Do cases ever warrant an officer taking immediate action and smoking a soldier or NCO?

2014-01-26T21:10:09-05:00

I was raised that an Officer should leave corporal punishment to NCOs.

Recently I saw an officer smoking a senior NCO. Later realizing it was somewhat of a joke, although the NCO did do something unprofessional as a joke it was very very minute.

It just made me think back to all the times I have heard "that's NCO business" when it comes to smoking a soldier or a Senior NCO smoking an NCO.

Do cases ever warrant an officer taking immediate action and smoking a soldier or NCO. Or should all cases be directed through that soldier or NCOs supervisor? Is corporal punishment an NCOs job and if so why? If not then why also?

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2014 9:13 PM

2014-01-26T21:13:07-05:00

I've seen this a few times in my career where a younger officer wants to be the disciplinarian often it fades with counsel from either the commander or 1SG

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Jan 26 at 2014 9:13 PM

2014-01-26T21:13:46-05:00

This is an NCO tradition. Done properly it can be a motivator to the entire squad/platoon. Officer's have no business being involved in this. That shows a sign of inexperience in my opinion. Since I wasn't there, I can't judge but it may have been a playful thing to a Sr. NCO who is known for smoking joes or whatever. Who knows?

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jan 26 at 2014 9:37 PM

2014-01-26T21:37:42-05:00

NCO's are not authorized to "punish". We are only authorized to train Soldiers. Only Commanders may impose punishment.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2014 9:46 PM

2014-01-26T21:46:15-05:00

I disagree, in principal, with the seperation of "NCO business" when it comes to standards. Leaders are leaders. NCOs, WOs, Os.....all of us are responsible to maintain the standard.

Yes, that means that sometimes someone needs to step up smoke those that are usually dealing it out. I have had a CO smoke the entire Company before, with good reason. I would prefer to see a 1SG or CSM smoking a SSG or SFC, but if I saw a CPT dishing it out....I would think that the NCO must have really jacked up big time. Most Officers I know do not step into this role lightly, if ever. However, corrective training can be an amazing tool when needed. I typically will assigned extra duty or details when it comes to me since by the time word gets to me the event is a bit older and the application of corrective training is less impactful.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2014 11:13 PM

2014-01-26T23:13:34-05:00

Historical Note ( Corporal Punishment ):

"With respect to flogging using a cat of nine tails, the maximum number of lashes allowed was limited to a dozen by 1750. But, flogging wasn’t completely banned until the 1880s."

Per popular opinion "Flogging made a bad man worse and broke a good man's heart."

I gather that SGT Blackburn was referring to Extended PT; not a return to Military Flogging.

If we must return to flogging, I would certainly defer to my Senior NCO to get it done right.

Anyway, I thought that Military Flogging was more of a Navy tradition not an Army tradition.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2014 11:26 PM

2014-01-26T23:26:47-05:00

Very rarely have I seen an Officer 'smoke' an NCO…even when I was enlisted…let alone, a Senior NCO.  There were usually other more senior NCOs that would 'correct' the NCO before an officer had to intervene.  <div><br></div><div>Now - the "NCO Business" deal.  No such thing…as my 1SG told me when I was a young 2LT.  While there are things that are traditionally NCO roles…it's all "Leader Business".</div>

Response by SSG John Arp made Jan 27 at 2014 12:03 AM

2014-01-27T00:03:27-05:00

<p>Hmmm, Officer's business, and NCO business, I say stay in your lane.  An officer should never smoke an NCO, especially not in front of the soldiers.  Take it behind closed doors and make the issue clear and handle your business respectfully, NCOs run soldiers in garrison traditionally.  There is a normal chain of command and that is the officer sends the orders out, NCOs make them happen, to easy.  If the issue is with a junior NCO then grab his/her PLT Sergeant and take it behind closed doors.  NCO=Non-commissioned OFFICER, and carries the authority to enforce UCMJ just as an officer does.  When an officer does not respect the authority of an NCO and displays that disrespect in front of the troops it makes a bad impression on the officer first and then the NCO.  It effects troop morale and their willingness to follow that officer or NCO in wartime. </p><p><br></p><p>During my 17+ years in the Army I have never seen an NCO smoked by an officer outside of a class environment, but that is everyone being smoked (like jump school, etc.)  But I have known of many situations of an officer asking an NCO to go talk with them in private, I have even seen this with field grades addressing a laterally promoted Corporal.  It is appropriate to address a situation, leave no problem unresolved, but do so in the appropriate manor.</p>

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2014 1:39 AM

2014-01-27T01:39:07-05:00

I think smoking is potentially dangerous and I hate the smell. But I loathe PC's effect upon freedom of expression.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2014 9:46 PM

2014-01-29T21:46:19-05:00

Praise in public and discipline in private.<br>

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 7 at 2014 6:13 PM

2014-03-07T18:13:47-05:00

I always saw "corrective training" as NCO business. The more serious punishments like paperwork and things that follow you for your career were things I associated with the officer side of my chain of command.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2014 10:18 PM

2014-03-08T22:18:06-05:00

I think an officer is well with their right to smoke a Soldier if the need arise but I have not been in that situation. I have gone to someone's leadership and let them know their Soldier is jacked and let them smoke their sack. I have never heard or seen an SNCO getting smoked and this is just unprofessional.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2014 1:39 PM

2014-03-12T13:39:07-04:00

I once had a fellow PL who told the Company XO that she would smoke her PSG if the platoon failed to get a certain mission done on time. She said this in front of the PSG and several squad leaders who were also in the room. The PSG was dumbfounded. The XO blew a gasket. He told everyone to get out except for that PL. He closed the door, put her at the position of attention for a very loud butt-chewing, and then had her do some push-ups for a while. Needless to say, we never had that problem again. Some cases absolutely can call for immediate action and a few exercises for emphasis. Not all cases need be directed through an NCO necessarily, but good judgement is essential. Undermining your PSG in front of his subordinates was not good judgement and the PL suffered for it in several different ways. I think a lesson can be learned from that incident for most kinds of corrective training.

