command. There better be an over riding reason why you don't keep it to yourself until you can talk to the appropriate level person IN the chain of command. The next thing you learn is that you are a damn fool at any rank if you can consult with your senior enlisted adviser and don't.

Response by LTC David Brown made Nov 8 at 2019 10:14 PM

LTC David Brown — Fri, 08 Nov 2019 22:14:16 -0500

When I was a 2nd Lt in AMEDD basic it was explained to us this way.” The enlisted personnel are NOT in your chain of command. If they tell you to do something please be advised It be hooves you to do it. If you don’t do it or try to pull rank some one who far outranks you will get you squared away”!

Response by SGT Joseph Alanzo made Nov 8 at 2019 11:27 PM

SGT Joseph Alanzo — Fri, 08 Nov 2019 23:27:35 -0500

all cadets are as equal as an e-5 set. and the pay is the same also

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Nov 9 at 2019 9:06 AM

SFC Robert Walton — Sat, 09 Nov 2019 09:06:47 -0500

NO. A Cadet is still in training. Cadets are students in school they are not active Duty Commissioned. I believe where some of the confusion comes in is as Cadets They have both Cadet NCO ranks and Cadet Officer Ranks. That being said when a Cadet is assigned to a Unit during training faze they are treated as a 2nd LT. However are not yet Commissioned and Swore the Oath. They are there to learn not lead. Pretty hard to be an Officer with out commission and swareing in. JMTC

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2019 1:08 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 15 Nov 2019 01:08:26 -0500

According to the regs... yes... but woe unto the cadet who says that to any battle hardened NCO. Gonna be a rough day.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2019 1:13 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 15 Nov 2019 01:13:31 -0500

AR 600-20, look up order of precedence by rank.
It's in chapter 1, depending on the publication year you are reading its section 1-7, 1-8, or 1-9 I think.

Response by PO2 Jim Whitcomb made Nov 19 at 2019 11:28 PM

PO2 Jim Whitcomb — Tue, 19 Nov 2019 23:28:35 -0500

My experience in the Navy with midshipmen was they receive the honors of an officer but not the authority. We were told not to take instructions from them.

Response by CPO William Rys made Nov 20 at 2019 8:58 PM

CPO William Rys — Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:58:55 -0500

The “smart” cadets FULLY understand they are complete dumbasses in comparison to most every NCO they will meet, and in order to grow and succeed, they need to pay attention and learn from those with actual experience in the field. The rest will rarely succeed in their careers unless they let go of their egos and change their ways.

During my Navy career, there were many times we had a few Midshipmen on board for several weeks to gain practical fleet experience until they went back to their “book learnin” at the Academy.

We were always told to pay them the respect they deserved and not embarrass or harass them in any way. If they were civil and respectful to us in return, we provided information they needed, answered their questions, allowing them to operate equipment when appropriate. Those who displayed any arrogance or tried to prove they knew more than they actually did, were soon told by leadership to “stand in that corner, pay attention to what the professionals were doing, and you may end up learning something from this experience. And for God’s sake, DON’T touch anything!!!”

Response by Sgt Robert Rodriguez made Nov 27 at 2019 2:25 PM

Sgt Robert Rodriguez — Wed, 27 Nov 2019 14:25:34 -0500

I would say Cadets are not yet officers and saluting them belittles the accomplishments of standing Officer. Why would an Officer want to be placed at the same level as a cadet? On the other hand, I was brought up to say "sir" or "ma'am" when addressing anyone. Addressing a Cadet in "Cadet name" is most appropriate.

Response by PO1 William Van Syckle made Nov 29 at 2019 2:14 AM

PO1 William Van Syckle — Fri, 29 Nov 2019 02:14:59 -0500

I can tell you that I have never saluted a cadet. In the Army or the Navy. In fact, I caught a midshipman once on my ship chewing out a seaman for not saluting. I walked up, told the seaman to carry on and turned to the midshipman and told him if I ever caught him trying to get a crew member to salute him again, I would take him before the Skipper and possibly charge him with impersonating a Commissioned Officer. No problems from that cadet the rest of the time they were aboard.....

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Dec 12 at 2019 1:09 PM

Sgt Dale Briggs — Thu, 12 Dec 2019 13:09:55 -0500

The only advantage they possess is with their paperwork they can gain attendance to the O Club or O Mess. That’s it, they’re college students doing whatever, in my case they dominated my class at FT Benning in jump school. From there some were moving on to Ranger School. One of them got me a set of papers and I enjoyed the O Club with them, I was an E4 at that time, and I can’t remember any snotty cadets, they were all young guys following a career path and they in no way felt superior to anyone from my view.

Response by SSG Darrell Peters made Dec 12 at 2019 1:29 PM

SSG Darrell Peters — Thu, 12 Dec 2019 13:29:50 -0500

My father was an ROTC instructor when this happened to him. SFC and a Korean War Veteran. To say the entertainment quality was exquisite would be an understatement. He politely reminded the Cadet who was the student and who was the teacher. Then the real dressing down occurred. It ended with day saying basically The Cadet had to go through him if he had any hopes of ever being an Officer.

Response by GySgt Joe Strong made Dec 12 at 2019 2:07 PM

GySgt Joe Strong — Thu, 12 Dec 2019 14:07:48 -0500

True, for Academy, and Junior & Senior ROTC.
However the Cadet has likely never heard of the term "Malicious Compliance".
You gonna learn today son...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 12 at 2019 3:35 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Dec 2019 15:35:44 -0500

Just let them flap their gums on how they know how to do a task. When they are done, take over, apologize for the time wasted and then do the correct training

Response by SSG John Jensen made Dec 12 at 2019 4:47 PM

SSG John Jensen — Thu, 12 Dec 2019 16:47:49 -0500

told a cadet (Cadidiot or ROTCreature) that every soldier in Basic memorizes all of the ranks in the Army, and nowhere in that list is cadet. He was upset.

Response by SGT Eric Knutson made Dec 13 at 2019 10:41 AM

SGT Eric Knutson — Fri, 13 Dec 2019 10:41:50 -0500

When I was a Cadet at New Mexico Military Institute and was assigned to an Engineer unit, for training purposes I was the Plt Ldr, but as was pointed out to me by both my Chief as well as my CO, it is for training only (mine) but that I am NON deployable, and the troops knew this.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2019 8:56 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 Dec 2019 20:56:58 -0500

Contracted senior and GRFD scholarship cadets do, however it’s really hard to not make them the butt of all jokes.

To be fair, many of our cadets in my unit are former soldiers of ours so they know how army works.

Response by LCDR Michael Pumilia made Dec 17 at 2019 11:21 AM

LCDR Michael Pumilia — Tue, 17 Dec 2019 11:21:31 -0500

The answer is NO ! Having been an NROTC middie, I can definitely answer that question. Cadets and Middies of the service academies are actually reservists, enlisted rank. They do not become officers until they graduate, pass their commissioning physical, and are sworn in as officers. Any failure in these steps means they never become officers at that time. Because they owe for their education, there is payment due. Some will have to spend time as enlisted, active service members.
Hope that clears it up.

Response by TSgt Donn Robinson made Dec 20 at 2019 9:33 PM

TSgt Donn Robinson — Fri, 20 Dec 2019 21:33:40 -0500

I look at it this way, until that Cadet puts bars on his/her shoulders, and myself as a NCO....I've earned my strips, they need to earn the respect

Response by SPC John Cummings made Dec 22 at 2019 2:19 PM

SPC John Cummings — Sun, 22 Dec 2019 14:19:42 -0500

Unless you are eligible for DD 214, you are not eligible to be considered a Veteran. In spite of pencildick written ARs. Take it as you please

Response by SFC Eddy Weezar made Dec 22 at 2019 9:06 PM

SFC Eddy Weezar — Sun, 22 Dec 2019 21:06:57 -0500

LOL!
Yea! ... Just like a wet, behind the ears butter bar out ranks a CSM!

Response by Sgt Donald Daugherty made Dec 23 at 2019 8:58 AM

Sgt Donald Daugherty — Mon, 23 Dec 2019 08:58:54 -0500

Until they earn their commission they are shit under my shoe... and I tell them that too. With one son that went to the USAF academy, and two ARMY, war hardened sons with nine war zone tours between them.... and they all agree with their ol' man.

Response by PO3 Dale Olson made Dec 23 at 2019 10:19 AM

PO3 Dale Olson — Mon, 23 Dec 2019 10:19:48 -0500

I was part of a midshipman cruise on the. USS John S. McCain DL-3. 4 middys were assigned to CIC for training. As a NCO Igot the orientation job. Long story short I was challenged to a pushup contest. I won when I asked " which arm". What they didn't kow is I had been hitting the gym for about 18 months.

Response by CPO Donald Crisp made Dec 23 at 2019 12:37 PM

CPO Donald Crisp — Mon, 23 Dec 2019 12:37:00 -0500

I see everyone talk about the show and "I'd like to see....". Let's get down to brass tacks. A cadet is a cadet! Period! They don't hold a commission and are in the field to LEARN. As a Chief Petty Officer, I was responsible for training cadets in all things Deck Department. I respected the fact they were at some point going to be officers and they needed to learn everything my department could teach them as quickly and concisely as possible. Teaching them that there was a right way, a wrong way, and the military way (Coast Guard in my case), was just as important as getting them qualified to stand watches. In any case, respect shown is respect received and in both cases, respect earned.

Response by SFC David Pope, MBA made Dec 23 at 2019 1:50 PM

SFC David Pope, MBA — Mon, 23 Dec 2019 13:50:59 -0500

As an E-7 I had a cadet believe that he was in position to give me orders. The other two cadets that observed the interaction never made that mistake, and all of them did a remarkable job cleaning the latrines! My philosophy was that if a cadet is there to learn. If they show me respect, then I will give them the same courtesy. If they come in thinking they are General Patton, then I will reduce them to Beatle Baily!

Response by SSG David Fetty made Dec 23 at 2019 6:18 PM

SSG David Fetty — Mon, 23 Dec 2019 18:18:40 -0500

Back in '76 it wasn't unusual to be short Jr Officers, and in my Plt, we had 2 E-6's. SSG Thomas, who acted as the Plt Ldr, and myself who did the Plt Sgt job. Every summer we'd get the Cadets from WP, and for some reason, they'd put them with us. Allegedly so we'd have an 'officer' but I like to believe it was so the Cadets could be around NCO's more. Normally, by the 3rd day of them being there, the Cadets from the other companies would come down in the evenings and hang with us. Made us feel good that they were actually listening. This picture has one of our Cadets in it. Someone just pointed out the other day that he's the spitting image of "Toad" from American Graffiti. Bottom center of the photo. The question of rank never came up. If it had, I'm sure we could have worked around it.

Response by SFC Bryan Livasy made Dec 23 at 2019 6:36 PM

SFC Bryan Livasy — Mon, 23 Dec 2019 18:36:03 -0500

This is not a question of whom outranks whom, A Good NCO utilizes encounters with cadets as opportunity training, mentoring and molding a Cadet towards the responsibility that he or she will shoulder and be burdened by, a Cadet will know they are facing knowledge, experience in short a seasoned leader and won't think to try out the who outranks who, in 32 years who outranks who was never a question

Just my $.02 ...and only because you asked ....and I know I didn't answer it

Haole

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2019 7:06 PM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Dec 2019 19:06:43 -0500

Actually, no. Because they haven't completed the training that is required to commission, they have no real rank. So an NCO does technically outrank them. It's why we generally laugh when they try to chew people out for not saluting them.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2019 8:17 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Dec 2019 20:17:31 -0500

Ummm what?

Response by SPC Robert Davis made Dec 24 at 2019 2:29 AM

SPC Robert Davis — Tue, 24 Dec 2019 02:29:16 -0500

Far as I'm concerned, no, I was a Spec.4, and they are just in school, they don't hold any military rank and they don't swear an oath of Commission until their schooling is finished.

Response by SSgt John Bedus made Dec 24 at 2019 3:21 PM

SSgt John Bedus — Tue, 24 Dec 2019 15:21:50 -0500

I used to conduct 12 hours trading for Air Force ROTC students, and every once in a while you'd run into one that thought he was Montgomery, most of the time it was over pretty good you just disregard what they say it happened do it your way but every once in a while there's one that just has to push it and those were the ones that went to the back of the wives sat down and did not qualify we didn't have to take it and we didn't.

Response by 1SG George Eisenbach made Dec 24 at 2019 8:41 PM

1SG George Eisenbach — Tue, 24 Dec 2019 20:41:46 -0500

I spent time in the 80's as a Senior ROTC Instructor. The only time a Cadet even played the I out rank you card was right after they received their first salute from me. Unless things changed and NCO's give up their authority, they don't outrank anyone until their Commissioned.

Response by CPT John Allen made Dec 25 at 2019 8:20 AM

CPT John Allen — Wed, 25 Dec 2019 08:20:50 -0500

As a former Cadet, eventually an O-3 JAG, any Cadet or new Officer who does not listen VERY respectfully to the Platoon Sgt., has risen only to the rank of Stupid. 3-Stripers outrank EVERYBODY.

Response by LTC Chris L. Streeter made Dec 25 at 2019 11:35 PM

LTC Chris L. Streeter — Wed, 25 Dec 2019 23:35:03 -0500

Where as they are NOT yet commissioned; there are some rules for Cadets. As an prior enlisted service member when I joined the R.O.T.C. MS-3 and MS-4; I had an equivalent of an Enlisted NCO. If I remember correctly when I a MS-3 it 'equated' to SGT/E5. When I was an MS-4; I had an equivocate of a SSG/E-6. However we treated as 'Officers'..

Response by 1stSgt Jeff Little made Dec 26 at 2019 9:12 PM

1stSgt Jeff Little — Thu, 26 Dec 2019 21:12:41 -0500

My brother and I both retired as SNCOs. Our sister spent 6 years enlisted and then 6 years commissioned. My son is an NCO. My daughter is a cadet at USAFA. God bless all who serve. Cadets should remain humble and enlisted should remain professional.

Response by PO3 Jeff Keeran made Dec 27 at 2019 12:35 PM

PO3 Jeff Keeran — Fri, 27 Dec 2019 12:35:39 -0500

I disagree.
From the perspective of pay Cadets receive tuition etc. plus about $1,000/month or $12,000/year. As you may know there may be 400,000 of E-1, 2 or 3 in the army.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2019 1:25 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Dec 2019 13:25:00 -0500

I'm a little confused as to how they could. They're not in the Army until they take the oath. Or do pointers swear in prior to commissioning? Does their time at the point count as time in service? Do they get a DD214 upon commissioning? How does that work?

Response by SFC David Dean made Dec 28 at 2019 8:27 PM

SFC David Dean — Sat, 28 Dec 2019 20:27:12 -0500

They are considered 3rd LT's in their last year. Many go into the field so to speak to experience the functioning military instead merely the classroom environs. In my 20 years I had the opportunity to interact with them in this situation on three occasions. I can say that in two of these circumstances it was an example of how to exchange reality for the class scenarios with these cadets. In the last one I can say that this individual allowed his position to inflate both his beliefs that he was significantly more important than he was. As well he had an over-inflated view of himself merely because he attended the military academy. I can give a real solid piece of advice to those pursuing this route. Successful officers remain or achieve because of their men and women; not in spite of them. You earn their respect by demonstrating your leadership and not lording over them as their superior. By that I mean your rank gives you superior position, but you are not better than your troops. As well, those in the lead position cannot demand respect from troops. you earn it!

Response by Col Jonathan Brazee made Dec 29 at 2019 7:04 AM

Col Jonathan Brazee — Sun, 29 Dec 2019 07:04:50 -0500

Technically, yes. But . . .

As a third class mid on my summer cruise on the USS Somers, if a seaman told me to clean the heads, I cleaned the heads. The entire purpose of the cruise was to experience what a junior enlisted sailor went through on a daily basis. We had a ROTC midshipman who didn't see it that way. At one point, we couldn't find him, and when he did return to us, he was in shock and moved extremely gingerly. We never asked what happened, but he didn't take that attitude anymore.

On an historical basis, a midshipman, William Sitgreaves Cox, was given a court martial for abandoning his command. From WIki:

During the battle with HMS Shannon in June 1813, Cox served in charge of a gun crew. Captain James Lawrence was wounded, and Lt. Cox took him below deck. However, all other officers had been seriously wounded or killed, so Lawrence's incapacitation left Cox, the senior non-wounded officer, the ship's commanding officer. It is not clear that he realized that he now was the acting commanding officer. While he was below the ship was boarded; though he returned and attempted to defend the vessel, he was taken prisoner. After being exchanged he was promoted to third lieutenant.

He was convicted in 1814 by court-martial of dereliction of duty and unofficer-like conduct for abandoning his watch station while under fire. He was discharged from the Navy in disgrace.

In 1952, President Truman cleared Cox's name and restored his rank.

Of course, then there was Midshipman Philip Spencer, who, in 1842, decided to mutiny and take over the USS Somers to lead the life as a pirate king. Spencer, who was the Secretary of War's son, was executed without a court martial. But that doesn't really pertain to the question at hand.

Response by SPC Jorge Torres Uquillas made Dec 29 at 2019 7:50 PM

SPC Jorge Torres Uquillas — Sun, 29 Dec 2019 19:50:34 -0500

I never saluted em, but they are funny try to run a platoon of Infantry guys

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2019 8:08 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 Dec 2019 20:08:18 -0500

In the mind of a Cadet, they outrank the CG. But when reality sets in and an old-time NCO get a hold of one of them they run crying to their tactical officer.

Response by CPT Philip Bailey made Jan 19 at 2020 10:32 AM

CPT Philip Bailey — Sun, 19 Jan 2020 10:32:37 -0500

Yes, academy cadets are on active duty just like you are and subject to the UCMJ, therefore they exist within the rank structure too (see AR-600-2 table 1-2). But academy cadets, like officers going through airborne or ranger schools, are students and subject to the correction and instruction by instructors. Remember you are training them to become good officers. Teaching respect and the importance of abiding by the regs will pay dividends for the Army. We all know that anyone that appeals to rank in a situation has lost. Teach them why it is a bad idea.

Response by SFC Jeffery Hodgkinson made Jan 29 at 2020 9:36 PM

SFC Jeffery Hodgkinson — Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:36:26 -0500

Nope..

Response by SFC Benjamin Varlese made Feb 8 at 2020 11:21 AM

SFC Benjamin Varlese — Sat, 08 Feb 2020 11:21:33 -0500

That conversation usually goes “See Spot. See Spot run. Run Spot run”. Thankfully the ROTC SNCOs have put enough fear in them it’s not usually an issue until they pin the butter bar on

Response by CDR Robert Bingham made Feb 8 at 2020 10:13 PM

CDR Robert Bingham — Sat, 08 Feb 2020 22:13:21 -0500

Of course not. Nobody’s foolish enough to think or act like that.

Response by MSG Jay Jackson made Feb 9 at 2020 9:13 PM

MSG Jay Jackson — Sun, 09 Feb 2020 21:13:37 -0500

By AR they doooo!

Response by CH (MAJ) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2020 9:32 PM

CH (MAJ) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 Feb 2020 21:32:32 -0500

Cadets have no active duty rank. Their rank only applies to the cadet corps. No, cadets do not outrank NCOs.

Response by COL Hugh Stirts made Feb 9 at 2020 11:03 PM

COL Hugh Stirts — Sun, 09 Feb 2020 23:03:39 -0500

Cadets are considered '3rd LTs'. However, if you get 'found' after becoming a 'cow' (junior) you go into the NCO ranks as an E5. I'm a grad. My classmates (class of 1969) all knew how to give our NCOs orders. It would go like this...'Sergeant, please go and do this. ' And then the NCO would say 'sir, do you really want to do this'. And then we would go 'well, what do you recommend?' And we would go 'thats a good idea sergeant first class, lets do that'

Response by 1LT Kurt Mccarthy made Feb 10 at 2020 3:27 PM

1LT Kurt Mccarthy — Mon, 10 Feb 2020 15:27:41 -0500

Yes, but as a Cadet I knew my place. I never once thought I out ranked an NCO. I also knew if I disrespected an NCO my cadre would terminate me and I'd end up not our ranking anybody. Bold statement here but this is my take. If some Cadet actually believes they truly outrank an NCO then they're most likely going to make a horrible abusive Officer when they actually become one. Just my 2 cents though, commissioned in 2012. My NCOs were inspirations and still to this day I respect those men and women who taught me how to be an officer.

Response by LCpl John Repp made Feb 11 at 2020 7:46 AM

LCpl John Repp — Tue, 11 Feb 2020 07:46:40 -0500

No, wtf?

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2020 8:50 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Feb 2020 08:50:13 -0500

Cadets in no way “outrank” NCO’s because they aren’t commissioned yet. NCO’s in ROTC will guide the Cadets with tough Love, but they know that if they make it through, these Cadets with be Commissioned Officers and then they technically outrank them. If they are smart, they will let them NCO’s guide them as 2LT’s and point them in the right direction but if they try to project that they know it all just because they completed ROTC and “boss” the NCO’s around, it will be tough for them.

Response by SGT Larry Beal made Feb 12 at 2020 1:14 PM

SGT Larry Beal — Wed, 12 Feb 2020 13:14:39 -0500

Response by SSgt Rebekah Bradfield made Feb 12 at 2020 7:06 PM

SSgt Rebekah Bradfield — Wed, 12 Feb 2020 19:06:20 -0500

I was told in BMT that an Airman Basic outranks a cadet. Cadet is a training rank and their service doesn't even count unless they are injured or die.

Response by PO1 Roger Waddle made Feb 12 at 2020 7:45 PM

PO1 Roger Waddle — Wed, 12 Feb 2020 19:45:34 -0500

Cadets outrank whaleshit , but not by much

Response by Col Dan Ketter made Feb 12 at 2020 8:23 PM

Col Dan Ketter — Wed, 12 Feb 2020 20:23:16 -0500

Why would you listed to them??? Your response should be drop and give me 20

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2020 11:58 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Feb 2020 23:58:01 -0500

Yep this is right about where that is. Technically it is a yes, but also it is a no.

Response by 1LT Douglas Marvin made Feb 14 at 2020 12:17 PM

1LT Douglas Marvin — Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:17:07 -0500

Technically, but ask any senior NCO and they will let you know.

Response by CAPT John Kittler made Feb 14 at 2020 2:14 PM

CAPT John Kittler — Fri, 14 Feb 2020 14:14:35 -0500

Basically according to law, Yes,
but it is all about respect.
Give it and you will get it.
You will also learn more about how to lead when commissioned.
There ARE cadets like that and those are the good ones. Help them learn and they will remember.
BUT
A cadet that indiscriminately pulls rank on an NCO because he can has a judgement and an aptitude for the service problem that needs to be corrected. I kinda like the LTC's method, especially if the cadet did not get it after a little chat about how things really were.

This is an age old problem manifested in different forms but it basically comes down to some officer (cadet) taking the attitude that "they have to do what I say because I am senior to them".
You will never get the best out of folks with that attitude and I have had that argument with more than one prior non-com who had been commissioned. I wouldn't tolerate it with O-1's and expected O-2's to have figured that out by then. If they showed that kind of problem, that they were just a martinet, and kept at it after counseling, they got buried.

Now, that said, be professional and salute these guys since you are a professional. If they don't salute back or get goofy about it, you will have already shown who is more professional. They will get theirs.

Response by AN Rick Bernard made Feb 14 at 2020 9:17 PM

AN Rick Bernard — Fri, 14 Feb 2020 21:17:30 -0500

only as far as if they are the acting ood or they have the conn, etc otherwise,,,, no

Response by SSgt Stephen P made Feb 15 at 2020 4:49 AM

SSgt Stephen P — Sat, 15 Feb 2020 04:49:26 -0500

Cadets cannot give lawful orders. PERIOD. They are not fully trained on what orders are lawful and what aren't. They haven't entered Activy Duty because they might not even graduate and be commissioned. Cadets DO NOT outrank NCOs. PERIOD. They have received NO OFFICIAL AUTHORITY over ANYONE and are not authorized to tell any active duty person what to do. End of story.

Response by LT Mikkel Moller made Feb 15 at 2020 9:48 AM

LT Mikkel Moller — Sat, 15 Feb 2020 09:48:47 -0500

Naval Academy Midshipmen are an actual Rank in the Navy and as such are between an Ensign and the top Enlisted rank. The other "Cadets" at the other MIlitary Academies have NO Military rank!

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2020 11:12 AM

CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:12:49 -0500

For the most part cadets pretty much know nothing and have yet to EARN a commissioned rank. Those who even think about degrading NCOs who earned their rank a long time ago, may to want to consult with some real commissioned officers who most certainly would set them straight. Directly confronting a NCO, especially a SNCO, won't end well for them.

Response by SGT Kenneth Partyka made Feb 16 at 2020 5:30 PM

SGT Kenneth Partyka — Sun, 16 Feb 2020 17:30:44 -0500

We had a "class" of cadets assigned to our unit one summer. I will admit, I had a GREAT 1SG (Top was a 'Nam Vet and earned the respect of EVERYONE. I've heard stories about him (Lonnie Bagwell - R.I.P) that would make your head spin. Anyway, Top and our CO set the cadets up for success. They informed the cadets of EXACTLY what their status was, that they were there to learn, and that meant from EVERYBODY. I remember showing a cadet how to PMCS our CUCV. Never did we have a problem with our cadets, not the NCO's, not the EMs. We treated them with respect, addressed them as "Cadet" and saluted them. They were learning to be officers and saluting them didn't bother us because they treated us with respect. They led PT in the mornings and worked with us side-by-side during the day, learning. I attribute that ALL to my CO and Top. Leadership breeds leaders. They exemplified that.

Response by CPT William Jones made Feb 16 at 2020 11:11 PM

CPT William Jones — Sun, 16 Feb 2020 23:11:50 -0500

The one thing every NCO needs to keep in mind is that a cadet is working on becoming a full fledge Officer In the near future. A smart NCO will do his best to assist in this young cadet before he in’s on his gold bar. Because paths will cross again in the future and maybe often depending on branch.

Response by SSG Russell Busicchia made Feb 17 at 2020 9:50 AM

SSG Russell Busicchia — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 09:50:30 -0500

If I recall correctly, cadets don't out rank anyone as they don't have their commission yet. This may not apply to senior cadets in regular units for training. My father was a 1SG training cadets back in the 1970's 1980's, no one ever tried to pull rank on him.

Response by SGT Doug Blanchard made Feb 20 at 2020 5:23 PM

SGT Doug Blanchard — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 17:23:21 -0500

I had the privilege of watching a ROTC cadet try this crap on my Drill when I was in AIT at Ft Sill for artillery school training. This was post Vietnam in 1976 and my Drill was a combat vet. We were on the range setting up to do a fire mission and the cadet was told to help unload crates of 3" rounds. He refused to do so. The battery captain was in the field with us when this happened. Captain Edwards ripped the cadet a new one and then chewed him up one side, down the other side, and then started on a second helping. After that that cadet did everything the Drill told him to do while we were in the field training.
Good times.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2020 8:34 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Feb 2020 08:34:12 -0500

No NCO worth his salt would have a problem with any cadet.

Response by SGT John C. made Feb 24 at 2020 12:19 AM

SGT John C. — Mon, 24 Feb 2020 00:19:35 -0500

I served with an Active Duty combat unit that was over 50% troops coming back from Vietnam, to include the XO and 1st SGT. One day I was sent to ask the 1st SGT something, and as I stepped into his office I heard him, then saw him with the Company Commander at Attention and in his face chewing him out. I backed out and stepped outside until the air had cleared and was able to go back and ask the question I was sent for originally. It had to do with the Capitan telling troops what to do, which is NOT his job, according to our 1st SGT. I don't think either of them saw me, because it was never mentioned. My Platoon SGT and 1st SGT and XO, I would have followed anywhere and done whatever they asked. They knew US Army Infantry, and nothing else mattered.

Response by SFC Steven Hetletvedt made Mar 4 at 2020 8:54 PM

SFC Steven Hetletvedt — Wed, 04 Mar 2020 20:54:39 -0500

Aren’t ROTC cadets called 1 dot, 2 dot, 3 dot & 4 dot before getting their commission. That what we called them all the time.

Response by SFC Steven Hetletvedt made Mar 4 at 2020 9:00 PM

SFC Steven Hetletvedt — Wed, 04 Mar 2020 21:00:53 -0500

Actually, no I don’t believe they put rank you. They are a student from a university. Ask them to show you the regulations. Guaranteed they will give you that stupid look. You earned your stripes you didn’t pay for them.

Response by SFC Steven Hetletvedt made Mar 4 at 2020 9:01 PM

SFC Steven Hetletvedt — Wed, 04 Mar 2020 21:01:41 -0500

In basic many many moons ago, just salute them to make them feel better. They will go away.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2020 12:14 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Mar 2020 12:14:51 -0400

They do technically outrank all Enlisted soldiers. However the reality is very different. They're officers in training so they're essentially 3rd lieutenants or fake NCOs. I did the SMP Program so served in a paygrade of E-5 and was treated like a junior nco. Anyone who lets that technicality go to their head needs to be corrected. Also do not salute them until they've actually commissioned they haven't earned it yet.

Response by SFC Donald Thomas made Mar 13 at 2020 12:19 AM

SFC Donald Thomas — Fri, 13 Mar 2020 00:19:20 -0400

Lmao.... wish one would... I'm a retired SFC

Response by SGT Stacy Moody made Mar 13 at 2020 1:03 AM

SGT Stacy Moody — Fri, 13 Mar 2020 01:03:40 -0400

Yeap they are baby officers

Response by CPO Norman Mauldin made Mar 13 at 2020 5:22 PM

CPO Norman Mauldin — Fri, 13 Mar 2020 17:22:46 -0400

Hell No, those little snot nosed milk toast mo-fo's, have not taken the oath of enlistment nor have they been commissioned. Let's start talking deployments, seniority, and time in service, game on school boy or girl.

Response by COL Bill Stoltzfus made Mar 13 at 2020 8:41 PM

COL Bill Stoltzfus — Fri, 13 Mar 2020 20:41:57 -0400

Technically, 2LTs outrank the 1SG and CSM, I always cautioned them not to let that go to their heads. I also advised them that if 1SG or CSM ever “asked” them to do something, they do go ahead and comply with the “request”.

Response by LTJG Sandra Smith made Mar 14 at 2020 1:47 PM

LTJG Sandra Smith — Sat, 14 Mar 2020 13:47:08 -0400

Well, on paper, yes, but if they actually try pulling "rank" on seasoned NCOs... Well, let's just say it never goes well for the cadets! Best advice my former officer parents gave me, when I was sworn in with a commission, was to never piss off the NCOs, they can make or break your career!

Response by MAJ James Woods made Mar 14 at 2020 3:00 PM

MAJ James Woods — Sat, 14 Mar 2020 15:00:37 -0400

No they don’t. A cadet isn’t a commissioned officer until they are sworn in. Having dealt with a share of CTLT cadets assigned to a unit it was made clear that the troops will treat them as an officer (they were nicknamed 3LTs) and have the authority that cones with the position they occupy. That isn’t the same as saying they out rank an NCO. Myself was a 1LT that served as the acting BN S3 for a month. The XO told every staff CPT I was the S3 and they were to respect my authority in the position even though I didn’t outrank them.
Bottomline: respect the authority of the cadet for the position they’re given but they need to remember they are cadets not officers. Cadets don’t have UCMJ authority over anyone. Of course those that come from a military academy vs. ROTC will have a differing opinion. I’m ROTC myself.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2020 3:12 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 14 Mar 2020 15:12:56 -0400

Technically, only when everyone else is dead....the cadets we are exposed to in peace-time haven't received a commission yet, nor are they O-1's.....BUT....common respect should be afforded to them and from them, but egos should not be included when every other officer or warrant is dead...that's why they get mentioned in AR 600-20

Response by SSG Harry Outcalt made Mar 14 at 2020 10:52 PM

SSG Harry Outcalt — Sat, 14 Mar 2020 22:52:52 -0400

The only NCO ranks , cadets out rank is a Marine Lance Corporal, and all other Corporals in the U.S. Military. Cadets hold the equivalent rank of Sgt, E-5 , regardless of their cadet rank... this has not changed in a lot of year's, due to the placement of Military Academy's in the Military structure. Why Military Cadre hold and maintain there respective ranks while serving as instructor's and or staff at a military academy...

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2020 12:46 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Mar 2020 00:46:15 -0400

Rank and Respect. I internalized a great maxim, as an officer long before I became an officer: If I have to tell someone I "outrank you", there's a different issue. It boils down to, is the higher rank not worthy of respect OR is the subordinate being insubordinate?

I've seen both scenarios, neither are good. Best thing to do: lead by example, we are all subordinate and higher in different contexts. Be an excellent leader, be an excellent subordinate.

It works out well.

Lead, follow, or STFU.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2020 8:42 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Mar 2020 20:42:56 -0400

Negative..Th st are E4s

Response by 1SG Joseph Dartey made Mar 15 at 2020 8:51 PM

1SG Joseph Dartey — Sun, 15 Mar 2020 20:51:22 -0400

When I enlisted in 1974, my Drill Sergeant drilled it into out heads this saying, "WHEN IN DOUBT, WHIP IT OUT!" and he didn't mean from our pants either. Read AR 600-20. It will spell it out for you.

Response by 1SG Brian Adams made Mar 16 at 2020 8:33 AM

1SG Brian Adams — Mon, 16 Mar 2020 08:33:01 -0400

Depends on what year they are in...generally speaking a Senior cadet does outrank an NCO as odd as that may sound.

Response by CPT Karen Nichols McAbee made Mar 16 at 2020 12:49 PM

CPT Karen Nichols McAbee — Mon, 16 Mar 2020 12:49:53 -0400

Way back when, I was an SMP Cadet (Simultaneous Membership Program - ROTC and USAR) - when I was on drill weekends on post, I would get saluted a lot. I found it somewhat embarrassing, since I wasn't commissioned yet, but I returned the salute and never said anything. That was my time to learn and absorb as much knowledge as I could from my unit NCOs before I was officially an officer!

Response by 1LT Vance Titus made Mar 16 at 2020 1:11 PM

1LT Vance Titus — Mon, 16 Mar 2020 13:11:16 -0400

I guess I really don't understand the question. Yes, I know some cadets think they are God's gift to the military but it probably doesn't take them too long once on active duty to get real. I was commissioned through the Army ROTC program. Prior to commissioning I was discharged as an E-3, which is what I would have gone into the Army as had I not successfully completed my degree program. No, an E-3 does not outrank non-commissioned officers.

Response by SSG Jared Crawford made Mar 16 at 2020 1:15 PM

SSG Jared Crawford — Mon, 16 Mar 2020 13:15:04 -0400

Thankfully all the cadets that came through understood their role. I were there to learn. Even when I went to west point to train cadets, they understood I was there to train them. Only 2-3 cadets were infantry, this pog cadet acted like he knew land nav from boy scouts. Obviously, I trained him properly and he realized he was an idiot

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Mar 16 at 2020 3:33 PM

1SG Dennis Hicks — Mon, 16 Mar 2020 15:33:32 -0400

Its best to let Actually commissioned Officer deal with these situations unless you want to have some fun then have the Cadet walk into the BN CSM's office and explain that reasoning to him/her. I have served with Cadets while on AD and in the Reserves. I treated them like officers so they could gets some experience. I rarely had to go off on one because usually a LT/CPT or higher would be nearby and snatch the wayward cadet before they lost a large portion of their 4th POC. I felt sorry for them because the Officers would have a come to Jesus talk with them that used less vulgarity but scared them just the same.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2020 4:01 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Mar 2020 16:01:52 -0400

Cadet is not a rank in the US military. They are put in positions of authority for mentoring and learning their job, eg we had West Point Cadets at Basic training, and we had to obey them, but their authority was delegated via the drill sergeant. I was a cadet for two years before I decided to enlist. I was a "cadidiot" at Airborne School, which was considered one step below a private. In 2 years of ROTC, the officers and NCOs impressed on us that we held no rank or authority until we received our commissions.

Response by LTC Trent Klug made Mar 17 at 2020 1:01 AM

LTC Trent Klug — Tue, 17 Mar 2020 01:01:07 -0400

You'll have to excuse the following comment, but Wuhan virus mania has worn me down.

If I read one more 'do cadets outrank...' or 'I've applied to OCS and...' or 'my unit want to (insert action here), can the commander...?' post I will climb the nearest flagpole...nekkid and hang a pair of skivvies from the dang thing.

Response by Cadet SGT Charles (CJ) Hector made Mar 17 at 2020 11:48 AM

Cadet SGT Charles (CJ) Hector — Tue, 17 Mar 2020 11:48:36 -0400

As a former cadet, I can tell you that yes, we technically outrank everyone short of Warrant. However, pushing that issue is much akin to a butterbar having it out with an SGM or CSM, will most likely NOT go well for the cadet. Usually ends with the Old Man/Woman "counseling" said cadet. I was smart enough myself never to cross that line, but I saw others of my classmates do so and it was not pretty. My advice? Be respectful but explain to them where they stand and if they don't like it, to go ask the Old Man/Woman to explain it to them. They might just take your word for it at that point, lol!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2020 7:53 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Mar 2020 19:53:04 -0400

It was my understanding that it was determined by the commander.

We had Cadets that worked with the privates and we had others that would ride out equal to 2nd LTS

Response by PO1 Richard Nyberg made Mar 30 at 2020 1:15 AM

PO1 Richard Nyberg — Mon, 30 Mar 2020 01:15:02 -0400

Yea Cadets are fun to watch, I met a West Point cadet after I came back from Vietnam in 1968. We had to teach them how to find the Motor Pool.

Response by CPT John Kane made Apr 11 at 2020 5:12 PM

CPT John Kane — Sat, 11 Apr 2020 17:12:23 -0400

Best advice I ever got was from my platoon sergeant on my first assignment as a platoon leader in a Cav Troop (A Troop 2/4 U S Cavalry ) He basically told me that I might be able to earn the respect of the platoon only if I demonstrated the proper leadership qualities and LISTENED to him. I was smart and listened to him and learned more about effective leadership from SFC Arnold than I did in IOBC or any other time in my life. This memory of "the conversation" in the TOE room so many years ago is still vivid. So do cadets out rank all enlisted....ya' they do but if the cadet is smart they won't be that jackass that demeans the rank and file.

Response by CPT Edward Barr made Apr 18 at 2020 4:38 PM

CPT Edward Barr — Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:38:41 -0400

SGM Erik Marquez sounds like he has the answer, and appears to know what he is talking about.
However, and I have nothing to back up my comment: From memory, I seem to recall there was/is a regulation referring to the rank being more honorary, as rank is not recognized while in training. The rank doesn't become official, until after training is complete.
Again, that is something I seem to recall. Not anything I have any backing on.

Response by Sgt Crusty Buck made Apr 19 at 2020 4:25 AM

Sgt Crusty Buck — Sun, 19 Apr 2020 04:25:42 -0400

Usually goes something like this, that’s nice kid id teach you how to (fill in the blank) but that’s what your waste of space instructor is paid to do, and we walk away with everyone’s jaw agape because indirectly just set the tone for each one of them little future sirs and ma’am’s, and usually leave whomever led the field trip knowing they were in for a ass chewing for letting their, students sorry cadets out of line.

Now When I’m privy to a wise guy cadet I laugh and hop in the midlife crisis mobile after walking away cause civilian life pays way better and serves up none of the bs

Response by MAJ Jeffrey Johnson made Apr 19 at 2020 10:24 PM

MAJ Jeffrey Johnson — Sun, 19 Apr 2020 22:24:01 -0400

A fourth year cadet who has completed all wartime commissioning requirements, is an officer without rank and is addressed as did it maham. I did so in 1977 and was given the courtesy at the 101st Airbornes 3-187 where I had previously been a sergeant.

Response by Sgt Bruce Mac Donald made Apr 20 at 2020 12:26 AM

Sgt Bruce Mac Donald — Mon, 20 Apr 2020 00:26:40 -0400

Cadets are trainees they do not outrank enlisted personnel during their training ,I.e. NCO's

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2020 12:32 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Apr 2020 00:32:52 -0400

I was in AFROTC while in college before I eventually enlisted (Long story short, left ROTC to graduate early and tried to go to OTS off the street, didn’t get picked up). From what I remember, we were all the equivalent of E5s in the reserves but at the same time being students had no weight behind our “rank”. We had a few ROTC-nazis but none of them ever tried to throw weight when we were interacting with active duty personnel, which was good.