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Mar 12 at 2014 5:42 PM

2014-03-12T17:42:17-04:00

An officer is supposed to take it "inside" if there is his/her need to handle business with regard to NCO/Soldier SNAFUs. Usually it will also allow insight, thought and save face in front of others. NCOs are to handle the lashings on the spot, officers should limit themselves to verbal correction and get to the bottom if counseling is to occur on paper! Just my two cents, never seen a RLO administer smoke other than airborne and air assault school.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2014 12:42 PM

2014-03-14T12:42:56-04:00

It's an Officer's jurisdiction (as a "Gentleman"--the MCM's wording, not mine) to impose nonjudicial punishment. In this NCO's opinion, it's up to NCOs to impose Corrective Action. If there aren't NCOs around accomplishing their duty to enforce the standards, the Officer may be forced to "accomplish" the NCO's job. This is, of course, the wrong answer. HOWEVER, I think it is highly unprofessional for an Officer to impose Corrective Action on an NCO.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Mar 14 at 2014 1:23 PM

2014-03-14T13:23:48-04:00

<P>I just can't understand an officer smoking an NCO!  Part of the problem is which would be worse....the smell of burnt skin/hair or the smell of burnt feet??  Either one should be enough to discourage smoking NCOs....</P>
<P> </P>
<P>As to the 'military sense' of smoking someone, I think it would depend on the working relationship of the people, what is common, what is expceted, and location.  I hope it was not done in an area that would be seen by everyone, unless this is part of the unit custom.  Let the punishment fit the crime, but at the same time, needs to be descrete to help the NCO maintain good order and dicipline in the unit.  Just my personal opinion.</P>

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2014 2:19 PM

2014-03-14T14:19:23-04:00

Only seen this happen once and it was warranted.... that being said if you give someone "corrective incentives" you better being leading and doing it with them IMHO.

Response by SSG Mike Angelo made Mar 15 at 2014 5:40 AM

2014-03-15T05:40:31-04:00

Here is my thing. If you make an on the spot correction, be right first.<div><br></div><div>Don't correct someone who is farting in formation when you are just as guilty.</div><div> </div><div>Before you correct a Soldier for his/her uniform...check your uniform first before you engage in the conversation. </div>

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2014 10:36 AM

2014-03-15T10:36:19-04:00

I typically tell my NCOs that corrective training is their lane and administrative discipline is my lane. If there corrective training measures are not achieving the desired results with respect to a Soldiers conduct, then I will move down the administrative lane. With respect to NCO business, I was an NCO for 8 yrs before commissioning and I believe in NCO business. I also believe that as a PL/CO all business in your unit is your buisness. Thus, if something is truly NCO business, then as the PL or CO I shouldn't find out about it, because then it becomes my buisness. This mentality seems to have worked well for me as an NCO and as an Officer.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2014 11:03 PM

2014-03-18T23:03:00-04:00

All responses have been said that I would have said, but I will add only this. If an officer needs to smoke, then this usually means to me NCOs don't know how to instill discipline. Time to rethink the commander philosophy. My two cents.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2014 9:44 AM

2014-03-19T09:44:07-04:00

While I can't say I agree with the term corporal punishment, I do believe that it is an NCOs job. As a Drill Sergeant once told my platoon, it isn't smoking, its called CAPE: Corrective Action through Physical Excercise. It is an NCOs job, seeing as the NCO is there to ensure that standards, training, and the discipline of Soldiers fall within the standards set forth by the Army. The way I have always come to know the Army, Officers are there to lead and manuever the platoon, while the NCO ensures that Soldiers are ready to execute the Platoon Leaders plan.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2014 4:10 PM

2014-03-28T16:10:32-04:00

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2014 4:36 PM

2014-03-28T16:36:52-04:00

Right off the top of my head I feel that is NCO business because the soldiers leader is the one who needs to be tracking his soldiers wrongs doings in case he needs to put it in a counseling later on for other wrong choices that soldier may make.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2014 11:12 PM

2014-03-28T23:12:03-04:00

Unless the issue requires immediate attention/action because of a life threatening or similar situation, as a commander, you should let your NCO train (not punish) your soldiers. If the NCO has already taken the proper steps to correct the behavior but has not worked, that is when the commander would step in to take the proper steps and correct the behavior (hence CoC). As far as "NCO business" I do not agree with that. As an officer you are held responsible for anything your unit does or fails to do. Therefore, I feel that anything within that officer's unit is his/her business. Lastly, a disagreement between the officer and NCO should be discussed in private. I would not see a reason to "smoke" an NCO ever. There should be discussions involved and if the officer thinks that the NCO is at fault for one reason or another, either counsel or refer to CoC if necessary.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2014 7:39 AM

2014-03-29T07:39:33-04:00

Against a junior enlisted, the three instances where I feel an officer has an obligation to act is if the soldier disrespects an officer, disrespects an NCO, or life, limb, or eyesight are at risk. <br><br>However. Smoking an NCO is not professional, warranted, or prudent. If the NCO is messing up...counsel him/her. They are professional leaders. Treat them accordingly. 

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2014 3:33 AM

2014-04-05T03:33:31-04:00

Officers and NCOs are Leaders, so it's Leaders Business to correct and/or conduct on the spot corrections. There is a place and a time to address any kind of these measures, and bottom line it should be conducted IAW set regulations. RESPECT and DIGNITY should be what guide us as Leaders to rehabilitate our Soldiers when they need it.

Response by CW2 Jonathan Kantor made Apr 8 at 2014 11:05 AM

2014-04-08T11:05:35-04:00

You should never smoke any Soldier regardless of rank. In BCT, it is used as a means of both getting you in shape and disciplining you. When you are no longer an IET Troop, you shouldn't be smoked. The real Army (And other branches) have ways to deal with disciplinary matters. All smoking does is reinforce to the person being smoked that you either don't know how to handle the Soldier so you lose their respect and it reinforces their opinion that you are an asshole. Physical punishment is really not effective at all outside of IET.

That being said, an Officer has absolutely no business dropping anyone. If it comes to that, you need to get another NCO to handle it.

Have I dropped NCOs before? Yup... but only as a joke and a lot of the time, NCOs just drop in front of me to let their Troops know that they are not infallible. At that point, it's more of a game than anything else. But in all seriousness, I would never drop anyone. When my guys screw up, I explain to them what they did wrong and tell them how to fix it. I sometimes 4856 them and sometimes I don't.

Response by SFC Craig Dalen made Apr 9 at 2014 1:59 PM

2014-04-09T13:59:03-04:00

The officer should not smoke an NCO or Soldier. Officers have specific duties and responsibilites and so do NCO's. Remember that in the NCO Creed "Officers in my unit will have maximum time to perform their duties. They will not have to accomplish mine." Personnel is a duty of the NCO. The only Officer punishment should be punitive.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2014 1:21 AM

2014-04-26T01:21:23-04:00

Just my stupid opinion, but I leave corrections of enlisted to my NCO. I feel it's their position and right to do it. I will correct the NCO, and that should be disseminated out. I honestly feel that I'm over stepping to correct junior enlisted directly. That's the NCOs job.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2014 12:45 PM

2014-04-26T12:45:04-04:00

First, I'd like to point out that in accordance with current regs, no one should get "smoked". Drill Sergeants operate off different regs than active Army, so they can utilize PT as a means of corrective action. Outside the realm of TRADOC it shouldn't be tolerated. From the training I've recently received, the most anyone can make anyone else do is 5 repetitions at normal cadence of ONE PRT-type exercise and it must be on the spot. You can't let someone screw up all day and hit them with 15 different exercises, legally.

I will verbally counsel anyone if I think it needs to be done immediately, otherwise my NCOs handle it. I would NEVER "smoke" someone because it only gets part of the point across. I expect my PSG to correct their Squad Leaders, and Squad leaders to correct their team leaders, team leaders correct Soldiers (except in more serious situations where it is appropriate for SL, PSG, or myself to directly correct that Soldier).

Response by COL Robert White made Apr 27 at 2014 1:52 AM

2014-04-27T01:52:24-04:00

I have never observed an Officer smoking an enlisted soldier. I never subscribed to that method. My opinion, let the NCO's work the magic that they are famous for!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2014 5:47 AM

2014-05-01T05:47:24-04:00

Do you mean, 'wall-to-wall counseling' ? Corporal punishment is another word for spanking.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2014 12:24 PM

2014-05-01T12:24:26-04:00

As 1LT, I smoked an NCO one time. My Platoon Sergeant wasn't around and I beleived that is how he would have handled it if he were there. When he saw me, he reminded me that was NCO Business. I reminded him that I was prior enlisted and old habits died hard. But I also told him I understood and it would not happen again.

Looking back on it, I should have waited and had my Platoon Sergeant address the issue or in the moment had the next senior NCO handle it in his absence. Ever since then, I have simply made the appropriate NCO aware of the problem and let them handle it. My NCOs have never let me down and have proven to me, time and again, why they are the backbone of the Army.

Response by PO1 G. Leslie /Stiltner made May 28 at 2014 10:18 PM

2014-05-28T22:18:41-04:00

Ok I'm going to throw it out there, but please don't Vote me Down, What kind of rolling paper do you use when "smoking" an NCO or for that matter any soldier? Also can you please let me know does this 'Smoking" show up on a piss test? You guys get it, I suppose "smoking" refers to disciplining your subordinates. I have been dressed down once or twice in my Navy Career, (stubborn, and opinionated gets you in trouble every time) It was always by my Shop Chief or Division Chief. It was always done in private, as it should be done!!

Response by SSG Charles Lovelace made May 29 at 2014 12:46 AM

2014-05-29T00:46:43-04:00

In the Army I cane up in it was not an Officer's job or responsibility to "smoke" anyone. When it is an issue that needs to be addressed it should be addressed at the Lowest level possible level and if done correctly it should never even come to the Officers attention unless other means of punishment need to be brought to bear. As for an Officer smoking a Senior NCO whether in jest or not it should never be done in front of anyone subordinate to the NCO. Once you do this publicly if the wrong Junior Enlisted is witness you may have effectively removed some of the authority of the NCO in their eyes.
I am a firm believer of praise publicly and discipline privately to save face for not only the NCO but for those who would witness it as well.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Jun 22 at 2014 5:49 PM

2014-06-22T17:49:17-04:00

I think if they have issues with smoking, they should seek help way before smoking an NCO...or any other human being.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2014 2:28 PM

2014-07-21T14:28:20-04:00

Outside of good-natured ribbing or some in-joke between them, absolutely not.

If the soldier needs legitimate correction, the officer should find that soldier's supervisor and have them correct it. NCOs are the DO in "doing something" about soldiers' corrections.

It's similar to how officers write the OPORDs, with the who, what, why, when, and where... but the NCOs determine how.