Response by Sgt Lowell Tackett made Apr 20 at 2020 10:23 AM

Sgt Lowell Tackett — Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:23:12 -0400

My thoughts on this come from an assumption (and you know how those go...) on my part. Have cadets/midshipmen been "sworn to" the UCMJ? If so, then their status on the totem pole seems secure; if not, then they are not part of the hierarchy. That's my oversimplified version; true? false?

Response by HA Jace Gallagher made Apr 20 at 2020 10:09 PM

HA Jace Gallagher — Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:09:33 -0400

Had one try that with me when I was an E3 in the Navy. I just laughed at him, grabbed my master chief and watched the show while Master Chief chewed out cadet and told them they aint shit until they actually serve.

Response by SPC David Giffen made Apr 22 at 2020 6:44 AM

SPC David Giffen — Wed, 22 Apr 2020 06:44:43 -0400

I had to witness the s**t show of one my Civil Air Patrol cadets (same level as Jr. ROTC) try to pull that stunt to a MSgt. I had to pull him to the side and explain that his "officers" rank mean jack to someone in the military, just like my CAP captain's rank did.

Response by Sgt Donald Daugherty made Apr 22 at 2020 9:19 AM

Sgt Donald Daugherty — Wed, 22 Apr 2020 09:19:25 -0400

They are students and hold only pretend academy rank.... once commissioned they have rank.
So no... they do not outrank an enlisted member.

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2020 10:26 AM

Col Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Apr 2020 10:26:21 -0400

Sr ROTC (college) Cadets are contracted into the Inactive Reserve as E-3s or E-1s based on varying criteria during their college ROTC years - they are trainees, have no authority over enlisted members and NEVER out-rank any NCO until the day they are commissioned. JROTC cadets are high school students and trainees and have ZERO authority over ANY enlisted member. (I am an ROTC commander).

Response by SGT Robert Schaefer made Apr 22 at 2020 5:28 PM

SGT Robert Schaefer — Wed, 22 Apr 2020 17:28:30 -0400

I wish I was still in and a cadet tries to tell me what to do. I would look at him and say ok sure and walk away.

Response by SGT Robert Schaefer made Apr 22 at 2020 5:30 PM

SGT Robert Schaefer — Wed, 22 Apr 2020 17:30:20 -0400

I wish I was still in and have a cadet tell me this is how he did things a West Point. My response would be ok sure and walk away.

Response by SPC John Rehfeld made Apr 22 at 2020 7:30 PM

SPC John Rehfeld — Wed, 22 Apr 2020 19:30:41 -0400

While they technically do, I was never able to treat them as anything other than privates without any practical experience. When the socks I'm wearing have spent more time in combat than a cadet has spent in actual training, they're not getting a sir or ma'am out of me.

Response by WO1 Ricardo Eva made Apr 23 at 2020 12:27 PM

WO1 Ricardo Eva — Thu, 23 Apr 2020 12:27:49 -0400

Like CW3 Dan MacKey we never had any problems whatsoever with cadets. Most, if not all, were truly receptive to what we had to offer and easy going to a "T"

Response by MAJ Lyle F. Padilla made Apr 23 at 2020 2:21 PM

MAJ Lyle F. Padilla — Thu, 23 Apr 2020 14:21:53 -0400

Not necessarily, as far as Army National Guard units are concerned.

Members in the Simultaneous Membership Program, who are both in Army ROTC and the Army National Guard, are carried on the Guard unit rosters as E-5s and paid for Guard UTAs and Annual Training at that pay grade unless they had attained a higher NCO rank at the time they enrolled in ROTC. Advanced cadets holding cadet officer rank are extended limited officer privileges and courtesies and sometimes fill officer duty positions. But they're paid as E-5s, or at the highest NCO rank they attained if prior service, until they are commissioned.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2020 4:27 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:27:46 -0400

I never met any cadets while serving (9/66-6/70). I've enjoyed reading the issues about saluting and taking/giving orders to officers by a high ranking enlisted. When I was in basic training at Amarillo AFB, they taught us to always salute at all officers. I followed that protocol when I was assigned to my first base after Admin Tech School at Mactan AB in the Southern Philippines. Upon arrival, I was always saluting at the officers. After a short while, I learned that no one (enlisted) saluted at the officers (and the officers never expected one) - we just acknowledged them by their rank (i.e. Capt. Smith, etc.). Well the shit hit the fan when we got a new Wing Commander (midway through my tour) and he mandated that all enlisted salute the officers. It was a big change to everyone's daily routine when walking around the base to both the enlisted personnel and the officers with a rank below Colonel (full bird).

For the rest of my AF career (only one term), I observed the local protocol and never worried about it. I currently know a few former (retired) Army Generals and we now greet each other by our first names (or nicknames). There are times when I salute them before extending my handshake (before the coronavirus) or just offer a handshake - they're all comfortable with both. Times have changed due to Covid-19 so now an elbow bump will seem to be the norm or just a "wave" from 6 feet away due to social distancing - maybe I'll restart giving them a salute. It will be all good for a laugh.

Response by SSG Quentin Keizer made Apr 23 at 2020 7:51 PM

SSG Quentin Keizer — Thu, 23 Apr 2020 19:51:46 -0400

I was stationed at West Point for 7 yrs as a NCO the entire time. I was a Military Policeman there. A Cadet at Military Academy has no rank. Only a Cadet Rank. They do not outrank any Soldier in the Military. To include a Private. They can not give orders to anyone other then another Cadet they outrank. Under Article 7 of the UCMJ. It clearly give authority of position and rank. Only Commissioned Officers, Warrant Officers, Non Commissioned Officers, and On Duty Military Police Officers of any rank, can give orders. It also covers Retired Military. Nowhere does Article 7 give a Cadet any aer anyone.uthority ov

Response by SSG Quentin Keizer made Apr 23 at 2020 7:57 PM

SSG Quentin Keizer — Thu, 23 Apr 2020 19:57:22 -0400

I was stationed at West Point for a total of seven years in the 1980's and 90's. I was a NOC the entire time. I was in the Military Police Company. Cadets have no rank recognized by the Active Military, the Reserves, or the National Guard. Therefore have no authority over any soldier. They only have authority over other cadet ranks that they outrank. Article 7 of the USMJ identifies those with authority. Commissioned Officers, Warrant Officers, NCO's, and On duty Military Police of any rank. It also covers Retirees. Nowhere in the USMJ is the Cadet rank given any authority. So unless something changed in the last 20 years. The answer is no. A Cadet has no authority over any NCO or any Soldier of any Branch of Service.

Response by SSG J F Texas made Apr 23 at 2020 9:26 PM

SSG J F Texas — Thu, 23 Apr 2020 21:26:41 -0400

Unless that Cadet really knows his/her shit he/she needs to follow rather than lead. That should have been part of their briefing before getting to the unit. Reality is they are future officers and they may remember you as that asshole Sgt or Ssgt that busted their balls.

Response by Col Jonathan Brazee made Apr 23 at 2020 10:48 PM

Col Jonathan Brazee — Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:48:07 -0400

Yes, cadets and midshipmen outrank all enlisted personnel. There was a famous case where a midshipman, William Sitgreaves Cox, (still a midshipman but Acting Lieutenant) during the War of 1812 was court-martialed for taking the wounded CO (James Lawrence) belowdecks when that made him technically in command of the ship. President Truman finally cleared his name some 140 years later and restored his rank.

Response by SGT Andrew Ornelas made Apr 24 at 2020 9:00 AM

SGT Andrew Ornelas — Fri, 24 Apr 2020 09:00:20 -0400

Cadets, are not commissioned officers... they do not receive their "authority" from the president... They can not issue a direct order... Some have noticable difficulty lacing their boots... That having been said, they're supposed to receive all the military courtesies due a commissioned officer

Response by SFC Dan Watkins made Apr 24 at 2020 11:45 AM

SFC Dan Watkins — Fri, 24 Apr 2020 11:45:28 -0400

Respect for cadets is a courtesy! Until they are commissioned a senior cadet only outranks other lessor cadets!

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2020 10:56 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Apr 2020 22:56:58 -0400

I'm sorry, but what type of cadet are we talking about here? Because technically they don't out rank anyone if they don't have an actual commission. Unless for some reason they are in ROTC while on active duty, which most of the time they are technically an E-5 or above dependent on what rank they were when they started.

Response by TSgt Alejandro Cuervo made Apr 25 at 2020 11:17 AM

TSgt Alejandro Cuervo — Sat, 25 Apr 2020 11:17:57 -0400

This has always been an entertaining outcome with cadets. The last time I reviewed the U.S. Military rank insignia chart, cadets didn't show. They're like any other college or boarding school student within our great country. There is a caveat to this, the Army has a regulation AR 600-20 that places these cadets above their NCO's during their senior year on "Cadet Troop Leader Training” or CTLT.

As once an aircrewman I can testify to these situations and how quickly they were squashed. One of the best descriptions of military rank that I have read is that it's a "badge of leadership" or level of it. It is the best interpretation I have read, people learn as they assume leadership positions as they move up the chain of command.

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made Apr 26 at 2020 6:45 PM

SSgt Daniel d'Errico — Sun, 26 Apr 2020 18:45:43 -0400

After having a hard time recovering from laughing so hard for 20 minutes, here is my take on this question. No. Nope. Not a chance in hell. Cadets are just learning how life in the military. Cadets aren't active duty members yet. They are not commissioned officers yet. So in all actual reality, no cadet out ranks any NCO or enlisted man/woman.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2020 10:01 PM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Apr 2020 22:01:09 -0400

No, they have protocol precedence over NCOs, but do not “outrank” them. Cadets have no official rank. They are contracted at an enlisted grade (ROTC usually A1C, and USAFA SSgt).

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2020 11:07 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Apr 2020 23:07:11 -0400

Only in the mind of the cadet. Deal with them, be polite, be respectful, but do not let them interfere with the Troops.

Response by SFC Howard Holmes made Apr 26 at 2020 11:35 PM

SFC Howard Holmes — Sun, 26 Apr 2020 23:35:01 -0400

No they do not, and if later on in your career you fall under one of them you're probably in trouble, because that would show me they are power hungry. Hopefully before the graduate, or while they are 'butter bars', they fall under a company commander or some other officers who knock them off of their high horse and brings them back to reality.

Response by SPC Mark Stevens made Apr 27 at 2020 9:51 AM

SPC Mark Stevens — Mon, 27 Apr 2020 09:51:25 -0400

Yes, and a good non-com will always have a way to straighten it out with a Cadet or new junior grade officer without overstepping the line. It was part of my "unofficial" NCO training.

Response by PO1 Jay Sinyard made Apr 27 at 2020 11:46 AM

PO1 Jay Sinyard — Mon, 27 Apr 2020 11:46:47 -0400

The only thing I immediately did when assigned Middies was to immediately take them to the ships store to get rid of those gawd awful blue rimmed Dixie cups or ball cap they had. I then told them it welcome to the crew and now we have some work to go do. They still wore those belt buckles other than that not any major problems.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2020 3:05 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 27 Apr 2020 15:05:48 -0400

No they don't, but it's usually a good rule of thumb to treat each other respectfully anyway because A. a NCO is usually more experienced then the cadet and has the rank/position above them and B. the cadet will eventually become an officer then outrank said NCO. Cadet falls into a paygrade below E1 (essentially an unofficial E0, still under UCMJ but no authority or guarantees to retain), they do however hold cadet ranks such as Cadet Sgt etc. (which only means they hold authority over other cadets E0-1 E0-2 etc etc.)

Response by PVT Chris Osolin made Apr 28 at 2020 1:11 AM

PVT Chris Osolin — Tue, 28 Apr 2020 01:11:01 -0400

Technically according to AR 600-20, they do in the absence of a commander (due to death or other), they are in precedence above NCOs to take command. Aside from that, yes, as others have said, it can get entertaining.
Lastly, if they don’t get the boot, they will be your future leaders. I’ve always treated them with dignity and respect for their rank as a cadet and address them accordingly. I’ve never ran into a power hungry cadet. I’ve ran into more power hungry butter bars than I have cadets.

Response by SFC William Linnell made Apr 29 at 2020 8:35 AM

SFC William Linnell — Wed, 29 Apr 2020 08:35:32 -0400

Oh Yes. What fun. As a career tanker I have had the privilege of having one cadet join the platoon for 2 weeks when I was stationed in Germany back in 85'. I was a SPC then and we were doing "command" maintenance. He politely comes to me and says follow him. We move to the side of my tank where he begins to tell me that I need to pound the end connectors flush against the track blocks. I look at the track then look at him back to the track back to him then tell him that on the other side of the tank is the hull sponson box where he will find the 10 lb sledge hammer and start knocking them out. I left him standing there as I went back to working on my tank. Nothing was said about it.

Response by SA Michael Moore made Apr 30 at 2020 7:35 AM

SA Michael Moore — Thu, 30 Apr 2020 07:35:39 -0400

Many years ago (80's) there was a young man from our midwestern town who went to West Point. He was a great HS football player, not so good academically, but he got into West Point on a special program to recruit athletes . His first year he dropped football so he could focus on his studies. He was allowed to stay. He did well as a Cadet and his junior year summer found him in a NATO country as a trainee Assistant Platoon Leader reporting to a 1st Lt who was one of the Company's Platoon Leaders. I recall the platoon was involved with missiles (SAM?) . In any event, there was an unexpected rapid mobilization and the platoon leader was stateside (not there.) This young man took charge of the platoon and did all the things he should have done to prepare to launch missles. (It would have been like him to seek advice from the Platoon Sgt. ) He didn't ask, he just did it. He later received a very significant medal of some sort for his actions which had allowed his company to accomplish their mission. A quiet young man and a good soldier.

Response by MSgt George Fillgrove made May 24 at 2020 7:54 PM

MSgt George Fillgrove — Sun, 24 May 2020 19:54:16 -0400

In their dreams, maybe.

Officially no. Not even a contact cadet.

Of course, I was known to advance them a degree of respect by addressing the ones who rated it as "Sir" or "Mam," but the reality is that they are not yet commissioned officers...and that reality is best illustrated by the ranks on their discharges if something happened before they are commissioned.

All commissioned officers hold a permanent E-5 rank. Don't believe me, under ROPA, rifted officers would be discharged at their highest officer rank and re-enlisted as E-5s. They would finish their careers and then retire at the highest officer rank held.

As I remember, cadets who formally complete between one and two years of training were usually discharged as E-3s. Cadets at the two year point were discharged as E-4s.

Response by GySgt John Hudson made May 24 at 2020 8:47 PM

GySgt John Hudson — Sun, 24 May 2020 20:47:54 -0400

If you count them as officers, yes. If you count them as students, No.. According to a manual that I saw, the cadet receives a salary of a Sgt's pay, which would rate them as an NCO until graduation. I had an experience with some Middies on a summer cruise. The Captain of the ship said they were junior officers while aboard for our cruise. We accorded them so. I told them that they were here to learn and if they could not see that fact, then they were to get out of my spaces (classified) and bug some other personage. (not really the words I used) When the complaint went down, the CO, XO, N2, and Master Chief all agreed that it was to be that way. I had a hell of a lot of respect for that ships command team after that. Now that said, you have to take all cadets with a grain of salt. I am not familiar with what the Army does here, but if you are teaching them, you are in command. I know what I would say to them... Your still beach bunnies compared to me and my fellow instructors. We are here to instruct you. Don't like that, ring the bell and leave. I don't want you in the field leading troops if you don't know how to lead properly.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made May 24 at 2020 10:17 PM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Sun, 24 May 2020 22:17:16 -0400

I will chalk this up to Army shenanigans. Midshipmen who try this are promptly shot down and put in their place. Nothing over the top or crazy but they aren’t officers yet and need to understand that

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2020 7:26 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 May 2020 19:26:45 -0400

I am a sergant in army Reserve officer training corps at Fairmont height

Response by SSG Stanley Biggs made May 26 at 2020 4:17 AM

SSG Stanley Biggs — Tue, 26 May 2020 04:17:04 -0400

Yes, they do, back in the late 1970`s, the NCOes called them 'spots', as when they showed up to train with Regular Army units, their insignias were circular, brass discs, which indicated 'cadets', not 'commissioned' officers yet, but to be treated as such !!! The best way to handle the situation was to set up a course of 'hip pocket' training for 'land navigation, thorough a minefield' !!! While stressing to the 'cadets', that the mines were simulated, while handing them the map and compass, and directing them to take charge of the platoon, as you 'retired to the rear, emphasizing that, in 'real life', after they were 'commissioned', there could come a time, when the minefields might be real, and their job was to 'lead the way' !!! Usually, was a 'wake up' moment, as they wanted to know what to look for, and you had to explain that they looked at the map and read the map, relying on the 'engineer information' to be 'accurate', as this was a 'friendly' minefield, and the compass would give them the proper headings, and where to change directions, as they would be 'zigzagging' through the minefields, using 'safety lanes', until they cleared the 'friendly minefields', which is when you informed them, that they would be entering 'enemy minefields', once clear of the known 'friendly' mines !!! Most had never thought that far ahead in their training, especially if they were 'entry level' OCS in an ROTC program, where the instructors had not pushed much training outside the classroom !!! "See you in the field" !!!

Response by SFC Cynthia Eyer made May 26 at 2020 5:55 PM

SFC Cynthia Eyer — Tue, 26 May 2020 17:55:24 -0400

No, they do not. Cadets are paid E5 pay and hold no rank, other than cadet. They have not completed the course that affords them their rank, therefore, have no rank to be outed.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cichelli made May 27 at 2020 12:47 PM

CPT Lawrence Cichelli — Wed, 27 May 2020 12:47:40 -0400

Well yes they do out rank NCOs. Legally the have the status of warrant officers (WO1). Yes enlisted personnel are to salute then and call them either Cadet or sir or ma'am depending on the Cadet's sex. Funny thing though Cadets are not subject to UCMJ, weird right? I can laugh at this because I was on both sides of the fence. In my young college days an ROTC cadet. At least I had enough sense to listen to NCOs because at that time they knew better and had a lot more experience. when I became a MSG, I never got grief from Cadets because they realized I had 25 or more years experience and some know I "been there done that" in their shoes. IMO, senior NCOs help train Cadets to become better officers. It worked for me to mentor Cadets.

Response by SFC Cheryl McElroy US ARMY (RET) made May 27 at 2020 5:59 PM

SFC Cheryl McElroy US ARMY (RET) — Wed, 27 May 2020 17:59:49 -0400

No, they don't outrank non-commissioned officers. They're cadets. They're in training. Once they graduate, they have a rank.

Response by LT Stewart Herrick made May 28 at 2020 10:28 AM

LT Stewart Herrick — Thu, 28 May 2020 10:28:32 -0400

In point of fact, in the field, a shavetail Lt. does not outrank a seasoned Platoon Sgt.

Response by 2d Lt Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2020 4:20 PM

2d Lt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 May 2020 16:20:06 -0400

I was a cadet at USAFA and I remember being told we were below E-1s.

Response by PO2 John Driskill made May 28 at 2020 5:57 PM

PO2 John Driskill — Thu, 28 May 2020 17:57:22 -0400

I remember back in the '70's at NAS Pensacola when a freshly commissioned Ensign came back to give the Marine Drill Sgt. a bunch of crap for giving him a hard time in flight school training. It didn't go well for the Ensign after the higher ups at the base got finished with him. He got to fly a desk afterwards.

Response by SGT Milton Pridemore made May 29 at 2020 7:06 PM

SGT Milton Pridemore — Fri, 29 May 2020 19:06:01 -0400

Was never taught the cadet ranks in basic and had a lot of them come through the Artillery units I was in...They were treated as privates..No salutes...No authority to tell me anything...I marched them to and from the barracks...they were not called Sir. They were there to learn what they didnt know simply put. The cadets that showed a lot of interest in my job and everything Artillery in general I tried to cram everything I possibly could into teaching them. Spent a lot of late hours I didnt have to after the regular work day answering question and demonstrating stuff the didnt quite pick up the day before. Last time they saw me was by the when they were getting on the bus to leave...I saluted and just said Sir! I got the snappiest return salutes and the biggest shit eatin grins from those guys. I sure miss teaching!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2020 8:45 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 30 May 2020 08:45:55 -0400

I don't remember my drill sergeant teaching me cadet rank. Besides that, if a cadet is talking about rank his green suitor should be mentoring him/her immediately! They should not be concerned with rank at this point that stuff will come in time. That cadet is already headed down the wrong path and will loose any trust from his subordinates upon being assigned. He/she should be concerned with absorbing as much knowledge and insight as they can at this point. Why are they worrying about that anyway? Sounds like they are itching to throw their rank around as soon as they get commissioned. Smh

Response by 1LT Chuck Collins made May 31 at 2020 11:21 AM

1LT Chuck Collins — Sun, 31 May 2020 11:21:57 -0400

As the son of a Senior Navy NCO and the nephew of Senior Army NCO who were both career military men and WWII veterans, as a Army ROTC cadet, I fully knew who had the real rank and I observed it. It's called respect and it is given when earned and earned when given.

Response by 1LT John Witt made May 31 at 2020 1:31 PM

1LT John Witt — Sun, 31 May 2020 13:31:58 -0400

I have been there before. At age 21 I was a 2nd Lt. in the US Army. Many of the Sergeants that reported to me were twice my age and years of experience in the Army. In less than 2 years was promoted to 1st Lt and as time went on, the relationship with the Sergeants go much better and I believe we developed respect for each other. I even had my Master Sergeant invite me over to dinner with his family and I brought my date who ended up being my wife, now of 56 years. Those were great times and I would never trade my time in the Army for anything else. It was good for me and made me successful over the long term--retired as a Partner at the World's largest international CPA firm as a consulting partner.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2020 10:17 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 31 May 2020 22:17:27 -0400

I say No! Those snot-nosed little punks have not received their commission yet.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 1 at 2020 11:16 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Jun 2020 11:16:45 -0400

yeah..i was already a 8 years E6 when i was a candidate. LOL. i had a lot of enlisted tried to outsmart me. it was funny when they realized that i wasent just a candidate and had more time in than they did.

Response by LTC John Wilson made Jun 1 at 2020 12:41 PM

LTC John Wilson — Mon, 01 Jun 2020 12:41:21 -0400

Glad for the regulatory reference.

NCOs: Yes the Cadet outranks you. But that is about as effective as a 2LT outranking a CSM or 1SG. The LT may try an lock the Sergeant Major's heels and the E-9 might play along, but it will not end well for the LT.

If you have a cadet swinging his pip around, WE -- the Commissioned Officer and the NCO have a teachable moment we should never let slip. If he's SMP, we REALLY have a problem.

Grant forebearance to the your you Cadet. Help him out by following a directive given and then coach them about respect for the rank versus the leader. If they are plug earred, hard headed, and cannot summon some humility, then you'll need some top cover from a commissiined officer.

The best lessons I learned as a Cadet and junior officer were from the NCOs that cared enough to say something.

Response by PO1 Steven Siepp made Jun 1 at 2020 3:02 PM

PO1 Steven Siepp — Mon, 01 Jun 2020 15:02:08 -0400

as an E-5 onboard a reserve Ship, I enjoyed handing the young Middies a paint brush and introduced them to a fan room. With respect of course

Response by Col Stewart Holmes made Jun 1 at 2020 3:55 PM

Col Stewart Holmes — Mon, 01 Jun 2020 15:55:58 -0400

No, cadets do not out rank NCO's. I am an 1984 grad of the US Air Force Academy and retired Colonel (O-6). As a captain, I was an instructor at the Air Force Academy and told cadets that they do not out rank NCO's but if an NCO's salutes, return the salute and let then know that no one should salute a cadet. Now I am referring to Service Academy cadets that are members of the Active Duty Force. The Air Force Academy now has NCO's assigned to each squadron so no Air Force Academy cadet should be confused on this issue. If it is a ROTC cadet, tell them to pound sand.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 21 at 2020 1:41 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Jun 2020 01:41:36 -0400

no they do not out rank Any NCO in the army until they commission, I am an instructor of cadets and I'm a SSG and most of there instructors coming up through college are also NCOs

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 21 at 2020 1:43 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Jun 2020 01:43:30 -0400

I instruct cadets and they will not out rank any NCO till they commission, and most of the cadet programs Instructors are NCOs

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 24 at 2020 10:59 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Jun 2020 10:59:49 -0400

Treat em like a junior E5. They deserve the respect, but are not above an ass-chewing. Never had to deal with a cadet that didn't know his place.

Response by TSgt Gerald Wilson made Jun 24 at 2020 10:13 PM

TSgt Gerald Wilson — Wed, 24 Jun 2020 22:13:01 -0400

Cadets are cocooned larvae having no functional significance apart from the promise of their destiny - to be lovely butterflies (maybe moths). Ergo, nobody cares what their technical "rank" is.
"Sergeant, I outrank every NCO in the Army."
"Got it. Next slide."

Response by SSG Melvin Green made Jun 25 at 2020 9:34 AM

SSG Melvin Green — Thu, 25 Jun 2020 09:34:29 -0400

They are STUDENTS and will not obtain the RANK OF 2ND UNTIL GRADUATION......

Response by PV2 Thomas Libby made Jun 25 at 2020 9:23 PM

PV2 Thomas Libby — Thu, 25 Jun 2020 21:23:18 -0400

Tell him to go to the mess hall and eat his shit on a shingle.
Nam Vet

Response by COL John Washington made Jun 26 at 2020 5:48 PM

COL John Washington — Fri, 26 Jun 2020 17:48:30 -0400

You should not allow this to turn into some contest of will or authority. Both a young CDT, SGT and LT has a lot to learn about leading and management. I suggest you approach it from the perspective of teaching or instilling the right guidance and direction to help develop each into the officer and/or NCO that we need to lead our service for generations to come.
Officially cadet is not a rank. It has no pay grade or place on any service rank structure. It is merely use to train organization, structure, responsibility, etc. to those who otherwise may not know. It is the platform by which we begin to have them understand and exercise these traits. Much like boot camp.

Response by SSgt Dave Brown made Jun 28 at 2020 4:31 PM

SSgt Dave Brown — Sun, 28 Jun 2020 16:31:23 -0400

Bullshit! They #1 are not of age to serve in the military
#2 have never went to bootcamp. They are pre bootcamp. Like pre school.
#3 see #1

Response by SP5 Michael Ingenito made Jun 29 at 2020 2:46 PM

SP5 Michael Ingenito — Mon, 29 Jun 2020 14:46:36 -0400

I can never forget the time we had a bunch of cadets during summer training,how they were sleeping in a squad tent(The old OD green canvas field tents of a by gone era. while my detachment might be lucky to catch a wink while on a training excercise patrol. well time to teach a lesson to future "Butter Bars" don't fcuk with the Sgt. Major ! we tied both entrances shut, one of our troops shimmied out on a branch, we threw up some smoke grenades & flash bangs to our buddy who popped them @ threw them down the stove pipe. talk about one hell of a clusterfuck that went on inside from our rude awakening. one of the best times of my military career .Airborne All the Way

Response by Sgt Robert Norman made Jul 2 at 2020 12:30 PM

Sgt Robert Norman — Thu, 02 Jul 2020 12:30:24 -0400

They do not. They are only 3rd Lieutenants. I did some training with some Cadets back in the 80's. They were very quickly put in their place.

Response by Col Randy Hagan made Jul 9 at 2020 8:27 PM

Col Randy Hagan — Thu, 09 Jul 2020 20:27:25 -0400

Until and unless a cadet is actually commissioned, there is no way they can "outrank" an NCO.

My experience is that NCOs and Sr NCOs handle these young cadets with professional expertise, courtesy and diplomacy, only calling in an officer when the cadet steps too far out of line. At that time, the officer is obligated to help "set the cadet straight" as to where authority actually, technically and regulatorily resides. Spoiler Alert: it is NOT with the cadet (irrespective of his/her institution -- Academy, OTS/OCS or ROTC).

Response by Sgt Peter McDonald made Jul 20 at 2020 1:39 PM

Sgt Peter McDonald — Mon, 20 Jul 2020 13:39:36 -0400

If memory serves me well, although they are not commissioned officers, they are often granted the status of a high ranking NCO and do outrank you. However their authority is limited and falls under the scrutiny of the officer they are assigned to during their internship.

Now did I follow my advice.....ehhh.

Back when I was active, I dealt with two midshipmen who wanted me to salute them. I refused and told them that they weren't commissioned officers and in accordance with military customs and traditions, I was not obligated. Needless to say, my OIC and I had lengthy discussion in which I did refer to them as gentlemen or sir as an acknowledgement that they were future officers, but more importantly, out of respect for my OIC who was ready to throttle me and my stubbornness.

Response by LTC Aaron Johnston made Jul 25 at 2020 7:01 PM

LTC Aaron Johnston — Sat, 25 Jul 2020 19:01:36 -0400

Hell no. They aren't even in the food chain yet. Once they commission they count until then they are lemmings playing army. IMO they are less important than E-1s until they commission. At least the private is actually in the army and not playing army while in college. So not no salute or honorific until they commission.
(I'm a mustang E6 w/ transition to officer retired as LTC)

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2020 7:27 PM

CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jul 2020 19:27:19 -0400

No. They outrank no one.

Response by Cpl Craig Rizzo made Jul 27 at 2020 12:01 AM

Cpl Craig Rizzo — Mon, 27 Jul 2020 00:01:08 -0400

Charlie Co. 1st Bn 8th Marines.
My first time in Iraq (2003), I was on float (USS Iwo Jima LHD-7).
After we got back on ship from Iraq we floated around some more. During that time we got a bunch of Midshipmen (can't remember if they were Academy or ROTC) who were doing their Midshipmen Cruise. Almost all were going for commissions in the Navy. There was one girl who was going for a commission in the Marine Corps, but she was the only Marine hopeful.
They wore the standard Navy Coveralls. Now enlisted have white embroidered writing on their name tapes whereas officers had gold. Enlisted and Officers also wore different belt buckles.
Now, it's been 17 years, but I recall that between the name tapes and belt buckles... for one they wore the enlisted style and the other officer style. I just can't remember if they wore officer name tapes and enlisted belt buckles or vice versa. They also wore gold anchor emblems on their collars instead of rank. The girl who was a Marine hopeful wore EGAs on her collar.
So, they were mostly pretty cool. We never called them sir or ma'am and they never expected us to do so. They didn't appear to look down on us and we didn't treat them like boots. They generally appeared to look at the whole experience with enthusiasm and generally wanted to learn all they could... with one exception.
There was one of the Navy hopefuls who seemed to believe that he had the same status as a commissioned officer. He even tried to pull that on a couple guys in my platoon. Even tried to order them to call him "sir". Nobody would do it. He even tried to tell guys that he was "going to be an officer" so they had to call him "sir". Even my squad leader thought it was funny and eventually told us that none of them had a date of commission and thus were not commissioned officers. Some guys would literally just smirk at the guy, say "yeah, ok", and walk away. I'm sure he complained about it. But nothing came down about it. You're talking about a midshipmen who had no commissioned officer rank trying to tell a buncha guys who just got back on ship after combat in Iraq.
At one point the skipper of the Iwo wanted the various Marine Corps units in the MEU to give a familiarization/orientation on our equipment to the midshipmen. The skipper wanted the midshipmen to have exposure to the Green side, not just the Blue side. Again, only one of the midshipmen was going for a Marine commission.
So a couple guys from my platoon were included in giving them some talks about the 0311 side. All of the midshipmen loved it. Were totally fascinated and wanted to learn. If they had questions, they asked.
All but one. Our good friend the arrogant douche bag.
My buddy was trying to show him how a Peq-2 worked. He had him look through NVGs while my buddy pointed the IR laser at the deck. The douche bag apparently could not see it. Everyone else could. My buddy waved the IR laser around at the deck in the spot the midshipman douche was looking at and even frustratingly asked "do you see it now?". Did it a couple times. The douche had an attitude the whole time and said he couldn't see it.
Generally speaking I'd like to think that those midshipmen all made good (or at least half decent officers). Even if they were dumb ones, I got the impression that they were more than open to suggestions from their Chiefs/SNCOs, Petty Officers/NCO, and even their non rates and generally looked at them with respect. Except that one guy. You know he was that arrogant douche moron that everyone hated.

Response by Sgt William Margeson made Jul 27 at 2020 4:08 PM

Sgt William Margeson — Mon, 27 Jul 2020 16:08:58 -0400

In 1983, my NG Unit went to West Point, to instruct in Helicopter Operations. We were told to address Cadets, as Cadet + Name. We were not to call them sir, or saluted as they were not officers. they in turn were to address us by rank and name. There were no conflicts, as the cadets were made aware of this. Todays young cadets, being of a more recent generation, may feel they are privaleged to be accepted a officers to be. These instructions came from an O-6 on Staff bat the Point.

Response by SFC Carlos Cherry made Jul 27 at 2020 8:27 PM

SFC Carlos Cherry — Mon, 27 Jul 2020 20:27:00 -0400

I disagree that Cadet's "outrank" NCO's. I've been retired for a little while, but I recall the rank structure goes from E1 - E9; WO1 - CW2-CW5; O1 - O10. Where is cadet in rank structure? UCMJ doesn't mention anything about disrespect towards Cadets. It states disrespect towards commissioned officers. I think that certain military customs are afforded Cadets and any decent Senior NCO understands they a responsibility to prepare them for their future roles.

Response by CMSgt John Reeves made Jul 28 at 2020 9:32 AM

CMSgt John Reeves — Tue, 28 Jul 2020 09:32:29 -0400

As a retired CMSgt I always took the 2LTs under my wing. But, I always told them I was a heartbeat away. Reminded them to continue learning from those around them. You know it worked.

Response by PFC Dave Campbell made Jul 28 at 2020 11:23 AM

PFC Dave Campbell — Tue, 28 Jul 2020 11:23:52 -0400

in 2004 my battalion had just returned from iraq (literally 3 weeks before) and i was walking to the chow hall. I was a specialist and this cadet stopped me and was livid that i didn't salute him. He insisted that i "go get your platoon sergeant". I smiled and went into the chow hall, interrupted my platoon sergeant's lunch with the battalion cdr and told him loudly that (so the bn cdr could hear) that a cadet insisted that i come get him and the reason why. The battalion commander almost choked on his food laughing and my platoon sergeant excused himself with the most evil wolfish grin i've ever seen.
By the end of the day, once my platoon sergeant had finished with the cadet, my battalion cdr had finished with the cadet and the commander's designated punisher had finished with the cadet, i almost felt sorry for the kid.

Response by PO3 Kevin DeLong made Jul 28 at 2020 12:28 PM

PO3 Kevin DeLong — Tue, 28 Jul 2020 12:28:59 -0400

Cadets do not out rank any one until the are given a regular commission in the military. They are collage boys and girls with school rank and not military rank. When they come on ship during summer break any order they gave aboard ship was ignored by the crew unless a regular officer was behind them and nodded.

Response by SGT Lawrence Gubernath made Jul 28 at 2020 6:29 PM

SGT Lawrence Gubernath — Tue, 28 Jul 2020 18:29:52 -0400

Ain’t no way kid I worked for these stripes

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 28 at 2020 10:19 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Jul 2020 22:19:24 -0400

2008 my company, went down to be cadre and op-for for the Westpoint Cadets. I was a PFC and was very amused to see these future officers standing at Parade Rest for a PFC.

Response by SPC Nazareth Berlanga made Jul 29 at 2020 12:53 PM

SPC Nazareth Berlanga — Wed, 29 Jul 2020 12:53:45 -0400

Yup. I believe it's an obsolete hierarchical structure.

Response by MSG Michael Tribble made Jul 29 at 2020 3:10 PM

MSG Michael Tribble — Wed, 29 Jul 2020 15:10:11 -0400

Yes. Technically all officers out rank all enlisted. Cadets are considered Officers when attached to units, however they are still in training and are placed in units to shadow and learn from other officers as well as seasoned NCO’s. They do not yet posses the experience or the indoctrination of combat, extensive training or expertise to run a damn thing. It is the responsibility of the NCO along with Officers of the Unit to help mold and develop this young future Officer. It would do one well to take this responsibility seriously as this officer may very well be in a position sooner or later to make Career altering and even life or death decisions for those entrusted to him or her. So do they really out rank anyone? I say that Soldiers follow Leaders and the cadet isn’t there yet. In fact cadets have not learned to properly use his or her influence much less lead at this point in their young careers. So to out rank someone on paper and yet not have any real authority over them enforces my point that they are there to learn from the officers and non commissioned officers that are really in charge. One last point. By regulation the commanding officers have an obligation and a duty to use their authority to punish anyone under their command who challenges an NCO’s Authority. That is also why a captain can’t go and disrespect a CSM or another Senior NCO and get away with it. The experience and level of responsibility gap is also to wide for this to be accepted. NCOs are always where the rubber meets the road. Officers Know this and rely heavily on NCOs. This is why both need mutual respect for the others position. I say Know your role!!! Officers are leaders by virtue of the commission handed down from the president. NCOs are Leaders by virtue of the authority given by officers and therefore our authority is protected by officers against other officers and especially CADETS!!!

Response by 1SG Mitchell Smith made Jul 29 at 2020 4:12 PM

1SG Mitchell Smith — Wed, 29 Jul 2020 16:12:48 -0400

I would usually direct them to the CO or the BC for further guidance. The person that's made tracks can tell them what land mines are ahead.

Response by SFC Joe Ortega made Jul 29 at 2020 4:58 PM

SFC Joe Ortega — Wed, 29 Jul 2020 16:58:43 -0400

No cadet is not a rank aand grey are nnot commissioned yet. We given the courtesy to play lieutenant bu he is not a lieutenant. You dont salute cadets!

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2020 9:02 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 Jul 2020 09:02:43 -0400

Well, a contracted Air Force ROTC (and academy) cadet carries the rank of E2/3 so it is a resounding NO to this question.

Response by SSG Michael Davis made Jul 30 at 2020 2:26 PM

SSG Michael Davis — Thu, 30 Jul 2020 14:26:43 -0400

AR 600-20 gives you an answer, but in my opinion it's really not explained well. I'm assuming you're referring to West Point / USMA cadets and not ROTC.

A good analogy is Ranger, Airborne and Air Assault training. If you are in a trainee status and others are training you, rank does not matter and the person doing the training out ranks you.

Anyone who tries to pull rank in a collaborative situation is frankly a jackass. Military service (as long as you're trying to get something done) is a TEAM SPORT. No one on a SpecOps or Ranger team pulls rank except when a serious decision needs to be made and someone has to hold the bag of responsibility, or doctrine requires officers of a certain rank to make the call.

Certain regulations and parts of military doctrine (and law in some cases) change the dynamic.

I'm an amateur military historian so take this for what you will but I think these rules date back to the Civil War when cadets were released from West Point early to serve as brevet commanders of field units.

My understanding is from reading Gods and Angels / The Killer Angels / The Last Full Measure trilogy which are works of fiction, and I've never verified that they were correct. For what that's worth.

Response by SP5 D Mac made Jul 30 at 2020 3:20 PM

SP5 D Mac — Thu, 30 Jul 2020 15:20:29 -0400

no cadets don't outrank NCO's or for that matter any enlisted soldier for they don't have a commission yet. It is implied that they do because they are getting training and experience being an officer

Response by CPL Thomas Stewart made Jul 30 at 2020 5:08 PM

CPL Thomas Stewart — Thu, 30 Jul 2020 17:08:38 -0400

I don't know about cadets, but I did see a 2nd LT tell a CSM to do police call. I also saw a 2nd LT cry that day.

Response by PO1 Todd B. made Jul 31 at 2020 2:21 PM

PO1 Todd B. — Fri, 31 Jul 2020 14:21:31 -0400

LOL this is hilarious. They don't outrank ANYONE because they are NOT active military members. They are cadets in school and they are not considered active military forces until they graduate and sworn in.

BTW there is one caveat to this, For purposes of active military they hold NO rank, NO power, and no authority at all unless they have been sworn in and given a commission for duty, whether for special circumstance or because of war. Only then would they be granted authority of rank... and even then it would most likely be limited.