Response by SFC Stephen Carden made Jul 22 at 2014 11:21 PM

2014-07-22T23:21:37-04:00

YOU CAN'T SMOKE A ROCK!!!!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 31 at 2014 9:34 AM

2014-08-31T09:34:23-04:00

"smoking" is illegal Army wide. Regardless of the fact an Officer should not be "smoking" a Non Commissioned Officer. I saw a W01 smoking a SSG and literally embarrassed for the SSG. Did I say something? No because as a SSG he should have had the intestinal fortitude to stop it himself. If an Officer ever does tell me to drop, as per Army doctrine he has to get down with me and I will inform him about my ability to do 60 pushups in 30 seconds followed lets rock......

Response by SSG Anthony Richardson made Sep 4 at 2014 3:30 PM

2014-09-04T15:30:23-04:00

As a retire NCO and former NCOA instructor here is my take on corporal punishment and NCO business. First I believe that NCO’s gave that power away, by not taking charge of any and all situations. Call it being a bully, mean or just downright nasty. But my soldiers knew they needed to come to me first. And I was never their friend I may have shared a joke with them and even a drink but I was still never there friend. I took care of my men I was there for them when they needed me and even when they wished that I wasn’t. I believe the term is “HARD BUT FAIR” because that’s the way I was taught. I always tried to tell students about how the NCO/ OFFICER game is played and this is the best I can give you. Look at the game as a NASCAR race there are three elements involved.
1. The car / soldiers
2. The pit crew/ NCO’s
3. The driver/ OFFICER’s
Now the car must be in tip top condition at all times if you want to win the race. And it’s the pit crew’s job to get it there and keep it there. By inspecting it and running it thought drills over and over again. Once this is done the driver is going to come out of his well-furnished office and climb behind the wheel. Then he will proceed to drive that car like a mad man red lining it all the way. Once he is either satisfied with the performance or has found something wrong with it. He’s going to pull in and tell you you’re not doing your job an fix it. Or tell you everything went great.

I hopes this helps you out.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 19 at 2014 10:06 PM

2014-09-19T22:06:43-04:00

I've always heard the term "the punishment should fit the rank", meaning as you go up in rank, you get different punishments. Not in the severity of punishment, but in the type of punishment.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2014 4:40 AM

2014-09-20T04:40:07-04:00

I suppose it depends on what the situation is. In most cases no one needs to be smoked or chewed out. Sometimes pulling someone aside and just sternly letting them know that they are out of line gets the job done. I have dressed down a few in my day. I hated every minute of it. I have seen the other direction where an NCO chews out an Officer. Granted probably only happens most of the time in the Air Force. I have seen it and intervened.

I once sternly told a Master Sergeant he was out of line when I was 1Lt. He was dressing down a Captain for a small uniform infraction at Al Udeid. I pulled him aside and told him even though he was correct about the uniform issue, that he was incorrect towards his decorum in handling the issue when addressing an officer. I did not do it in public we went behind a building and the chat. He was apologetic and we moved on. Then I went back inside and respectfully told the Captain of what I thought of the situation. I let him know that he should not have stood there and took the chewing out and that this he was not being a good example towards the younger personnel. If it looks ok for a Captain to be chewed out by an NCO than what does that say about the younger troops in terms of following an officers direction.

Now that does not mean at the time I thought I was better than the MSgt. I have high regard for the SNCO's, I know even as a field that there are enlisted are some the most experienced experts in their fields. However, whether we like it or not the military is a system of hierarchy. This does not change in civilian world either. In the corporate world many people have bosses that are well younger and less experienced in specific tasks. It is how the world works.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 29 at 2014 7:02 PM

2014-09-29T19:02:32-04:00

In my military I have never seen an Officer 'smoke' an NCO. I think that corporal punishment shouldn't be just an NCOs job. All Leaders should have the responsibility of corporal punishment. At my unit there is a shortage of NCOs, so just leaving the responsibility to the NCOs would put a huge burden on them. I was raised that an Officer should leave corporal punishment to NCOs, but there are some circumstances that requires all Leaders to be responsible for corporal punishment.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2014 5:40 PM

2014-09-30T17:40:33-04:00

IMHO, an officer that is aware of what it takes to achieve the best for his/her Unit, the Army, and his/her military career, should at the least instinctively know not to go anywhere close to 'smoking' any NCO.

Officer - Your responsibilities in your relationship with NCOs is to learn every bit from the NCOs. If there occurs the instances where there is the need to make any sort of corrections on an NCO (should NEVER involve 'smoking'), make appropriate and helpful corrections, and only in an environment where only NCOs and officers are present. There will NEVER be a need for an "on the spot" correction of an NCO by an Officer, NEVER!

However, on very rare occasions where an "on the spot" correction is needed for a soldier and no NCO is taking charge to correct that soldier, I'll allow for an officer to do the "on the spot" correction and deal with it later with the NCO. This is just my reasoning, without specifically abstracting Regulations.

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Oct 2 at 2014 12:09 AM

2014-10-02T00:09:28-04:00

Officially, corporal punishment is nobody's business.

That said, disciplinary counseling exemplifies the difference between commissioned and non-commissioned officers (warrants are by definition unable to discipline or be disciplined).

NCO disciplinary counseling can be intentionally harsh, although the wall-to-wall school of thought is currently formally frowned upon by The Powers That Be.

A good commissioned officer will never raise his voice, knowing that the most painful professional counseling for an NCO to receive is delivered with a calm demeanor that indicates the officer is, if anything, supremely disappointed in the NCO's performance even after calm consideration.

At least, that's my take on it, having been on both sides of both styles.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Dec 7 at 2014 3:34 PM

2014-12-07T15:34:32-05:00

SGT Private RallyPoint Member I know this question is old and has gotten a lot of answers already, but Id like to pose you a counter-question that may reveal your answer was already formed. When you saw the situation, did your respect for the people involved increase or decrease? How could each have handled it to best inspire your respect for and confidence in them?