I would love to know who came up with this idea that a cadet is somehow a ranked US Military active duty member? LOL Some cadet tries to pull that shit with me, he better be ready to be called a dumbfuck and laughed at.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2020 10:00 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 02 Aug 2020 10:00:15 -0400

Cadets don’t outrank NCOs

Response by CPT Hugh Rhodes made Aug 2 at 2020 10:24 AM

CPT Hugh Rhodes — Sun, 02 Aug 2020 10:24:07 -0400

This is pretty much a Strawman debate. I was a cadet and a young 2nd Lt at one point and I never went around pulling rank on senior NCOs. I have never heard stories of any of my West Point classmates doing so either. Pretty much career suicide having your First Sergeant and Platoon Sergeant against you as a new 2nd Lt and we knew this.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2020 12:11 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 02 Aug 2020 12:11:46 -0400

Couldn’t beat so you decided to join them I see ;-)

Response by Col Frederick Alley made Aug 2 at 2020 8:27 PM

Col Frederick Alley — Sun, 02 Aug 2020 20:27:54 -0400

I never had a cadet in 30 years ever assume to out rank anyone. They are in training and have no authority to direct or supervise any enlisted member. Once commissioned that all changes.

Response by SFC Michael W. made Aug 3 at 2020 1:46 PM

SFC Michael W. — Mon, 03 Aug 2020 13:46:58 -0400

According to AR 600-20 Dated 06Nov14 they do...hope this helps.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2020 1:24 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Aug 2020 13:24:39 -0400

Being prior service we had a different out look on it but when i was in ROTC we were told we were to be treated as Officers while at drill. None of us could bring ourselves to act like that. We kept our mouths shut and learned from everyone. We also weren't ever put into "real leadership" but still. We were also in a Combat Arms unit so we knew we should just shut up and observe.

Response by SSgt Kathy Prest made Aug 27 at 2020 10:56 PM

SSgt Kathy Prest — Thu, 27 Aug 2020 22:56:49 -0400

I will take a CMSgt over an officer anyday!

Response by MSG Richard Robinson made Aug 28 at 2020 4:32 AM

MSG Richard Robinson — Fri, 28 Aug 2020 04:32:59 -0400

A cadet is not a Soldier. They are still civilians until they graduate and receive their commission.

Response by MAJ Jack Newton made Aug 28 at 2020 2:35 PM

MAJ Jack Newton — Fri, 28 Aug 2020 14:35:36 -0400

I enjoyed Senior ROTC summer camp 1965 at Fort Bragg ,NC. We all had a sense of respect for senior gray haired NCOs . Had plenty of requested and offered advice from them. I, having grown up? in my Southern home, sired every older person regardless of rank.
Advice on maneuvers in winter time: get killed right away and go crawl into sleeping bag to play dead.
Advice in summer maneuvers : stay out of the ditches regardless of how hot your feet are. These little brooks are 2 feet wide by 8 feet deep drainage ditches compliments of Corps of Engineers. Felt top of buddies helmet and pulled him out by pack straps.
When offered a ride back from sick bay in the field, try not to sit like a general officer. It confuses the cadre officers. I had to return a lot of salutes and some explaining to do.

Response by MSgt Daniel Day made Aug 28 at 2020 5:05 PM

MSgt Daniel Day — Fri, 28 Aug 2020 17:05:19 -0400

Rank and Authority are the two main questions here, I believe. As far as rank, according to the UCMJ, a Cadet/Midshipman is subject to the same articals as any Officer. "Article 133 (10 U.S.C. 933)—Conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman a. Text of statute. Any commissioned officer, cadet, or midshipman who is convicted of conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman shall be punished as a court-martial may direct."
As far as the authority to give a lawful order, I think I would grin and bear it, then let those who have legal and lawful authority over me take care of the arrogant ($%$^) twits. Just saying, walking away really does not hurt.

Response by SPC Tito Castillo made Aug 28 at 2020 9:19 PM

SPC Tito Castillo — Fri, 28 Aug 2020 21:19:14 -0400

A cadet has not yet received their commission and therefore are no more higher rank than an NCO than a private is.

Response by SPC Tito Castillo made Aug 28 at 2020 9:21 PM

SPC Tito Castillo — Fri, 28 Aug 2020 21:21:17 -0400

A cadet has not yet received their commission and therefore can't outrank an NCO anymore than a Private E-1 can.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2020 2:16 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2020 14:16:42 -0400

First question: Is “Cadet” a rank? Second: Is “WOC” a rank? Third: do a “Cadet” “outrank” a NCO or WO? Remember this word as per Regulation; COMISSIONED. So, are “Cadets” commisioned? Are “WOCS” commisioned? The answer is NO. So, do I, as a Chief Warrant Officer HAVE to salute a WOC or OC? The answer is NO. Do I, as a Chief Warrant Officer have to salute a 2nd Lt? YES. He IS a commisioned officer and by hierarchy I do have to salute him, even if he/shemcould be my son/daughter....

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2020 2:26 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Aug 2020 14:26:50 -0400

First question: Is CO or WOC a rank? Second: Do I as a Chief Warrant Officer, have to salute a OC? Answer: NO. Regulation says that you render salute to COMMISIONED officers following the ARMY hierarchy. So, “Candidates” officers or warrants are NOT COMISSIONED, therefore you do not HAVE to salute them. Third question: do I as a Chief Warrant Officer have to salute a 2Lt? YES. Even if he/she could be my son/daughter. The term that best describes your answer is: RESPECT. Saluting a “Cadet” either officer or warrant, is mainly based on respect. The person chose that path and is going thru a transformation that eventually, will place him/her hierarchly speaking, above you. Remember: you salute the RANK. Some people even gained the RESPECT... As a LEADER, thats the most important thing for a NCO, WO or O.

Response by MSG Tony Hughes made Aug 30 at 2020 9:32 AM

MSG Tony Hughes — Sun, 30 Aug 2020 09:32:30 -0400

No, cadets do not outrank any nco. They are not a non commissioned, warrant or commissioned officer. They are simply students at respective academy. When they graduate and get their bars pinned on then they will outrank the nco

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2020 7:23 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Aug 2020 19:23:53 -0400

No....no and nooooooooo !

Response by MAJ Jeff Houston made Aug 31 at 2020 4:55 PM

MAJ Jeff Houston — Mon, 31 Aug 2020 16:55:59 -0400

I taught Army ROTC from 2010-2012 and never once did I observe any cadet try to pull rank on the cadre NCOs. I think the cadet senior leadership did an outstanding job in instilling a sense of respect for NCOs, as we did in the cadre. Proud to have been a Toledo Rocket for those 2 years. Go Rockets!

Response by CPT Cavett Ishihara made Sep 1 at 2020 10:04 PM

CPT Cavett Ishihara — Tue, 01 Sep 2020 22:04:26 -0400

A cadet is a student of a potential career. Officer Basic will weed out some trash, but the the cadet will have a lot to learn as a 2LT when the SSG and SFC are cadre at officer basic. Heaven forbid a dirtbag get to Airborne School and not respect those cadre. Junior Officers need quality NCO staff. If you know of college ROTC instructors teaching anything different...good luck when you are in charge of a company. Most Army regs read, "commander responsibility" or "first O-6 in the chain of command." Officers are there to get the tools for the mission executed by the Enlisted.

Response by PO3 Terry Miller made Sep 2 at 2020 4:42 PM

PO3 Terry Miller — Wed, 02 Sep 2020 16:42:42 -0400

I looked it up many years ago in Navy Regs and it said saluting Midshipmen is a courtesy but not a requirement. Walking across the grinder in San Diego in 1968 as an E-3, I approached a Midshipman dressing down a fireman apprentice for not saluting. He finished and dismissed the poor kid before I reached him. I didn't like the way he belittled the young man so I didn't salute him either.
"Hey, don't you salute officers when you meet them?"
"Officers? Yes." I kept walking. He didn't say anything else.

Response by SPC Steven Nihipali made Sep 3 at 2020 3:26 PM

SPC Steven Nihipali — Thu, 03 Sep 2020 15:26:15 -0400

respond to them as you would anyone with dignity and respect as a human... once they cross that barrier, fuck em up... if they try to pull anything other than their learning status, they're done fucked up

Response by CW2 Byron McDaniel made Sep 4 at 2020 4:02 PM

CW2 Byron McDaniel — Fri, 04 Sep 2020 16:02:57 -0400

I served 1964-1987 and never heard of such a thing.
Cadets in U.S. Military Academies and college students in ROTC are “College Students.” Upon graduation they are “Commissioned” and at that point they are U.S. Military Officers.

Response by SP5 ArizonaPoet . made Sep 7 at 2020 12:37 AM

SP5 ArizonaPoet . — Mon, 07 Sep 2020 00:37:31 -0400

I don't know about this.... I told a 2LT to fornicate himself as a Spec 5.
He dropped the issue when someone told him I was the relief redeployment clerk
at Regiment. The time was 1970 and was easy for a person to "volunteer" for the VietNam, just tick off the redeployment clerk.

Response by CWO4 John Frank made Sep 7 at 2020 11:36 AM

CWO4 John Frank — Mon, 07 Sep 2020 11:36:08 -0400

Technically, I suppose they do. I've seen the references to DOD and branch-specific directives. But as a former ROTC/NROTC scholarship student, who saw the light, enlisted, and was promoted to CWO4 prior to retirement in 1996, I told my own sons: The salute is rendered and returned with respect. That little gold chinstrap on an officer's cap rates a salute, but the person wearing it has to earn the salute. A student has enough yet to learn to be making an issue out of who outranks whom in the grand scheme. And always respect the leadership and experience of the senior NCO, for he/she is the backbone of any military service.

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made Sep 9 at 2020 4:14 PM

SSgt Daniel d'Errico — Wed, 09 Sep 2020 16:14:18 -0400

No, they don't. Cadets are still learning the ins and outs of military life. They only out rank on g her cadets.

Response by SFC Garry Merritt made Sep 13 at 2020 8:06 PM

SFC Garry Merritt — Sun, 13 Sep 2020 20:06:56 -0400

Hell No. It's a good way to get his/her ate.

Response by PFC Larry Cunningham made Sep 18 at 2020 7:39 AM

PFC Larry Cunningham — Fri, 18 Sep 2020 07:39:36 -0400

I have seen new 2nd LTS come into my orderly room and throw their weight around. Once Top got done with them their butts looked like hamburger. And it was always fun to see them panicking when I told them that Top had their leave form on HIS desk.

Response by Kerry Keel made Sep 26 at 2020 3:36 PM

Kerry Keel — Sat, 26 Sep 2020 15:36:35 -0400

The best thing any cadet, or junior officer can do, is to keep their mouths shut, ears open, and LISTEN to what these NCO's have to say. After being commissioned, they might be "in charge", but that only means they are the ones first on the list for why it went wrong, before anyone else gets questioned. The WISE cadet and Junior officer will see these men and women as treasure troves of information and experience that they need to REALLY listen to. Some do, and a lot are foolish.

Response by 1st Lt Karl Kratt made Sep 26 at 2020 5:25 PM

1st Lt Karl Kratt — Sat, 26 Sep 2020 17:25:04 -0400

No, they don't. ROTC Cadets are given the Paygrade of E-5, but are not given the rank or authority of an E-5 and are considered civilians.

Response by SP5 Derick Johnsohne made Sep 27 at 2020 11:57 PM

SP5 Derick Johnsohne — Sun, 27 Sep 2020 23:57:50 -0400

Response by SMSgt Bob Wilson made Sep 28 at 2020 12:01 AM

SMSgt Bob Wilson — Mon, 28 Sep 2020 00:01:12 -0400

Is this a serious question? The answer is NO! When the "wet behind the ears", "runny nose" kid becomes a Lieutenant [O-1], the rules change. The CADET is a trainee, who if smart, will listen to the guy wearing the stripes; if not everyone is going to have problems with him.

Response by SPC Ray D. made Sep 28 at 2020 8:41 AM

SPC Ray D. — Mon, 28 Sep 2020 08:41:53 -0400

I went through the US Military Preparatory School - prep school for West Point, in 1973-74. One of the first things they told us as new preppies was, due to the nature of our rank insignia, we would likely be saluted by enlisted personnel. Though, technically, we didn’t out rank them we should simply return their salute as a mater of courtesy. No reason to stop and correct them, unless they asked what the different insignia meant. As I recall, we had what looked like lieutenant’s bars, but black with silver borders. We also received a brief history of the hand salute and it’s meanings through history.

Response by SGT Doug Blanchard made Sep 28 at 2020 6:01 PM

SGT Doug Blanchard — Mon, 28 Sep 2020 18:01:40 -0400

Way back when I was a lowly Pc-2 in AIT, We had a platoon of ROTC Cadets going thru party school out at Ft Sill with us. Long story short, one of them decided to mouth off to the Top. The Top proceeded to rip him a new one. Never heard another word out of any of the cadets after that. I forgot to mention the Top had down two tours of duty in country in Vietnam. Have a feeling the Unit C.O. Was even scared of him.

Response by SSG Alfred Woods made Oct 5 at 2020 11:13 AM

SSG Alfred Woods — Mon, 05 Oct 2020 11:13:09 -0400

NO!!
Cadets are in a training phase of a career they may choose to follow. A cadet, is not a sworn commissioned officer. However, Cadets, when working along side an NCO, is still training and given the same attention, the NCO would offer to a sworn officer. Giving the Cadet this type of attention, allows for him\her to be molded towards the attitudes the military expects of its officers. Should a Cadet show or appears to be non-conforming, the NCO reports these behaviors to the commanding officer of the unit and allow for the commander to deal with the Cadet. At no time, should an NCO discipline a Cadet and at no time, should a Cadet try to discipline an NCO or the subordinate of that NCO, since he/she is not a sworn member of the U.S. Military,

Response by CWO3 Warren Gaudreau made Oct 5 at 2020 1:36 PM

CWO3 Warren Gaudreau — Mon, 05 Oct 2020 13:36:50 -0400

Not enlisted or commissioned-no rank!

Response by SSG Jeremy Clark made Oct 5 at 2020 9:07 PM

SSG Jeremy Clark — Mon, 05 Oct 2020 21:07:36 -0400

While technically cadets outrank all enlisted personnel (AR 600–20 Army Command Policy) and service academy cadets are authorized to exercise command ahead of NCOs in the absence of all other officers, cadets do not rate salutes except amongst themselves. Although I have to admit that when I was a PSG if a cadet tried to tell me what to do I'd have hurt his or her feelings.

Response by PO3 Dale Olson made Oct 6 at 2020 9:25 PM

PO3 Dale Olson — Tue, 06 Oct 2020 21:25:32 -0400

I was psrt of Midi cruise while I was on the USS John S. McCain DL-3. 4 of these snot nose kids made me a bet on doing pushups. Me a lowly 3rd class Radarman. They started with 20. I accepted and they went first. My turn... I asked which arm? They about crapped their pants. What they didn't know was I had been lifting weights for about 3 years. I won the bet and they called Mr for the rest of the cruise.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2020 10:58 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 06 Oct 2020 22:58:31 -0400

Cadet = no commission. and no rank.
They are not "in" the military unless they commission or enlist and therefore by convention can't "outrank" anyone outside of their organization. They have a place in the succession of command, by default and reg, but that is about it.
A lesson well learned, and best learned early, is to allow the NCOs in your world to get the work done. Give them the authority to complete the mission, and the credit when it's done. I may have shiny rank, but I will ask a senior NCO for an opinion at the drop of a hat!

Response by MAJ Mark Bolton made Oct 7 at 2020 10:25 AM

MAJ Mark Bolton — Wed, 07 Oct 2020 10:25:01 -0400

In my personal and professional opinion (20-year Major, retired), it’s all about HUMILITY. I’ve served as a prior enlisted (E4-E5), and it was pretty easy for me to distinguish between the good (respectful, professional, courteous), bad (opposite of good!) and ugly (self-explanatory:) and give the appropriate level of respect “earned” for the rank. Lastly, I served as an ROTC APMS for 4 years prior to retirement and always told our Cadets to respect the rank (Private-President) and NEVER forget where you came from. Your success will take off from there!!! Thanks and God bless America and our great service members

Response by FN Charlie Spivey made Oct 7 at 2020 10:44 AM

FN Charlie Spivey — Wed, 07 Oct 2020 10:44:39 -0400

The Coast Guard got a three masted Barque from the German navy after WWII as a spoil of war ( The Coast Guard Eagle ). The German Navy used it as a Training ship and now it is moored at the Academy and used as a training ship. Every summer there is a Cadet Cruise and the Eagle is accompanied by at least one ship. The Cadets spend time on both and when they are aboard ship, they may as well be E-2 / E-3. They stand the watches and do the scud work. As far as we were concerned, they may well have been Sea Scouts. OCS is another thing, but they don't get out in the field as they have plenty of time out there anyway for the most part. We got a newly minted Butter bar out of the academy, while we were deployed in Vietnam. On the way home, we were coming up on the date line. Well this Butter bar and two or three others weren't aboard when we crossed it going the other way, and hadn't been intiated, soooooo, the intiation was on. The two or three enlisted went along with the drill and got Initiated. The Butter bar kicked up such a fuss that the CO stopped it. Thought it was beneath him. There were several other officers of a higher rank them him got it when we were on the way over and they didn't kick up a fuss. Got back home and the Butter bar got orders. Hopefully, Isolated Duty at the LORAN station outside of Thule, Greenland, or in the desert at Matratan, Libya.

Response by PVT John Williams made Oct 7 at 2020 12:42 PM

PVT John Williams — Wed, 07 Oct 2020 12:42:12 -0400

Yep. Great entertainment.

Response by CW3 Joseph Lawrence made Oct 7 at 2020 5:01 PM

CW3 Joseph Lawrence — Wed, 07 Oct 2020 17:01:33 -0400

I think the same can be said up junior officers. I once told a junior officer I was not moving a room full of furniture to get him some grease pencils. Years later when he returned as our battalion commander the first thing he said to me before shaking my hand was. "Do you have any grease pencils." Some people forget, some remember. Use your words with caution.

Response by PO2 Chad Kilburn made Oct 7 at 2020 11:14 PM

PO2 Chad Kilburn — Wed, 07 Oct 2020 23:14:36 -0400

NO! As an NCO in the Coast Guard a cadet has not been commissithey hold a rank of E-2 or E-3k questions but never authoritatively.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2020 6:43 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Oct 2020 18:43:15 -0400

I hear a lot of answers but where is the regulation to support this

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made Oct 15 at 2020 3:54 PM

MAJ Jim Woods — Thu, 15 Oct 2020 15:54:13 -0400

Not that I can recall!

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2020 6:49 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 25 Oct 2020 06:49:13 -0400

Technically yes, but no. Enlisted personnel are supposed to treat cadets as future leaders, and with as much respect as they give you. If you have some rouge cadets that think they know everything, square them away, mentor them, and let them understand the roles of the NCOs. If you’re a cadet and going into a unit with that mentality, it’s a recipe for disaster.

Response by CDR Tom Davy made Oct 25 at 2020 7:03 PM

CDR Tom Davy — Sun, 25 Oct 2020 19:03:32 -0400

Mustang here. A smart junior officer will listen to an experienced NCO/Chief. A good NCO/Chief will advise the junior officer in private, unless lived are immediately on line.

Response by SPC Clark Cleghorn made Nov 5 at 2020 6:46 AM

SPC Clark Cleghorn — Thu, 05 Nov 2020 06:46:46 -0500

I spent a summer training ROTC Cadets when I was stationed at FT Riley. Quite a diversity in those people. We were told what we could soon see for ourselves; only about 10% of them would actually go on to be commissioned. Now and then i would have to deal with some smart ass hot dog, and I would have to put him in his place, especially if he was way wrong. I told more than one, "You'll make a fine General someday!!" That amused the CPT in charge of the training group I was assigned to.

Response by LTC Martin Glynn made Nov 6 at 2020 9:07 AM

LTC Martin Glynn — Fri, 06 Nov 2020 09:07:20 -0500

There’s all kinds of different cadets, and in my experience the only ones who ever decided to “go toe-to-toe with an NCO” for whatever reason were all prior service types who part of the Green to Gold program. The non-prior service cadets were usually just in awe of everything the NCOs had done in their careers, and of everything the NCOs taught them.

Response by CPO James Johnson made Nov 6 at 2020 12:38 PM

CPO James Johnson — Fri, 06 Nov 2020 12:38:06 -0500

Simply put, Cadets are "college" students, have not been commissioned as officers. They remain as civilians and their only authority is within the Academy organizations. As a Navy Chief Petty Officer it was my responsibility to instill respect as well as show respect to these future officers and leaders.

Response by 1SG Wayne Harvin made Nov 6 at 2020 2:32 PM

1SG Wayne Harvin — Fri, 06 Nov 2020 14:32:49 -0500

I'm afraid not

Response by MSgt Ross Baxter made Nov 6 at 2020 4:31 PM

MSgt Ross Baxter — Fri, 06 Nov 2020 16:31:10 -0500

Not in the Marine Corps, a RECRUIT is a RECRUIT, regardless of who or where.
Any maggot thinking he could “pull rank”, found itself a smoldering pile of burnt sh|t for brains for even assuming that suicidal thought!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2020 7:35 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 07 Nov 2020 07:35:03 -0500

Thans a big FUCK NO, some people say they “just need to “practice their salute” and i say to the LT next to him FUCK NO,HE IS NOT COMMISSIONED. end of story. No dilema.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2020 11:42 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 07 Nov 2020 11:42:05 -0500

I'm honestly not sure what "the book" says about this, but I have never seen a cadet try to pull rank on anybody.

It's fun to hear and tell stories about cadets/green lieutenants who try to push their weight around, and then abruptly learn just how much senior NCOs outrank them in real life. Those stories survive because they satisfy our senses of justice and karma when we hear about the overprivileged, arrogant pup get put in his/her place by the experienced, old-school war dogs who have actually paid their dues - but in the real world, I've never seen such a take-down happen. I'm certain those situations have definitely occurred (and to AWESOME comedic effect) but they don't happen as often as the stories people like to tell about them.

I know my personal experience won't necessarily reflect everyone else's - everyone's mileage varies on stuff like this. But, speaking solely for myself, every cadet and boot lieutenant I've ever worked with has demonstrated a humble understanding that they had a lot to learn, and they were slightly terrified the first few times they were actually put in charge of something. (Just like most enlisted folks.)

Response by SSG Michael Taylor made Nov 7 at 2020 4:27 PM

SSG Michael Taylor — Sat, 07 Nov 2020 16:27:45 -0500

2LTs also outrank the Sergeant Major of the Army. Try correcting a SMA on wearing socks outside of AR 670-1 while going for a run at West Point and see what happens.

If a Cadet is giving your shit, show your stripes.

Response by George Avery made Nov 7 at 2020 9:35 PM

George Avery — Sat, 07 Nov 2020 21:35:07 -0500

As a cadet, I always behaved towards detachment Cadre NCOs as if I were a raw recruit, which of course I nearly was. My Dad was a 28 year retired AF and Army NCO whose last posting was as 1SGT for a large SAC maintenance squadron. I learned a few lessons watching butterbars fail due to their own unawareness of their ignorance - and I was a LOT less ignorant than some of the know-it all upperclassmen when I was an underclassman (like one who insisted an early 1980s F-15B could deliver nuclear air-to-ground ordnance, despite a lack of a proper targeting system or Permissive Action Linkages). I figured even the SRA clerk had a few years on active duty to figure out the way the real world worked, and knew that in the AF, the real leadership at the squadron level in non-flying units was the senior NCOs, since most officers were spare pilots parked in a billet to keep them on active duty as combat replacements if needed rather than trained specialists in things like aircraft maintenance or logistics.

Years later as a college professor, I had a contract to work on MEDCAP issues for the COIN/Stability operations doctrine for Jim Mattis' JFCOM - the military members of our group were O-6s or higher (except for an AF O-4 physician on my project), and the background materials sent when I signed the contract stated that I was considered a simulated O-6/7 (not bad for a guy who washed out of AFROTC due to asthma found at his commissioning physical). I STILL treated the mostly Marine NCOs we has supporting us with the utmost respect and, in their areas of expertise, deference. A little courtesy and respect goes a long way when, for example, you need a batch of Powerpoint slides printed for distribution or access to a quiet meeting room - or an honest critique from a combat experienced NCO on the feasibility of a non-kinetic tactic at the grunt-eye level. Not coincidentally, EVERY decent general officer I worked with had the same attitude, including Isreali Aref Benny Gantz (then their defense attache, later the Chief of the IDF General Staff), Chaos himself, and a recently retired Marine LTG who had commanded JTF-Africa in the process of turning it into AfriCom.

Good leaders know they are not experts in everything and respect the abilities of even the junior enlisted - and get more out of their men because they show that respect. As a kid, my Dad, then an E-6 with a line number for E-7, was the President of the riding club at Barksdale. The stall across the hall from our mare's housed the gelding owned by the wife of the 8AF commander, LTG Dick Lawson. Dad and I were mucking out Starlett's stall one day and the general came in and started working on cleaning out theirs. Dad said "Good morning, sir" and was promptly corrected. General Lawson told him that he was a general in uniform, but at the stables Dad was the club President and the boss, and to call him Dick there. It stuck in my mind - the general made the point that he was out of uniform just another one of the guys who got his boots and jeans dirty cleaning up horseshit just like everyone else while still upholding his command responsibility and authority. My view as a cadet was that I was a grub who was in the program to be trained so that one day I might evolve into a larval officer, and the best way to do so was to respect experienced troops and learn from them, even if they had chevrons on their shoulders instead of stripes on their shoulderboards - and they could teach a lot of real world lessons the O-3 and O-4 cadre classroom instructors had only recently learned themselves.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2020 4:43 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Nov 2020 16:43:24 -0500

So as a Cadet,in the Guard, they hold a rank of E5. I don't have any of my Joe's call then SGT. But they do hold the respect of an NCO. Calling them Sir or Maam, they don't have that honor yet.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2020 10:38 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 09 Nov 2020 10:38:14 -0500

Yes it is in the regulations and I actually looked it up because someone tried to tell me that cadets also outrank warrant officers but that is not true.
This is how the rank system actually goes and it is stated in the regulations:
1. Enlisted
2. Cadet
3. Warrant officers
4. Officers

Response by SP5 Jennifer Jones made Nov 9 at 2020 6:27 PM

SP5 Jennifer Jones — Mon, 09 Nov 2020 18:27:48 -0500

I have a coworker who won't say how far she got at Westpoint (probably a month) but says she's a Veteran. It drives me crazy. She just says not long. She tells everyone she went to Westpoint but didn't graduate. When asked details she gets busy and has somewhere to go.

Response by COL Daniel Lindsey made Nov 9 at 2020 7:20 PM

COL Daniel Lindsey — Mon, 09 Nov 2020 19:20:58 -0500

Cadets normally are paid at E-5 level— they do not outrank NCOs until they are commissioned and then they are not cadets anymore—. Within the Army Reserve or Army National Guard concurrent membership ROTC program many ROTC cadets receive early Commissioning in their unit —- normally utilized as interns in platoon or such —- the are unofficially many times called “third lieutenants” while serving in this capacity while completing their ROTC Classes.

Response by PO1 David Coleman made Nov 10 at 2020 10:25 AM

PO1 David Coleman — Tue, 10 Nov 2020 10:25:46 -0500

As I understood it (naval structure) the cadet/midshipmen outranked enlisted ranks but had no technical authority as they are still in training. They are above the SR enlisted & under the WO ranks in the structure as far as I remember. It has been 34 years since I retired. Keep in mind they were attached (like a summer intern) to learn good order and discipline and the uniform should be treated with respect and hopefully they will learn to lead with respect. Sometimes they will need explanations as to why things are done as such. We all know logic is not a 100% guarantee in the military. A good JR Officer that listens to advice of his SR enlisted to make an informed decision.

Response by Capt Bill Straw made Nov 10 at 2020 11:57 AM

Capt Bill Straw — Tue, 10 Nov 2020 11:57:49 -0500

A really smart cadet - as in wordly smart, not necessarily academically - learns early that there is a big difference between ‘rank’ and ‘respect’. I was a cadet a looong long time ago and was taught early on (by some very wise officers and enlisted) that the best thing anyone could ever have on their side was a good first seargent. Salutes are little different from handshakes or high fives, but respect is a whole different point. I do think they typically outrank a gold bar though..... doesn’t everything ? We were told that when we pinned those on it was a huge demotion - and a time for humility and learning. That was great advice!

Response by SGT Lawrence Gubernath made Nov 10 at 2020 7:13 PM

SGT Lawrence Gubernath — Tue, 10 Nov 2020 19:13:26 -0500

They get paid the same as a sgt

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 11 at 2020 11:08 AM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Nov 2020 11:08:27 -0500

For as long as I have been serving, the answer has always been no. They do not. They think they do but in my experience they do not. Now I did read some of the answers that said yes they do and i would very much like to see where that info came from so i can correct if i am wrong.

Again in my experience over the last 30 years, they are usually paid at the E5 level and have no authority over anyone (outside their cadet command) as I recall. The correct address for a cadet is usually Mr./Ms/Miss Last name or Cadet Last name. Even on the active duty side when there was interaction, cadets fell under NCOs and pull duties similar to E4 SPCs and below. I often had cadets pulling fire guard and barracks details along with lower enlisted. While all ranks should be treated with respect, they aren’t officers as yet and require no special rendering of honors that I am aware of. Again, if I am wrong I would very much like to know the source so I can correct a long standing error.

Response by PO2 David Witt made Nov 11 at 2020 2:20 PM

PO2 David Witt — Wed, 11 Nov 2020 14:20:51 -0500

LoL, a lot of cadets fell down ladders on ships.

Response by Maj Pete Siegel made Nov 11 at 2020 4:34 PM

Maj Pete Siegel — Wed, 11 Nov 2020 16:34:42 -0500

During my enlisted linguist time, we would be blessed with AF Academy cadets who would be future intel officers. We showed them how things worked and never had problems. Our daughter is a USAFA grad, and I told her to learn who was the most respected NCO in the office and ask her/him for guidance.

Response by SSG Bill Cooke made Nov 11 at 2020 9:03 PM

SSG Bill Cooke — Wed, 11 Nov 2020 21:03:03 -0500

This has been answered before. Cadets are just that cadets. They outrank no one. They are given a job to do and might ask for help. Give them that help but they outrank no one.

Response by SSG Bill Cooke made Nov 11 at 2020 9:04 PM

SSG Bill Cooke — Wed, 11 Nov 2020 21:04:07 -0500

Cadets out rank no one. They are given a job to do. If they ask for help in doing that job help them. But they outrank no one.

Response by MSgt Danny Derden made Nov 12 at 2020 7:13 PM

MSgt Danny Derden — Thu, 12 Nov 2020 19:13:23 -0500

I served at the Air Force Academy for 5 years as an E6/E7 and I never once had a cadet try to pull rank or give me an order. In fact when dealing with cadets they generally referred to me as Sir and requested my assistance very politely if needed. So for me at least the issue of rank never came up and never presented a problem. I treated them with respect as I believe befits a young person who was accepted to a Service Academy and they treated my stripes and experience with respect. It was a two way street for me.

Response by SGM Joel Cook made Nov 15 at 2020 11:37 AM

SGM Joel Cook — Sun, 15 Nov 2020 11:37:01 -0500

Like anything else in the Military there has to be a regulation to spell it out as far as duty, responsibilities, and authority. As far as I know no regulations place Cadets in the Army Chain of Command. Therefore they don’t truly outrank anyone except a lower ranking cadet. While we had several West Point Cadets assigned to our units for summer training our BN CDR got all the Senior NCOs as well as all SSGs in Squadleader or above positions together in the Bn Classroom and laid out his expectations for how these Summer Training Cadets were to be treated, addressed and given respect by us and our subordinates whom he ordered us to brief thoroughly using his comments as much as possible. He also spelled out how to address a situation of a Cadet getting too big for their britches. We only had trouble with one female cadet that seemed to have a mental breakdown while deployed for ten days on the West Range Complex in Panama. She was hospitalized for a mental evaluation. We were briefed that she had some kind of deficiencies in her blood chemistry due to poor nutrition and lack of sleep. She was not eating right nor sleeping because she was afraid of the jungle environment. I heard of that same thing happening to a couple other soldiers that were left alone on guard duty or such by themselves. It is never a good idea to leave anyone by themselves in a jungle environment especially at night. The mind is our own worst enemy in such situations.

Response by SPC Chris Ison made Nov 15 at 2020 8:46 PM

SPC Chris Ison — Sun, 15 Nov 2020 20:46:06 -0500

The only time this would be true is when said cadet is also in the SMP (simultaneous enrollment program) where he is filling an 2nd lt spot in a NG or reserve unit. As he has the "frocked" rank of 2nd lt.

Furthermore, if I were on AD and some dot head tried to tell me to do something, there would be a shit storm of foul language and do nothing; It was hard enough for actual officers, and some NCO's, to get my respect.

As many of the people on this forum know.

Response by MGySgt George W Iliffe Jr made Dec 5 at 2020 4:22 PM

MGySgt George W Iliffe Jr — Sat, 05 Dec 2020 16:22:57 -0500

In 1961 I was a USMC private in wearing my winter service greens in a Bus Depot and standing in front of me was a guy in uniform ( years later I knew he was a Naval Academy Cadet) we starred at each other then we both rendered a hand salute and then walked away from each other without saying a word. Neither of us knew what the others rank was and over the years when reminded I get a laugh out of that moment of fear the two of us shared until we both snapped to attention and saluted.

Response by PO1 Sanford Snyder made Dec 19 at 2020 5:00 PM

PO1 Sanford Snyder — Sat, 19 Dec 2020 17:00:23 -0500

I once attending a Xmas party, non military, many, many years ago. One other attendee was a guy I graduated HS with 3 years prior, he was attending a pre-college program so he could get into college and then get commissioned. At the time I had just made 2nd Class Petty Officer, E-5. We were introduced, he as his status, myself misidentified as still being E-4. I corrected the announcer on his error, whereas my friend piped up "what's the big deal, it's only a number". I responded, "whatever you say O negative 3".

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2020 10:15 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Dec 2020 22:15:29 -0500

Like I was taught at WOCS:

"You can be an asshole to the Lieutenant, and you can be disrespectful, and they will usually suck it up. But, one day, that person will be a Commander. Probably your Commander. And as for the Senior NCO, well, they may be your CSM who hold the ear of that Commander"

That goes for the junior enlisted who ignore the cadet, as well as the cadet who forces respect. It goes both ways.

Response by SGT Brianna MacKinnon made Dec 20 at 2020 12:18 PM

SGT Brianna MacKinnon — Sun, 20 Dec 2020 12:18:23 -0500

I am the oldest child of a retired LtC. My Dad was stationed at West Point with the Facility Engineers when I graduated from High School (James I. O'Neill HS, Highland Falls NY). We often had Cadets over at our Quarters so that is my first experience with Cadets. My next experience with Cadets was at my first duty station at McKee Barracks, Crailsheim Germany. One summer we had a Cadet assigned to our Battery. We were told to treat him as if he were a 3rd Lt. He was there to LEARN and was not in our official chain of command. Our NCO's were told to treat him with respect but were to correct him tactfully if he attempted to give orders.
My next experience was when I was with the 101'st and I was with the HQ detachment from HSB 3/319th FA sent to West Point for summer Cadet training.
In the Reserves, my last AT was to West Point. I was an Army Reserve Drill Sgt and I was sent there to help run the Range for Plebe Rifle Marksmanship Qualification. I was a Line Safety NCO and I was given the primary responsibility of assisting Plebes who had difficulty in qualifying. I got told that was the first year where EVERY Plebe qualified in RMT. Our instructions for that AT was that yes, these youngsters were Officer Trainees but that WE were in charge. We were to treat them with respect but firmly inform them that we were there to train them and they had no authority.

Response by SFC James Himes made Dec 20 at 2020 7:02 PM

SFC James Himes — Sun, 20 Dec 2020 19:02:55 -0500

These are the kind of "leaders" that are most likely to fail. I attended a Mortar Leadership course at Ft Benning. This is primarily a MOS school for young LTs. A limited amount of NCOs are also allowed to attend. The school commandant addressed the class and admonished the LTs to look to the NCOs for mentorship and guidance if they really wanted to become good leaders because of the experience of the NCOs.

Response by SGT Donald Croswhite made Dec 21 at 2020 3:33 AM

SGT Donald Croswhite — Mon, 21 Dec 2020 03:33:31 -0500

F**k No! Cadets, if they're smart will observe and learn. If they're not, they can fertilize the parade field.

Response by SPC John Richardson made Dec 21 at 2020 9:00 AM

SPC John Richardson — Mon, 21 Dec 2020 09:00:26 -0500

Well if you are a cadet, how is it you out rank an non-commissioned Officer - I might be wrong but can someone please site military regulation that says a ROTC cadet or Academy Cadet outranks an NCO.

Response by SP5 Richard Welch made Jan 3 at 2021 6:28 PM

SP5 Richard Welch — Sun, 03 Jan 2021 18:28:00 -0500

When they train with active duty troops, the instructor is in charge of them as long as class continues. Saw interesting interaction at Bragg when I was there. A cadet threatened everyone with the fact that he was being assigned to Combat Engineer unit l was in. He couldn't function in field as a cadet, was transferred within battalion when he broke down and cried after he had to carry the pig (M60) in Jungle Training. He was medivaced and was gone from unit before we got back.

Response by CPO Don Campbell made Jan 19 at 2021 10:25 AM

CPO Don Campbell — Tue, 19 Jan 2021 10:25:33 -0500

This is very interesting...I certainly wouldn't loose any sleep over any officer candidate out ranking me but the real opportunity is to mentor and mold this soon to be officers...as U climb the enlisted ranks Ur responsibility includes training and taking care of both junior enlisted and junior officers...as a Chief my people were E-1 to E-6 and O-1 to O-3 and I changed just as many officer diapers as enlisted diapers...0-4s were pretty much potty trained but there was the occasional accident...mostly it was treating boo boos when they fell on there butts...0-5s just needed a little help as they were still a little wobbly having just learned to ride bicycles...0-6s needed a little help with their homework but I was probably just as confused as they were with the homework...little bit off topic here but to be able to work with future officers at the cadet level is quite an opportunity to influence future leadership...but I presume that a cadet has not actually received their commission yet so I wouldn't hesitate to address them up or down if needed...by the way a neighbor occasionally reminds me he outrank me...sleep like a baby whenever he does so...WOW I think this is the first time I have replied without venting my frustration with the VA

Response by Maj Charles Dusch made Jan 19 at 2021 7:03 PM

Maj Charles Dusch — Tue, 19 Jan 2021 19:03:44 -0500

Interesting, however Academy cadets and midshipmen are not actually on active duty, per se, if memory serves.

Response by 1SG Mark Tillman made Jan 19 at 2021 10:05 PM

1SG Mark Tillman — Tue, 19 Jan 2021 22:05:50 -0500

When I was a unit 1SG in GTMO, we had a couple of Cadets over the summer months. We had one Cadet actually tell a SGT that they were "just an NCO". I then watched the CDR pull that Cadet into her office and commence to explain to the Cadet that without the NCOs mentorship and ability to work with her, she would ultimately fail as an officer.

Response by PO1 Christopher Gómez made Jan 20 at 2021 1:20 AM

PO1 Christopher Gómez — Wed, 20 Jan 2021 01:20:34 -0500

Not sure about the Army, but in the Navy, they technically rank between E-9 and W-1/W-2. We do not usually acknowledge this though so it isn't a hard rule, at least in my experience.

When I was stationed on a destroyer as a Navigator and Special Operations team member, we went to Annapolis and took some Midshipmen (middies) out to sea to teach them what being in the fleet is like. Most of them were pretty cool and actually listened to what we had to say. A few of them were complete fucktards and acted like we owed them something. I was an E-5 who had deployed twice already so I was pretty experienced by that point. There was this one middie who was a real asshole and I ran into him topside one day. He stopped me as I was walking by him and said "where's my salute, Sailor?" I looked at his rank patch and saw he was a second-year middie so I told him "when you earn your commission, come find me and I will give it to you" then walked away to go about my duty. He didn't say anything else to me the rest of that cruise.