Response by SGT Steve Oakes made Jan 4 at 2015 1:52 PM

2015-01-04T13:52:33-05:00

IMHO it is not a question of if a Commissioned Officer can, or should smoke anyone. Its is more that they should not have to. As NCOs it is our job to train the troops. That includes correcting improper/inappropriate behavior. To quote the NCO Creed. " Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties. They will not have to accomplish mine."

Response by John Russell made Jan 4 at 2015 2:08 PM

2015-01-04T14:08:11-05:00

As a younger PFC, I did see an officer smoke an NCO in formation as the whole company looked on. I remember the feeling of discrediting both of them. It makes both look bad. Regardless of whether the NCO screwed up or not the officer should have said 'I'll deal with you after this' and just corrected him behind doors. Both are A-dults with families Im sure. Help the NCO help keep his troops in line by not having this used against him.

Response by CW3 Craig Linghor made Mar 2 at 2015 10:40 PM

2015-03-02T22:40:50-05:00

Never experienced that but did witness a crusty old 1SG smoke some cherry LT's who where rough housing in the barracks.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Mar 2 at 2015 11:11 PM

2015-03-02T23:11:27-05:00

An officer providing physical reinforcement is both except able and useful if done correctly.

My 1st company commander was a stud... Actually still is.. It was understood it was going to be long run day or someother physically demanding event.
It was a form of physical reinforcement for being a knuckle head

Response by SGT Allen D'Aoust made Mar 5 at 2015 9:25 AM

2015-03-05T09:25:19-05:00

Unfortunately in today’s Army many NCO’s do not have the balls to stand up to the Officers. It is up to the NCO’s to step in and inform the Officer that “smoking” a soldier is NCO’s business. Unfortunately there are many Officers who wish that they were NCO’s and think that it’s their job to institute exercise for punishment.
A good Officer will either dictate to an NCO that he wants a soldier punished “smoked” or address the NCO of what happened and leave it up to the NCO to decide what should be done. Either case, it is NOT the job of an Officer to punish the soldier, that is NCO’s Business.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2015 1:33 PM

2015-03-05T13:33:33-05:00

You never want to take the legs out from a letter... unless... well I will post that story later

Response by COL Charles Williams made Apr 17 at 2015 12:12 AM

2015-04-17T00:12:00-04:00

I would always defer to a Senior NCO, to deal with another NCO who needed tightening up. But, in an emergency (situation dependent), I would not hesitate to correct an NCO, if your are talking about corrections. I would always strive to do it privately too, so that is not likely "smoking." At the same time, I trust that an NCO would also correct me when necessary.

I have heard NCO business many times, but remember who is ultimately responsible at every level of the Army. I heard it when I was PL, as a Company Commander, and the list goes on.... I always told my NCOs if they wanted me to stay out of NCO business, then stay on top of your business. Luckily, in my branch, 99.9% of the time, NCOs were on it 24/7.

That said, I don't think any of my dealings with NCOs, would be considered "smoking" in NCO terms.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2015 12:12 AM

2015-04-17T00:12:05-04:00

Smoking is no longer allowed in the Army. It's considered to be hazing.

Response by A1C Charles D Wilson made Apr 17 at 2015 1:03 AM

2015-04-17T01:03:06-04:00

I was with my stepmother Sgt Wilson USAF Res and I A1C Wilson USAF both had just left chow and was walking out the door when a Capt addressed her about her cover that she was just putting on. All in all is was funny and all 3 of us got a chuckle out of it and made me feel proud that even my mom was proper with the acknowledgement. She had just reenlisted into the USAF Res. at that time.

Response by SSG Lloyd Becker BSBA-HCM, MBA made Apr 20 at 2015 12:15 AM

2015-04-20T00:15:39-04:00

Here is what I have seen about 30 years ago. The lower enlisted refused to take orders from NCOs because officers took away that authority. The lower enlisted flagrantly refused because they were told to take orders from the officers only.

The basic problem with this is that, in anyone company, there is only 3 officers. I carried 2 MOSs and I find that it is difficult the FDC officer doing the work of 6 Section Chiefs. In the chemical companies, Decon and Smoke and Flame, it is again, difficult to control 3 platoons when they are spread apart.

Having 3 officers directly managing 6 gun sections, or 3 chemical platoons turn into immediate failures; not only for the officers, but for the company or batteries. Having structures of this nature, has no chain of command, because the command refused to abide by the chain. When it goes wrong, as it will, the NCOs get blamed.

When new officers get assigned to their unit, the 1SG and SFC need to yank that new officers' tail in a knot behind closed doors and inform them in no uncertain terms who runs the company and that they will be on a learning curve.

Officers can manage all they want. They just need to stay out of the NCOs way, because we run the Army.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2016 10:04 AM

2016-02-19T10:04:50-05:00

I've never been dropped by an officer, nor have I ever witnessed it. I have seen it for fun and motivational purposes during mass formations. If a LT came up to me as a SSG and tried to smoke me I think it would cause some problems. I would be professional of course but I wouldn't get down and start doing push ups. Two leaders should be able to go off to the side and discuss the issue at hand.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2016 10:09 AM

2016-02-19T10:09:00-05:00

I knew a Maintenance Chief who made his motor sergeant E7 drop for being late to a meeting

Response by Maj John Bell made Mar 19 at 2016 3:50 AM

2016-03-19T03:50:47-04:00

As a spanking new 2ndLt, through an administrative error. I had to put up with a Marine that earned himself a Bad Conduct Discharge in my platoon area. At a Barracks inspection he had an earing in his ear. I told him to remove it. He told me if I wanted it out, I was going to have to remove it myself. He was considerably larger than me, and probably would have won the fight. His words were a direct challenge to fight and calculated to damage my position with the platoon no matter what I did. I advanced, tore the ring from his ear lobe, and dropped back in to a fighting stance. Before he could recover, five NCO's brushed by me and restrained him.