We were on the flight deck undergoing weapons training for the middies one day. My buddy, a former Marine turned Sailor, and I were doing hand grenade training at the time. We would put a flak jacket and Kevlar helmet on the middies and teach them one at a time to pull the pin and throw the grenade over the side of the ship. We had this one who pulled the pin, reached her arm way back, and as she was swinging her arm forward to throw, she dropped the grenade on the deck. We grabbed her and hit the deck as we watched the grenade bounce along the flight deck, dink-dink-dink, until it finally rolled off and over the side. It exploded right at the waterline from what we could tell. We got up and said something to the effect that we were done, collected all the weapons and gear, stowed it all, then went to report to our superiors. I think I went to the head to check my underwear after that. LOL

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 21 at 2021 12:20 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 Jan 2021 12:20:34 -0500

in my combat line unit NCOs sometimes give strong advice to 2nd LT never mid cadets they are equal to a E-5 but they have no command auterity yet

Response by SSG D. B. Messkit - Small Arms Master Gunner made Jan 21 at 2021 8:26 PM

SSG D. B. Messkit - Small Arms Master Gunner — Thu, 21 Jan 2021 20:26:28 -0500

New to the Platoon, and in fact arrived during a field exercise, I was at parade rest 5' from the PltSgt as he instructed the brand new 2LT (who gave me a ride out) to never come near the Platoon again, unless he had hot chow, hot coffee, or beer, and to take care of our business from the orderly room.

Never saw that LT ever again.

Response by SFC Benjamin Harrison made Jan 22 at 2021 7:25 PM

SFC Benjamin Harrison — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 19:25:28 -0500

Let’s make it simple, cadets have not sworn an oath nor have they been commissioned. Until these steps occur they are civilians with zero authority over any Soldier.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2021 7:49 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 07:49:28 -0500

Look at their LES it should show E5.

Response by Cpl Eric Ramsey made Jan 23 at 2021 10:17 AM

Cpl Eric Ramsey — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 10:17:04 -0500

Cadets are students not NCO's or a Officer. They have no rank in the REAL military. They will become officers or become enlisted. Until that time, they are naught. They cant even give a legal order.

Response by AN Michael Wilder made Jan 23 at 2021 1:17 PM

AN Michael Wilder — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 13:17:10 -0500

If I might interject a Navy perspective here, I was stationed at NAS Pensacola, Florida for Aircrew and Rescue Swimmer schools and that was also one place where they had OCS, so we had a lot of people around with strange collar insignia (cadet ranks) and occasionally we'd have these newly minted ensigns walking around the base. Our instructions in regards to these people and their training/ living area were to steer clear and basically ignore them. Don't start none, won't be none so to speak. So, anyway, one day a couple of my buddies and I are headed somewhere that caused us to be passing the base command building and we were witness to an epic incident that I will never forget.
As fate would have it, the Command Master Chief was exiting the building at the same time one of these new ensigns was entering and the little genius (he looked like he was about 15 years old) had the audacity to stop the CMC and berate him for not saluting. The old master chief, without a word or change of demeanor, reached into his pocket, pulled out a bit of change, handed the kid a quarter, and told him to "go call someone who gives a damn." It was the saltiest thing we'd ever seen...lol! This ensign then becomes somewhat apoplectic and demands the master chief's name, etc. so that he can report him for insubordination and whatever else he could pin on him and the master chief then proceeds to launch into what master chiefs, especially CMC's are made for and that is the ass-chewing of the century. He scares this kid so bad he has him popped tall and rigid as he just chews him up and spits him out, pointing out that he is the "COMMAND MASTER CHIEF for NAS PENSACOLA, the next thing to GOD, who is the CO upstairs" and then says something along the lines of "In fact, come with me and let me introduce you to Him" as he leads this poor guy back into the building. My buddies and I are at first all just stunned at what we've witnessed but after a couple of seconds we realize what we've just seen and just die laughing and we talked about that for the rest of our time there and then some...lol!
The moral of this story? There is rank and then there is position of authority and the Command Master Chief of pretty much ANY command is going to be, by virtue of position of authority, that being the enlisted right hand to the CO, and anyone short of a Commander, heck, maybe even a Captain depending on who the CO is, would be wise to recognize this and act accordingly. Most of them do but that poor ensign had apparently not got that memo and paid for it dearly. It was probably the best lesson he ever got...lol!

Response by CPO Manolito Arciaga made Jan 25 at 2021 8:17 AM

CPO Manolito Arciaga — Mon, 25 Jan 2021 08:17:07 -0500

Cadets have not earned their commission, so NO they don't out rank NCOs

Response by Capt Wayne Burden made Jan 26 at 2021 12:07 PM

Capt Wayne Burden — Tue, 26 Jan 2021 12:07:46 -0500

A smart (i.e. mature thinking) cadet would realize they’re just one level above whale snot until they actually get their commission. Then, a smart butter bar should learn as much as he/she can from all those NCO’s some wanted to boss around. A desire to “outrank” NCO’s is a sign of extreme immaturity and might even be partial grounds for washing them out. Just my opinion...

Response by CPL Gail White made Jan 26 at 2021 12:38 PM

CPL Gail White — Tue, 26 Jan 2021 12:38:04 -0500

They are barely out of kindergarten. No way would I think a kid should expect a salute from a soldier. I was an E-4 and worked with a lot of butterburs. When they would start to get arrogant with me I would simply stand up and continue speaking in my normal tone. These boys had no idea how to talk to a woman taller than them!!!

Response by LCpl Troy Gwyn made Jan 27 at 2021 10:06 AM

LCpl Troy Gwyn — Wed, 27 Jan 2021 10:06:36 -0500

No, cadets do not out rank NCO's. The emergency conditions do not currently exist.

Response by CPT Christopher Fish made Jan 31 at 2021 8:03 PM

CPT Christopher Fish — Sun, 31 Jan 2021 20:03:37 -0500

I can only remember the sage words of my Dad when I first became a cadet and later as a 2LT. “Shut your mouth, open your ears, 80% of what you’ll learn is from your NCOs”. And as usual he was 100% right. Hopefully there are good officers to ‘guide’ these cadets.

Response by CPL Derick Bertram made Feb 15 at 2021 2:27 PM

CPL Derick Bertram — Mon, 15 Feb 2021 14:27:52 -0500

Best thread yet! *Popping popcorn and reading comments*

Response by 1SG Patrick Sims made Feb 15 at 2021 2:46 PM

1SG Patrick Sims — Mon, 15 Feb 2021 14:46:31 -0500

In their dreams.

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made Feb 16 at 2021 3:35 PM

SSgt Daniel d'Errico — Tue, 16 Feb 2021 15:35:58 -0500

Cadets have not been commissioned as officers until they graduate from either of t he academies. Outranking anyone while still a cadet is restricted to the academy they attend. Being out in the "real military " world doesn't mean they out rank you yet. After graduating they're on the bottom of the officer's totem pole of outranking anyone.

Response by 1LT Mark Fleming made Feb 17 at 2021 9:56 PM

1LT Mark Fleming — Wed, 17 Feb 2021 21:56:01 -0500

I was taught in ROTC (a long time ago); cadets have no standing in the military. They are just that, a cadet, with no authority to direct anyone but other cadets they out rank.

I am now a business consultant, and I see this entitlement attitude (which they pick up in college) in industry, too. So, unfortunately, this attitude is not exclusive to the military.

I was fortunate to have a father who was an NCO in WWII. About the time I was commissioned, he gave me some advice that served me well in my three years in the Army. He told me to listen to my NCOs, do what they recommended, and watch their back. He went on to say if I did that, they would be fiercely loyal and have my back too. I followed that advice and always supported my NCOs, and as expected, my father was right. I had a great working relationship with my NCOs, and the unit ran smoothly.

So, to any cadets reading this…shut your mouth, listen, and observe. If you do so, you will learn how to get things done.

The mark of a good leader is the ability to motivate people to do what needs to get done without them feeling like they are being forced to do it.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2021 3:18 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Feb 2021 03:18:44 -0500

I may be late to this discussion, but I would like to offer my insight. As a prior service CONTRACTED Cadet currently in the SMP unit with the National Guard, I can tell you the roles of a cadet. Before all that, I want to express my disappointment in some of the NCOs and even Officers on here, on how they treat cadets. We as servicemembers should uphold military courtesy at all levels. Now to break down the rank of cadet, and yes Cadets do have ranks and yes they TECHNICALLY outrank all Enlisted personnel to include the SMA, but do not outrank the Warrants. With that said, I disagree with the regulation that states that, AR 600-20, but that is my opinion and we all know our personal opinions do not matter to Army Regulations.
There are different types of cadets, there are non-contracted and contracted, no service and prior service, now to explain where they all fall under.
Non contracted cadets are college students before their Senior year and have no military obligation after graduation, they are civilians per se. Contracted cadets, such as myself, have a military obligation and responsibilities to adhere to before and after graduation, they are the ones who outrank the Enlisted. The rank insignia is a dot, and you must address them as: Cadet OR Mr./Ms. If you are kind enough, "Sir", but that is not required, I have a few NCOs calling me that and I do not mind it since I should start to get used to it. But please do Not refer to them as "dot or cadidiot," that is disrespectful. You would not (hopefully) call a 2LT "butter bar" or a CPT "train tracks" or COL "full bird" and much less any GO "star". IF they do anything stupid then sure go ahead make fun of them, but also please mentor them especially you NCOs, that is your job, to mentor the jr enlisted and officers, cadets too since they most likely become an officer in the nearby future. Think about that, would you like a cadet to hate NCOs because of bad experiences and bring that attitude to their new unit as a 2LT who now has more responsibilities.
Many soldiers do not understand the rank of Cadet, I get asked all the time, if they have to salute me or stand at attention or on how to address me. Since the SMP unit I am assigned to was my original unit before contracting, I know all my E-4 buddies and many still treat me as such. I know once I commission that will all change. I explain to them the regulation and the reality of it, although I may outrank an E-9, I would NEVER order an E-9 or even E-5 to do something. Unless, I have the given authority by my PL to command the Platoon to do tasks related to the mission, which I have, I've told E-5s what to do, respectfully of course. Many NCOs may not like the fact that I was an E4 and now a Cadet, whose paygrade is that of an E5 for pay purposes, and can tell them what to do (only when PL allows me to do so).
One more thing, a cadet in an SMP unit is by AR 600-20 in succession of command, if all officers are not present for official reasons (KIA, POW, MIA, etc). The command of the unit can be given to a cadet even if that cadet has no idea how to tie their boots. Big Army would rather give command of a unit to a cadet rather than the Senior Enlisted Leader. As I stated before, I do not agree with the regulation but I will comply with it, as you should all. Also, kudos to the senior officers who stick up to the jr officers whenever an NCO disrespects the officer, especially in front of soldiers, the NCO may be right in the argument but they must maintain military discipline when talking to officers.

Response by Maj Gary Gault made Feb 26 at 2021 1:00 AM

Maj Gary Gault — Fri, 26 Feb 2021 01:00:30 -0500

Cadets are just that STUDENTS and are NOT fully vested in any rank other than at the school. This is a universal rule in all armies at all times. Cheers,

Response by PO1 Dennis Lee made Feb 26 at 2021 10:53 AM

PO1 Dennis Lee — Fri, 26 Feb 2021 10:53:33 -0500

They DO NOT out rank any one. Until they are commissioned they are just not there to take command. They are in training!

Response by PO1 Dennis Lee made Feb 26 at 2021 10:56 AM

PO1 Dennis Lee — Fri, 26 Feb 2021 10:56:08 -0500

Never does a cadet out rank any one. They are students, they are NOT commissioned officers. If one had ever "ordered" me to do anything, my response would have been unpleasant. No way is some boot cadet got the knowledge to direct me, take command or otherwise engage in a leadership activity except to be led and directed.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2021 1:32 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Mar 2021 13:32:04 -0500

Yes they do. And personally, as my unit failed to do this, if you have a prior enlisted cadet within your ranks you should that opportunity to use this situation as a learning experience. It’s sometimes hard to transition from that fun, messing around private or specialist into an officer. So no cadets should not be commanding enlisted unless they have been given a position as an OIC or something. But this ranking structure should definitely be used as a transition and shadowing period.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2021 6:59 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Mar 2021 06:59:21 -0500

Yes they do. However, since they’re Cadets, they better tread lightly when ordering around Soldiers that have been in. If they are a Cadet doing Cadet Troop Leader Training (CTLT), they are there to work on their Leadership skills in leading Troops during this Temporary Duty. If I were them I would take this time to learn from the Soldiers (& Junior Officers that are supposed to shadow & mentor them) about what the Army is truly like & how they as a future Army Officer can become a good leader that also respects his subordinates & their advice.

Response by Lt Col David Myers made Mar 16 at 2021 3:39 PM

Lt Col David Myers — Tue, 16 Mar 2021 15:39:27 -0400

Cadets are students until they graduate and receive their commission, then and only then, do they "outrank" an NCO. When I was Superintendent of Medical Logistics, I would have loved for a cadet to enter my "Domain" and give me an order. I would give them directions to the "playground" and ask them to leave their milk money on their way out .

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2021 9:11 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Mar 2021 09:11:38 -0400

This to me is less of a rank question and more so one of inherit respect. There is no such rank as cadet in the Army, nor has that cadet earned their commission yet. However, why burn a bridge that still being build. At the same time respect goes both ways, that cadet should recognize the experience already put in place and pull from that to add to their own.

Response by SSG Lubec Beshansky made Mar 22 at 2021 11:02 PM

SSG Lubec Beshansky — Mon, 22 Mar 2021 23:02:03 -0400

As my old Infantry Platoon Sergeant would say, “I looked in all the books that Fort Benning provided me, thinking I might have missed something they taught me, and a Cadet Rank was never in my Military training. I will salute foreign officers that I recognize the Ranks of...”

Response by CPT Keith Celebrezze made Mar 22 at 2021 11:11 PM

CPT Keith Celebrezze — Mon, 22 Mar 2021 23:11:53 -0400

Instead of challenging their questionable authority, I think the cadets would benefit from a little lunch conversation. Don't fight them. Explain to them the truth we all know, which is that a rank is not a hammer. It's a responsibility. Hit them that way and you'll get great results.

Then, to establish dominance, explain that at lunch, the highest rank pays, stand up, and walk out

Response by CPT W Brown made Mar 23 at 2021 7:05 PM

CPT W Brown — Tue, 23 Mar 2021 19:05:36 -0400

Good points. Yes, technically a cadet outranks NCOs. So does a 2LT platoon leader. And any CoCO over the 1SG. I've been a cadet, 2LT PL, and an infantry CoCO. It NEVER entered my mind to use rank as a position of authority. It is caring, respect, presence, and judgment that gets people to walk through walls for the mission, not rank or authority. Anyone who relies on their position is weak and useless. Get them out of the chain of command - in the military and it applies as civilians as well.

Response by SP5 Michael Ingenito made Mar 23 at 2021 9:02 PM

SP5 Michael Ingenito — Tue, 23 Mar 2021 21:02:45 -0400

I love it when we send them out the door on their "Cherry Jump" (Sgt. Mike ret. 509th Airborne)

Response by SPC Henry Francis made Mar 23 at 2021 11:07 PM

SPC Henry Francis — Tue, 23 Mar 2021 23:07:25 -0400

I only dealt with cadets as a group attending my class on proper preparation and use of an M-60 range card. I had no problems with them and I was only an E-4. Given the relationship between our NCOs and the officers of our unit I would expect a brilliant show from any command officer from the company CO up to the Brigade Commander in response to cadet’s attempt to assert their “rank” over their NCOs.

Response by SSG Bob Essigman made Mar 24 at 2021 11:19 AM

SSG Bob Essigman — Wed, 24 Mar 2021 11:19:09 -0400

I worked with Cadets from West Point and they say that " CADETS " have the rank of E-5!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2021 11:37 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Mar 2021 11:37:59 -0400

Ha, that's cute.

Response by LCpl Jim Pleace made Mar 24 at 2021 7:37 PM

LCpl Jim Pleace — Wed, 24 Mar 2021 19:37:05 -0400

I contend that they don't rank anything because they're still in training. We were all E-1's or higher at boot but then we're standard enlisted ranks. I don't think a cadet ranks for shit, I don't care how many stripes or stars they've got. If they expect a salute then they have another thing coming

Response by PO3 Dale Olson made Mar 25 at 2021 12:10 PM

PO3 Dale Olson — Thu, 25 Mar 2021 12:10:58 -0400

I went thru this BS on a Midshipman Crusie. 6 of these twits came about the USS JohnS. McCain DL-3. I was a lowly PO3 and was assigned to give them the 25 cent tour of CIC (Combat Information Center). Somehow the conversion got around to who outranked who. I made them a bet that if I could do more pushups than 1 of them they would call me Mr and didn't have to call them Sir. The biggest of the group said how about 20 to start with... my reply was which arm, right or left. I did 20 with my right arm and then it was over. What they didn't know was I have been lifting weights for almost 3 years and 20 pushups were just a warm-up. At that time I could bench press 325. Today not so much.

Response by SFC Charlie Broadus II made Mar 26 at 2021 6:50 PM

SFC Charlie Broadus II — Fri, 26 Mar 2021 18:50:43 -0400

They do but...one would have to have some really big balls to try to pull rank on any NCO
And then they would get ripped off and handed to him

Response by 1SG Jeffrey Mullett made Mar 26 at 2021 9:26 PM

1SG Jeffrey Mullett — Fri, 26 Mar 2021 21:26:50 -0400

The answer is NO, they do not outrank NCOs, they are Cadets, IN training. They are paid at the grade of E5 until they are commissioned. Their rank is whatever the rank they've achieved until they are commissioned. If they have achieved a higher Noncommissioned rank then they retain that rank responsibility.
A Cadet is an officer in training and is not an officer until they are commissioned. They can work in positions of authority if they belong to a Reserve or Guard unit outside of their school role.
I worked as a Training NCO for 17 years, and we had SMP or Simultaneous Membership Program personnel. If the Commander determined to put them in leadership roles, such as an O1 billet, then they had that level of responsibility and the unit identified them as that level. However, NCOs are not required to salute a Cadet.

Response by 1SG Ken Bedwell made Mar 27 at 2021 4:35 PM

1SG Ken Bedwell — Sat, 27 Mar 2021 16:35:04 -0400

Absolutely not.

Response by PO3 Terry Lee made Mar 27 at 2021 7:19 PM

PO3 Terry Lee — Sat, 27 Mar 2021 19:19:06 -0400

Absolutely, but the possibility of running across one in uniform is extremely rare. Hope that isn't at the top of your "Worry List."

Response by SFC Tim OReilly made Mar 28 at 2021 10:25 AM

SFC Tim OReilly — Sun, 28 Mar 2021 10:25:12 -0400

An old story, back in days of sail and wooden ships, a certain midshipman (navy version of cadet) was involved in a battle, a senior officer was injured and the young middie took it upon himself to haul the wounded man to the aid station. While he was gone every other officer was killed. After the battle the midshipman was court martialed. And convicted. The charge being leaving his appointed place of duty. Because with all the other officers down he was in command. Morale of the story yes, cadets are officers.

Response by MAJ Ron Peery made Mar 28 at 2021 3:28 PM

MAJ Ron Peery — Sun, 28 Mar 2021 15:28:32 -0400

Try not to laugh out loud. Until they get their commission, they outrank no one. If they are SMP, their pay grade is E5. Be polite, but if the cadet gets too insistent, elevate the issue to your chain of command.

Response by PO1 Doc Dennis made Mar 28 at 2021 8:33 PM

PO1 Doc Dennis — Sun, 28 Mar 2021 20:33:39 -0400

As a 1st Class Navy Corpsman with 9 years service including two combat tours with the Marines, I was serving my last year as a submarine corpsman on independent duty. We had 5 or six cadets from the Naval academy onboard for their summer "Midshipman Cruise". I was standing at sea duty on the BCP when this young cadet (in his senior year) suddenly appeared next to me. I quickly noticed his collar insignia was the Marine Corps Globe and Anchor. I of course was very familiar with it since I also wore one on my Vietnam Campaign Ribbon. Just to give this youngster a bit of a hard time, I asked him what in the H he was doing wearing it. Didn't he realize he was attending the NAVAL Academy? He said, "I have decided to serve as a Marine Corps Intelligence Officer". I love my marines and have always picked on them every chance I get. So, I said: "Marine -Intelligence?" "I'm sorry but I can't correlate the two!" He scooted off in a huff without saying anything further. After mid-rats that evening I was giving the Captain my daily department status report, when he informed me that a midshipman was whining about "the corpsman disrespecting him as a Marine Officer". The Captain then informed him that "the disrespectful corpsman" had more time fighting alongside the Grunts than he would probably experience in his entire Marine Career". The CO then said "Doc, be nice to your new playmates". I simply smiled... Semper Fi!

Response by SSG Tom Montgomery made Mar 29 at 2021 12:53 AM

SSG Tom Montgomery — Mon, 29 Mar 2021 00:53:42 -0400

Since they have not been commissioned they have no actual authority. They are training to become commissioned officers so we show them the respect the uniform deserves.
I had niece who graduated from West Point. Between her junior and senior year she was sent to a regular army unit for training.
She asked me what advice I had for her. I told her, above all. Trust your NCO's. They can be your best ally or worst enemy. She didn't take it to heart and emailed me about her quandary. What it boiled down to was her "West Point" attitude. When I reminded her that she had only been in a "training " environment for three years. These NCO's had years of experience and had been through more than she could imagine. The rest of her summer went well.

Response by SP6 Peter Kreutzfeldt made Mar 29 at 2021 11:06 AM

SP6 Peter Kreutzfeldt — Mon, 29 Mar 2021 11:06:20 -0400

Why worry about it, most of the cadets if they ever become officers will hope and wish that a good NCA will help them down the road. An NCO can make them cry or shine, its always up to the

Response by LTC Martin Glynn made Apr 1 at 2021 5:56 PM

LTC Martin Glynn — Thu, 01 Apr 2021 17:56:06 -0400

This topic has come up frequently. Yes, according to AR 600–20, Army Command Policy, cadets rank above NCO's and below Warrant Officers. However, the ONLY times I ever saw any cadet try to tell an NCO "what's what," that cadet was a prior-service Green-to-Gold program type.

Lots of ROTC and Service Academy cadets have prior service, and not surprisingly, they don't particularly like being cadets, probably because anyone with some experience doesn't like being in a trainee status again. So the prior service cadets often want everyone to know about their experience, especially if they used to be junior NCO's themselves.

Never in my entire career, which included time as an ROTC cadet, time in the ROTC/ARNG Simultaneous Membership Program (SMP), time spent supporting ROTC Advanced Camp training, and time spent training cadets in the Cadet Troop Leader Training (CTLT) program, did I ever see a non-prior-service cadet try to tell an NCO anything other than, "Yes, Sergeant," "No Sergeant," or "Thank you Sergeant." The non-prior-service types were just grateful that someone was teaching and training them. They all looked forward to getting commissioned and entering active or reserve duty, but unlike the prior-service types, they didn't dislike being cadets. Hell, after one Airborne-qualified CTLT cadet got to make a couple of jumps with my platoon in the 82nd Airborne Division, he was so happy he bought beer for the entire platoon!

Response by Lt Col Gary Uzzel made Apr 2 at 2021 3:59 PM

Lt Col Gary Uzzel — Fri, 02 Apr 2021 15:59:21 -0400

Years ago we had a 2LT come into the unit and right off the bat proceeded to tell the Chief (E-9) how to do his job, and that changes we're going to be made regardless of whether people liked it or not. Long story short, we were pretty sure the Chief made a few calls and and lo and behold, that 2LT did not get paid for close to three or four months. he had to take out loans just to pay bills. I think the Chief may have said something like, don't f*** with the Chiefs. Never an issue again from the lieutenant.

Response by CPT Shane D. Metz made Apr 3 at 2021 5:38 PM

CPT Shane D. Metz — Sat, 03 Apr 2021 17:38:14 -0400

In my book no and I was enlisted for 12 years before taking my commission...but Yes, cadets (and midshipmen) in “ADVANCED SENIOR ROTC” (MS IV year) program status, the same as cadets and midshipmen enrolled in U.S. federal service academies, legally/ officially “outrank” all enlisted personnel....but any Cadet worth their salt should understand they know nothing and are there to learn how to become a good if not great Officer...they should always listen to their NCOs as they have all the knowledge. While serving on active or weekend drills they are only allowed to wear their pips and not their cadet rank that they would wear at the Academy or College.

Response by LTC David Howard made Apr 3 at 2021 5:59 PM

LTC David Howard — Sat, 03 Apr 2021 17:59:41 -0400

If a cadet (and I am not sure who you are referring to. Do you ROTC members, or members of the Corps of Cadets at the USMA?) "outranks" and NCO, that is something new since I was in the Army. And when I was in ROTC, we had non-com instructors and I can assure you we did not have authority or rank over them.

Response by MSG John Hayden made Apr 6 at 2021 8:50 AM

MSG John Hayden — Tue, 06 Apr 2021 08:50:01 -0400

My last position was an E8 Senior Military Instructor of an Army ROTC at a four-year college. Cadets do not outrank NCOs. They are not commissioned officers, and have no command or general military authority except among other cadets within their program.

Response by LTC Leonard M. Manning, Sr made Apr 8 at 2021 8:11 PM

LTC Leonard M. Manning, Sr — Thu, 08 Apr 2021 20:11:21 -0400

ROTC cadets are not in the service until they commission so as civilians they do not out rank and NCO. West Point cadets are enlisted while in college and are paid at the rank of E5. They also do not outrank a NCO. However, I agree with a previous comment - garb some popcorn and a comfortable seat and await the fireworks.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2021 11:12 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 May 2021 11:12:12 -0400

When does a cadet get commissioned? The answer to that is also the answer to your question

Response by CW4 Bryan Kirby made May 5 at 2021 9:56 PM

CW4 Bryan Kirby — Wed, 05 May 2021 21:56:18 -0400

When I was attending WOCS at Rucker we had the Commandant tell us as candidates we now outranked the BDE CSM in the building next to us. Then followed it up with” you don’t outrank the man in his pocket”

Response by CPO Kurt Baschab made May 5 at 2021 10:55 PM

CPO Kurt Baschab — Wed, 05 May 2021 22:55:26 -0400

when I was on Active Duty, I really Never had much of a Issue with the Cadets, most knew they were there to learn, and we treated them with the upmost respect, and they treated us with the same, most of them were there to pick are brains not to get into a pissing contest, they were there to learn, and we were there to teach. but Sadly every Once in a GREAT WHILE YOU GET THAT ONE SMART ASS, THAT WANTS TO TEST THE WATERS . to see what he or she can get away with. that where a REALLY GOOD NCO OR CHIEF will put the CADET IN HIS OR HER PLACE with out them every knowing it. in other words, they are waking up in the middle of the night or 3/4 of the way down the Passage way saying Aye Aye Chief and Thank You very much, before they realized they just got screwed and put in there place, and wondering how the NCO or CHIEF Accomplished this task, without them Even Realizing it.
but most Cadets never have to suffer this pain, because they know why they are there.

Response by SPC Will Thorson made May 6 at 2021 8:38 AM

SPC Will Thorson — Thu, 06 May 2021 08:38:52 -0400

I remember having company formations saying that we were getting in cadets and to treat them like a LT. We never did. Almost to a tee, we didn't care. What we were though were baby sitters for a couple guys that looked completely out of their element. We got there guys in whose only military they have seen was on tv or at college. And here they were...going to the field with a infantry company. And Bradley's on top of that. We had 2. One that went with the dismounts and one with the Bradley crews. As platoon sgts gunner, I got one of them. Luckily I got one who was grounded, still had the deer in the headlights look. The sad fact for him was he sat in the back while we did missions. When we did stop i would explain what we were doing and why and so on. It was nice when they were motivated and wanting to learn. But I've had the rich kids too. The ones who automatically thought they were above us. When I was stationed at NTC we got in a couple cadets. One was a prick. He literally thought he was am officer. Lol. That didn't last long. He was so annoying that our company commander have him to our battalion and put him on our "dirt team". These guys were battalion level reconnaissance and would go to the field for around 10 days. No demanding standing at parade rest talking to him in the field. Lol. I think for the most part, 90% of cadets understood their role within my units. There was the order from battalion then there was our orders. Battalion? Treat them like a LT. Company level? Treat them like privates but with higher respect. Haha.

Response by SGT Lorenzo Vicente made May 6 at 2021 8:42 AM

SGT Lorenzo Vicente — Thu, 06 May 2021 08:42:20 -0400

I would also like to add onto this conversation: or all “cadets” are created equally. During my basic training at Fort Dix in 1989, I had the “pleasure” of having several cadets assigned to the cadre of my company. These were cadets from West Point, between their junior and senior years. These cadets were both well respected by and very respectful of the full time cadre. The drill sergeants certainly honored the chain of command and rank of the cadets. In turn, the cadets did not step in and enforce their rank. They were there to aid the drill sergeants in daily training, and they did an amazing job.

In my years since that time, I have met ROTC and OCS cadets as well. For the most part, they were also respectful of their position in their various attached units. That said, they were not even close to where the West Point cadets were in military knowledge and education. They knew the subject areas which they were attending college for, but they were weak in command fortitude.

As such, I say that not all cadets are equal (which can also be said of commanders and NCOs, I suppose).

Response by CPO Shawn Kirchner made May 6 at 2021 1:31 PM

CPO Shawn Kirchner — Thu, 06 May 2021 13:31:25 -0400

They have no commission until graduation so therefor, no. Cadets do not outrank anyone, even an E-1.

Response by AN Shelly Kraal made May 6 at 2021 3:09 PM

AN Shelly Kraal — Thu, 06 May 2021 15:09:56 -0400

I'm a disabled Navy vet with a service dog named Master Chief. When asked why, I always respond, "Well, in the Navy, the LT's tell their people what to do, but the smart ones listen to their Master Chiefs. My Master Chief tells me when it's time for me to stop being an idiot."

Response by COL Dave Sims made May 6 at 2021 4:30 PM

COL Dave Sims — Thu, 06 May 2021 16:30:15 -0400

When I was selected as a 18 year old officer candidate (soon to turn a venerable 19 years old) my Dad still on active duty as a Master Gunnery Sergeant (USMC) said congratulations and remember what I told you - "Mouth shut, ears open and listen to what your NCOs tell you." This served me well as a officer candidate, lieutenant and my early years a captain. After that I still listened very carefully to their advice and counsel. Sometimes we agreed some times not...but I listened. As I gained more experience and judgement I realized the wisdom of what Dad had told me. A young officer, cadet etc. has to understand that your NCOs are not the enemy but are helping you develop - knowing that at anytime you will have to make tough decisions that affect other lives.

Response by SSG Bill McCoy made May 8 at 2021 2:31 PM

SSG Bill McCoy — Sat, 08 May 2021 14:31:47 -0400

Yes/no. LOL We had some go with us on an FTX for 3 days. Two gals and one guy. Our 2lT was working hard to impress the one gal who was a true KNOCK-OUT blonde - centerfold type. Me and another NCO rolled a CS grenade undeer the opposite isde of a deuce-1/2 where he was (tryinng) to impress her. As it happened, the gas lingered under the truck until a breeze pushed it out and enveloped them! We'd move away to watch from aother angle ... they both looked at this big cloud around their legs as it got higher and hit them full force. We never laughed so hard in our lives! Both were so shocked they stood there gagging for a bit then ran away, coughing and crying.
The 2LT turned out to be a pretty good officer though ... took him a bit longer t han most butterbars, but he was an okay guy. He married another WAC 2LT later and she was eventually up for a star.

Response by CPL Jack Rand made May 9 at 2021 3:19 PM

CPL Jack Rand — Sun, 09 May 2021 15:19:38 -0400

Never forgot the story of a 2LT walk into first sargents office reach in his desk ,the Sargent kicked it closed almost breaking his finger,
When he complained to company commander he said you deserve it !

Response by CWO3 Robert Fong made May 10 at 2021 2:57 PM

CWO3 Robert Fong — Mon, 10 May 2021 14:57:48 -0400

I can't speak for the Army or MC but I can speak for the Coast Guard, and I would assume that it works for the Navy also. A Cadet is a Midshipman at the Paygrade of E-5. A Midshipman derives his or her moniker based on Square Rigged sailing days. The crew bunked forward near the foc'sle (fore castle), the Officers and Master quartered below the Quarter Deck. The ship's carpenter, chandler, and cook were in the deck houses between the Mizzen and Main Mast. The Cadets were berthed in the Deckhouse amidship hence the name Midshipmen. Midshipmen are entitled to the courtesy shown a Junior Officer, but do not outrank the Petty Officers. Frankly, I would pity the Midshipman who would try to take on a Master Chief Bosun as that would be the fastest way to get to the Bridge for on-site education. Most Midshipmen know that they are aboard ship to learn and have fun doing it. and the crew enjoys teaching and showing.

Response by MAJ David Atkinson made May 11 at 2021 3:22 PM

MAJ David Atkinson — Tue, 11 May 2021 15:22:03 -0400

There is rank and there is respect for service and experience. From a former NCO and OCS Mustang.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2021 7:25 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 May 2021 19:25:30 -0400

This comes up on here once and a while and it seems to get a few people, cough, NCOS, heated. The reality is there aren't going to be many scenarios where cadets even interact with NCOs outside the ones at West Point or ROTC. There are probably some summer "internships" where cadets join serve with a regular unit and some ROTC cadets are in guard units but there is still a commander who certainly will only let the cadet go so far off track. The NCOs and Warrants should mentor the cadets as those cadets will soon outrank even the Warrants, be writing our evaluations, and giving orders.

Response by SFC Malvin Espinosa made May 12 at 2021 2:33 PM

SFC Malvin Espinosa — Wed, 12 May 2021 14:33:35 -0400

Its just a courtesy provided them, they are not even officially in service until they commission

Response by Gregory Pasquier made May 12 at 2021 7:44 PM

Gregory Pasquier — Wed, 12 May 2021 19:44:15 -0400

Outranking and actual authority are two different things....

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2021 11:49 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 May 2021 11:49:41 -0400

There is one tricky situation with midshipmen which is command of small boats. The senior Naval line officer onboard (if there is one) is legally in charge if there is an accident. If its a routine boat (such as between a small island and the mainland), they can easily be the senior person (since the crew is enlisted). A LCDR or CDR would be invited to the bridge, but rightly midshipmen were ignored by the crew. Me and my buddies would sit right on the edge of officer seating and be inconspicuous, especially if we'd been told to disappear after lunch by our supervisor. We would joke "ha ha, MIDN Academy is actually in charge of this boat". However, in the late 90s there was a boat grounding in Italy and a midshipman belowdecks was found guilty of dereliction of duty (not being on the bridge is cut and dry dereliction). When I returned a few years later, the crew was very careful to invite the senior MIDN or ENS. It was up to you whether you went up, not clear how you add any value when they know the area 500x better than you. I knew guys who didn't ride off-peak times because they didn't want to take the risk.

My commanding officer in this situation avoided a grounding (he rated a private smaller boat to support a wardroom outing). As it was an unusual route at night, the pilot was going straight for some rocks until he intervened. CO was right to be paranoid, would have ended his career.

Response by MAJ Bob Firth made May 13 at 2021 12:06 PM

MAJ Bob Firth — Thu, 13 May 2021 12:06:10 -0400

Yes, but when I was a cadet I never had any negative experiences interacting with the enlisted side of the house. Mutual respect was something we all took for granted. Not sure why this is such an issue now. We had senior NCOs in ROTC, and they were clearly in charge in order to train us. Not one of us would ever dream of challenging them, but they also were very tactful in getting the job done.

Response by LTC Jesse Edwards made May 13 at 2021 12:50 PM

LTC Jesse Edwards — Thu, 13 May 2021 12:50:07 -0400

I went to BCT in 1976 and ended up becoming a cadet through ROTC. In 1979, I went to Cadet Troop Leadership Training (CTLT or something like that) wearing my dot. I was assigned to an Infantry BCT unit at Fort Benning. How I interacted with the BCT Soldiers was extremely different than how I interacted with the NCOs. With the NCOs, I felt like I was there to be trained and acted accordingly.

This turned out to become a necessity because one of my BCT Drill Sergeants from 1976 was a senior NCO in the company I was assigned. It was great getting to know him from an angle of partner rather than just being a trainee.

Response by SFC Sfc Darwin Maring, USA Ret made May 13 at 2021 4:43 PM

SFC Sfc Darwin Maring, USA Ret — Thu, 13 May 2021 16:43:21 -0400

But - Do they out rank Warrant Officers?

Response by SGT Jay Davis made May 13 at 2021 5:39 PM

SGT Jay Davis — Thu, 13 May 2021 17:39:53 -0400

All depends
If you are teaching staff you have authoritative power that means they must listen and learn

Response by CMSgt William Reed made May 13 at 2021 6:50 PM

CMSgt William Reed — Thu, 13 May 2021 18:50:27 -0400

Cadets at the Service Academies do. ROTC Cadets I don't know.

Response by SFC Darrell Wiegand made May 13 at 2021 9:16 PM

SFC Darrell Wiegand — Thu, 13 May 2021 21:16:51 -0400

Cadets don't have a recognized rank in the military. They are nothing but Cadets until they graduate and take the oath of office and are presented with the rank of 2nd Lt.

Response by SFC Darrell Wiegand made May 13 at 2021 9:19 PM

SFC Darrell Wiegand — Thu, 13 May 2021 21:19:30 -0400

Read the regulations on rank structure in the military. Cadets rank is not there, therefore don't hold any rank in the military.

Response by Jerry Rivas made May 17 at 2021 7:19 AM

Jerry Rivas — Mon, 17 May 2021 07:19:49 -0400

I will always remember a brand new 2nd Lieutenant who was so intimidated by my father who was a mean Puerto-Rican 1st Sgt. , that he kept calling dad "SIR". Not exactly on subject, just a fond memory. RIP !st Sgt German Rivas-Cortes

Response by CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana made May 17 at 2021 9:04 AM

CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana — Mon, 17 May 2021 09:04:09 -0400

Many moons ago, at Fort Benning in Georgia, during OCS, as a Senior Officer Candidate, our Tech Sergeant carefully ingrained into us that technically we were just shy of lieutenants, yet above NCOes; however, he made it crystal-clear that we must not try pulling rank on any non-commissioned officer till we pinned on rank with butter bars. This was the most useful advice we received prior to graduation.

Response by Maj John Bell made May 17 at 2021 10:10 AM

Maj John Bell — Mon, 17 May 2021 10:10:23 -0400

I'll speak from the service academy side, specifically USNA. After completing plebe year you go on your first "cruise." You are in the role of an unrated seaman apprentice. You should expect to have that much authority (essentially none). After completing your third year, you are in the role of a junior division officer, and have the temporary authority of that billet. Just like an actually commissioned green junior officer, you'd be a damn fool to not consult with the SNCO's and NCO's in the division. As far as the respect given, both sides of the equation should expect to get what they give.

My first cruise, the LPO I worked for clearly didn't like midshipmen, but he also clearly didn't like unrated seamen. I was treated no better and no worse than the seamen under his charge. It is what I expected.

I had a really good experience on my last cruise as a midshipmen The Senior Chief was cordial, polite, and treated me as good as any junior commissioned officer could or should expect. Day one he made it clear he felt a responsibility to give me as good start at being a good junior officer, as long as I was willing to learn. He kept me on the steep part of the learning curve every minute we were on duty, and spent more time than I had any right to expect after we secured for the day, to go over any rough spots or questions, and plan for the next day. He remained a "pen pal" mentor for the rest of my time in service.

Response by MAJ Mark Bolton made May 17 at 2021 3:19 PM

MAJ Mark Bolton — Mon, 17 May 2021 15:19:18 -0400

My thoughts are if they feel the need to “pull rank” on someone, regardless of rank, the Senior ROTC Cadet Commander (LTC) or Senior Enlisted (MSG) should reconsider commissioning them! As a previous ROTC Assistant Professor of Military Science (APMS) I’d ALWAYS stress the importance of never forgetting where you came from and leading by example in everything you say and do. The majority of professional NCOs that are in our ranks will know how to address them...without disrespect!! My 2 cents:).

Response by Cpl John Doe made May 17 at 2021 4:34 PM

Cpl John Doe — Mon, 17 May 2021 16:34:44 -0400

personally i think all people who want to be an officer in the military should be required to go through regular boot camp and go out to the "fleet" as a e-2 for 1 year before they can go to officer training or get their commission..why???. so they will understand what the life of an enlisted is all about, always fun to see butter bars running around trying to be all salty fresh out of the academy. your rank commands a certain respect, but as a person you have to earn true respect of your peers and those you out rank. otherwise you will just be that A-hole officer no one likes or that A-hole SSGT no one likes either.