During the investigation by the BnXO, to a man, my platoon said the private attacked me. I was honest with the XO. His decision was to accept the platoon's version of the story because he didn't want to charge them with false official statements. He said officially I did bad, but unofficially he was glad I did it.

The NCO's told me they did it because they didn't want him around any longer if he was to testify at my court martial. Privately my PltSgt said they were glad to have a PltLdr that wasn't afraid to mix it up.

Here's the truth as I see it. I reacted out of anger and pride. Leaders do not allow emotions to color their decisions, particularly when they administer discipline. I was tested and failed. Fortunately I learned from it.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Mar 25 at 2016 3:44 PM

2016-03-25T15:44:55-04:00

An Officer do not "Smoke and NCO in public" but must correct illegal actions, behavior or anything that brings discredit, or harm to the soldiers or teams. Corporal punishment is illegal, so don't go there, 20 push ups or two miles runs are not corporal punishment.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2016 10:12 AM

2016-03-27T10:12:19-04:00

It's appalling to me, to smoke anyone and particularly NCOs, because lower enlisted see this and it erodes respect for NCOs. If higher ranking officers did that to junior officers, this would resolve itself. I just wonder, what Junior's take on this would be? SGT Private RallyPoint Member

Response by SPC Brandon Hamilton made Mar 29 at 2016 4:39 PM

2016-03-29T16:39:32-04:00

1SG's can smoke their Companies and PL's if they screw up.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2016 8:02 PM

2016-04-01T20:02:55-04:00

Yes it is an NCO's job. Since I became an officer I don't even raise my voice to anyone.

Response by Sgt Donald Chalfy made Aug 26 at 2016 9:01 PM

2016-08-26T21:01:22-04:00

Since I am a Marine, I will guess that "smoking" a Soldier includes some form of punishment such as "extended, or incentive PT," having an officer derogatorily yell, chew ass, or demean an NCO or SNCO front of their troops or any derivation of that. If this is the case, Article 15 of the UCMJ addresses how officers can punish enlisted personnel and is very specific in how and what can be imposed as punishment. the other document is the Courts Martial Manual. I researching this question, I have not seen anything allowing and officer to "smoke" an enlisted person or NCO in public. I learned that, outside of basic training, or jump school, officers are the only military members that can impose incentive PT or otherwise punish enlisted personnel, but I cannot find the supporting evidence at this time.
In practice, I believe it is a very poor decision on the part of an officer to berate NCOs publicly. It undermines the unified chain of command, lowers morale over all and in my opinion, borders on Article 133 - Conduct Unbecoming an Officer and Gentleman. My experience has been that the majority of officers praised in public, punished in private, or delegated to a senior NCO to admonish the offender, who would also take the offender aside.

Response by SSG Jake Ragan made Aug 26 at 2016 10:50 PM

2016-08-26T22:50:57-04:00

Well first off a NCO cannot punish a soldier, he or she can only recommend a punishment to the commander. But however a good smoking or corrective training well that is 100% NCO business, the commander nor any officer should not be involved with any situation that requires corrective training. The job of an officer should be planning and property with the platoon Sgt or 1sg as an advisor to them, while the other NCOs within the chain of command leading and mentoring that said soldier. When an officer decides to get into NCO business it just confuses and causes chaos within the company or the platoon. I mean it's cool if you want to raise moral and joke around every once in a while to release tension and have fun but there is a fine line that shouldn't be crossed, most officers now days used to be enlisted before and forget that they are not NCOs anymore but once they realize what they are doing normally would get an apology and they back off because they know. But then you have the officers from West Point or rotc that really haven't been in that position before and like to puff their chests out to show they have bigger balls or what not and cross that line and then wonder why they are hated. It's just best of you let the soldiers be handled by their NCOs like it should be and let the officers do their planning and worry about their property, if we need them to assist in anything they will be notified but with that being said they will be notified as a last resort. If an officer has a complaint about a soldier he should notify his NCO just like if a lower enlisted had a problem he or she goes they the chain of command it's pretty much the same thing just reverse " shit runs down hill" if an officer or NCO have issues with another then they need to both be professional and pull to the side preferably out of sight or behind closed doors from lower enlisted and talk the shit out. If that doesn't work then that's when the paperwork and bad ncoer a come to play

Response by SPC Brandon Hamilton made Sep 10 at 2016 4:29 PM

2016-09-10T16:29:05-04:00

NCO's should be able to "Smoke" Officers if they have the years over those Officers. (i.e. A 1SG has a Drug Problem in his Company, he should be able to "Smoke" the Platoons and their Platoon-Leaders to instill Discipline back in that Company).

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made Nov 8 at 2016 5:41 AM

2016-11-08T05:41:07-05:00

If an officer is stepping up in this manner, my assumption is that there are some NCO's somewhere not fulfilling their obligation per the NCO creed, to wit, "Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties; they will not have to accomplish mine." If the NCO's were doing this, then this argument, I believe, would probably be mute. copied from CSM Poll. Every real problem in a unit boils down to E-6, E-7, or E-8 not doing his or her JOB. If they are doing their JOB everyone else below them will be and the officers will have maximum time to do theirs.

Response by SMSgt Steve Neal made Nov 8 at 2016 8:35 AM

2016-11-08T08:35:27-05:00

Can't condone "corporal" (physical) punishment any more... Those days are gone... The military may never get over that loss, but there are other ways to instill discipline... An officer's handling of otherwise "enlisted discipline" issues MUST be the exception rather than the rule. Officers who reserve themselves and deny the immediate urge to over-react gain unit-wide respect. This respect will be tossed out the window the very first time rank-power is abused. Prior-enlisted officers have a particularly HARD time letting this habit go, but they must!

Response by SSG Arron Daniels made Nov 8 at 2016 9:18 AM

2016-11-08T09:18:22-05:00

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member has it right. Although it's a joke, someone who wasn't clued in may perceive that as a real thing, but still.

Response by Sgt Bobby Armentrout made Nov 8 at 2016 9:37 AM

2016-11-08T09:37:24-05:00

When I was a Sergeant in the Reserves, our unit (A- Co, 4th AAVs) was at Dam Neck for something. I don't recall why, but the entire company was at the theater and our Company CO (a Major) had one of the platoon commanders (a Captain) and his platoon sergeant (a Gunny) on the stage and had them do some pushups for something. I don't think it was anything egregious, but to be honest, it didn't do much in the way of inspiring me. I have heard the French expression " pour encouragement les autres" (to encourage the others) and no doubt it had to do with this.

I've never been a big fan of public humiliation, although I have been guilty of it in the heat of the moment. Normally, most people aren't mature enough to handle it and get the intended lesson, so you end up doing more harm than good. As a practical view, most people with a little time in understand that the commander has a very limited time that they can spend beating on you, so things like this have a very limited effect. All that said, putting things on paper for minor offenses can have disastrous unintended effects later in the person's career. So maybe he had the right idea to start with, even if it doesn't seem like it.

Response by SFC David Pope, MBA made Nov 8 at 2016 10:10 AM

2016-11-08T10:10:33-05:00

As a senior NCO in a General Command I was never smoked. I was usually pulled to the brass carpet, but never smoked. I was blamed for getting the majors and LTC's in trouble while being deployed! The general said it wasn't my fault, but he was blaming me, because I was the senior NCO. He was the same general that put me in for First Sergeant. Due to medical I had to retire before pining it on. E-6 and below were handle by their chain of command. In our unit it could be a E-7 or an O-6.

Response by PO1 Steven Ewing made Nov 8 at 2016 12:37 PM

2016-11-08T12:37:12-05:00

I watched and heard a CPO chew out a LtCdr (and the LtCdr was an LDO/former CPO himself) in front of God and everyone and the LtCdr did not react other than to caution the Chief to stop (though in private I'm betting the Chief regretted his actions, it's those kind of things that probably explain why he was lucky to retire as an E-7 after 30 years instead of as an E-8 or 9).

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2016 1:15 PM

2016-11-08T13:15:05-05:00

Dropping one for a few push ups is not what I would call smoking. Smoking is, in my definition, a full blown high intensity group of actual exercises done in rapid succession repeatedly (i.e. PT until you puke). For an officer of any grade to do that is uncalled for, especially in front of the troops.
As you stated though "Later realizing it was somewhat of a joke..." Sometimes things when viewed outside the window may not always be what they are in the store itself.
Had a CO once that when the 1SG was trying to lay a line of razzle dazzle BS upon him in front of the company and everybody knew it, told him to drop, but we all realized it was all in fun and that "top" was slinging the BS heavy and joined the 1SG and pushed with him. 10 push ups later we got up and giggled like a bunch of kids. No harm, no foul in our eyes. But to someone not familiar with the dynamics of our unit, it may have seemed different at the time.

Response by TSgt James Carson made Nov 8 at 2016 1:50 PM

2016-11-08T13:50:46-05:00

Officers greatly rely on NCO's for their carriers to do, well. Officers and NCO's must be a team to get things done and make the military work well.

Response by MSG O'Connor Pat made Nov 8 at 2016 7:05 PM

2016-11-08T19:05:43-05:00

There is an inherent authority bestowed upon commissioned officers by virtue of their rank and commission; any officer resorting to smoking an NCO would undermine that authority. The military is an institution built on many years of tradition and in order for it to work everyone needs to stay in their lane. The only time you would see an NCO smoke an officer would be in a school situation and the same should hold true for officers smoking NCOs. NCOs have been called the back bone of the Army, and the enlisted corps is where the rubber meets the road to carry out the commander's intent; NCOs need to use corporal punishment as a tool to instill immediate corrective action to their subordinates, allowing them to learn, improve deficiencies, and bond with their team without adversely affecting their careers.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2016 9:12 PM

2016-11-08T21:12:04-05:00

"NCOs bark, Officers bite." I leave the administration of corrective training to my NCOs. If I have to take action, it will probably go on paper-depending on the circumstances.

Response by LCpl Todd Houston made Nov 9 at 2016 6:32 AM

2016-11-09T06:32:58-05:00

I can think of 1 instance. In the blatent disregard for safety. For example, walking in front of a live firing line when no nco was immediately present or didnt see it. Then the officer also needs to correct the nco in private. Sometimes "smoking" some idiot in public can have an immediate and desired effect, even though it would normally be jumping down the chain. My opinion only folks.