Response by MAJ Lyle F. Padilla made May 21 at 2021 4:30 PM

MAJ Lyle F. Padilla — Fri, 21 May 2021 16:30:32 -0400

Army ROTC Cadets who are in the Simultaneous Membership Program (SMP) with the National Guard or a Reserve Troop Program Unit (TPU) are carried on the unit rosters as E-5s and paid at that pay grade unless they had attained a higher rank prior to enrolling in ROTC. They wear cadet rank insignia and are extended most officer courtesies while drilling and at Annual Training and are generally given leadership positions, but at least technically don't outrank E-6s or higher..

Response by SP5 Derick Johnsohne made May 23 at 2021 12:02 AM

SP5 Derick Johnsohne — Sun, 23 May 2021 00:02:21 -0400

i dont know the regs, but i dont think so, unless maybe if one was detached to fill in a temp position of leadership ??

Response by 1SG Mitchell Smith made May 23 at 2021 3:46 PM

1SG Mitchell Smith — Sun, 23 May 2021 15:46:32 -0400

If you have a sharp LT or CO, I usually directed them to see either one. If that didn't work, I directed them to the BC/CSM.....because as First Shrirt I ran the Company and i made the CO job easy.

If a cadet entered my company it was First for Wisdom, Knowledge and Understanding of what/where leadership started and if his eyes and ears were open this was a Great start of what A GOOD COMMAND TEAM meant. But, if they insisted on letting his bar Flash.....this usually ended with a UGLY Photograph of them working extremely hard.

Response by MAJ John Moran made Jun 17 at 2021 1:33 PM

MAJ John Moran — Thu, 17 Jun 2021 13:33:11 -0400

No. Cadets do not outrank NCO’s.

Period. Full stop.

“Cadet” is a training rank, not an operational rank.

Meaning that in training, a cadet MAY have temporary authority over an NCO, based on duty position.

Example: Does an E6 Ranger School Instructor “outrank” a 2LT Ranger School student? No, clearly not. Does that E6 RI have temporary training authority over that O1 while in Ranger School? Yes.

Likewise, a Cadet may be an “acting Platoon Leader” and have training authority over the NCO’s in that platoon, and those cadets will be addressed as Sir or Ma’am based on the courtesies of the service, but “Cadet”, “Candidate” etc. is not a rank, and a Cadet has no command authority under AR 100-1 or the UCMJ.

Response by PO1 Kevin Dougherty made Jun 17 at 2021 9:53 PM

PO1 Kevin Dougherty — Thu, 17 Jun 2021 21:53:30 -0400

Yes, just like JOs. Technically they out ranked me, but when I was Electronics LPO both the JOs and myself were instructed by our Commanding Officer that they were there to learn and to help if needed, but that it was my department and my equipment, and they were not to interfere with the day to day operations. I will say that most were very good and we had great working relationships. There was this one however ... but that's a tale for another day. I heard through back channels that he ended up being a six and out, never getting beyond LTJG.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2021 9:46 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 18 Jun 2021 09:46:00 -0400

I recall back in my enlisted days, there was once a cadet showed up in our unit doing some kind training with us and demands salute from the enlisted lol

Response by COL John Power made Jun 18 at 2021 11:21 AM

COL John Power — Fri, 18 Jun 2021 11:21:23 -0400

Technically Yes, practically, No. Cadets have no official authority for anything as regards regular forces. However there are instances, and not uncommon, where they are given authority. An example might be when a senior cadet is in training with a unit that is desperately short of officers. For the few weeks they are there they might be given the responsibility of a platoon leader and with that comes the necessary informal authority. As an aside, this site seems to often be populated by guard house lawyers who worry about minor matters and want authoritative and regulatory answers. My advice is to get professional and expect others to do the same. Counsel them to do so. If that doesn't work hope they get out as soon as possible. Who needs them?

Response by SGT Joseph Alanzo made Jun 23 at 2021 8:20 PM

SGT Joseph Alanzo — Wed, 23 Jun 2021 20:20:14 -0400

oh hell no a cadets don't non commissioned officers or a c.w. no way

Response by MSgt Damon Andrews made Jun 24 at 2021 11:32 PM

MSgt Damon Andrews — Thu, 24 Jun 2021 23:32:49 -0400

We had cadets assisting the Training Instructors during the old 6 week BMT in June and July. Cadet‘s D and R marched us to the confidence course. When the Cadets released us to run to the first obstacle they didn’t realize the we would run directly through a flight of cadets marching by being led by a Major. Cadet R was the senior cadet and was prior-enlisted. When he realized what happened he ran to the Major and locked to attention! I don’t know what was said. I just heard the major say "FIX IT!!!!!"

Response by CPO Daniel Cassell made Jun 27 at 2021 11:50 AM

CPO Daniel Cassell — Sun, 27 Jun 2021 11:50:37 -0400

I have had many Midshipmen assigned to me for their 2week "Summer Cruise", They do not outrank any enlisted until they are commiissioned!

Response by CPT William Jones made Jun 27 at 2021 3:18 PM

CPT William Jones — Sun, 27 Jun 2021 15:18:46 -0400

Answer is no they do not. However they are working on a commission and next time you see them they probably will. I would take good care of them and it belittle them in any way, any place, or any time. Just help train them well.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2021 8:48 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Jun 2021 08:48:06 -0400

No.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Jul 3 at 2021 5:23 PM

Capt Seid Waddell — Sat, 03 Jul 2021 17:23:39 -0400

I recall being very uncomfortable as a new 2LT supposedly outranking men with a decade or two of experience. I had a SMSgt and a CWO4 reporting to me officially, but I looked to them for advice and assistance primarily, and didn't get in their way unnecessarily in running the day-to-day operations. Discretion is the better part of wisdom in dealing with that situation.

The case of cadets is even more tenuous; they would be wise to watch and listen more than they speak until they learn their craft.

Response by COL Frank Siltman made Jul 10 at 2021 12:18 PM

COL Frank Siltman — Sat, 10 Jul 2021 12:18:50 -0400

Yes.

Response by SGT Michael Koukaras made Jul 11 at 2021 8:40 AM

SGT Michael Koukaras — Sun, 11 Jul 2021 08:40:54 -0400

Actually, they are correct. In accordance with AR 600-20 table 1-2 shows the Cadet ranking below the Warrent Officer but above Sergeant Major of the Army. Now it is usually considered poor form for a Cadet to "pull rank" on senior enlisted as they are there to learn from those NCO'S.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 11 at 2021 10:23 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 Jul 2021 10:23:20 -0400

I might have commented on this some time ago. So, having said that, I say; cadets are there to learn. While the cadet has no actual rank, be sure to treat them with respect while assisting them with learning. That cadet you train today might be your commander in the future.

Response by MAJ Craig Gilkison made Jul 11 at 2021 11:58 AM

MAJ Craig Gilkison — Sun, 11 Jul 2021 11:58:41 -0400

Is 'cadet' on the chart of NCO ranks? Is Cadet on the chart of Commissioned or Warrant ranks. Not commissioned? No appointment as an NCO. A cadet outranks no one. You don't get rank until you earn it, direct commissions excepted.

Response by MAJ Craig Gilkison made Jul 11 at 2021 12:02 PM

MAJ Craig Gilkison — Sun, 11 Jul 2021 12:02:46 -0400

No. They don't outrank anyone until they are commissioned or receive a warrant or an appointment as an NCO. Point out "Cadet" on the chart of ranks or shut TF Up Cadet. I earned my stripes then I earned my commission. You haven't earned crappola.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2021 12:01 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 12 Jul 2021 00:01:42 -0400

I refer to them as Ma'am or Sir, as per regulation, and yes they do "outrank" NCOs. Baby zeros most usually don't really have much to say to NCOs, particularly bitter disgruntled combat Vets, not in their chain of command. My -Os- wouldn't approve of me associating with them, and or them giving me orders. I recently saw a bunch at an Army post, little gold and silver Dots. I avoided them like the plague, and advised my troops to give them a wide berth. A couple of attractive young female baby zeros, came through the chow hall. One of my guys was looking pretty hard at them. He got counseled rapidly, and advised to stay away and or suffer greatly. In my experience, I've only seen a couple and spoke to even fewer cadets. I don't typically have much to say to officers to begin with, and respectfully only occasionally interact with the ones in my chain of command, on a "have to" basis.

Response by SGT M C made Jul 12 at 2021 9:19 AM

SGT M C — Mon, 12 Jul 2021 09:19:58 -0400

Cadets don't even outrank e-1's they have no rank they are 'Cadets" Plebes if you will. When they graduate and are commissioned then that is a different story

Response by CMDCM Gene Treants made Jul 12 at 2021 2:25 PM

CMDCM Gene Treants — Mon, 12 Jul 2021 14:25:57 -0400

I know that even a first-year Midshipman is technically senior to any enlisted person, but they have to learn from someone. If they report to any command or even in the Academy, they are wise to listen to Enlisted Leaders. Once they become Ensigns, if they were wise Midshipmen, they then become trainable O-1s and progress up the leader to reach the ranks of Admirals. Ask any Admiral if they had good mentors along the way and they will point out their Chiefs more often than anyone else who mentored them. Yes, Cadets and Midshipmen may technically outrank us, but not if they want a successful career.

BTW, I lived for the day any Middie, any year thought s/he was senior to me!

Response by Cpl Brian Escobar made Jul 14 at 2021 1:53 PM

Cpl Brian Escobar — Wed, 14 Jul 2021 13:53:24 -0400

Oh God Bless Your Heart. LMAO!

Response by SGT Burt Greenfield made Jul 15 at 2021 7:39 PM

SGT Burt Greenfield — Thu, 15 Jul 2021 19:39:57 -0400

Where do I find the film I would love to see it

Response by PO1 Todd McMillin made Jul 26 at 2021 2:19 PM

PO1 Todd McMillin — Mon, 26 Jul 2021 14:19:23 -0400

Midshipman/Cadets have made the mistake of addressing Senior Enlisted with disrespect and unprofessionalism.

Before there were Cellphones and other items to records this; I've seen a few get "Salty" wind up being caught in the PAIN(T) Locker and had their attitude adjusted with some physical motivation.It's usually a Chief (E-7 or higher) or Warrant Officer who signs off on this kind of adjustment to make sure that Midshipmen learn to respect the Enlisted.

Unfortunately; we're seeing more and more of them getting away with it because of social media. But also getting caught and their Instructors giving them the "Boot to The Head" to adjust their behavior and conduct. My favorite is when the MTS returnees to the Fleet (Master Training Specialists) can and will use their Instructor Voice on Midshipmen to square them away and being an E-5/E-6 and their faces drop realizing that the MTS does "outrank" them as a Instructor.

Response by TSgt David Olson made Jul 29 at 2021 5:12 PM

TSgt David Olson — Thu, 29 Jul 2021 17:12:26 -0400

When I was an Air Force T I at Lackland AFB, I had an AF academy cadet assigned to one flight, for the entire six week period. He was fascinated that I could produce an airman in six weeks. He measured that against his four years to become an officer. Regarding his “status” he was attached to learn and observe. My trainees called him sir and gave him the same respect they accorded me.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2021 12:54 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Jul 2021 00:54:56 -0400

No as you technically are not an Officer yet because you have not been appointed by the President of the US (which technically once that happens then you are an Officer) You are a "trainee" to become an Officer.

Response by SSG Daniel Seymour made Aug 3 at 2021 4:21 PM

SSG Daniel Seymour — Tue, 03 Aug 2021 16:21:55 -0400

they are Cadets they are in training mode and that's that!

Response by CPT Rick Cooper made Aug 9 at 2021 12:13 PM

CPT Rick Cooper — Mon, 09 Aug 2021 12:13:24 -0400

Prior to my graduation from OCS my father a retired 0-7 gave me a piece of sage advice.

'Listen to the guy with the stripes and rockets on his sleeve. He didn't get them out of a cereal box. Pay attention and learn from guys like him."

It's something that should be taught to every Cadet and Officer Candidate. It should also be reinforced to all junior officers by their unit commanders.

Response by CPT William Jones made Aug 9 at 2021 6:28 PM

CPT William Jones — Mon, 09 Aug 2021 18:28:28 -0400

Generally the answer is no. However that being said they are training to be officers so one must remember that the next time you see them They will be an officer and they will outrank all EM and Warrants. Quick personnal story I was in ROTC and had an upperclassman always picking on me I didnt study enough and left the university and joined the NG and in a couple years completed OCS and volunteered for active duty served and made Cpn and ended up a company Commander in Germany. My first day there this 1LT comes in to introduce himself to new CO. it had been about 4 years he didnt recognize me but I said Welcom Lt ++ then he recognized me. So you might runn across that nobody later and they will remember.

Response by SSG Carlos Garcia made Aug 20 at 2021 6:58 PM

SSG Carlos Garcia — Fri, 20 Aug 2021 18:58:27 -0400

The answer to this question is, "NO." Cadets aren't under direct commission by the DOD, nor authorized by the Joint Chief of Staff. In fact, JrROTCs and ROTC cadets can't even order an enlisted/ no-rank personnel. The last one who try that on me, I demanded where in hell is that found in any Army Regulation, or if he had a major brain-fart. With that set I had him doing Push-ups until I got tired.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2021 11:52 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 Aug 2021 11:52:46 -0400

Funny. The 4th Infantry Division had a change of command, the other day. I was walking around the outside of the division HQs, making my way back to my battalion and came face-to-face with a ROTC cadet from one of the local colleges. As soon as I saw the black dot on her chest, I immediately recognized her status and rendered a hand salute. Keep in mind, I’m a SFC with 15 years and change in service. This young lady likely wasn’t even in elementary school when I joined. (I figure her to be no more than about 20 years old.) She promptly said, “oh no, I’m just a cadet.” I told her that by regs, she still out ranks me. At the moment, the PFC who works for me was walking with me. I saw an opportunity to teach a couple of young Soldiers in that moment and I did it with a smile on my face. That young cadet is going to be a PL in the near future and I’m sure she’s going to have a SFC as her PSG. I wanted her to know that she can trust that SFC to steer her in the right direction. I also wanted my PFC to know that you don’t treat cadets as “cadidiots.” Yup. The bad cadets will eventually make themselves known and get flushed. But then, maybe I’m in a position to be the difference maker between a good one and a bad one.

Response by LT Sean Wheeler made Aug 23 at 2021 11:31 AM

LT Sean Wheeler — Mon, 23 Aug 2021 11:31:06 -0400

I signed up at 17 as an E-1 in the Navy and retired as an O-3. As far as I'm concerened they have no rank, they are not commissioned nor have they signed an enlistment contract and and they have not earned any rank. Same with officer spouses. One admiral I worked for as a jr enlisted guy told me he spoke at the officer's wives club on base and told them the same thing, to stop pretending their marriage gives them any authority. His wife in particular, was told to stop disregarding the directions of younng enlisted at the front gate simply because she had the blue sticker and star on her windshield. After thinking about it, he told me she understood and the behavior changed. When I was commissioned as an Ensign, it was the warrant officers who helped me the most to make the transition as I went from E-4 to O-1, and they would call people out and then turn the conversation over to me to finish it, and I would. Having that experienced person standing beside me guiding the situation taught me how to correct people in a positive way. It also taught me how to work in real-world conflicts where I knew I needed the advice of senior enlisted folks to make wise decisions. Now I work in the ministry, and it's still an effective approach.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2021 2:30 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 Aug 2021 14:30:27 -0400

Cadets are not yet commissioned officers, so how can they outrank anyone but junior cadets. Cadets should be treated with respect. If a cadet tried to instruct me on a task, there would be a fair amount of entertainment.

Response by PO1 Michael Brouty made Aug 23 at 2021 8:04 PM

PO1 Michael Brouty — Mon, 23 Aug 2021 20:04:05 -0400

Noooooo... ! They don't onrank the civilian janitor. They aren't even weaned yet.

Response by SFC Kevin Strakal made Aug 24 at 2021 4:02 PM

SFC Kevin Strakal — Tue, 24 Aug 2021 16:02:08 -0400

Cadets are students learning how to be in the military. My experience as an NCO was that officers would bust our butts telling us to respect them "as if" they're an officer, however I don't think the UCMJ defines cadets as officers. Besides they haven't been awarded a rank by congress. Only congressional promotion exists for actual officers.

Response by 1LT David Wood made Aug 24 at 2021 5:01 PM

1LT David Wood — Tue, 24 Aug 2021 17:01:07 -0400

I don't think this question is about military law. That's pretty clear. It's really about lack of respect that some cadets show. I've seen 2LTs who are just as arrogant about that. I also did a two week stint as an ROTC cadet in the Cadet Troop Leadership Training program. I was put in "command" of an infantry platoon. I can only hope I came in with the proper attitude of "I'm here to learn from these soldiers." The same attitude I tried to keep throughout my Army career. I was also in the simultaneous membership program and was put in a position "equivalent" to an E5 in reserve CA unit. I learned a lot from that. I suspect more cadets could use that kind of training.

Response by PFC Johnny Adams made Aug 24 at 2021 6:49 PM

PFC Johnny Adams — Tue, 24 Aug 2021 18:49:44 -0400

Officer Cadet or Flight Cadet are the lowest steps of the Commissioned Officer Ranking. Hate them if you will but the do outrank all NCO's. Though they my not have the experience to know a rifle from a gun, a boat from a ship, or a plane from an air plane. They have their place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-commissioned_officer

Non-commissioned_officer

Response by MSgt Jack Cox made Aug 25 at 2021 12:27 PM

MSgt Jack Cox — Wed, 25 Aug 2021 12:27:21 -0400

I understand cadets have not received their commission and haven't taken their oath. I've always treated them with respect at least until I find out who their mother is.

Response by SSgt Cedric Hathway made Aug 25 at 2021 2:38 PM

SSgt Cedric Hathway — Wed, 25 Aug 2021 14:38:09 -0400

AH a midshipman tried to snag a extra beer when we came back to base from a week of training. Our company Gunny had already stated 2 beers per man. When the gunny stopped him, he put hands on the Gunny. As you can imagine the gunny didn't take kindly to that and the Middie found out why the Gunny was regimental boxing champ. He starting screaming for the MP's to arrest the Gunny (there were none around). The Regimental Commander just happened by and told the Middie he better pick the Navy when it came time and walked away with the Middie in tow. That was the last we ever saw of that particular Middie.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2021 11:35 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Aug 2021 23:35:59 -0400

I was an ROTC cadet who went to CTLT (cadet troop leadership training) in Mainz, GE in 1989. I led a platoon while there and I knew who was in charge - it wasn’t me. I was just the Platoon Leader, haha. That said, I had the honor to learn from some great Infantry NCOs and soldiers on what it took to be in charge. Later, I was a Platoon Leader in a CAV unit and was privileged to have NCOs that taught me what I needed to do to lead. I stuck my foot in my mouth a lot (and was chewed out by my Troop Commander for 3 or 4 months), but learned from that also. Twenty years later, as the Professor of Military Science at a large university, I mentored, developed, and then commissioned some fantastic Army leaders. I didn’t do this by telling them they outranked anyone, but by telling them they would learn from and work with NCOs. That their NCOs had to trust them and they needed to trust them and support their soldiers. I had to remove a cadet because he just could not get it through his head that he was NOT entitled to respect. He tried to tell a few Marine NCOs (in the Navy ROTC program to become Marine officers) that they could not correct him because he was a MSIII cadet and they were NCOs (he parked in a handicap spot). That wasn’t all he did for me to boot him, just a small part.

Response by PO2 Rob Waldrop made Aug 26 at 2021 8:40 AM

PO2 Rob Waldrop — Thu, 26 Aug 2021 08:40:22 -0400

This is almost a 'letter of the law' and 'spirit of the law' discussion. Yes I was an E-5, but as Range Master for small arms training I had authority over my trainers regardless of rank, but was still expected to show appropriate courtesies. While on my first ship I saw a cadet try to tell an E-7 who went thru boot camp and went to Vietnam how to do something... he didn't say a word just ignored her and when she tried to make an issue of it the command came down on the E-7's side because she didn't know what she was talking about. Best officers I ever saw kept their mouths shut except to ask questions on their cader cruises, and as ensign's they assumed senior and experienced enlisted knew more than they did.

Response by PFC John Roscoe made Aug 26 at 2021 11:22 AM

PFC John Roscoe — Thu, 26 Aug 2021 11:22:12 -0400

it's true.....you know like a newly-minted, ROTC, National Guard butter-bar outranks the Command Sergeant Major of the Army. Who wouldn't like to see him try to lock the CSM's heels?

Response by LCpl Nicholas Ackerson made Aug 26 at 2021 3:51 PM

LCpl Nicholas Ackerson — Thu, 26 Aug 2021 15:51:48 -0400

It depends on situation.
It depends on where they are at in the process.
I recommend addressing them properly and appropriately because sooner than later they will be in a position of power over your area of control and expertise.
Besides that, why play into someone else's problem.
There are more important issues at hand.
Be courteous.
Don't screw yourself by taking action that offend others.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 26 at 2021 7:41 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 26 Aug 2021 19:41:01 -0400

If any cadet thinks they are in charge in a unit, they have been mislead. The reg says they are in the chain of command, but the command says what they do. They are there to LEARN, not be in charge. Your job as an NCO is to teach them. Think of it like NCOES, when the had people who were not promoted yet. If someone of a lower rank than you was in charge of a lane, YOU do the right thing by acting like a good Soldier following orders. If they are a genuine problem, other than your pride, talk to the officer they are shadowing. They should be the one telling the to STFU with their power trip.
Also.....you're in garrison. Calm down.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2021 12:07 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Aug 2021 00:07:55 -0400

On a technicality alone. Watch them try to actually pull it though. It's an interesting sight

Response by SGT Leonard Frank made Aug 28 at 2021 4:27 PM

SGT Leonard Frank — Sat, 28 Aug 2021 16:27:42 -0400

believe it or not, the same thing happens in civilian life. I was a top rep but never took a mangement position, I was the bosses eyes and ears. We spoke at least once a day, he was over 3 hours away and had too much to do with budgets and high target branches so I was a big help. We hired a service manager and after about a week, he comes up to me and says what again is your position (lead sales rep) hump! I am the only one hear with MANAGER in his title, and I said yep you are lets see how that works out for you?
He lasted another couple weeks, got overwhelmed and his assistant had to take over ... again and as always did a good job.

Response by SFC Michael Lindenbusch made Aug 29 at 2021 12:46 AM

SFC Michael Lindenbusch — Sun, 29 Aug 2021 00:46:43 -0400

When I was still enlisted, rarely if ever saw any of them. One of the perks of staying almost exclusively in line units. Now I work at the Air Force Academy and the general feeling I get is that, no matter what the regulations actually say, the cadets understand where they actually stand. At least in the main.

Response by SFC Charles Kauffman made Aug 29 at 2021 1:49 AM

SFC Charles Kauffman — Sun, 29 Aug 2021 01:49:28 -0400

Absolutely NOT! They aren't paid members of the military, and hold no authority over any service member, NCO, or Officer.

Response by PFC Martin Potashner made Aug 30 at 2021 3:13 PM

PFC Martin Potashner — Mon, 30 Aug 2021 15:13:30 -0400

When I was in basic at fort Dix in 1956 we had 3 west point cadets on tdy they were idiots 1 climbed to the top rafter in a ww2 barracks with white gloves to test for dust then wanted company punishment for a smudge on his glove.

Response by MAJ Gregory Moon made Aug 31 at 2021 10:51 AM

MAJ Gregory Moon — Tue, 31 Aug 2021 10:51:12 -0400

Where cadets F up is that we often have 2 different things going on. They have a rank and yes they out rank NCOs. Kind of like brand new 2LT they too out rank NCOs. The cadets do not have a formal position within a unit. Besides experience and education a CSM has a boss who out ranks the Cadet by a lot . You don't mess with the CSM unless you prepared for the 06 bull behind him. The platoon sgt answers to his platoon leader and/or Company commander. When Cadets are in for their summer training they may be delegated some authority. Who ever delegated it sets the limit. So yes their rank should be respected by the soldiers they are working with as you would with any other but respect cuts both ways and their experience is lacking so guiding said cadets through conflicts is up to you and your soldiers.

Response by COL David Petray made Aug 31 at 2021 1:26 PM

COL David Petray — Tue, 31 Aug 2021 13:26:07 -0400

When I was a cadet, shortly after the Revolutionary War, we were taught that there were Army Regulations, Army tradition and unwritten but universally respected rules dealing with NCO’s. We were taught to keep our mouths shut and open our ears when a senior NCO was telling us the what ifs about the real Army. That served me very well and I became a Colonel with the help of many fine NCOs who I’ll never forget. It doesn’t mean I did whatever the sergeant said, but I listened and weighed the pros and cons. When I decided and the decision went against the NCO’s advise I would tell them why I went that way. But that was very infrequently. US soldiers are different than any other soldier in the world: British soldiers obey the higher command because that’s tradition; Chinese soldiers obey the Communist Party (failing to do so can result in your death), German soldiers (and many others) fight for their Father or Mother land. American soldiers fight because they believe its the right thing to do. And they do so with the expectation that their leaders are honest and forthright with them.

Response by SN Jeffrey White made Sep 11 at 2021 10:12 AM

SN Jeffrey White — Sat, 11 Sep 2021 10:12:54 -0400

In was fortunate during my time in the navy to never run into a midshipmen who wanted to go around bullying enlisted. At times the midshipmen might be in training on a watch and need to give operational orders, a commissioned officer was always giving that training .

That all said, our current system of officers and enlisted is outdated. Once appon a time it was believed that certain classes of people were better, and naturally should be in command. Furthermore, a good education is required to be an officer, along with the ability to read and write well.

Most of the reasons for this separation don't apply in our modern society with our modern education system. We should revamp the system. Make everyone start as enlisted then select officers from among the best.

Response by SSG Joel Galford made Sep 21 at 2021 9:45 PM

SSG Joel Galford — Tue, 21 Sep 2021 21:45:25 -0400

I just shake my head and laugh at those types. A bit of background, I spent 12 years enlisted with multiple combat deployments and just this semester in school decided I wanted to go back active, but on the officer side so I spent the summer getting into ROTC. I just quietly laugh when they chest bang like that, and pray one day they try to tell some salty pissed off NCO that their dot out ranks them.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2021 1:43 AM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Sep 2021 01:43:30 -0400

I wouldn't even one up a 1SG as a 2LT let alone a cadet who thinks he/she outranks the SMA.

Response by SGT Robert Andrews made Sep 22 at 2021 11:08 AM

SGT Robert Andrews — Wed, 22 Sep 2021 11:08:32 -0400

AR 600-20 COVERS THAT

Response by CWO3 Robert Fong made Sep 22 at 2021 1:11 PM

CWO3 Robert Fong — Wed, 22 Sep 2021 13:11:34 -0400

LT, here is my take on this one. Midshipmen neither quarter in the Officer's Berthing and neither do they berth in Chief's or Crew's berthing, they in fact have their own berthing. A Midshipman is exactly that. When we had tall sails, they bunked not in the Foc'sle nor in Officer's Qtrs. but bunked Midship between the Ship's Capenter and the Galley in 5' bunks and 4 to a berthing area so that should tell you where they rank. Fast forward the Midshipmen are at pay grade E-5. Now that does not seem to outrank a whole lot of things. From a common sense/career enhancement move they need to talk less and listen more. They are not familiar enough with things outside of the Academies to go around telling some E-6 which way the wind blows, nor is it considered a career enhancement move. So, their job is to learn, and they can't do that by blowing wind. A good Admiral latched on to some salty CPO and never let go and that's why they become First Lords of the Fleet. (Substitute your service's terms).

Response by SFC Jason Hodge made Sep 22 at 2021 4:50 PM

SFC Jason Hodge — Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:50:25 -0400

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2021 7:41 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Sep 2021 19:41:32 -0400

Regardless of what the regs say, my oath was to obey the orders of the “officers” appointed over me, not the cadets.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2021 9:17 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:17:01 -0400

Nope.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2021 9:35 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Sep 2021 21:35:37 -0400

No they do not.

Response by SPC Allan Bevevino made Sep 24 at 2021 9:05 AM

SPC Allan Bevevino — Fri, 24 Sep 2021 09:05:23 -0400

As a draftee in 1968, I thought it was odd that battle hardened old “Tops” with CIB’s on their chests from WW2 had to call a mama’s boy 2nd Lt. Sir!

Response by CW4 Robert Mixon made Sep 24 at 2021 11:06 AM

CW4 Robert Mixon — Fri, 24 Sep 2021 11:06:23 -0400

treat them as 2 lt.

Response by 1LT Caden Love made Sep 25 at 2021 2:15 AM

1LT Caden Love — Sat, 25 Sep 2021 02:15:02 -0400

What kind of Cadets are you getting? Because we were taught to respect NCOs. Cadets are technically still civilians.

Response by GySgt Richard Morrison made Sep 25 at 2021 2:20 AM

GySgt Richard Morrison — Sat, 25 Sep 2021 02:20:02 -0400

Not in my Marine Corps they don't!

Response by LTC Joey Rivera made Sep 25 at 2021 7:20 PM

LTC Joey Rivera — Sat, 25 Sep 2021 19:20:57 -0400

No, they absolutely do not outrank anyone except the fellow cadets in their class. The rank of cadet is an academic rank and is not recognized as a rank that accompanies UCMJ authority.

Response by SGM Ronald Cheatom made Sep 25 at 2021 7:32 PM

SGM Ronald Cheatom — Sat, 25 Sep 2021 19:32:44 -0400

I had the privilege of " teaching" the summer camps for both ROTC cadets, and a summer at West Point. The senior cadets had command of the cadet corp, but under no circumstances were they in command of regular army soldiers, unless they were assigned as an acting platoon leader, like an internship. This was told to us during briefings, before our interactions qith them. However, we did give them the respect we would give to our own officers, because eventually, during our careers, we would cross paths.

Response by SGT Hugh Bowman made Sep 25 at 2021 8:09 PM

SGT Hugh Bowman — Sat, 25 Sep 2021 20:09:59 -0400

Until they graduate and gain their commission. No. But I personally wouldn’t want to get on there bad side. And all of a sudden get a new platoon leader

Response by MSgt Don Dobbs made Sep 26 at 2021 3:36 PM

MSgt Don Dobbs — Sun, 26 Sep 2021 15:36:31 -0400

I can't answer for other branches but the Cadet in the USAF is treated and paid at the E5 pay grade. So they would be at the SSgt level with very little time in service and time in grade. I had this debate with a USAF Academy Cadet who thought he outranked all enlisted. Our Commander a Lt, Col explained it this way. Until the Cadet receives a commission he out ranks enlisted below the grade of E5 and any new cadets entering service after him. Otherwise he is a trainee and had best pay attention to all those who outrank him.

Response by COL William Oseles made Sep 26 at 2021 10:30 PM

COL William Oseles — Sun, 26 Sep 2021 22:30:38 -0400

The question is: have they been placed in the Chain of Command on orders?

Response by Sgt Wayne Horton made Oct 13 at 2021 9:14 PM

Sgt Wayne Horton — Wed, 13 Oct 2021 21:14:13 -0400

I retract my statement.

Response by CPO Michael Bohannon made Oct 27 at 2021 2:01 PM

CPO Michael Bohannon — Wed, 27 Oct 2021 14:01:05 -0400

Had this happen to me in 1985 when I was am HT2 had an Annapolis cadet demand that I and my compadres salute him "because he's an officer", he commenced to "berate" us to this fact when my Assistant Dept. Head, A mustang LCDR, came up and asked what was "the problem"? as the cadet "explained" his "problem" said LCDR asked if the cadet saluted officers at which time the "Plebe" snapped to and rendered a salute.........DCC(SW) Ret

Response by FN Charlie Spivey made Oct 27 at 2021 4:56 PM

FN Charlie Spivey — Wed, 27 Oct 2021 16:56:33 -0400

With the Coast Guard, you had "Cadet Cruises". That involved going along with the Cutter Eagle out of the Academy in New London. The Eagle is a 4 masted Barque that we got as a spoil of war from Germany. It was used as a Training ship there as well. There was a second one, but don't remember who got that one. Anyway, while cruising, the Cadets would spend time on the Eagle and time on the Cutter that was accompanying them, and they DID stand watches. They essentially had NO rank and I have seen one chewed out by an E2 that had to follow up on the Cadets Screw up.

Response by SFC Bob Coon made Oct 27 at 2021 8:49 PM

SFC Bob Coon — Wed, 27 Oct 2021 20:49:01 -0400

No however if you want your PL CO or BC to rip your ass you better respect them!

Response by LTC Dennis Rears made Oct 27 at 2021 8:54 PM

LTC Dennis Rears — Wed, 27 Oct 2021 20:54:59 -0400

I do not know/remember the regulations. In any event, a Cadet is in training and should not assert rank. I was a government civilian (GS-13) and a West Point cadet tried to bully me ( I was in my mid 30s) that he outrank me. At that time I was an USAR MAJ and a GS-13 (is the protocol equivenant to a MAJ). I ignored him and spoke to his CPT sponsor and it was over. That said if a cadet is not afforded the proper respect he needs to act.

Response by MAJ Tracy Pim made Oct 28 at 2021 2:39 PM

MAJ Tracy Pim — Thu, 28 Oct 2021 14:39:46 -0400

Last time I checked cadets have no rank in the military….therefore….they don’t even out rank An E-1

Response by MSgt Marlin Tatom made Nov 8 at 2021 4:35 AM

MSgt Marlin Tatom — Mon, 08 Nov 2021 04:35:06 -0500

Yeah, I am gonna say "no". The last time I looked at a rank chart for the USAF, it didn't have "KAYDET" on it. I don't know what those squiggles on their shoulder boards mean and if I am not mistaken, they are outside of the chain of command and have not been commissioned as officers YET. Once they are commissioned, I might give a crap what they think. Roast me if you want to, but we had one helping change an engine on an F-16 at Shaw in 1996 and he ended up covered in JP-8. He never talked trash again and he stayed there until we were finished. He might have thought he outranked every enlisted person on the post but he didn't outrank Lt Col Collins, the CC and one of the finest men I have ever worked for. All of maintenance would have followed Col Collins to the gates of hell without asking him why. God, I miss that man.

Response by SGT Charles Bartell made Nov 28 at 2021 2:39 PM

SGT Charles Bartell — Sun, 28 Nov 2021 14:39:32 -0500

watch out for them when they finally get that Bar. they are the one's that thing they know evry thing.

Response by CW3 Joseph Lawrence made Dec 4 at 2021 6:14 PM

CW3 Joseph Lawrence — Sat, 04 Dec 2021 18:14:40 -0500

I never had the opportunity to see a cadet deal with an NCO but I did get a chance to see a newly appointed Second Lieutenant deal with a First Sergeant. He was fresh out of the Academy and usually they are pretty tough officers but when the First Sergeant was done with him he had some new insights about his ancestors that would curl anyone's hair. Had another opportunity to see a Battalion Commander of a Maintenance Battalion have to deal with his Warrant Officers. He said if there were Warrants in his next command he would retire early. He told me he had enough of these walking Technical Manuals.

Response by 1SG Henry McDonald made Dec 6 at 2021 8:44 PM

1SG Henry McDonald — Mon, 06 Dec 2021 20:44:09 -0500

I once was a cadet in an ROTC program. I didn’t feel like I outranked anyone. The cadre there certainly didn’t train us that we outranked anyone in the full time military. Once we were in the third year we were more or less under contract and were pledged but we held cadet rank only which isn’t in the rank structure of the military. I don’t believe that cadets outrank full time service members

Response by LCDR Frankie Alvarez made Dec 7 at 2021 9:21 AM

LCDR Frankie Alvarez — Tue, 07 Dec 2021 09:21:52 -0500

It seems to me that ever other post on this site is about rank and NCO vs officer. My short valueless opinion is if it’s a story or if you have to ask then both the officer and the enlisted have failed. Even thinking about it is a waste of time and shows a lack of understanding of what rank is really about. Rank is a position that gives you a set of responsibilities and information. The respect is up and down in and out period. Take any disagreement out of the public eye and fix it

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Dec 7 at 2021 9:58 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Tue, 07 Dec 2021 21:58:09 -0500

If I saw a cadet trying to use their muscle, I would tell them immediately to stand down, and I would not be nice about it.

Response by SSG Thomas Elliott made Dec 20 at 2021 12:11 PM

SSG Thomas Elliott — Mon, 20 Dec 2021 12:11:04 -0500

Had a Cadidiot who was giving orders to troops/NCO's that were against regs/sop and then he complained to the COC he wasn't getting the respect he deserves due his rank, the response from the LTC was spectacular, "You are Temporary, Probationary and supernumerary and i will end your pitiful career before it starts before i would go after any NCO/Soldier on your word alone, you are here to learn so shut up and learn or i will send you packing" Every other Dot we got was ok at their job.

Response by SSG Tim Reddick made Dec 20 at 2021 12:15 PM

SSG Tim Reddick — Mon, 20 Dec 2021 12:15:23 -0500

We had an issue with one finally had to take to Command, he informed the cadet that he was here as a guest and needed to act like it.

Response by SSG Ralph Watkins made Dec 20 at 2021 4:09 PM

SSG Ralph Watkins — Mon, 20 Dec 2021 16:09:43 -0500

Our unit had people out training ROTC cadets for their field training. Some of the cadets tried to pull rank on our SP4s. Our SP4s laughed at them. Since our people were the cadre, that meant any attitude they got from the cadets made for exceptionally miserable training. The entitled one may be told to go set up in an area with poison ivy, near an old field latrine, or in a snake infested area. One night the cadets were lined up to do an ambush. One of our crazy female SP4s snuck up behind them & started growling loudly like a bear. The entire line of cadets took off running. We wanted to fail them but the command just laughed & passed them anyways.

Response by Cpl Christopher Bishop made Dec 20 at 2021 4:41 PM

Cpl Christopher Bishop — Mon, 20 Dec 2021 16:41:11 -0500

Nope. They are still in training modes.

Response by Cpl Christopher Bishop made Dec 20 at 2021 4:55 PM

Cpl Christopher Bishop — Mon, 20 Dec 2021 16:55:47 -0500

Who cares? I mean isn’t this just a who get to bark orders at whom kinda thing? Its so juvenile. Im not bowing down to anyone who only went to college to avoid war.

However i would give them every opportunity to demonstrate their experience (or lack of) and leadership skills (or lack of) whenever in a position to do so. If they perform well, great. If not, the collective will see the NCOs performance, and learn the stupidity of “pulling rank”.

If the same applies to new 01s who are completed school and on Active Duty, then certainly applies to trainees.

Response by SGT Christopher Sigafoos made Dec 24 at 2021 4:04 PM

SGT Christopher Sigafoos — Fri, 24 Dec 2021 16:04:33 -0500

This is actually more difficult to answer than most questions. Cadet is a training rank. AR 600-20, Army Command Policy; which outlines the rank structure; lists cadet as a special pay grade that is, technically, outranking the Enlisted. The caveat to this is that, as a training rank, they only have the authority specifically delegated to them by the command. And the command will always have the senior NCO's back.

Response by MSG Tony Hughes made Dec 25 at 2021 8:20 PM

MSG Tony Hughes — Sat, 25 Dec 2021 20:20:45 -0500

In no way, shape or form does a cadet outrank any nco, warrant officer or commissioned officer.
Cadet is an individual enrolled in a military academy working towards earning a commission in the military. I have dealt with cadets in the past. The ranks they receive or wear during academy training is not a rank recognized in the military rank structure, so please, quit falling into this idiotic belief.
However as non commissioned officers your job is to lead, train and motivate. No need to have ill feelings towards a cadet, they just have different military ambitions than yours. One thing not to forget, that cadet may be your plt ldr or commander in the near future.
I have worked with many 2nd lieutenants, i was able to feel a sense of accomplishment seeing some wear the rank of major as they progressed in service. Their NCO is basically a leadership trainer when first assigned to a platoon

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2022 3:14 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Jan 2022 15:14:01 -0500

Yes, and no. They're less than warrant officers, but higher than ncos

Response by SPC Matt Ovaska made Jan 23 at 2022 8:15 AM

SPC Matt Ovaska — Sun, 23 Jan 2022 08:15:19 -0500

I was told by a Marine volunteer at the front desk at the VA hospital to use the chain of command when I asked to talk to the patient advocate. I became a civilian 50 years ago and practice the chain of command UP and Down, in civilian life. A lot of folks forget and go straight to the one DOWN the chain needing correction there by, bypassing the chain. Now you have created several unhappy people. Morale disappears.
I had an E6 bypass the company "TOP" NCO by assigning me sand bag detail for a week. I was not under his command. TOP said to fill the bags and he would take care of it. I was puzzled with the response and filled the sand bags. I trusted TOP to take care of it... Months latter when the E6 left, TOP let me read the scathing evaluation, which he wrote to forever be recorded in the E6's permanent file. The E-6 might as well leave the Army; which he should, due to his lack of leadership skills.
CO's should always go DOWN the chain of command with issues and never pull rank to cut in line at the PX etc. Many 90 day wonders only lasted a few weeks in combat because OCS never taught the DOWN chain of command principle. Nuf said.