Response by SPC Phil Norton made Nov 9 at 2016 10:44 AM

2016-11-09T10:44:53-05:00

Back in basic are DI was smoking us and the DI kicked a soldier in the face while in the front leaning rest position. A full bird walking by saw this, and chewed him out. He then came over and asked if the soldier wanted to press charges. The soldier said no sir I was slacking off. The colonel accepted his answer put us at ease. He then Talked to the DI in private the DI came back apologized to the private and us. Then continued with the grass drills. It was a different time then. Soldiers took responsibility for screwing up, and would rather take a kick in the face rather than ruin a man's career. By the way the soldier who was kicked went on to become a PA and a Major.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 9 at 2016 11:10 AM

2016-11-09T11:10:42-05:00

Good post -- I had my Co Commander (CPT) counsel me one time on a 4856 because I directly called the CG on a waiver processing matter during my NCO recruiting days, I was like what? I'm doing your job since you dont want to expidite processing and I had a committed recruit, anyway he counseled me and my 1SG was laughing in the next office as I talked to him afterwards NCO-to-NCO... go figure. Smoking NO!

Response by SSG Jeffrey Monk made Nov 9 at 2016 4:10 PM

2016-11-09T16:10:45-05:00

Infantry officers have their own duties while in garrison and should rarely mix. So any issues should be taken into the First Sergeant and Platoon Sergeant's hands. In the field is where the Officer takes the lead and the Platoon Sergeant takes a step back. But to smoke an NCO period is pretty out there. It shows a lack of professionalism by both parties and can undermine the authority within the platoon. Personally I would take it as a personal affront to even have a punk wet nose Platoon Leader to even suggest it. To have anyone younger and less experience leading is hard enough if they don't take the advice of those who have paid our dues.

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Nov 10 at 2016 12:28 AM

2016-11-10T00:28:44-05:00

I THINK THAT OFFICERS SHOULD TAKE CARE OF OFFICERS AND NCO'S TAKE CARE LOWER ENLISTED AND NCO BELOW HIM.

Response by CSM Andrew Perrault made Nov 10 at 2016 9:52 AM

2016-11-10T09:52:15-05:00

Should be behind closed doors and if it's a serious offense then make sure you document it.

Response by SP5 Michael Chambers made Dec 21 at 2016 10:57 AM

2016-12-21T10:57:53-05:00

Immediate action, Yes. In any situation involving the preservation of immediate safety, property, or illegal acts. The other 99 percent, No. Officers need to learn thier jobs and NCO's need to do thiers. I was taught as a young soldier that Officers determine what needs to be done. NCO's determine how. Troops execute orders. Smoking soldiers outside of a school environment has always been a poor choice as it does nothing to build teamwork and trust. As such it should always be among the last tools in the tool bag that a leader pulls out. The concept of smoking NCO's is effective I suppose, if your desired result is to undermine and utterly destroy confidence in the chain of command. Even a developing NCO must be presented within the command as someone the troops respect and look to for leadership. That cannot happen in an environment where NCO's are treated as troops or seen as screw ups. This kind of behavior directly develops a zero defect environment. This is failed leadership. In these types of units soldiers and leaders alike loose confidence in the commands ability. Worse, it kills morale. The chain continues to worsen with every such event directly impacting the units ability to accomplish missions.
To those who would disagree consider that we purposefully went from the draft and judge ordered service to an all volunteer service. Quite simply, morale matters. Leadership matters. And Officers and NCO's alike lead by example. In healthy units, that's a positive example.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2017 11:26 AM

2017-03-11T11:26:33-05:00

I had an asshole LtC one time walk up top me. Retreat had just played and a young soldier failed to pay attention; on an Air Force base. I was behind him and yelled at him. He stopped and recovered. Afterward I walked over and gave him hell. Adding that he represented his entire service to the Air Force community.

Then afterward as I walk into the BX, a LtC stops me and tells me, "Its a good thing you stopped that soldier, otherwise I was going to have a piece of your ass."
I could not help but wonder how low this man's life must be for him to be looking for opportunities to discipline others.

Oh, I also forgot to mention he wasn't wearing his cover from car to BX.

Response by Cpl Tom Surdi made Mar 11 at 2017 11:51 AM

2017-03-11T11:51:54-05:00

I've only ever seen an Officer intervene once, and that was when our Plt Sgt started grabbing a PFC and shaking him. But if I am being honest, all of us NCOs were about to intervene, not only to protect the young PFC but to also protect the Plt Sgt. Afterwards all the SNCO's and the Lt. took the Sgt into the office. Then all the NCO's got lectured about appropriate behavior.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Mar 11 at 2017 12:20 PM

2017-03-11T12:20:35-05:00

That's what they make Company Gunnys for.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Mar 11 at 2017 2:54 PM

2017-03-11T14:54:27-05:00

You can't just walk by something that's not right, otherwise that's the new standard...however

Response by PO3 Christopher Jonah Nelson made Mar 11 at 2017 3:40 PM

2017-03-11T15:40:56-05:00

Many people don't understand that the chain of command is necessary for all military interactions, and I mean all. That doesn't mean that the junior sailor should never be speaking to an officer, just not without speaking to his NCOs first to determine that it's an appropriate action - his chain of command referred him to that officer.

Similarly, an officer should never, without reason that has to do specifically with his own duties (NOT to include military discipline) be coming down the chain without first speaking to the supervisors of the junior sailor he's going to be speaking with unless the action demands immediate correction.

The chain of command is bi-directional, and it's set up that way in order to maintain good order and discipline. Violating the chain of command in the downward direction promotes the idea in junior sailors that they can violate the chain of command in the upward direction.

Response by CW4 Anthony Carbo made Mar 12 at 2017 9:37 AM

2017-03-12T09:37:12-04:00

I never ever got between and NCO and his troops, unless it was a safety concern. or troop welfare. But then I treaded very lightly.
But if I had to chew some ass it was done in private.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2021 8:32 AM

2021-03-19T08:32:46-04:00

I've seen my prior enlisted LT smoke junior enlisted. Haven't read any regulations against it. I feel like she gave up that right by becoming an officer. I feel like NCOs should be the one correcting the Joe's, but hey, I'm a Joe myself.