Response by Amn Erik Jacobsen made Jan 23 at 2022 10:05 PM

Amn Erik Jacobsen — Sun, 23 Jan 2022 22:05:07 -0500

I got out in January 1992, but this is how I look at it. I don’t remember being taught any military customs when it came to cadets. So, I think that if I was I was in uniform and I came across a cadet, I would not salute him/her.

Response by CW2 Matt Baum made Jan 24 at 2022 8:54 AM

CW2 Matt Baum — Mon, 24 Jan 2022 08:54:25 -0500

I learned this from surprise when I was in OCS and was saluted by a CW4. I thought he was out of his mind. Turned out he was correct, as nutty as I think it may be. Who knew I would eventually resign my Commission and become a Chief?

Response by LCpl Robert Michaud made Jan 24 at 2022 3:50 PM

LCpl Robert Michaud — Mon, 24 Jan 2022 15:50:32 -0500

When I was in the Marines a cadet was a student, which means they are still civilians and hold no actual rank in the military. They receive their rank once the complete the academy.
I actually had a run in with two Naval Academy cadets when I was in NC. They wanted myself and another Marine to salute them (they just got off the bus to take a tour). We laughed and informed them they are not officers in the Corp. As we were informing them of this an Officer walked up behind them. We saluted the Officer and the cadets said that is better. The officer told them we were saluting him and not them. He walked the cadets back to the bus and informed their chaperone of the situation and very loudly said if he sees it again he was not going to allow anyone off the bus.

Response by Sgt Michael Sechrist made Jan 25 at 2022 2:45 PM

Sgt Michael Sechrist — Tue, 25 Jan 2022 14:45:05 -0500

No way Jose!

Response by Sgt Joseph Cavalari made Jan 27 at 2022 11:32 AM

Sgt Joseph Cavalari — Thu, 27 Jan 2022 11:32:02 -0500

Students of the Academies are not commissioned until they graduate from the Academy they're attending... That should tell you something ! Also, they are awarded enlisted ranks as they progress through their Academy based on the year and honor awards... It's my understanding that these ranks are meaningless in terms of the real Army...
Shouldn't that be "End of Story", or is this old Marine wrong ???

Response by SPC John Williams made Jan 27 at 2022 11:59 AM

SPC John Williams — Thu, 27 Jan 2022 11:59:31 -0500

I think technically they do, but they are dumbasses if they push the issue. Kind of like the man that constantly reminds his wife that the "man" is the head of the house. Hope he enjoys eating fish heads.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2022 12:16 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Jan 2022 12:16:02 -0500

I like to think of it as the 2nd Lt who out ranks the CSM

Response by CPT Eireanne Russ made Jan 28 at 2022 6:41 PM

CPT Eireanne Russ — Fri, 28 Jan 2022 18:41:45 -0500

When I was a Platoon Leader, XO, and Company Commander I would greet each ROTC or USMA cadet that came in for their summer stint and tell them there were two things they needed to set in stone in their mind: First, they were practicing at being an officer, they were in fact filling the role of an officer but had yet to receive their commission. As such they would outrank the NCOs around them. More importantly, they needed to remember that point and act accordingly-no hanging with the troops, no buddy-buddy behavior, no being just one of the boys and NO LORDING rank over their NCOs.

Second, they needed to remember that all of their military science classes, all their leadership training and all their feelings of accomplishment were like a grain of sand on a sea shore compared to the platoon sergeant they would be paired with. Therefore they would do well to watch, listen and learn at the feet of wisdom and learn from a master warrior. At that time many of the PSGs were Vietnam vets.

Response by PO3 Dale Olson made Feb 1 at 2022 8:41 AM

PO3 Dale Olson — Tue, 01 Feb 2022 08:41:30 -0500

I had this happen on a Midshipmen Cruise. I was charged with showing 4 of them the inner workings of CIC. The discussion somehow got around to how to address them. So, I bet them I could do more pushups than 1 of them, so pick your best guy. The number was 20... I then ask them which arm, right or left. What they didn't know is that I had been lifting weights for 2 years and at that time I could bench press 325. So, I didn't address them as Sir.

Response by Cpl Eric Ramsey made Mar 23 at 2022 9:14 AM

Cpl Eric Ramsey — Wed, 23 Mar 2022 09:14:49 -0400

Cadet= Student. A student that may become a officer. A student had no military rank. Officer or enlisted. They have rank amongst their fellow students, that's it.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2022 2:37 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Mar 2022 14:37:23 -0400

Um…, no hey don’t. Remember they have not received a commission yet and are really college students in uniform. They also are at an E-5 pay grade

Response by LTC Betty Holm made Mar 27 at 2022 10:24 PM

LTC Betty Holm — Sun, 27 Mar 2022 22:24:49 -0400

In the National Guard I went through a program called Simultaneous membership where I was paid as an E5 in the NG but a cadet in the ROTC program. I was fortunate because I was assigned to a W4 who showed me the respect of an officer but taught me as an NCO in all aspects of my workload. I credit him for my work ethic and my Success as an officer. I often tell people he taught me how to become an NCO before I put my Butterbars on. Thankyou for all you taught me Chief Bittick.

Response by CPL Jarod Depastene made Mar 28 at 2022 12:56 AM

CPL Jarod Depastene — Mon, 28 Mar 2022 00:56:42 -0400

I had a cadet try to pull that "where's my salute" shit on me when I was a CPL, once. I made him wish he was never born with the ass-reaming I gave him for it. And my commander told said cadet to pack his shit and go back to college, right afterwards.

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made Mar 28 at 2022 4:39 PM

A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney — Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:39:03 -0400

Of Course Cadets Out Rank NCO's....
Truth IS However, They Out Rank NOBODY Because They're Officers In TRAINING, Not Officers...
Cadet - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadet
A cadet is an officer trainee or candidate. The term is frequently used to refer to those training to become an officer in the military, often a person who is a junior trainee. Its meaning may vary between countries which can include youths in voluntary youth organisations.

This Is MY Definition:
AKA "Little Pricks With Big Imaginations"

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made Mar 28 at 2022 4:40 PM

A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney — Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:40:52 -0400

Not ONLY "No", But "HELL NO"...

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made Mar 28 at 2022 7:19 PM

A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney — Mon, 28 Mar 2022 19:19:30 -0400

CADETS Actually Don't Out Rank Any Military Because They're TRAINEES For A Rank IN The Military...
Cadets Don't Even Out Rank An Enclosed Fart In a Space Suit... ...

Response by Maj John Bell made Mar 28 at 2022 8:07 PM

Maj John Bell — Mon, 28 Mar 2022 20:07:50 -0400

This discussion seems to pop its ugly head up pretty often. Allow me to follow a different path.
Outrank means what? Does that mean a cadet or midshipman can issue orders that an enlisted man is obligated to follow?

There is a chain of command. If someone of senior rank (PFC to 4 Star), who is not in the chain of command, issues an order, so what? If the interloper's orders do not align with the chain of command's orders, standing orders or regulations there better be damn good and obvious justification (life safety or damage to equipment/materials).

As far as I am aware no cadet or midshipman occupies a chain of command billet anywhere other than their respective service academy or ROTC unit. So, they have the rank, but not the authority.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2022 2:17 AM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Mar 2022 02:17:48 -0400

They do not and you don’t have to salute them until they receive their commission. Until then they have as much rank as a cadet major at Bunker Hill Military Academy in the movie “TAPS”.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2022 2:22 AM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Mar 2022 02:22:02 -0400

Our policy is until they have their commission their rank is no higher than the cadet major at bunker hill military academy in the movie “TAPS.”

You absolutely don’t salute them, you don’t call them sir or ma’am. Some services recognize them but our service does not. They are civilians at this point, regardless of opinion. I have worked with cadets and most have the knowledge of a SN or E3 in our service and you respect them for that level rank. That’s just how it works for us.

Response by SGT Edward Gallen made Mar 29 at 2022 1:06 PM

SGT Edward Gallen — Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:06:46 -0400

They are similar to the old rank of Cornet that was btw NCI and O. One Army unit still has that rank, 28th, A104 AKA FTPCC originally formed 1774 and has existed as a USArmy unit since then.

Response by MAJ James Woods made Mar 30 at 2022 12:00 AM

MAJ James Woods — Wed, 30 Mar 2022 00:00:57 -0400

Umm no. There's a reason we were called 3LTs cause the respect we got at CTLT was courteous and directed by the unit leaders.

Response by PFC John Behrman made Mar 30 at 2022 12:50 AM

PFC John Behrman — Wed, 30 Mar 2022 00:50:51 -0400

I was in the ROTC program prior to serving in the military. They have it completely backwards if they think a Cadet outrank any rank in the service. According to my ROTC NCOIC Srg Maj Israel, a E1 in the service out ranks every Cadet in the program regardless of there Cadet rank.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2022 9:44 AM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Mar 2022 09:44:56 -0400

I'm a just a PFC and even I laugh every time I see a cadet walk into the hangar or on the flight line. They try to act tough and tell you what's what. You just give them a nod and carry on. You know what's true here.

Response by Frank Godek made Mar 30 at 2022 3:12 PM

Frank Godek — Wed, 30 Mar 2022 15:12:53 -0400

Service Academy cadets and midshipman have an established rank that is higher than the senior most enlisted rank and junior to the junior most warrant officer rank. I understand the same is true of ROTC cadets that are in their final two years and have signed a contract to enter the service upon graduation. It is a truly stupid cadet/midshipman who will try to assert this rank. I have heard and read of plenty of stories in which this happened but I can tell you from my time at West Point and from stories I have heard from cadets that I knew, you are told pretty much from the beginning of your time at the Academy that you listen and learn from NCOs. Still, I have no doubt that there are some fools who don't learn this lesson the easy way.

Response by SGT Amy Tribou made Mar 31 at 2022 9:23 PM

SGT Amy Tribou — Thu, 31 Mar 2022 21:23:55 -0400

Absolutely correct. There is not a comedy written that is more entertaining or funnier than the show you will see, when that Dodo bird takes flight. It is truly majestic. NOW, you want to piss off an E7 about to pin his 8? Picture this, and if he sees this, he will know it's him, I'm speaking of. All us medics in the Aid station about to emergency deploy to Haiti due to the earthquake. This E7 is not deploying because he's about to PCS his orders are already signed off on. BUT, we have a Full bird in joining us from Walter Reed and we have another Full Bird there too, our Division Surgeon. Now, the Div Surg is truly trying to do his part so he doesn't look like a waste of space. By properly packing his own ruck so EVERYTHING will fit, not only required items, but wanted ones too. NOW Colonel Walter Reed is not so lucky. The space he is taking up is getting wasted more and more by the second and he's starting to creep into other people's space. He keeps trying to do his ruck by just shoving stuff in with no method to his madness. He lifts it and didn't secure the bottom so all falls through. Straps aren't even fully connected top to bottom and he doesn't even know how TO connect them. This man must have been a great surgeon because a soldier he was not. His field equipment was still sealed in the plastic it was issued to him in with the little piece of paper that had the nomenclature and serial number of the item inside on it. One item he saw he asked what it was. I told him, I said, " Sir, that's a gerber." He replied, "What's a Gerber?" So, I showed him mine, opened it up, showed him all what was in it, and all it could do. Well, he just thought that was the best thing ever invented. So... I'm helping the Div Surg fold his clothes neatly but tightly and small while the Div Surg is packing his own gear. Col. Walter Reed walks over to the E7 and says and does this... Sergeant can you set up my ruck and pack it for me? Then drops all his stuff at the E7s feet, does not wait for an answer and walks away to go have a conversation with some others. My E7 looked at him like he was Al qaeda, ISIS, the Taliban all wrapped up in 1. He grabbed the ruck and started slamming it around putting it together. The Colonel never acknowledged any of this. While my E7 is doing this, he is so pissed his face is turning so dark red it's almost matching the color of our berets. Our Div Surg, saw this and was stunned, but there was no one to out rank the guy because they were both Full birds. I stopped helping our Full bird, and he completely understood, and cautiously walked over to my E7 handed him a cigarette and said go outside before you end up in the back seat of a MPs patrol car, I will do this. My E7 looked at me, took the cigarette and walked outside without a word said. A few minutes later Colonel clueless walks over and he sees me doing his ruck, and says, " Oh, Tri..., you know how to do that?" "I didn't know you knew how." My Div Surg, speaks up and says, "Um, Doe, of course she knows how to do it, she's in the military, everyone should know how to rig and pack their own ruck at the bare minimum." It was his way of shaming the Walter Reed Colonel. My E7 came back about 15 minutes later, but told me to keep the desk jockey away from him, or the Surgeon will need a surgeon. I truly believe the only time this Colonel EVER spent time in the field outside of a hospital, office, air conditioning, lol, was in basic or OCS. I am pay check positive that even though we were all hot and miserable in Haiti (January 2010, daily temp, 95- 105 degrees) He was absolutely especially miserable with no AC, no water, no plumbing, nothing. He had to for the first time in his catered to, spoiled existence, EMBRACE THE SUCK!!!

Response by MSG Bob Tockes made Apr 1 at 2022 1:29 PM

MSG Bob Tockes — Fri, 01 Apr 2022 13:29:20 -0400

They would not be giving me orders.

Response by 1LT Neal Schwartz made Apr 1 at 2022 5:36 PM

1LT Neal Schwartz — Fri, 01 Apr 2022 17:36:22 -0400

I don't think so, even in OCS it was NCO's running the show. I'd presume a cadet is not a commissioned officer until he or she graduates.

Response by TSgt John Senior made Apr 1 at 2022 10:29 PM

TSgt John Senior — Fri, 01 Apr 2022 22:29:51 -0400

Well, technically yes they do. And it comes with a caveat. Just like below, "Yes but..." When we had a new subbie show up, the sergeant or warrant officer pulled them off to the side and had a conversation with them. it was in their best interest to adhere to the advice, and at that point we could tell what kind of officer they were going to be. If they "pulled rank" we normally laughed at them under our breath, and ignored them or did the worst job possible. We would see them on extra duties as we knew the game. End of the day, we figured out that rank was not everything.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2022 11:18 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 Apr 2022 23:18:46 -0400

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2022 11:27 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 Apr 2022 23:27:21 -0400

Absolutely!!!! Cadets should absolutely assert their authority over NCOs and square them away as required, particularly "those" Senior NCOs who have served multiple combat tours and have years/decades of experience in the military. Cadets should remember that in a year or two, they'll be Second Lieutenants ... leaders who know more because they attended ROTC or a Military Academy. I hope that I made my point.

Or, conversely ... Cadets could develop relationships with NCOs and become their proteges in order to learn from their years/decades of experience. Most NCOs will be happy to mentor Cadets, knowing in a year or two, those cadets will be Second Lieutenants.

Response by SPC Steven Depuy made Apr 4 at 2022 10:52 AM

SPC Steven Depuy — Mon, 04 Apr 2022 10:52:54 -0400

Technically they do. But go ahead when you get to your new posting, and try to order the CSM of the post around, see how that works for you. A lowly member of the E-4 mafia like me, different story. But when you get to the NCO's, tread lightly, lol

Response by CPO Kim Hanthorn made Apr 4 at 2022 1:13 PM

CPO Kim Hanthorn — Mon, 04 Apr 2022 13:13:52 -0400

I was a Boiler Technician on my first ship the USS Marvin Shields a Knox Class Frigate. We had Midshipment in the Main Spaces all the time. I was an E-1 to E-4 at the time. These want to be officers were EXTREMELY humble. They had to draw the Systems of the ship like fire fighting systems, main and auxiliary steam systems and so on. The crew had to know these systems like the back of our hands. If one of those Midshipment came down to the fire room being demanding, we would make their lives miserable. Just because your a WANT TO BE OFFICER DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO TREAT PEOPLE LIKE DIRT UNDER YOUR FEET. BTs worked in the HOTTEST, most miserable conditions on the ship, and we didn’t put up with too much especially from prepubescent Officers. In my 25+ years in the Military I served under some GREAT OFFICERS. The worst Officers I’ve had to deal with were in the Army and the Marines (VERY DEMANDING, and not in my chain of command). I got into a full blown argument with a full bird Colonel in the Army wile I was Military Police in Kuwait, (At that time I was in the USNR NEC 9545 and a Cop in the civilian world) as it turned out my Captain had more pull then that Colonel because he was the Provost marshal. As a CPO I will tell you, you can check that attitude at the hatch coming into my space. In the Navy my job is to train Junior Officers, and make the ship move through the water, NOT to put up with YOUR attitude because you want to be a ZERO. You get lousy Officers when Enlisted don’t train them right. Just because you went to college doesn’t mean your an expert in my field of the military. HUMBLE YOURSELF OR GO FUCK YOURSELF, your choice.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 4 at 2022 2:55 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Mon, 04 Apr 2022 14:55:28 -0400

I would tell the cadet he/she is to observe and learn. In no way will you give orders to MY soldiers. Is that understood? Then I would tell the soldiers what the parameters are.

Response by SSG Bill McCoy made Apr 4 at 2022 5:13 PM

SSG Bill McCoy — Mon, 04 Apr 2022 17:13:33 -0400

Uhmmm ... well, "Cadets" as far as I know, have not received a Commission so I don't see how they could possibly outrank an already Commissioned officer - even a 2LT. I never dealt with a Cadet ... not from a military academy - but have with ROTC Cadets and they were subject fo my supervision though not anything like an actual subordinate - more fore guidance actually.
We were never advised how to handle them ... but I see from other replies that 3-4 year Cadets are between NCO and Warrant ranks. (?) We also referred to them as "sir," or "Mam."

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made Apr 4 at 2022 6:02 PM

A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney — Mon, 04 Apr 2022 18:02:10 -0400

Uh...."NO"......Have Any Other Questions?...

They May BE Rank, But They're Simply In Training To BECOME Officers,
And Therefore Have Rank Over Absolutely NOBODY....ZERO, SIP, NADA..
If You Flip Them Off, As We ALL Should,
They Can't Do A Darned Thing Except Report You To Their Mothers

Response by SGT Christopher Sigafoos made Apr 24 at 2022 7:13 PM

SGT Christopher Sigafoos — Sun, 24 Apr 2022 19:13:43 -0400

AR 600-20 lists Cadet and Officer Candidates at above NCO's but below Warrants. In practice, the officers will always have the backs of the more seasoned NCO's. Something not all Cadets understand... at first. LoL

Response by SPC David Paine made Apr 25 at 2022 6:31 AM

SPC David Paine — Mon, 25 Apr 2022 06:31:07 -0400

No, they haven't graduated yet. When they do yes but learn before you start spitting out orders, many a butter bars find themselves on the wrong side by being cocky bastard.

Response by MGySgt Rich Zahn made Apr 26 at 2022 8:07 PM

MGySgt Rich Zahn — Tue, 26 Apr 2022 20:07:55 -0400

How can some thing not commissioned out rank an NCO? A L/cpl has been promoted twice already

Response by 1SG J. Shannon Lewis made Apr 27 at 2022 8:35 PM

1SG J. Shannon Lewis — Wed, 27 Apr 2022 20:35:17 -0400

They don't outrank anything. They aren't even Soldiers yet.

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made Apr 28 at 2022 5:10 PM

A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney — Thu, 28 Apr 2022 17:10:02 -0400

Cadets Outrank Nobody.
They're Just Plain "RANK"
In It's Purest Form..

AKA: Jer Casses

Response by SSgt Thomas Chamberlain made Apr 28 at 2022 7:38 PM

SSgt Thomas Chamberlain — Thu, 28 Apr 2022 19:38:59 -0400

I was in the Honor Guard for my first assignment and was at some hotel to present the colors at some banquet. A Junior ROTC kid grabbed my attention when I passed by him and he told me it was disrespectful that I did not salute him since he was the Wing Commander. I said you have no rank in the actual military and then informed his real (Ret) First Sergeant (might have been Commander, it's been almost 15 years) of the situation for education. He responded with the same laugh I did and then ripped his kid in a side room. Good times.

Response by SGT Steven Ransbottom made Apr 28 at 2022 9:25 PM

SGT Steven Ransbottom — Thu, 28 Apr 2022 21:25:58 -0400

I recall such an event back in the 1st Cav at Ft Hood. Marching my squad to the Motor Pool when we went past a young cadet when he stopped me and demand I salute him, 4 circles on his head gear and I asked whose Army he was in and he lost his mind and demanded to know my commanding officer, told that is not a good idea. Capt was a West Pointer and absolutely detested ROTC Cadets. About an hour later, commanders' jeep and driver show up as I was ordered to present myself. I reported and the BC asked me to relax and asked what had transpired. As I clarified the event, I realized he had the Cadet behind the desk in front leaning rest and told him he needed 50 more pushups for having for irritating him and never to engage any of his NCO's again.

Response by CMSgt Jay Pine made Apr 28 at 2022 10:15 PM

CMSgt Jay Pine — Thu, 28 Apr 2022 22:15:41 -0400

Sure, let’s have that talk! Why is this even a question?!

Response by SFC William Ramsey made Apr 29 at 2022 5:32 PM

SFC William Ramsey — Fri, 29 Apr 2022 17:32:32 -0400

BLUF: Cadets have no military rank and therefore do not outrank enlisted. There are several caveats to this though. As with West Point or any USMA the Cadets are actually under contract while attending any USMA, and you do have to address them as Mr./Ms./Miss. or Cadet. (Calling them Dots tends to upset them, so don't do it... ;-) ) ROTC cadets tend to have two categories Non-Contracted and SMP, Non-Contracted ROTC Cadets, You can ignore them, SMP falls under the contracted Cadet and the same USMA rules apply. As I started this with Cadet is not a military rank, However the Cadets Authority is derived from the Officer they are assigned to for mentorship and is not organic to their Cadet Status. At West Point, between their Junior and Senior year, some Cadets have the opportunity to develop their leadership skills by being assigned to actual active military units. They are mentored by the commissioned officer they are assigned to and that officer might give the Cadet the opportunity to lead the element of soldiers, but only at the allowance of the commissioned officer supervising them. In the Reserve world the ROTC program at a local college, has the opportunity for the Cadet called the Simultaneous Membership Program (SMP)(CCR 145-11) where the ROTC Cadet is assigned to a Reserve Unit Commander and mentored. As stated before, the authority the Cadet wields in a unit comes from the assigned commissioned officer, who is ultimately responsible for the Cadets Actions. Now, I said all that to say this as well, in an emergency situation with the loss of the command structure the Cadet could take command until the cadet was replaced by a commissioned officer. (AR 600-20 U.S. Army Command Policy) It is a real gray area, but in my 31 years in, the Cadets I knew, understood they were not my boss, and that their authority began and ended at the mentoring officer.

Response by PO1 Steven Siepp made May 1 at 2022 1:31 AM

PO1 Steven Siepp — Sun, 01 May 2022 01:31:12 -0400

I know when I was serving on a Reserve Ship we would get cadets showing up every once in awhile. I believe the ones I had working for me as an E-5 filling the billet for EMO or Electronics Material Officer/ Senior ET were first or 2nd year. they wore the same dungarees as I did. I always had a fan room to be painted or some sh*t job that needed to get done and I looked at it as when they made it to the fleet as an 01 they were going to return the favor to some poor seaman and I wanted them to know how it felt. I never had the cadets in kakis but I'm relatively sure the CPO's had there fun as well.

Response by SSG Jason Clack made May 1 at 2022 1:36 AM

SSG Jason Clack — Sun, 01 May 2022 01:36:01 -0400

No, a cadet does not out rank any enlisted personnel. They do not out rank any until they graduate and receive their commission as an Officer. They will try, but it never works. I know this because my brigade/Squadron was in charge of the summer training for the Juniors and Seniors at West Point in 2015.

Response by SGT Frank Pritchett made May 1 at 2022 9:57 AM

SGT Frank Pritchett — Sun, 01 May 2022 09:57:50 -0400

Cadets are not Active Military, remember President Trump was a Cadet who chose Business over Military, they deserve all the respect of a Civilian going to a Military University and some day they may choose to join the Miliary. Follow SGT Tracy's advice.

Response by SGT Juan Robledo made May 23 at 2022 10:25 PM

SGT Juan Robledo — Mon, 23 May 2022 22:25:39 -0400

Maybe in LaLa land, but NO way

Response by SFC Ryan West made Jun 2 at 2022 6:39 PM

SFC Ryan West — Thu, 02 Jun 2022 18:39:09 -0400

They get paid as e5 or e6. So depending on the NCO rank. Some need a reality check which is quite funny to see go down by senior NCO's.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 2 at 2022 11:57 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Jun 2022 23:57:15 -0400

They are higher in the chain of command...in a unit...but they don't really have a higher "rank." They are there to LEARN, and part of learning is being told STFU by a full bird, lol...and they can be ordered to be subordinate to the NCO for learning.
Also...they are higher than OCS candidates, despite ROTC being E5 and OCS being E6. So odd.
The real lesson is for you, as an officer, that you need to give them the wisdom of knowing when they need to be silent instead of boasting. Because claiming to outrank an NCO is hubris, and ask them WHY they are saying that, in that moment. What is the PURPOSE of the statement? Saying a fact just to state a fact is rarely a worthy purpose.

Response by SGT James Tyler made Jun 4 at 2022 12:39 PM

SGT James Tyler — Sat, 04 Jun 2022 12:39:35 -0400

To add to the yes, but answers. Once had a cadet show up to my unit, that had once been once of my soldiers that I (we) count martialed (sic) out of the Army. He showed up to my unit made a beeline for me and started trying to Throw his weight around. In less than 2 hours he was back on a bus headed back to the university of Florida ( or something of that nature) to be released from any and all ROTC/military programs.

Response by CPT David Donovan made Jun 4 at 2022 2:25 PM

CPT David Donovan — Sat, 04 Jun 2022 14:25:44 -0400

I was a cadet back in the 1960s. I'm quite sure we cadets were actually E-1s until commission. In fact, I have my honorable discharge certificate as a PVT E-1 dated the same month I received my commission. There was never any pretense we outranked anything or anybody other than other, more junior cadets!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 4 at 2022 8:45 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 04 Jun 2022 20:45:26 -0400

A cadet is essentially equivalent to an E-5. I was prior-enlisted and made specialist prior to being a cadet… when mobilized with my unit for Desert Shield/Storm, they appointed me as an E-5 Ops SGT.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2022 8:54 AM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 05 Jun 2022 08:54:25 -0400

A cadet is just that, a cadet. This means he/she hasn't graduated yet, hasn't taken the oath yet, and has not been given/granted a commission yet. That being said, it does NOT mean that you deny them military customs and courtesies.

As noted by two other commenters who are both senior SNCO's, regulations dictate that they do some authority. But if their superiors/instructors/college professors have done them any favors, they've taught the cadets to not lock horns with a Sgt. or above. For Cpl's. and below, (those of us who are intelligent and we know what's good for us), we know better than to lock horns with a senior cadet, and we render them proper military customs, courtesies, and respect.

That being said, the few cadets I encountered, (I don't know if they were junior, or senior), were while we were at sea, and they were all pretty quiet. Probably the reason I didn't have any problems with them, was because I made way for them, and called them "sir".

Response by SSG Byron Hewett made Jun 5 at 2022 4:00 PM

SSG Byron Hewett — Sun, 05 Jun 2022 16:00:55 -0400

try this on for size LT but the best advice to give is assign that KID-DOT SPOT an NCO who has been around along time and who a really good good background knowledge and a Command of respect and can get things done and sets a good example for all. If you want that Cadet to become a potentially really good Officer pair them up to that really knowledgeable NCO that has been around and that can guide that Cadet to success as an Officer. Still the courtesy of yes Sir or Ma'am or No Sir or Ma'am does apply. please refer to the hyperlink from West Point USMA it should help to establish a good setting for that Cadet to learn from.

https://mwi.usma.edu/yes-sergeant-actually-west-point-cadet-outrank/

Yes, Sergeant, Actually That West Point Cadet Does Outrank You - Modern War Institute

Scott Faith argues that contrary to popular belief West Point and ROTC cadets outrank NCO's according to Army Command Policy.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2022 5:14 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 05 Jun 2022 17:14:32 -0400

Tell them, "Of course you do, it's written right here. If you have any guts, go to your nearest sergeant major and lock him/her up ... better yet, get on a plane to the Pentagon, barge into their office and demand the respect you deserve."

LT Obourn, you have a thankless job. You're "uh-huh" response will do you well.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2022 7:57 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Jun 2022 07:57:56 -0400

Not until their take their oath after graduation and receive their commission.

Response by LT Christopher Miller made Jun 6 at 2022 4:25 PM

LT Christopher Miller — Mon, 06 Jun 2022 16:25:57 -0400

The rank of cadet and midshipmen actually goes back hundreds of years. Here is the answer, right from the Army:

AR 600-20, Section 2:

2-8. Death, disability, retirement, reassignment, or absence of the commander

a. Commander of Army element.

(1) If a commander of an Army element, other than a commander of a headquarters and headquarters element, dies, becomes disabled, retires, is reassigned, or is temporarily absent, the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier will assume command.

(2) If the commander of a headquarters and headquarters element dies, becomes disabled, retires, is reassigned, or is temporarily absent, the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier of the particular headquarters and headquarters element who performs duties within the element will assume command. For example, if a division headquarters and headquarters company commander is temporarily absent, the executive officer as the senior regularly assigned Army Soldier who performs duties within the headquarters company would assume command and not the division commander.

(3) Senior regularly assigned Army Soldier refers (in order of priority) to officers, WOs, cadets, NCOs, specialists, or privates present for duty unless they are ineligible under paragraphs 2-15 or 2-16. They assume command until relieved by proper authority except as provided in 2-8c. Assumption of command under these conditions is announced per paragraph 2-5. However, the announcement will indicate assumption as acting commander unless designated as permanent by the proper authority. It is not necessary to rescind the announcement designating an acting commander to assume duties of the commander “during the temporary absence of the regularly assigned commander” if the announcement gives the time element involved. A rescinding announcement is required if the temporary assumption of command is for an indefinite period.

Response by MSgt Mark Donaldson made Jun 7 at 2022 9:33 AM

MSgt Mark Donaldson — Tue, 07 Jun 2022 09:33:48 -0400

I would say ‘no’, they are in the “boot” training status. I would not take any guff from someone in the status.

Response by SSG Douglas Shaffer made Jun 7 at 2022 3:53 PM

SSG Douglas Shaffer — Tue, 07 Jun 2022 15:53:33 -0400

I say "No" however they do, I don't understand how this works since they have not graduated from a military academy. Put it this way if a someone was going to go the "Green to Gold" (Enlisted to Officer) program and technically stepped away from the military to attend college full time, they carry the rank of Sergeant and are paid as such whether they were E-1 to E9. So why is this not applied to Cadets? However, they are treated as the rank of 2nd LT. Could someone tell me why? Is it because enlisted don't matter for they are not attending an academy? Is it that an enlisteds struggle to reach officers rank don't matter? How is it a cadet, with no actual military experience, has not graduated from an academy, is treated better than enlisted?

Response by SSG Marc Moore made Jun 8 at 2022 11:35 PM

SSG Marc Moore — Wed, 08 Jun 2022 23:35:45 -0400

Really?! A cadet (ROTC) is paid at the E-5 level; a USMA Cadet at the E-6 level like his OCS counterparts so how do they outrank senior NCO’s? What regulation gives them authority over a senior NCO?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 9 at 2022 8:12 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 09 Jun 2022 08:12:10 -0400

Absolutely NOT!! A cadet is just that. Until they become a commissioned officer in the military they don't know s#!t from sugar. It's best to not even entertain the notion.

Response by SGT Jeremy Andrews made Jun 9 at 2022 1:55 PM

SGT Jeremy Andrews — Thu, 09 Jun 2022 13:55:25 -0400

I had wondered that myself when I first enlisted. So a Cadet receives the equivalent of E-5 pay while in service assigned to unit. Any LT outranks a Cadet but from my experience I’ve seen Platoon Sergeants and First Sergeants put them at Parade Rest.

Response by SSgt David M. made Jun 9 at 2022 10:56 PM

SSgt David M. — Thu, 09 Jun 2022 22:56:48 -0400

While I was stationed in Ludwigsburg, Germany with the 34th Signal BN, 7th Corps, we were visited by a group of 3rd LTs from West Point. This was in 1975 or 1976. These 3rd LTs were in their Senior year at West Point and were required to visit a unit that would be of interest to them. We had a Company formation in front of A Company and were told in no short order that we were to treat these visiting 3rd LTs as 'Real Officers', Salute, and provide assistance as much as possible. I wish that I had taken note of their names as it would be interesting to see just how they did once they graduated and became REAL Officers! LOL There were a few that did understand that they were not really Officers and there were a few that acted like they were gods. You know which we helped more I am sure! We had a lot of Viet-Nam Veterans and they told us how some green LTs did not last long even when they were not at the front lines. We had a few sit down one on one discussions with a couple of the 3rd LTs. One of the questions that they asked was 'What is one thing that keeps you from doing your job as efficiently as it could be done?' We discussed many thoughts but most came down to all the wasted time buffing floors and excessive cleaning of everything. Needless to say when they did an out briefing nothing changed! Not that we really expected any changes to come about! LOL ;-) I Salute all My Fellow Veterans!

Response by 1SG Patrick Sims made Jun 10 at 2022 10:02 AM

1SG Patrick Sims — Fri, 10 Jun 2022 10:02:42 -0400

I'm not generally prone to being unkinged to a pathetic little worm who thinks a few military courses have made him General Patton. I may thank the cadet for his great wisdom---Then tell him to get fucked and get away from me.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Jul 1 at 2022 4:13 AM

LTC Stephen F. — Fri, 01 Jul 2022 04:13:03 -0400

2LT Private RallyPoint Member ss a USMA, West Point cadet [prior active duty service 1974-1976] we were equivalent to a rank just below Warrant Officer and above all enlisted ranks [sometimes referred to as 3rd LT. [We were subject to the UCMJ throughout out our tenure as USMA cadets [allies to USNA and USAFA as well]
In 1978 I served as a Drill Cadet [in place of a drill sergeant for a full training cycle at Fort Dix.] My prior service expereince helped me significantly. Even though I was at the same age as many trainees they demonstrated respect for me based on my respect for them and my knowldge of military tasks.
In 1979 I served as Cadet Troop Leadership Training [CTLT] in a signal battalion at Krabbenloch-Kaserne was a barracks in the Ludwigsburg district east. I served as platoon leader os acable and wire platoon for a month.

Per AR 600–20 • 24 July 2020 5
Table 1 –1
Grades, Army— Continued
W-2 Pay grade; Title of address: Chief/Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms.
Abbreviation: CW2
W-1 Pay grade: W –1; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms.
Abbreviation: WO1
USMA Cadets; Cadet, U.S. Military Academy; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet
Abbreviation: CDT
ROTC cadet Grade: Cadet, Senior Advanced Reserve Officer’s Training Corps (ROTC); Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Cadet
Abbreviation: CDT
Officer Candidate School Candidates; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Candidate
Abbreviation: OC
Warrant Officer Candidate; Pay grade: Special; Title of address: Candidate
Abbreviation: WOC

Enlisted noncommissioned officers
Sergeant Major of the Army; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
Command Sergeant Major2; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major [3]; Pay grade: E –9; Title of address: Sergeant Major
First Sergeant; Pay grade: E –8; Title of address: First Sergeant
Master Sergeant; Pay grade: E –8; Title of address: Sergeant
Sergeant First Class; Pay grade: E –7; Title of address: Sergeant

FYI SFC William Farrell PO3 Edward Riddle Maj Bill Smith, Ph.D. ] LTC William Conrad CPT Daniel Cox SPC Michael Terrell LTC Kenneth Konstanzer COL George Woods MAJ Frank Ward LTC Paul Thomas MAJ Richard Simis LTC Charles Snyder SPC Lyle Montgomery SMSgt Lawrence McCarter CPT Lawrence Cable

Response by PO3 Scot Fahey made Jul 3 at 2022 4:36 PM

PO3 Scot Fahey — Sun, 03 Jul 2022 16:36:04 -0400

absent an actual commission, cadets are not yet active duty

Response by Sgt Jake Middlebrook made Jul 3 at 2022 5:22 PM

Sgt Jake Middlebrook — Sun, 03 Jul 2022 17:22:06 -0400

AR 600 - 20 (3) Senior regularly assigned Army Soldier refers (in order of priority) to officers, WOs, cadets, NCOs, specialists, or privates present for duty.
So yes they do. Hopefully someone has told them who not to pull rank on. The good news is you are unlikely to have a cadet present in a battle which leaves a very limited amount of trouble a cadet can cause. The only real problem I every say was in a training squadron in the Air Force. Our NCOs were 15 year buck sergeants about to be mustered out because they couldn't make staff sergeant and our officer was a 2nd Lt. Moral and tech school grades dropped enough the base commander sent us a Capt to clean house and he got us some decent NCOs assigned. When he left a 1st Lt took his place no problem. A girl scout can run a training squadron with good NCOs. Even the scalp hunter Capt couldn't run it with those idiots in place.

Response by SGT Kenneth Durman made Jul 7 at 2022 11:47 AM

SGT Kenneth Durman — Thu, 07 Jul 2022 11:47:05 -0400

No they don't, they have not earned commisssion yet.

Response by SPC Robert Bowen made Jul 7 at 2022 8:25 PM

SPC Robert Bowen — Thu, 07 Jul 2022 20:25:57 -0400

Cadets trying to play officers in the real Army is a joke. When they come to an Infantry unit, they should observe, train and learn. And shut the hell up. Real officers learned their place real fast. If they want to look good in the eyes of the upper C.O.C. Then follow the NCOs lead and they will be made to look great and be great leaders. While in school they should stick to playing Army

Response by MAJ Jeffrey Johnson made Jul 8 at 2022 10:45 AM

MAJ Jeffrey Johnson — Fri, 08 Jul 2022 10:45:11 -0400

A cadet who has successfully completed their third year is, by law and regulation, an officer without rank. They can be activated and deployed as an officer from that point on time. My son was so activated and see as a maratime cadet for the invasion of Iraq. As an Army ROTC instructor I had difficulty sorting out cadets in the Simultaneous Membership Program. The were paid as. As E-5s but we're assigned responsibilities of an 0-1.Many had not completed their third year.The regs did not resolve who was an officer or not.

Response by SGT Tod Folds made Jul 8 at 2022 12:53 PM

SGT Tod Folds — Fri, 08 Jul 2022 12:53:52 -0400

Another life time ago, I was the Sqd Ldr for Heavy Weapons Sqd (2 x M-60 machine gun teams and one sniper team). We had a few cadets assigned to us during our training rotation. It was made clear by the Captain to the cadets they were to watch, learn, ask questions, and soak up as much knowledge from all the leaders at all levels. Besides one incident (clearly silver spoon syndrome), the cadets were highly motivated and eager to learn. They were all preparing for Ranger school so we set up our field time to mimic that school. They were a squared away group. I think a lot of these incidents we hear about come from their leaders setting them up for failure.

Response by SFC Barbara Layman made Jul 9 at 2022 9:00 AM

SFC Barbara Layman — Sat, 09 Jul 2022 09:00:24 -0400

I have to chuckle every time I hear/see this question in whatever format it presents itself. It reminds me of a personal experience early in my career.

1965, WAC, PFC, HHC Ft Gordon, GA, Separation/Transfer Point, clerk typist.
Duties, break out 201 files and prepare DD Form 214 for personnel being separated from Active Duty.
EVENT:
One morning whilst I was busy at my desk doing my job a young man stepped in the doorway and after a few seconds proceeded to SHOUT at me berating because I had not turned away from my typewriter to immediately come to the position of attention and salute his arrival. He was so loud that the WO-4 section chief was able to hear him at the other end of the building.
I attempted to explain that if I did as he demanded for every individual who came into this small office I would never get anyone's paperwork completed. He just got more irate and his voice louder.
My Chief appeared beside him in the doorway to learn what the hullaballoo was about. Upon being informed, he turned to this young ROTC cadet who was completing Advance Camp and expecting to leave in 2 days, advised him that his attitude was UNacceptable, that he was getting his appointment via act of congress and that the Chief received his by direct appointment. He further advised that he considered the cadet's attitude toward me as tho' I was his own daughter and he (the cadet) was WAY OUT OF LINE. Dismissed the cadet to his unit then turned to me.
Chief - "Where are his records?"
Me - "Sir, we've not yet received the packet."
Chief - "When it arrives, let me know, then place it in the bottom of your desk drawer. Hold it there until I tell you to release it." I followed those instructions.
Two weeks later, after this cadet had been on daily post police call, (the old days before civilians 'took over') my Chief told me to pull the packet and get it ready for the cadet to be released the following day, which I did.
When that young man appeared for orientation the following day, he was so meek butter would not have melted in his mouth.

Bottom line, I think he learned his lesson and that he didn't have the power/authority he thought he had.

Response by CMDCM John F. "Doc" Bradshaw made Jul 11 at 2022 1:33 AM

CMDCM John F. "Doc" Bradshaw — Mon, 11 Jul 2022 01:33:15 -0400

Personally, I believe it’s in the best interest of the Cadet, young or Junior Officer, OCS, etc… to concentrate more on learning from their Senior Enlisted who most have been in service longer than their age. Of Course Proper Respect shown is always important but not the key issue to learn your job as a young person learning to become a successful leader. A Lamb Skin, Diplomas, Certificates, etc… does NOT Automatically make you a good leader. It just gives you the opportunity to be one. Just my opinion. Best of luck to all new cadets and officers!!! Respectfully, Doc

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 20 at 2022 2:54 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Jul 2022 14:54:54 -0400

The thought that comes to mind is who is mentoring this Cadet? Why in the world are they even worrying about that? As a Cadre member this topic never is never brought up or mentioned because they know they are in the mentoring and building phase of their leadership journey. Its a mutual understanding. I don't belittle them for their ignorance as it pertains to leadership in its various forms and they respect me for the knowledge I am able to give them to be successful after commissioning. This question must be coming from a non-leader who is thinking about becoming a Cadet.

Response by SGT Jeff Everhart made Jul 26 at 2022 8:35 PM

SGT Jeff Everhart — Tue, 26 Jul 2022 20:35:37 -0400

The ROTC cadet corps is a military institution, I would hope the same military courtesy would apply here.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 28 at 2022 10:26 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 Jul 2022 10:26:40 -0400

Respect is not given... It is earned. We salute the Rank, not the man or woman wearing it. What do I mean by that? If a CDT/ OC/ WOC is squared away, the chances of who out ranks who with an NCO will be almost non-existent, particularly if the NCO is also squared away. This issue is more prevalent within CDT/ OC/ WOC who are not confident in their own abilities and vice-versa with the NCO. A good trait of a leader, is the ability to listen and learned from those he leads!

Response by CSM Jerry Weldon made Aug 21 at 2022 9:35 AM

CSM Jerry Weldon — Sun, 21 Aug 2022 09:35:00 -0400

Courtesy of rank has nothing to do with experience. Cadet vs NCO, student vs teacher. I will go further and say that a Cadet with a rank attitude will not be the Officer I would want to serve with.

Response by LCpl Richard Lally made Sep 11 at 2022 7:11 PM

LCpl Richard Lally — Sun, 11 Sep 2022 19:11:31 -0400

Cadets are COLLEGE STUDENTS or better known as CIVILIANS enrolled in a military school until they graduate and get their commissions.

Response by PO3 D Ingrassia made Sep 12 at 2022 11:54 AM

PO3 D Ingrassia — Mon, 12 Sep 2022 11:54:04 -0400

Midshipmen on a Cold War submarine were hands on by the dolphin wearing crew.
Some cried, some tried to escape.
Most learned , some didn’t…

Response by Sgt Greg White made Sep 12 at 2022 10:24 PM

Sgt Greg White — Mon, 12 Sep 2022 22:24:11 -0400

It seems according to Army Regulations cadets not only outrank the most senior NCO, but as idiotic as it sounds, if for whatever reason there is no officer or warrant officer available to command a unit then a first week cadet assigned to the unit takes command !!!

Like Gallagher says. 2 words that don't go together. Military Intelligence

Response by SFC Lawrence Born made Sep 14 at 2022 4:27 PM

SFC Lawrence Born — Wed, 14 Sep 2022 16:27:33 -0400

While a SSG working in HQ at an SF(A) Group I had the opportunity to come into contact with Jots each summer. Most were reasonable enough to understand just how little value they held for the Army at that point. Occasionally one would get "puffy". One summer I was walking through the hallway near our S1 section when I heard a commotion. I went to check it out and found a Jot being disrespectful and demanding of the SPC who basically ran the DTS section and was an absolute rock star soldier. I look over and see the section NCOIC is not in. I stepped between them and told the SPC to step outside (DTS had a small office inside S1) and close the door. As soon as he did I proceeded to explain to said Jot what a useless POS he was, how badly his parents had failed him, and how he was stealing valuable oxygen from actual soldiers. Then I went straight to the S1 actual's office and explained the incident. His comment was "Thanks, I got this Sergeant" Needless to say, Jot was instructed to apologize to the SPC for his conduct and a single word was not heard from him in the remainder of his time.

The real problem comes from the institutional and public proclamation of Cadets being "the best of the best". While there ARE a good percentage of Cadets that meet high standards, there is also a HUGE percentage of them that range from mediocre to substandard. The reasons for this fall into three basic categories. 1) Those who are in the academy because of legacy/buddy system appointments. Children of distinguished officer, children of political allies etc 2) Members of targeted "special populations" which the academies wish to grow numbers within the student bodies. This, and #3, are accomplished most often times through the use of the prep schools- the academies own junior colleges for NCAA non-qualifiers. 3) Athletes. The plain truth is that academies recruit for athletics just like any other NCAA DIV 1 school and takes athletes who in NO WAY would otherwise qualify for admission to the academies. If they are so substandard as to be NCAA non qualifiers they go to the prep school first. NONE of the academies should have ANY DIV 1 sports and should NOT offer athletic scholarships. They should be DIV 3 with no scholarships and make it so that Cadets must all meet the same admission standards without exception.

After I retired from the Army I worked as a DCSA Special Agent doing security clearance investigations here in the Springs and intimately got to see "how the sausage was made". Pretty disturbing to learn these things and see the HUGE amounts of $$$$ spent on this clown show.

Response by SFC John Lovelady made Sep 15 at 2022 4:02 PM

SFC John Lovelady — Thu, 15 Sep 2022 16:02:19 -0400

Here is my spin on things, as a Senior NCO I would always show a Cadet the proper respect as I would a Commission Officer, because teaching them the right way is how you train good leaders.

Response by SFC James High made Sep 16 at 2022 7:13 AM

SFC James High — Fri, 16 Sep 2022 07:13:59 -0400

Army Cadets are paid at the grade of E-6 but as to their out-ranking an NCO, maybe only E5s and E4 Corporals but not anything higher than that.

Response by SGT Mark Moen made Sep 16 at 2022 11:27 PM

SGT Mark Moen — Fri, 16 Sep 2022 23:27:46 -0400

My experience most of the time, i served in a unit where the brigade commander gave the cadets the same status as SSG

Response by CPO Melvin Miller made Sep 18 at 2022 2:57 PM

CPO Melvin Miller — Sun, 18 Sep 2022 14:57:09 -0400

Cadets , midshipmen all need to get their commission then listen real good to those mid level and senior leaders. They have more experience and more understanding of how the command structure works. If they keep their attitudes straight then they can become damn good officers. As a midlevel-senior level petty officer. I have worked with great officers and some real assholes. Our job has been and always was to guide them in the right direction and give them our valuable experience to guide them. They show you the respect of your rank and you show them the same. respect needs to be earned though

Response by 2LT Daryl Stamm made Sep 18 at 2022 10:13 PM

2LT Daryl Stamm — Sun, 18 Sep 2022 22:13:27 -0400

As a commissioned officer, I never even thought of taking on a first sergeant, sergeant major or warrant officer - It payed off for me big time: respect begets respect and they always had my back

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made Sep 19 at 2022 12:11 AM

A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney — Mon, 19 Sep 2022 00:11:48 -0400

CADETS Don't Out-Rank Anyone,
They Just Smell That Way !

Response by SPC Steven Nihipali made Sep 19 at 2022 1:46 AM

SPC Steven Nihipali — Mon, 19 Sep 2022 01:46:07 -0400

Short answer? Not a fucking chance in hell do those shitbags hands any pull. Only when given a job by a commissioned officer, like at the range detail, but even then a senior NCO would also be tasked wth guiding said shitbag.

Long answer, fuck no

Response by SGM Tere Moore made Sep 19 at 2022 6:35 PM

SGM Tere Moore — Mon, 19 Sep 2022 18:35:20 -0400

No-they do not. 'Cadet' is not a rank nor a grade. It is a title. Simple dictionary definition might be helpful: a student at a military or naval academy. Note the word "student". Rank is associated with grade. So any cadet telling me they outrank me, I would ask "What grade is that?" I'd bet they'd stutter, stammer, shuffle their feet and the like. Me... I'm the gal who would ask "Who told you that?" Point of order here - cadets in ROTC sign a legal contract DD4 series Enlisting in their branch of service (the Army does it that way so I'd bet lunch the other services do).

Response by SFC Terry Bryant made Sep 20 at 2022 9:25 AM

SFC Terry Bryant — Tue, 20 Sep 2022 09:25:46 -0400

No they do not. They are essentially trainees in a training environment. They are not in any way part of the chain of command outside their training environment. If an NCO walks into their midst, cadets are subordinate to them at ALL times. Until they have completed their training they are just cadets, not full fledged members of the Military. So essentially cadets have no authority over active duty, national guard, or reserve component personnel. Nor should they.

Response by Skip Tamke made Sep 20 at 2022 7:54 PM

Skip Tamke — Tue, 20 Sep 2022 19:54:03 -0400

I am a civilian, but have an interesting story. I was in AJROTC in HS. The senior army instructor was a Vietnam hardened CSM with every possible award short of The Medal. He made a point of rendering a text book salute to every Alumni academy or rotc cadet that visited the school. To a one, they all thanked him for the salute and his guidance during their HS years. Class both ways!

Response by CPL T.A. Nelson made Sep 21 at 2022 6:52 PM

CPL T.A. Nelson — Wed, 21 Sep 2022 18:52:14 -0400

To my knowledge it is not until after a cadet receives thier commissioned post do they gain any rank. Therefore, the NCO does outrank a cadet...

Response by PO2 Eric Norton made Sep 22 at 2022 9:52 AM

PO2 Eric Norton — Thu, 22 Sep 2022 09:52:24 -0400

I have been retired for some time so I cannot say that this still holds true, but Cadets of the U.S. Coast Guard Academy temporarily assigned for duty (TAD) to operational units for training purposes (tours) during their academy program DO NOT "out rank" NCO's in so far as "operations" per se for unit safety and non law enforcement status. However, they are afforded the respect and privileges of their "rank" outside of operational activities. Is it a written rule?? Can't say Yes or No. I just remember that when Cadets were aboard 2 of the patrol boats, I was assigned to, the Command advised them that they are there to learn and observe, not to direct or flex their Cadet status as their commission was temporary and probation status till such time that they completed the academy. More to the reality of it....the Cadet and his or her attitude make the difference. With that said.....we are Coasties so we don't matter.

Response by SFC Stephen Everett made Sep 22 at 2022 12:12 PM

SFC Stephen Everett — Thu, 22 Sep 2022 12:12:05 -0400

I had a few Cadets in my career from a Cavalry regiment to a engineer brigade. My.occupation career was in Logistics and maintenance. A Cadet boss select them learn and understand Logistics. One thing I advise the Cadet is read and know The importance of the Army Regs which will come to there career the usage, and how there roll plays the importance of certain scenarios from a Cadet to a 2nd Lieutenant. If I was a Cadet I wouldn’t worry about who I rank someone. The question is who could assist to learn and understand senior non-commissioned officer roll, as well an Officers roll in the same occupation field.

Response by PO1 RIchard Petty made Sep 22 at 2022 10:16 PM

PO1 RIchard Petty — Thu, 22 Sep 2022 22:16:16 -0400

No Cadets, Midshipmen, NROTC do not outrank anybody they don't get saluted either. It's in the REGS

Response by SSG Gregg Mourizen made Sep 23 at 2022 1:51 PM

SSG Gregg Mourizen — Fri, 23 Sep 2022 13:51:05 -0400

Seeing are they are rated as an E-6, I would start there...

Response by SCPO Lloyd Sikes made Sep 26 at 2022 1:13 PM

SCPO Lloyd Sikes — Mon, 26 Sep 2022 13:13:45 -0400

Sad but true. While serving on a boomer, we took a dozen or so 2nd & 3rd year Middies on a cruise. About half were very concerned about their status and flaunted it until the CO had a "discussion " with them regarding the crew members with dolphins will be senior to them under all circumstances.

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Nov 3 at 2022 10:53 AM

1SG James Kelly — Thu, 03 Nov 2022 10:53:43 -0400

Had a conversation with a 2lt about this sort of thing; it did not go well for the 2lt.

Response by LCDR Jerry Maurer made Nov 7 at 2022 10:23 AM

LCDR Jerry Maurer — Mon, 07 Nov 2022 10:23:36 -0500

I was enlisted Army before going to Navy OCS. While there, we were paid at the E-5 level. The question of where we stood in the pecking order came up several times and the answer was always, "you're an E-5". So technically we outranked junior enlisted but that isn't very special and with a wife and newborn son, I was way more worried about passing OCS than being able to order an E-4 around.

Response by CPO Kurt Baschab made Nov 7 at 2022 5:38 PM

CPO Kurt Baschab — Mon, 07 Nov 2022 17:38:46 -0500

Technically that is correct, it is the Job of every Senior Enlisted person to educate every cadet, and junior officer on how the Military Service works, a smart cadet or Junior officer will build a good working relationship with there Senior enlisted personal, knowing the senior enlisted personal knowledge can make or break there military carrier.

a Smart and very well educated Senior enlisted personal will know how to handle the Cadet, and junior officer in such a way that the cadet and junior officer will always feel respected, while being educated.
many times in my Career when I had a difficult Cadet or Junior officer, I was able to work and educate them with out them never being the wiser, that I was giving the orders, the cadet or junior officer would believe they were giving the orders, that was fine with me. as long as they were learning or they would get half way down the passage way or out the door before it dawn on them that I just told him or her hell no or what they were going to be doing.

Response by CPO Kim Hanthorn made Nov 8 at 2022 3:00 PM

CPO Kim Hanthorn — Tue, 08 Nov 2022 15:00:50 -0500

They are called CADETS for a reason.

Response by SSG Mike Quinlan made Dec 4 at 2022 1:23 PM

SSG Mike Quinlan — Sun, 04 Dec 2022 13:23:16 -0500

I have to say during my time l, a cadet has a grade equal to E5. I was an infantry platoon sergeant that a cadet tried some shit on. I made him damn near cry.

Response by SP5 James Elmore made Dec 4 at 2022 3:54 PM

SP5 James Elmore — Sun, 04 Dec 2022 15:54:34 -0500

No, none are commissioned yet. That said, treat each other with respect, a nod of greeting.

Response by MAJ Hugh Blanchard made Dec 4 at 2022 9:28 PM

MAJ Hugh Blanchard — Sun, 04 Dec 2022 21:28:43 -0500

Technically, a Cadet does outrank an NCO. But any Cadet with prior service will know better than to try to pull that stunt. I'm grateful for my enlisted and NCO service to have given me some better judgment on that score.

Response by SSgt Bruce Probert made Dec 5 at 2022 1:50 AM

SSgt Bruce Probert — Mon, 05 Dec 2022 01:50:18 -0500

It behooves professionals to treat military courtesy appropriately how else do these cadets get to the point they understand the where fores? A NCO worth his salt can handle any egotistic cadet and if need been the NCO's superior officer can further re-educate the young lad or lady. I is why we have military courtesy it works when applied.

Response by TSgt Travis Wheeler made Dec 6 at 2022 5:34 PM

TSgt Travis Wheeler — Tue, 06 Dec 2022 17:34:08 -0500

No... "cadet" is not a recognized rank in the chain of command.

They are generally contracted as E1-E4 depending on their scholarship and contract details. They DO NOT OUTRANK ANYONE ABOVE THAT CONTRACTED RANK nor do the have any type of positional authority over anyone else on active duty. Ever. We made it that way for a reason.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 7 at 2022 12:49 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 00:49:08 -0500

I see so many comments on here spouting opinion but without actually citing ANY regulations or other doctrine. Fact is that by the regulation (look up Army Regulation 600-20), Cadets do out rank Enlisted members. They are addressed as “Sir,” “Ma’am,” “Mr,” , “Ms,” or “Cadet {Last Name}.” They are saluted. In certain situations, they may well be put “in charge.” Now yes, Cadets worth their salt should probably listen to Senior NCOs before making decisions or trying to give orders. They are, after all, students who are trying to gain knowledge and experience. However, I’d also suggest that SNCOs should probably give them the leeway to make decisions and give orders in the appropriate situations. That’s how said knowledge and experience is gained. It’s “practice,” if you will. I mean, is a Cadet on his/her summer training actually going to be a PL or Company Commander? No. But, he or she may well be put in charge of a particular event or function and need to make decisions or give orders in order to get that particular job done. Give that Cadet the space necessary to do that. SNCO, make appropriate recommendations and help guide that Cadet much like you would advise that 2LT PL. Cadet, don’t let your technical place in the rank structure go to your head. It’s that simple. At the end of the day, what does the regulation say? Abide by that and you’ll never go wrong.

Response by CW3 Danny Abraham made Dec 7 at 2022 6:47 AM

CW3 Danny Abraham — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 06:47:46 -0500

So way back in 1993 I was walking into the motor pool when I saw what looked like a really young LTC walking towards me. I was a PFC at the time and I just kept starring at this guys rank insignia on his cover. It was shiny but I was thinking there is no way this guy can be a LTC. Has the gap closed I realized it was just a silver disc. I kept starring and has we passed each other I did nothing. After we had completely passed each other I hear “Hey Soldier”.
Now being in the 82d we didn’t answer to Soldier. I turned around a lit off in his ass. He then explained to me that he was a cadet and I should salute him. I responded that at no time in Basic were we ever told about a cadet. He then said that we should go talk to my PL. I was all about this idea because my PL was a prior enlisted SFC that was tabbed out.

Well, let’s just say that I learned that I had to salute cadets.

Response by SSG James Stodola made Dec 7 at 2022 12:05 PM

SSG James Stodola — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 12:05:29 -0500

I am not sure, but I think that this may be the idea that the academy puts in their heads in order to prepare them for command, or maybe just to make them feel important while pursuing their goals. I have seen some results on this matter first hand. I had Command Sergeant Major in my MP unit and was talking to him and a butter bar was waiting to talk with him as well. he noticed the LT, but didn't acknowledge him, when he was finished with me he turned and walked away, the LT was following him and saying Sergeant Major I need to talk to you, the CSM simply said; "Make a fucking appointment" and continued walking. Apologies for the language but I wanted to get it accurate. Anyway the LT looked at me with a look of disbelief and said did he just say that to me? I of course was trying hard to not laugh, and said yes sir. Long story short the LT went immediately to the CO's office to complain as I followed to hear that one, and all the CO said was "don't mess with the CSM, make an appointment."

Response by SMSgt Bob Wilson made Dec 7 at 2022 5:31 PM

SMSgt Bob Wilson — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 17:31:49 -0500

Ah, Yes. It is that time of the year that we recycle questions form 3-4 years ago. A cadet is lower than a whale. We are talking about CADETS IN TRAINING, not butter bar zeros.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Dec 7 at 2022 9:18 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 07 Dec 2022 21:18:14 -0500

Tell them to go visit the CSM to tell him/her about their lofty rank. lol

I have only shouted at one soldier in my 20 year career, but I would give a good ass chewing to a cadet who wanted to boss around people. I would tell them that they are not even a real f@cking soldier yet.

What is really bothersome are those cadets in the academies who cheat in scholastic endeavors. The large numbers I have read about tells me those who cheated cross the line with ease. The military is predicated on the truth even if one feels the wrath because of the honesty. Will they cross the line later? If they do, then what are the ramifications? In 7,300 days on AD I had never lied. I have a little pride for that.

Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made Dec 8 at 2022 12:07 AM

Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis — Thu, 08 Dec 2022 00:07:54 -0500

Welllllllllllllllllll...yes and no. All members of the Enlisted Corps are outranked by all members of the other corps. With that said, cadets are in a learning environment. It is right to instruct a cadet when their conduct warrants it. Cadets who learn these lessons will make better leaders. Doing so in a manner that is respectful will add a lesson that is demonstrated vice one that is merely spoken.

With all that said, cadets are human, too. They are in a new environment, and many are seeking ways to succeed and achieve validation. The fact that they might outrank a member of the Enlisted Corps, and maybe "lord" it over any enlisted person, might be a tactic to achieve this validation, albeit desperate and misguided.

If you find yourself on the receiving end of such treatment, remain calm. Note details. Then, speak with any member of the Cadre. Form a consensus on a plan. This is a teachable moment. If you can make this work, then a better officer might result.

Response by GySgt Eric Samberg made Dec 8 at 2022 12:41 AM

GySgt Eric Samberg — Thu, 08 Dec 2022 00:41:03 -0500

Hey all,
Bring a Cadet around my Marine Corps and they will have the party of their lives. I will introduce them to a few Staff Sergeants and see what happens. They need to stay in their training camp and away from the real world until they are ready to pay the price of a real leader. Ask any Gunny that has to train them and watch them sink or swim, then we will see if they can become true leaders.
Semper Fi.
Gunny Berg

Response by CPO David R. D. made Dec 8 at 2022 12:04 PM

CPO David R. D. — Thu, 08 Dec 2022 12:04:45 -0500

I see this post was initially made back in 2017. In my humble opinion, no cadet out-ranks anyone on Active Duty. They haven't qualified to be a Veteran. They haven't earned or qualified for a DD-214. They are simply a student at some school in a military organization. Their rank only holds authority over other cadets. I was an Air Force ROTC cadet at Oregon State Univ. from '88-'90. My ROTC time doesn't show up on my DD-214, nor did that two years count towards my retirement benefits.

Response by MSgt Randy Bailey made Dec 8 at 2022 12:40 PM

MSgt Randy Bailey — Thu, 08 Dec 2022 12:40:22 -0500

I was a SSGT at Dover AFB in the early 1980’s. Every summer the base hosted ROTC cadets for training. No one ever explained to us where the cadets fell into the chain. Just to stay out of their way while they marched in formation around the base. Now the rest of the story. One summer while attending NCO leadership school a group of us went to the BX during lunch. One of our instructors went with us, which was something the instructors didn’t usually do while class was in session. When we got to the BX there was a small group of cadets milling around outside seemingly deciding where to go. We walked by them with our instructor bringing up the rear. Suddenly one of the cadets yelled at us to stop and began berating us for not saluting them as we passed. Our instructor took over and took the cadets and us aside away from the shopping public. Evidently the instructor had gotten wind that a group of cadets were hanging out at the BX and waiting for unsuspecting enlisted personnel to walk by and not salute. He told them their egos needed adjusting and proceeded to let them know how that was going to be accomplished. First he got their names then the names of their cadet commander and senior military instructor. Told them he expected them to go back to their leadership and explain what they had been doing and he requested to hear back from their leadership. Evidently they didn’t take him seriously. The instructor went to BX the next day and the same cadets were at the BX doing exactly as they were the day before. He went directly to the base commander and reported what had transpired the previous day. That evening the cadet squadron was formed up in front of their dorms, heals locked. The base commander and wing commander were there to observe as well as the wing senior enlisted advisor(E-9)and our instructor. The ROTC senior military instructor, an O-5 addressed the cadets that they hadn’t earned the authority yet to demand salutes from active duty enlisted personnel and that setting ambushes to get saluted was not an example of the leadership he expected from his cadets. After an apology to the wing and base commanders the formation was dismissed except for the BX cadets. They given the humble experience of explaining themselves to their leadership and the hosting base leadership. They were later observed policing various parking lots around the base with trash bags in hand after their classes were concluded for the day for two weeks.

Response by 1LT Mark Fleming made Dec 9 at 2022 1:37 PM

1LT Mark Fleming — Fri, 09 Dec 2022 13:37:42 -0500

I will share with any cadet or new lieutenant what my father, a decorated WWII combat veteran, told me when I became a cadet officer. He said you may outrank an NCO, but you do not even have a tiny fraction of the experience they have. Your job is to do everything you can to enable that NCO to do the best job possible, get out of the way, and let them do it. Keep your mouth shut and learn. I always followed that advice, and my NCOs always had my back as I did theirs. I am now a manufacturing management consultant and share the same advice with the college graduates I work with.

Response by SFC John Gilmore made Dec 12 at 2022 4:01 PM

SFC John Gilmore — Mon, 12 Dec 2022 16:01:42 -0500

A very wise CSM in the deuce (82d Abn) once said to his NCOs "Not every soldier has an officer, but EVERY soldier has a sergeant". Let's face it, the care and feeding of young officers-to-be is NCO business. Many moons ago as an E-5 I was running an 81mm Mortar pit at summer camp familiarizing cadets with the mortar.
Short story... Many years later as an E-7 I was approached by a Major while walking down Ardennes. After salutes were exchanged he asked me if I had been running the Mortar pit back in the summer of '83. When I answered in the affirmative he mentioned that he'd been a cadet then, and the professionalism that my gun crew and I exhibited had inspired him to branch infantry.
Remember... you're training the next generation and act accordingly, you never know how you might influence them.

Response by Maj Dale Smith made Dec 13 at 2022 3:47 PM

Maj Dale Smith — Tue, 13 Dec 2022 15:47:14 -0500

No they don't, not until they raise their right hand and swear to support and defend the constitution. I discovered the day before I was commissio0ned a 2ndLt that I had to sign a piece of paper at the ROTC detachment. I went in and read it and it said that I was officially discharged from the enlisted ranks of the USAF. I said what? The TSGT that was also the clerk said, "Oh yes, you had an AFSC (MOS) to be a bomb jammer on F-105s at Tan San Nuht airbase in the Republic of South Vietnam. He said that wnen I accpted an ROTC scholarship, I had an obligation the the people of the US since they were now footing the bill on my eductaion. If I had read the fine print a couple of years earlier, I would have been somewhat more diligent in my studies.

Response by Robert Murray made Jan 10 at 2023 11:24 PM

Robert Murray — Tue, 10 Jan 2023 23:24:59 -0500

As a Citadel alumnus, I can tell you this: Cadets don't outrank shit.

Response by LTC Anthony Monroe made Jan 11 at 2023 10:17 AM

LTC Anthony Monroe — Wed, 11 Jan 2023 10:17:21 -0500

no, they are students just like ROTC the wear enlisted stripes

Response by MAJ Geiter Dunn made Jan 11 at 2023 3:18 PM

MAJ Geiter Dunn — Wed, 11 Jan 2023 15:18:24 -0500

There's the reg, there's common sense, and there's egos.
The cadets are ostensibly sent to regular units to learn, not stroke their ego. And take into account that they wear rank on their uniform that's unrecognizable to a lot of soldiers.

Response by Capt H. James Hulton III made Jan 11 at 2023 6:15 PM

Capt H. James Hulton III — Wed, 11 Jan 2023 18:15:04 -0500

Cadets have NO AUTHORITY to outrank an NCO, or give orders to an NCO! That is according to the Uniform Code of Military Justice! UCMJ) H James Hulton III, former Captain, USAF, North Wales, PA 19454

Response by Cpl Brad MarkW made Jan 12 at 2023 3:57 AM

Cpl Brad MarkW — Thu, 12 Jan 2023 03:57:25 -0500

I took Military Science 101 for an easy two credits that counted toward my core requirements for graduation. The classroom portion was a series of pretty basic lectures and I actually lent a hand to my instructor when we were going over weapon's systems. The instructor was some kind of an Army Reservist Capt. I think with engineer tabs. Smart guy but as an 0311 Rifleman, current USMC reservist, my working knowledge of most US military small arms and supporting crew served weapons was light years ahead of his. I offered to take over those portions and the infantry tactics portions and he happily accepted. We got along famously and he asked if I could do the same lecture for other MS 101 classes in uniform for extra credit.

I say all that as a prelude to the physical portion. In order to pass the course, students had to attend three PT sessions with the ROTC cadre. PT was at 0630 and I went to my first session but the senior cadets were really acting like mini-drill instructors running around yelling at the junior cadets. It was amusing in a pathetic sense and I just did my own thing moving from PT station to PT station in a mix of cadets and students. The cadets wore color coded "ARMY" shirts, MS students just wore whatever. I wore my USMC silkies and a USMC T-shirt for fun. At one point a senior Cadet decided to get in my face and started a bit of hazing. I began laughing out loud and asked WTF did he think he was doing? I think I said something along the lines of, "Fucking POG cadet, I've got more time on the shitter than you have in the military." I walked away and out of the PT session leaving the cadet to try and figure out what happened.

Later, the Capt approached me at the next classroom time and asked if I saw the incident. Apparently, the cadets were incredulous and wanted to know who the disrespectful student was. I said, "Yes sir, I know exactly who it was, it was me!" LOL. I relayed what happened and he said, "Oh, yeah, they aren't supposed to haze other cadets like that, especially Military Science students. You don't have to do any more of those PT sessions. Sorry about that."

I got an A for the class.

Response by SGT Mike Churchill made Jan 12 at 2023 4:13 PM

SGT Mike Churchill — Thu, 12 Jan 2023 16:13:13 -0500

If your cadet is at your unit for training, they are probably shadowing your LT. Give them the same respect you would to your LT. If you have a solid LT he/ she won't let the cadet pull rank.

Response by PO2 Lawrence Moody made Jan 12 at 2023 9:41 PM

PO2 Lawrence Moody — Thu, 12 Jan 2023 21:41:32 -0500

Yes, there is a precedence case back in the formation of the Navy where a Warrant Officer and a Cadet got into a beef and it was ruled that the Cadet out ranks even the Warrant Officer.

Response by MAJ Jeffrey Johnson made Jan 13 at 2023 3:50 PM

MAJ Jeffrey Johnson — Fri, 13 Jan 2023 15:50:03 -0500

By law a cadet who has successfully completed Advance Camp is an officer without rank and outrank any NCO. That's why we call the Did our Maham! A cadet in the AMP program has similar status although I never confirmed the by law status when I was an Army ROTC instructor. This goes back to the early 1800s when 5he Army had designs before they were commissioned.

Response by Capt H. James Hulton III made Jan 13 at 2023 6:44 PM

Capt H. James Hulton III — Fri, 13 Jan 2023 18:44:50 -0500

Cadets should not even try to outrank experienced NCOs. That would not work in the real world. The UCMJ would not allow that to happen. A cadet trying to outrank an NCO is like a Little Leaguer pitcher trying to pitch in the MLB. Hahahaha!!!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 14 at 2023 7:58 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 14 Jan 2023 19:58:01 -0500

Moot. A 2LT outranks me and ill put a 2LT in their place with approval from the entire battalion. You can quite literally haze a 2LT and get complete approval from the LTC, safety, and probably the IG all at the same time. So imagine a cadet doing this.

Response by PFC Kevin Becker made Jan 15 at 2023 11:42 AM

PFC Kevin Becker — Sun, 15 Jan 2023 11:42:46 -0500

It always amazes me that people forget that RANK and AUTHORITY, are two vastly different things.

Response by CPT Robert Madore made Jan 16 at 2023 10:50 PM

CPT Robert Madore — Mon, 16 Jan 2023 22:50:55 -0500

Only in their dreams. Cadets outrank no one, except other cadets. They are students until they graduate and receive their commission. And then they outrank Non-Commioned-Officers.

I did Summer support of West Point Cadets, as a Captain. Some cadets get big headed sometimes as I experienced that Summer.

I was short handed and responsible for my telephone operators, who were basically running 24 hour shifts to operate the switchboard.

Well, one weekend, my NCOIC AND i decided that we would give my guys a break and the two of us took over the switchboard and gave my enlisted guys a break.

Well, It became quite interesting when some of the cadets on the phone became quite intimidating, thinking that they were still talking to my enlisted operators and were in fact mouthing off to me. Well, I stopped them in their tracxks and offered to discuss this with their real commanding officer. When they found out that a captain was possibly on the other end of the phone line, things quieted down quickly.

When my operators returned on Monday, they quickly found out how nice ithey were treated and wanted to know, why?

Well, my NCOIC told them the story. We had no further problems the rest of the Summer.

The Cadets merely have to be reminded that they are not officers yet, and usually they will behave accordingly.

Response by MGySgt Rick Tyrrell made Jan 17 at 2023 8:26 PM

MGySgt Rick Tyrrell — Tue, 17 Jan 2023 20:26:21 -0500

Short answer “Yes”. Long answer they do not have the intelligence to use that rank properly and would never be able to control a hardened NCO.

Response by CPT Larry Hudson made Jan 18 at 2023 5:38 PM

CPT Larry Hudson — Wed, 18 Jan 2023 17:38:10 -0500

I would think they would like to our rant NCO's but I was a officer candidate once and my pay grade established my rank as a cadet. I was paid as a Sp-5 at that time and respected all and any soldier who had hardened himself with years and or combat.
This new lack of discipiline that is in the military is astonishing and a threat to national security.

Response by SPC Randy Torgerson made Feb 6 at 2023 6:45 PM

SPC Randy Torgerson — Mon, 06 Feb 2023 18:45:59 -0500

I'm not really sure a cadet outranks anyone. Within the school then yes. In real world, I don't believe so.... but I could be wrong. There is a reason they are called cadets and not officers. I just don't think they are actual officers until successful graduation. I might not know what I'm talking about.... :)

Response by Col Thomas Sadlo made Feb 24 at 2023 6:23 PM

Col Thomas Sadlo — Fri, 24 Feb 2023 18:23:57 -0500

No they don't. They are officer candidates.

Response by CPT George Blakey made Feb 24 at 2023 7:32 PM

CPT George Blakey — Fri, 24 Feb 2023 19:32:50 -0500

Only stupid cadets would question their claim they out ranked NCOs! Most don’t know shit!

Response by SGT James Hunsinger made Feb 24 at 2023 11:29 PM

SGT James Hunsinger — Fri, 24 Feb 2023 23:29:31 -0500

My understanding during my career was no they don't because they are not yet commissioned officers. If that is wrong, would like someone to cite the reg that states they do.

Response by SPC Matt Ovaska made Feb 25 at 2023 8:51 AM

SPC Matt Ovaska — Sat, 25 Feb 2023 08:51:30 -0500

In AIT I was asked to be in charge of the GI's in our room. We agreed on the chores we picked to accomplish each day before morning inspection. I told them, as long as they completed their part they would not hear from me. I never had to say a word. I did my daily chore and we passed daily inspections. The other squad leaders could be heard yelling at their squads to do this and that. Some people just like to be the boss. I received an ARCOM for doing things that needed to be done, with out being asked or yelled at.

Response by SFC Herbert Taitingfong made Feb 25 at 2023 1:43 PM

SFC Herbert Taitingfong — Sat, 25 Feb 2023 13:43:02 -0500

Cadets do not out rank the NCO. They are not in the chain of command nor in the rank structure. There is a level of respect but that's as far as it goes until he/she commits to serve in the military. Don't be confused!

Response by SFC Dwayne Barbee made Feb 27 at 2023 9:14 AM

SFC Dwayne Barbee — Mon, 27 Feb 2023 09:14:39 -0500

Just remind them of the average lifespan of new 2nd LT’s in Vietnam and how their inexperience lead to their early demise. Many forget that education does not equal intelligence and certainly doesn’t equal experience. As for respect, I only have to respect the rank per regulations, respect for the person is earned.

Response by PFC Tim Arnett made Feb 28 at 2023 12:28 AM

PFC Tim Arnett — Tue, 28 Feb 2023 00:28:39 -0500

WE HAD A CADET VISIT US ON THE FIRING RANGE, AND NOT ONE OF US EVER SALUTED HIM, NOR WERE WE COMMANDED TO.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2023 9:41 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Mar 2023 09:41:36 -0500

Just say “Rgr that future sir” and continue with your training.

Response by SFC Terry Bryant made Mar 2 at 2023 9:59 PM

SFC Terry Bryant — Thu, 02 Mar 2023 21:59:34 -0500

Had a second Lieutenant yell at me from across the parking lot as I was coming out of TMC. I never imagined he was yelling at me. I ignored him not even looking his way as he was at least 100 feet from me across the parking lot. He continued screaming from the top of his lungs and when I finally decided to turn his way I noticed he was making a V line for me. I turned and looked at the opposite direction and there was no one else for him to be shouting at. I stopped, went to attention, asked the 2nd LT if I could be of some assistance, "sir". He stated in a very high octave voice that I failed to solute him. I asked him what regulation requires an NCO to solute an officer from over 100 feet away who was not even in my direction or view. He could think of none so I reiterated the regulation specifically that dealt with Military Customs, Rank and salutes.

I explained to him that the salute is not simply an honor exchanged. It is a privileged gesture of respect and trust among soldiers. That he should know the salute is not only prescribed by regulation but is also a recognition of each other's commitment, abilities, and professionalism. None of the traits he was displaying at the moment. I offered him my commanding officer's name and rank who was a 1 star general and I would be most happy to stand in front of him while he complained to my boss about my insubordination. I never seen the guy again. You should never allow yourself to deviate from your own professionalism and integrity. Because it is not about them at this point. It is about you and your strengths. Let other people be the idiots by not mirroring them.

Response by SPC Kevin Simmers made Mar 2 at 2023 10:01 PM

SPC Kevin Simmers — Thu, 02 Mar 2023 22:01:42 -0500

As a spec4, I was given the unwanted task of training a group of cadets. One in particular was a cocky loudmouth that tried often to exert his "authority". My CO was awesome. He stepped right in and told that cadet that he had no rank in this man's Army and that as a student he should take the time to learn some humility. He proceeded to stand watch as I entertained myself making his alligator crawl through a mud pit for over an hour. I think he learned a lot that day about respect.

Response by PO1 Sean Reynolds made Mar 4 at 2023 10:43 AM

PO1 Sean Reynolds — Sat, 04 Mar 2023 10:43:15 -0500

Cadets no not out rank NCO's. The do not receive there commission until after graduation and taking the oath of an officer. That's why they are referred to as Cadet Umti-squat.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2023 6:05 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 05 Mar 2023 18:05:50 -0500

LOL! Been there, done that. I was staying in billeting at Charleston AFB, and the clerk put an Air Force Academy cadet in the room with me. They were pretty nice rooms, each with a private bathroom. I was a TSGT (E-6) at the time and thought it was cool. I was going to get a chance to talk to a cadet. But she was insulted that they would put her in a room with a lowly NCO. She went to the front desk and complained, and from what I heard later, her commander was there, and he chewed her out and had her moved to a smaller room usually used by E-1 - E3 and she had to use the common latrine down the hall instead of in the room.

Response by SMSgt Michael Gleason made Mar 6 at 2023 12:07 PM

SMSgt Michael Gleason — Mon, 06 Mar 2023 12:07:54 -0500

To me, cadets are the "Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts" of the military. I particularly "enjoy" watching JROTC "Colonels" flaunt their "rank". So, "NO!", cadets don't "outrank" anyone, except possibly other cadets!

Response by TSgt David Olson made Mar 15 at 2023 5:55 PM

TSgt David Olson — Wed, 15 Mar 2023 17:55:16 -0400

I had an Air Force Academy cadet assigned to me for an entire six-week basic training cycle. I don't remember that I ever saluted him. He insisted that I call him by the nickname he had at the academy, and I was sergeant to him. I instructed my flight to salute him when appropriate. At the end of the six weeks of training, he was preparing to leave, he told me that he was amazed at the amount of training the flight received. I always introduced him by his title "cadet". We had no problems.

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made Mar 20 at 2023 8:03 PM

A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney — Mon, 20 Mar 2023 20:03:25 -0400

NOPE....Cadets Do NOT Out-Rank Non-Coms,
They Just Smell That Way.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2023 8:38 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Mar 2023 20:38:07 -0400

Just curious, now that you are an LT…when you were a Cadet, did you realize that, yes, you technically did outrank every NCO and WO?

Response by SFC Juan Wilkerson, MIT,BIT made Apr 1 at 2023 7:37 PM

SFC Juan Wilkerson, MIT,BIT — Sat, 01 Apr 2023 19:37:49 -0400

This kind of issue maybe a symptom of poor training or preparation of the Cadet Corps. Such conduct should be the exception and not very normal. In addition, mentoring and coaching is the inherent responsibility of every leader. When this rare opportunity presents itself, be ready and mature enough to make the difference needed for that young and aspiring mind. People often function in their hunger and thirst and are not very well aligned with the real mission, vision and values a healthy military member exhibits. Leaders build up and not destroy. Leaders take aspiration and convert it into inspiration. Real leaders inspire.

Response by LTC Jerold Kaplan made Apr 1 at 2023 10:51 PM

LTC Jerold Kaplan — Sat, 01 Apr 2023 22:51:10 -0400

As a fully trained staff surgeon, I started my active service as a Major. Fortunately, it only took me a very short time to realize that Sgt Thomas, our NCOIC, knew more, and was better trained in military matters than I ever would be. He would only give "suggestions" to officers, but we were smart enough to follow all of his "suggestions.

Response by SPC David C. made Apr 2 at 2023 7:12 PM

SPC David C. — Sun, 02 Apr 2023 19:12:50 -0400

So a few years back on deployment, as an experienced Marine Corporal, I was standing in the chow line on ship and had some midshipman tell me I had to call him "sir". "Roger that fuck stick" followed up with a "we can take this someone if you should choose to, college kid" and that was the end of it. My SSGT went to bat for me and that was the last we saw of those pricks the rest of the deployment. Was he a higher rank than me? Yeah, he was. Did I know that at the time? No. Didn't have a clue. If you're a good NCO and you have good leadership, they won't put up with a cadet trying to call you out. At the time all I knew was some shit head waring no obvious rank was asking me to call him sir in the enlisted chow hall. Do they outrank an NCO? Pretty sure they do. Can you put them in their place really fast if they keep pushing? Believe it.

Response by SGT Bill Braniff made Apr 3 at 2023 11:55 AM

SGT Bill Braniff — Mon, 03 Apr 2023 11:55:43 -0400

Fortunately, I was never privy to any Cadets during my service. I was privy to number of Second Lt's in Vietnam and after returning. I will say both experiences were great. Our Company had a standing order of putting new @nd LT's as a squad member until the NCO's and other Officers decided that they could lead the Platoon. After returning from Vietnam I actually lived with 3 new LT's, who were prepping for Vietnam. Every night after eating supper would sit around with a couple beers and they would ask me questions about Vietnam, and leadership there.
I was released from the Army in July 69. In 1970 it was big news that the invasion of Cambodia was on and many were leaving from my former Base camp at Dau Tieng, a satellite camp of the 25th when I was there. For the invasion it was the Big Red One. One of my officers buddies wrote me that he was in. my former camp.. next I heard from him he was a Company Commander, having been the third one is as many days. I never heard from him again, but his name was not on the casualty lists either. I like to think that our evening chats may have had some good to them.

Response by GySgt Marc Dickerson made Apr 22 at 2023 7:46 PM

GySgt Marc Dickerson — Sat, 22 Apr 2023 19:46:41 -0400

Administratively, they do technically hold a higher rank in the formal rank structure. Operationally, they are there to learn, and are not in charge of any part of the operational mission task. Similar to the difference between AdCon & OpCon (Administrative Control vs Operational Control). At my last operational command, I was assigned to IMEF (1st Marine Expeditionary Forces). I was a member of 1st Recon Battalion. But my administrative support command was 1st SRIG (First Surveillance, Reconnaissance, and Intelligence Group). IMEF was the senior parent command of Recon Bn. SRIG was there solely for admin support (SRB, leave papers, shots, annual training, etc...). The cadets had orders to SRIG, and were farmed out to the operational units, but were never formally attached to the operational units. That being said, it was always the job of the NCO's to show these soon-to-be officers how professional we were, and how well we could do our jobs with little to no officer supervision. My rule was to explain to them that it was our job to receive the mission task from the officers, accomplish the mission task, and report "mission accomplished" to the officer that assigned the mission when the task was complete. If a cadet has the time to start talking about who is senior to who, that simply means I as an NCO am not busy enough teaching that young cadet how to get things done, and not to worry about who outranks who. That being said, we were always required to address cadets as "Cadet", and not "Sir". So what the cadets heard was, "Yes Cadet Smith", and not "Yes Sir". But at the same time, I was never disrespectful, nor did I allow my NCO's to ever be disrespectful. This was 1996-98. Things are probably different now.

Response by CPT Leo Coleman made May 6 at 2023 11:35 AM

CPT Leo Coleman — Sat, 06 May 2023 11:35:41 -0400

No.
If they have a promotion warrant which requires those of lesser rank to render obedience to proper orders said cadet may issue from time to time, that would be different. They don't. They have no lawful authority to issue any orders.

They are students. In their student role, they may have some limited authority delegated to them by someone with actual authority to issue lawful orders, but it always goes back to the person in authority who delegated it.

Response by SGM(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2023 4:37 PM

SGM(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 May 2023 16:37:31 -0400

Cadets don’t outrank anyone other than underclass men. Meaning juniors, sophomore and freshmen. A good command team will not allow a cadet to free ball around the AO unless they are accompanied by permanent party Lieutenant. Saluting the Officer enables the Cadet to return salutes to NCOs and JEMs without really being saluted…see how that works?! A Cadet who declares he outranks NCOs has never existed. That’s a Joe rumor that was started by an enlisted bubba - Cadets really are respectful and are like sponges. Help them understand the Army so they can take that knowledge and build their foundation.

Response by PO2 J U made May 7 at 2023 1:34 AM

PO2 J U — Sun, 07 May 2023 01:34:24 -0400

People confuse pay grade and rank. Cadets do not outrank NCO’s. They do not fall in the military hierarchy until they are commissioned. However, they must be held at higher standards.

Response by CSM Tim Bebus made May 7 at 2023 6:11 PM

CSM Tim Bebus — Sun, 07 May 2023 18:11:53 -0400

Don't confuse regulation with reality! Just like MOS schools they teach you the Manuel and then you learn the job at your unit. Strong Officer and NCO Corps fixes any rank issues at the unit!

Response by MSG Pat SingR made May 8 at 2023 2:19 PM

MSG Pat SingR — Mon, 08 May 2023 14:19:30 -0400

Yes, cadets outrank NCOs. But do cadets want to be "Bitches" of other officers who work with the NCOs (MSG, SGM)? That's another question.

Response by SFC Scott Parkhurst made May 8 at 2023 6:30 PM

SFC Scott Parkhurst — Mon, 08 May 2023 18:30:23 -0400

I’ve met a few during my career and had a few during some of my training courses both as an instructor and as a fellow student. I always knew which ones were going to be good officers… those were the ones who didn’t pull the rank card and gave both respect and received respect gracefully…. I learned a lot from some of them as they learned a lot from me. Without us NCO’s they couldn’t function as far as I’m concerned…

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2023 8:45 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 May 2023 20:45:15 -0400

Do they have a commission or a warrant? If yes they outrank a NCO, otherwise unless they have a commission or a warrant then no. They do not get saluted by NCO's and are not commissioned officers until they take the oath and receive a commission or warrant.

Response by MSgt Karl Hawes made May 8 at 2023 9:42 PM

MSgt Karl Hawes — Mon, 08 May 2023 21:42:01 -0400

They haven't been commissioned yet. In my opinion they are just college kids with a commitment after graduation. Called them "Zoomies" when I was stationed at Peterson Field.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2023 5:57 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 May 2023 17:57:56 -0400

The only time I have seen when senior leadership are really concerned with Midshipmen are during summer cruises. Their “negative” comments can get COs a stern talk from Commodores and Admirals.

Response by CSM Thomas McGarry made May 11 at 2023 11:40 AM

CSM Thomas McGarry — Thu, 11 May 2023 11:40:55 -0400

Actually I don't believe they technically do outrank most NCOs as I seem to recall when I was in the Reserves that we would have Cadets come to our Unit and they were paid E-5 pay, thus I would assume that would be the level of their authority.

Response by CPL Sharon Fahey made May 13 at 2023 10:39 PM

CPL Sharon Fahey — Sat, 13 May 2023 22:39:01 -0400

No, absolutely not! We also trained cadets, we were their trainers. They did what we said, when we said it. They had a lot to learn before they slid behind their bars. Frankly, most of them had great attitudes, but a few were arrogant as heck and female.

Response by Sgt Peter McDonald made May 23 at 2023 6:49 PM

Sgt Peter McDonald — Tue, 23 May 2023 18:49:07 -0400

I was a sergeant stationed at Camp Lejeune when my unit hosted a couple of mid shipmen. One day as we were passing, they stopped me and asked why I failed to salute them. I then replied that a salute is for commissioned officers and that their rank as midshipmen were that of a senior NCO. I also stated that I would refer to them as cadet or sir to maintain proper decorum. They accepted my answer and we went our seperate ways....

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2023 3:35 PM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 06 Jun 2023 15:35:51 -0400

Only if they have fish

Response by SGM Art Hudson made Jun 7 at 2023 8:43 AM

SGM Art Hudson — Wed, 07 Jun 2023 08:43:13 -0400

This is where respect comes in, any young officer knows that a senior NCO has the knowledge and maturity to support them. But its also needed that this situation goes both ways, an officer will not use his rank to push around or belittle anyone. And the NCO will not take advantage of the inexperienced officer. Old school they both know there place, stay in your lane.

Response by CWO4 Carter Owens made Jun 7 at 2023 9:35 AM

CWO4 Carter Owens — Wed, 07 Jun 2023 09:35:40 -0400

I believe the United States Code title 10 can outline the answers. Cadets and Midshipmen are unique of course and they should be reminded of that whilst they are in college.

Response by SMSgt Bob Wilson made Jun 7 at 2023 1:10 PM

SMSgt Bob Wilson — Wed, 07 Jun 2023 13:10:08 -0400

CAN WE PUT THIS "DEAD HORSE" TO BED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Response by CPT John Ioia made Jun 8 at 2023 3:30 PM

CPT John Ioia — Thu, 08 Jun 2023 15:30:28 -0400

Cadets Technically outrank all NCO's but as a former Cadet (Several years ago) I was not stupid enough to try and pull rank during summer trainings. I worked with several NCO's, they called me Cadet and I called them Sergeant, We worked very closely and I did everything they did thus earning their respect as a peer rather than a superior. What's the difference between a 2nd LT and a PVT? The private has been promoted once!! Bottom line for all military members, know the difference between rank and authority.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2023 10:01 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 10 Jun 2023 10:01:49 -0400

You want clarity? Yes they sure do. That clear enough for you? As a cadet you won't be deployed so you are not going to talk to some "grizzled old" NCO just come in from Hamburger Hill. You sure do out rank NCOs. I was at the Air Force Academy originally (class of 1997) and usually you don't see cadets put there stupid enough to open their mouths at the wrong time. There is a reason for everything, and if an NCO tells you something, then consider what they say. Because whereas there are "grizzled old" NCOs, there are also NCOs that have their heads so far up their gunny sacks that they don't see any light. Sorry, but it is true. I have had a commander who unfortunately held the rank on a Major and his name was Carl Bergaman. He had his head so far up his rear I am sure he has never been able to pull it out. He wrecked my career and I wrote an non fiction names named book naming him as the 'commander' in charge of Alpha Company OCS unit at Fort Benning that could have done something, but refused to do so. My point is that no matter what rank someone is, they can be idiots - including your NCOs.

Response by SGT Kenneth Rand made Jun 10 at 2023 6:03 PM

SGT Kenneth Rand — Sat, 10 Jun 2023 18:03:12 -0400

No you're only in the military when you begin your commission. A cadet is still just a cadet this was told to me by a Major General. Just like enlisted have a basic active start date if you haven't begun your commission then you're basically a glorified student. Only officers with the rank of 2LT or higher may give orders because they actually hold a rank.

Response by LTC George Morgan made Jun 13 at 2023 2:08 PM

LTC George Morgan — Tue, 13 Jun 2023 14:08:50 -0400

Was commissioned officer for awhile. System set up so officers could be in charge after they learned what makes it function. That mistake is often made by new company employees who thinks that everything is like they put in the books. Company or Agency function along a system which is set up to achieve a result based on nuances which often change. Changes in nuances are often what most people have a hard time adjusting to. I found that in a company, agency, or the military!!

Response by CPO David Ransom made Jun 15 at 2023 10:45 AM

CPO David Ransom — Thu, 15 Jun 2023 10:45:25 -0400

I don't know exactly how it works, but when Midshipmen would show up for duty on our ship, the ones in first or first two years were like seamen. They had a lot of stuff to learn about our Department (Engineering) and would need to be run through systems and get signed off just like the ship's Junior Officers not assigned to Engineering do. We usually didn't see the senior ones, since they were up forward on the AOR's (5 and 3) learning the Operations and Navigation stuff. I don't remember if we had to call any of them "Sir". I think "Midshipman" sufficed.

Response by Sgt Tee Organ made Jun 15 at 2023 5:37 PM

Sgt Tee Organ — Thu, 15 Jun 2023 17:37:40 -0400

For a young officer to disregard their NCOs, no matter where they are in the chain, is by far a foolish mistake. You have the basic respect afforded to an officer but you need to know if you don't already, the experience levels are dynamically different. Bottom line NCOs have seen some s**t. A young officer must recognize this. For a cadet, the youngest of officers, MUST acknowledge that rank has very little to do with actual BF knowledge and experience, if they want to survive and be successful; those NCOs are like gold. You do what they tell you and learn how to use your rank the right way. If not, it's painful and quite dangerous to say the least.

Response by PO3 Deborah Rosen made Jun 15 at 2023 5:51 PM

PO3 Deborah Rosen — Thu, 15 Jun 2023 17:51:52 -0400

Technically yes, but I never met an officer or senior NCO worth their salt who wouldn't back you up if you told the cadet where to stick it.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2023 5:52 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 15 Jun 2023 17:52:50 -0400

The question has been answered extensively below, by regulation cadets outrank all NCOs.
Despite this, it behooves ALL to know when, how, and who to use that rank on (perceived or otherwise).
I observed a Brigade CDR loudly chew out a Major after he verbally confronted the Brigade CSM.

Response by PO1 Robert Ryan made Jun 16 at 2023 9:46 AM

PO1 Robert Ryan — Fri, 16 Jun 2023 09:46:57 -0400

Cadets are not officers yet. Within the corps of cadets other cadets might have more authority over other cadets, but not over active duty NCO's. When I was an MP I had an incident involving a cadet who was on leave during the holiday season. I stopped him for speeding .He tried to tell me that i had no authority to stop him. I reminded him not oily as NCO (I was a SGT then but not confuse his position as a cadet with my authority as an MP).

Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made Jun 17 at 2023 12:09 AM

Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis — Sat, 17 Jun 2023 00:09:52 -0400

Theoretically, yes. Let me be clear, the answer is the affirmative and any NCO who believes otherwise should not be continue in this belief.

Now let's talk about practical matters. Cadets have a job, and that is to learn. Much of that comes from NCO's. Any cadet who does not understand that has no right to continue as a cadet. Any cadet who thinks that they can "lord" their status over any NCO (or any enlisted member) has failed their mission. The officer cadre, particularly the Commander (in the Air Force, that's the Professor of Aerospace Studies, or PAS), would be briefed and would decide if a cadet should be continued in their status. As a cadet, you need to learn, and NCO's are an Excellent source of learning and need to be respected for that fact alone.

Do this, and we will all get along.

Response by MSG Thomas Currie made Jun 17 at 2023 8:39 AM

MSG Thomas Currie — Sat, 17 Jun 2023 08:39:09 -0400

Was this question actually posted by a commissioned officer who had completed pre-commissioning training? Did he sleep through all the "Military Science" courses in ROTC?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2023 2:38 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 17 Jun 2023 14:38:41 -0400

Jesus….
The amount of times I’ve had to to (often on a senior officer’s “hint”) take a new 2Lt to one side with, “Can I have a word, ‘sir’?”….

Response by SGT Juan Robledo made Jun 19 at 2023 5:08 PM

SGT Juan Robledo — Mon, 19 Jun 2023 17:08:12 -0400

NO, unless the rules changed under the Bedridden Administration

Response by CPO Kurt Baschab made Jun 19 at 2023 11:53 PM

CPO Kurt Baschab — Mon, 19 Jun 2023 23:53:01 -0400

The Correct Answer is Yes,
still any NCO or Chief worth his salt, , can handle the cadet or Junior Officer that wants to play games. I myself knew I had become a Chief when I was able to get any officer to say thankyou, after I just got done telling him or her, very respectfully that what he or she wanted was not ever going to happen, because it was a bad ideal, or it was unsafe, they would be back in there cabin, or 3/4 of the way down the passage way before they realized what I had told them . they would always double back to find out why, and how I did that
why was this so easy ?
the answer is simple, the majority of Cadets, and junior officers do not know there ass from a hole in the ground when right out of the Academy. it not there fault, it was no different for me out of boot camp.

this is why the smart Cadet, and Junior officer right out of the Academy will find a Good NCO to mentor him or her, because they realize that is the best way to become a better officer and leader.
the smart cadets and junior officer do not disregard the years of experience and knowledgeable and season NCO Has to offer. the smart Cadets and junior Officers work towards a respectful working relationship with there NCO, I Never belittled or disrespected any cadet or junior officer in front of the crew.
why?
answer, is simple my job was to teach and mentor not belittle or disrespect .

Response by MSgt John Ingersoll made Jun 22 at 2023 2:54 PM

MSgt John Ingersoll — Thu, 22 Jun 2023 14:54:16 -0400

I am a retired SAF master sergeant (E-7) who's last assignment was the Air Force Academy. The answer is NO. The cadets are students and are not members of the USAF. Until they graduate in June to become a 2d Lt in the Air Force, do they outrank and enlisted person. IMO both cadets and enlisted respect each other without regard for their rank.

Response by SSG William Hommel made Jun 26 at 2023 12:01 PM

SSG William Hommel — Mon, 26 Jun 2023 12:01:48 -0400

Yes. Google is your friend even in uniform. It led me to 600-20 that confirms your answer.
https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN32931-AR_600-20-004-WEB-6.pdf

ARN32931-AR_600-20-004-WEB-6.pdf

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made Jun 27 at 2023 8:09 AM

A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney — Tue, 27 Jun 2023 08:09:46 -0400

CADETS Don't OUT-RANK Anyone.
They Just Smell That Way....

Response by CPT Larry Hudson made Jul 6 at 2023 6:59 PM

CPT Larry Hudson — Thu, 06 Jul 2023 18:59:01 -0400

FOOLISH IS ANY OFFICER WHO THROWS HIS RANK AROUND LIKE M&M'S AND HAS A LITTLE WAR GOING WITH NCO'S KNOWING THAT THEY ARE THE ONES WHO GREESE THE WHEELS OF THE MILITARY. I ALWAYS RESPECTED MY NCO'S BECAUSE THEY HELD IN THEIR HANDS THE LIKES AND DISLIKES THAT COULD WIND UP IN YOUR OFFICER EFFICIENCY REPORT RECORDS. NEVER BITE THE HAND THAT HOLDS YOUR CAREER IN THEIRS.

Response by PO1 Terry Scott made Jul 30 at 2023 10:57 PM

PO1 Terry Scott — Sun, 30 Jul 2023 22:57:20 -0400

For some real history the Royal Navy has ship logs back when ships were wooden and men were steel. After a good sea battle when 36 pounders twice the speed of sound could go over two miles and still penetrate two feet of oak it wasn’t unusual for most of the men and all of the officers to be dead. Both ships sinking and the few surviving were from below the water line. It’s documented in a few surviving ships logs. The gunner who was in the powder magazine, maybe the ship’s surgeon, a few who manned the cannons, the pilot from the chart room, a few misc. crew and the junior midshipmen who relayed orders to the lower gun deck. The midshipmen was the ‘almost’ officer in charge and was responsible for all the men, life boat(s) and ship’s log. He was also probably the only one who could use a sextant and navigate. The ones that survived were the crew who made sure he didn’t fail and the midshipmen who let them let him excel. The jr midshipman was maybe 12 years old in command of guys sometimes three times his age. These are great stories for great education and entertainment that shouldn’t be forgotten.

Response by CPT Robert Hampton made Aug 1 at 2023 2:29 PM

CPT Robert Hampton — Tue, 01 Aug 2023 14:29:26 -0400

My dad, a WWII and Korean War vet who remained on active duty and retired as a Lieutenant Colonel, told me when I entered active duty from ROTC:
(1) Never change anything until you fully understand the system, if you start changing procedures and policies without understanding how all the parts interact, you will break the system.
(2) Always listen to the NCOs. They run the army.
My conclusion after 33 years in/with the army, is that lieutenants are apprentice leaders. Their job is to learn and understand. Cadets do well to learn and understand. This is not about rank, it is about learning to lead.

Response by Sgt Ed Beal made Aug 2 at 2023 3:53 PM

Sgt Ed Beal — Wed, 02 Aug 2023 15:53:17 -0400

I thought they were equivalent to SSGT I was stationed at Lowry AFB in Denver we had a wrestling club and although they stopped the cadets that were on base for training from wrestling with enlisted. they said they were equivalent to staff sgt and they should be allowed to continue, some of them were good but the commander put a stop on it. That’s all I remember.

Response by SSgt Clare May made Aug 3 at 2023 11:35 AM

SSgt Clare May — Thu, 03 Aug 2023 11:35:17 -0400

Cadet... Not 2nd lt. Not Commissioned. Cadet... in school... training...not commissioned... just a commitment not yet fulfilled, no butter on the bar... a decal of "I'm gonna be" or "I wanna be"... not active in the field... not werkin for a living... LEARNING to be a leader. Not there yet... I think I can...I think I can...but yet they aint.

So do cadets outrank any non com? Not in my world...If you tried to pull that out rank you shit on me Ida buried your silly young twerp tail ass up an face down then used your ass for a runway light on the inactive flightline, Finally Ida used your last image as a warning to all the others not to be arrogant.

ROTC 1st year or senior year or whatever... they don't have the bar, nor the earned right to brow beat any enlisted active non com.

You asked.

Response by SMSgt Bob Wilson made Aug 3 at 2023 1:24 PM

SMSgt Bob Wilson — Thu, 03 Aug 2023 13:24:26 -0400

YES! YES! YES! And PFCs outrank Generals.

Response by SPC Chris Williams made Aug 3 at 2023 5:54 PM

SPC Chris Williams — Thu, 03 Aug 2023 17:54:05 -0400

1992 the didn't out rank an E3.

Response by SPC Chris Williams made Aug 3 at 2023 5:57 PM

SPC Chris Williams — Thu, 03 Aug 2023 17:57:38 -0400

As per platoon Sargeant.cadet rank symbol isn't in army rank structure.

Response by LT Alex Corsi made Aug 4 at 2023 8:45 AM

LT Alex Corsi — Fri, 04 Aug 2023 08:45:11 -0400

No. IF when graduate, then yes.

Response by CPT Noah Malgeri made Aug 4 at 2023 2:07 PM

CPT Noah Malgeri — Fri, 04 Aug 2023 14:07:03 -0400

There is no actual, meaningful way in which cadets outrank NCOs. I also don't believe that cadets "insist they outrank every NCO." Sounds like a BS story. Here is one easy way to tell: when a cadet and let's say, an E7 are having a conversation, as cadets we were instructed that we need to stand at parade rest for the NCO and the NCO DOES NOT need to stand at attention. Also, have you ever seen an NCO salute a cadet? Of course not.

BS Story

Response by 1SG Dean Mcbride (MPER) (CPHR) made Aug 7 at 2023 11:02 AM

1SG Dean Mcbride (MPER) (CPHR) — Mon, 07 Aug 2023 11:02:46 -0400

My son graduated from West Point and shortly after, he had a full dress military wedding. Prior to rehearsals, dinners, ect, all of the newly commissioned Second Lieutenants in attendance were thoroughly briefed by my son... He gave them the old speech about how the "First Sergeant runs the Company and can make or break a newly commissioned Second Lieutenant". He also gave them a breakdown of my career, the story about growing up with a Retired Green Beret First Sergeant as a father, and told them I would eat them for breakfast if they screwed up anything! I showed up for the wedding in Dress Blue uniform with highly spit-shined bloused boots, and Green Beret. Without a doubt, they were the best group of young lieutenants I have ever worked with!
I also recall the time I told a 2nd Lt. that he needed a haircut. He was very offended by this and made a formal complaint to the Battalion Commander about my insubordination. The BN CSM later told me it was the worst Ass Chewing he ever heard and ended up with the Lt. being ordered to get a haircut and report to me for inspection!

Response by LTC Pete Moore made Aug 11 at 2023 4:11 PM

LTC Pete Moore — Fri, 11 Aug 2023 16:11:55 -0400

Cadets (USMA, ROTC Scholarship) that don't graduate theoretically come in as Privates. They are not really in the Army so.... no. They do get to practice being an Officer but they are NOT Officers. For the record: I was an EM, an NCO, a Cadet, and a Commissioned Officer. A Cadet and a 2LT starting their officership with "I outrank you, do what I say" is a bad start.... Frankly what PSG worth a crap doesn't know how to shape / lead his new officer..... Cadets are civilians with a military or financial obligation to the Government / Army they are NOT Officers!

Response by SGT Jim Wiseman made Aug 22 at 2023 8:51 PM

SGT Jim Wiseman — Tue, 22 Aug 2023 20:51:37 -0400

2009... I'm an E-1 fuzzy at Airborne School. Just out of Basic. I was also a late-life entry at 37-years-old. First cycle of the summer taking in cadets. We're informed that the cadets technically outrank the enlisted, being in school to be officers. From out of the mouths of at least a few of the cadets, they felt weird that especially seasoned RA, most notably NCO's, were required by customs and courtesies to address them as "sir/ma'am."
It's a courtesy granted based on the expectation of where their educational path is taking them. In many ways, in Basic, all recruits are considered "privates," but those who have been granted a rank up to specialist are allowed to wear their rank. It's a courtesy, but without those more overt little commissioned officer privileges granted to cadets. A similar policy is in place for BLC (formerly WLC) where attendees are referred to as "sergeant" for the duration of their stay. Some, especially any privates (usually PFC), get swelled heads and try to lord it over actual sergeants when they had their turns in leadership roles during the school. That was when I was in up to 2016.

It is interesting to see when cadets or even new officers get uppity with high-ranking NCO's, particularly 1SG's and CSM's. Popcorn worthy, indeed! I'm pretty sure cadets are more reluctant to make the assumption about where they are in the pecking order. And, it's more common for the new officers to make the assumption, but is still rare.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2023 10:52 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Aug 2023 22:52:57 -0400

Cadets are still in training and the NCOs are the trainers

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 31 at 2023 11:04 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 31 Aug 2023 11:04:23 -0400

no there not full in the army

Response by PO3 Dale Olson made Sep 4 at 2023 9:05 AM

PO3 Dale Olson — Mon, 04 Sep 2023 09:05:43 -0400

I went thru this on a midshipmen cruise when I was on the USS John S. McCain DL-3. I bet a middy that I could do more pushups than there best guy. If I won they called me Mr and if they won I made and served them coffee every day of the cruise. I did 20 pushups with each arm and with both arms for a total of 80. What they didn't know was that I had weight lifting for 3 years. I won.

Response by MAJ Randy Weaver made Sep 5 at 2023 10:20 PM

MAJ Randy Weaver — Tue, 05 Sep 2023 22:20:01 -0400

Reminds me of the time my father, a USAF Chief Master Sergeant, Korea and Vietnam War veteran, and I were walking down a sidewalk when my dad and I heard a "Hey you," followed by another "Hey you." (We were on a sidewalk next to a two lane street, on base, with pull-in, not parallel parking on both sides. My dad was a large man with a flat top, whitewall haircut in starched fatigues, bloused boots with large, full color, six- stripes and two chevrons on each sleeve. The other person was in Class A uniform with a piss-cutter cap.) My father turned, looked in the direction of the shouts when we heard, "Yeah, I'm talking to you." My dad looked at me and said, "Wait here, I'll be right back."

He double-timed across the street, ran up to the other person, came to attention, snapped off a hardcore salute and a "discussion" ensued. As it progressed, my father was leaning forward, while the "hey you guy" started leaning further and further backward. At the conclusion of their discussion, my dad took a step backwards, snapped off another salute and walked back across the street. When he got back to me, I asked him, "Who was that?"

My dad didn't answer, but said, "When you graduate from the Academy, you'd better never refer to an Air Force Chief as 'Hey you.' If you do and he doesn't rip your ass off, I will."

Apparently, my dad had a discussion with his boss and wing commander, one of seven full colonels on that base. I had met his wing commander, a fighter pilot - an Ace with six kills in WWII and two in Korea, COL Billy Edens. COL Edens told me, "If you, as a second lieutenant, do such a thing, your career is toast; colonels don't even get away with s**t like that." Lesson learned.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2023 9:08 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Sep 2023 09:08:39 -0400

Technically….Cadets don’t out rank anyone SGT or above because they have not been commissioned. Until they commission they can potentially enter service as an NCO/SGT.

Response by Maj William Dozier made Sep 9 at 2023 11:30 AM

Maj William Dozier — Sat, 09 Sep 2023 11:30:55 -0400

Back when I was a senior AFROTC cadet, we were E-1s in the AF reserve. Is this no longer true?

Response by SSG Gregg Mourizen made Sep 15 at 2023 1:10 AM

SSG Gregg Mourizen — Fri, 15 Sep 2023 01:10:59 -0400

A cadet gets paid at the grade of E-5 for Federal OCS and E-6 for state.
You do the math.
I guess it really depends on the situation, but I bet the Cadet will lose.

Response by MSG Thomas Currie made Sep 15 at 2023 10:50 AM

MSG Thomas Currie — Fri, 15 Sep 2023 10:50:18 -0400

This has to be trolling, otherwise the officer posting it six years ago was the most incompetent individual to ever sleep through pre-commissioning training as well has having slept through multiple briefings at MCoE.

He claims to "deal with cadets a lot" which would imply that he is in a position where this would be part of his assigned duties. I realize that standards at the MCoE declined after it was taken over by the Infantry School, but even so it seems unbelievable that anyone in a position to "deal with cadets a lot" would not have been briefed on this exact point.

Response by SGT Juan Robledo made Sep 19 at 2023 8:36 AM

SGT Juan Robledo — Tue, 19 Sep 2023 08:36:16 -0400

No freaking way

Response by LT William Pellegrini made Oct 13 at 2023 5:15 PM

LT William Pellegrini — Fri, 13 Oct 2023 17:15:42 -0400

It has been my experience that maybe an 0-3 outranks a CPO. It is incumbent on the ranking officer to sit down with a Cadet and explain to them that they know next to nothing about how a branch or squad works. And to keep from embarrassing themselves they should always ask the ranking enlisted for their opinion before issuing orders or making a decision. As a senior NCO I might advise you to have a talk with your current Officer and get him to explain the way things actually work in a squad or branch or platoon. Explain that a Cadet might outrank a CPO, but a Cadet has no idea of how a company or platoon really works, so a Cadet should always confer with the senior NCOs before issuing orders.
Just how I tried to do things when I was a wet behind the ear Ensign whose rank bar was so new it wasn't scratched. Hope this helps.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 15 at 2023 11:38 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Oct 2023 11:38:33 -0400

Don't know the answer and don't care. What I do know is that 99% of NCOs know more than most cadets will learn during 4 years of any military academy. If it were not for many of NCOs that I served with I probably would not have earned my 'eagle"! I gave one of my silver oak leaf's to my CSM when I was promoted to LTC. He earned it!

Response by 1SG Patricia Jones made Oct 18 at 2023 5:31 AM

1SG Patricia Jones — Wed, 18 Oct 2023 05:31:41 -0400

How is it possible that "Cadet" who are civilians and taken no oath of office out rank a Noncommissioned Officer? Let's say for the purpose of training scenarios they are placed in an Officers position, then and only then will that Cadet with be put above the NCO. (With clear training guidance and guidelines)

Response by SPC Mark Mims made Oct 18 at 2023 8:40 PM

SPC Mark Mims — Wed, 18 Oct 2023 20:40:34 -0400

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2023 7:53 AM

1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Oct 2023 07:53:10 -0400

LOL... They still have their momma's milk on their breath. Humility is a beautiful thing for leaders, especially young ones that have no practical experience.

Response by SGT Kenneth Rand made Oct 27 at 2023 7:48 PM

SGT Kenneth Rand — Fri, 27 Oct 2023 19:48:37 -0400

No they do not! Only those who hold a rank can tell a non commissioned officer what to do. Unless they are a 2LT. And have a commission they cant give an order for shit. I trained Cadets when at Aberdeen and the one who told me he out ranked did push ups the entire time I gave my safety speech. So absolutely not that being said that's not to say they won't remember your name.

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Oct 29 at 2023 2:05 PM

1SG James Kelly — Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:05:37 -0400

And 2lts outrank 1SGs.
And once upon a time...............................

Response by Capt Charles Morrison made Nov 3 at 2023 4:45 AM

Capt Charles Morrison — Fri, 03 Nov 2023 04:45:58 -0400

What happens when the new 2LT has a bigger rack than most of the NCOs he meets? I spent 10 years in the Army (Including Vietnam service) left to fulfill my promise to my Father to get a degree. I went to AFROTC and graduated receiving a commission as a 2LT. At my first assignment everyone was set to "Haze" the newbie, and I meet them with a nice sized rack of ribbons. (Including a Good Conduct Medal with 2 clusters.) They soon learned I was just as competent as my ribbons indicated.

Response by SGT Christopher Sigafoos made Nov 5 at 2023 2:12 PM

SGT Christopher Sigafoos — Sun, 05 Nov 2023 14:12:43 -0500

According to AR600-20, yes. According to actual military experience, the CO will ALWAYS have the backs of the more experienced NCO's.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 14 at 2023 12:40 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 Dec 2023 00:40:21 -0500

My last reserve unit was a SROTC unit on Ft Knox. So I drilled at the University of Dayton as an instructor. When that topic would come up, I would advise them to learn from the NCOs before trying to lead them. Same goes for most 2nd LTs.

Response by Cpl Jeff Ruffing made Jan 14 at 2024 10:03 PM

Cpl Jeff Ruffing — Sun, 14 Jan 2024 22:03:25 -0500

I love cadidiots a lot. When one got feisty, I would approach and say,” Thank God you’re here sir. I know you and you alone are the only one that can help me out.” I found out it instantly turned the cadidiot from a firecracker to a very, very helpful person. Usually they would ask how they could help. I would tell them I need a tool ( left handed smoke wrench, illuminating grid squares, T R double E grease or my personal favorite B A 100 Novembers. I would tell them a high ranking officer held that tool, and if they could “pretty please” go to that person and get the tool I needed , he would show great leadership in providing a trooper with support. Damn thing was, I’d never see that cadidiot ever again.

Response by CW3 Charles Morris made Jan 14 at 2024 10:07 PM

CW3 Charles Morris — Sun, 14 Jan 2024 22:07:40 -0500

That's one of those, "Yes, but..." educational moments. Remember, if you treat a Cadet like crap, karma may get you. He or she could become your platoon leader. It's better to be a mentor than an arse.

Response by SSG Gregg Mourizen made Jan 25 at 2024 11:46 PM

SSG Gregg Mourizen — Thu, 25 Jan 2024 23:46:32 -0500

This is where Rank and Grade become interesting.
An officer Candidate holds the renk of Officer, but is at the Grade of E-5 (E-6 for National Guard). I'm not sure where cadets fit into that structure, but I don't think that really matters.
They are officers, tho not commisioned yet, and should be treated as such. If they want to lead let them lead and gain experience. As an NCO, you need to guide and correct,to keep them in the right direction.
However, when it comes to Grade In a spitting match the NCO will probably win. All the officers know the cadet/candidate is there to learn. Sometimes they need to be reminded of this. Should one dare to try and tackle a senior NCO, we all know who will happen.
Remember, the only thing scarier than a Leiutenant wit a compass, is a Cadet who thinks he knows what he is doing.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2024 11:16 AM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Feb 2024 11:16:32 -0500

Cadets and OTs are students in a "training status" and "rank" basically as an E-5 (junior most NCO) as far as hierarchy and level of responsibility goes. They are not entitled to "Sir/Ma'am" titles nor salutes until they commission. Though many of us do use Sir/Ma'am to help prepare and train them.

Response by LT Marsha Holden made Mar 3 at 2024 4:56 PM

LT Marsha Holden — Sun, 03 Mar 2024 16:56:29 -0500

I’m an officer and I went through the ranks. I was enlisted first before I became an officer,(in the navy we call them’mustangs’), I respected all ranks as I climbed the ladder and I never forgot my enlisted friends. Everyone respected me for that.

Response by LTC Anthony Broussard made Mar 26 at 2024 1:59 PM

LTC Anthony Broussard — Tue, 26 Mar 2024 13:59:21 -0400

As a 3yr ROTC Scholarship Cadet. I always considered the rank of “Cadet” on the Army Reserve contract I had to sign and swear into as nothing more than a “pay status.” It gave the Army finance system the ability to place me in the system and pay for my tuition, books and a small $100 a month stipend. That’s it. Since I knew that 3yr Army Reserve Contract was meaningless after I was commissioned. That is it never existed as far as Army benefits, retirement, VA eligibility. That contract, like my “Pay Status” of “Cadet” in the Big Picture meant absolutely nothing.

Response by CSM Colin Patterson made Mar 26 at 2024 6:27 PM

CSM Colin Patterson — Tue, 26 Mar 2024 18:27:00 -0400

Yes they do ROTC Westpoint cadets WO candidates and OCS candidates outrank enlisted soldiers. See AR 600-20 table 1-1

Response by SP5 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2024 1:50 AM

SP5 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 Mar 2024 01:50:38 -0400

Not back in my ROTC days.

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made Mar 28 at 2024 3:38 AM

A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney — Thu, 28 Mar 2024 03:38:50 -0400

They MAY Out-Rank Many...
Either THAT, Or They Just Smell Funny

Response by SSgt Randall Morrow made Mar 29 at 2024 5:11 PM

SSgt Randall Morrow — Fri, 29 Mar 2024 17:11:03 -0400

While working at the Air Force Academy I was a part of a contracted company that provided security at the gates and other areas as needed. Being that we were a civilian company doing crucial security at the gates, one of the rules we were informed of was the fact that the cadets DID NOT have any rank until they received their commissions at graduation. They would carry a silver dollar with them to give to the FIRST Salute from an enlisted individual.

Response by Cpl Ronald Mangrum made Mar 29 at 2024 8:56 PM

Cpl Ronald Mangrum — Fri, 29 Mar 2024 20:56:46 -0400

I really can’t speak for the Army because I am a Marine! In the Corps we did not have cadets. A Non- Commissioned- Officer would be far above a cadet! And a NCO would have a cadet for lunch! OOHRAH USMC!

Response by PO1 Kevin Dougherty made Mar 31 at 2024 11:49 PM

PO1 Kevin Dougherty — Sun, 31 Mar 2024 23:49:48 -0400

As an E-6 LPO in my department, (and before that XPO of my unit,) I never had an issue with Cadets or JO's in my experience at least the CO always made it a point to emphasize to the JO's rotating through my department that in operational matters I was in charge, and they were there to learn, and that I would ask for their assistance as appropriate, otherwise they were to observe and ask questions. I only had issues with one, an Ensign, and a word from me to the Ops O straightened him out. Unfortunately, that was a regular occurrence. I heard later on that he never made it past JG getting out after getting passed on the LT list.

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Apr 1 at 2024 4:45 PM

SFC Robert Walton — Mon, 01 Apr 2024 16:45:02 -0400

NO they are Cadets still in the training faze. Once they are pinned butter bar. They do, However Nco's treat them with respect. They make No decisions that are not approved by someone in a Leadership position. But then it's Been a while since i have been in so that could have changed. I have heard a boy scout leader has more rank than a SPEC 4 does these days.