Do counseling statements help soldiers??

SPC Chad Kolod — Mon, 18 May 2015 17:51:53 -0400

I just received a comment from an SGT on RP, I won't name names but it kind of surprised me, that stated a counseling statement never helps a soldier. I had said that I thought a counseling statement always helps a soldier, and that maybe it's a lazy NCO who resorts to always PT'ing a soldier. There is a time and place for "dropping" a soldier but I think a well conducted and written counseling statement is always more beneficial. What does the community think? Not trying to start an argument, maybe I am the only pro counseling junior enlisted. Let me know!

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made May 18 at 2015 6:09 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Mon, 18 May 2015 18:09:04 -0400

There are HUGE degrees of "counselling," ranging from "#%^#^% stop that, you're going to hurt yourself" to "Article 15." It's a figurative rainbow of counselling. Occasionally, we use alternate training methods to compliment counselling when verbal and more formalized aren't appropriate.

Signing off on a checklist is a form of written counselling. It's a pass/fail. You can do that at the end of the day, after checking that daily tasks are all complete, with a "good job!" or "needs improvement."

Now, leader books, are a documentation used to create counselling statements. They're a great tool. They're also a great way to explain the other side of things. "We noticed X, Y, Z." - "Well, that's because of A, B, & C." Counselling is a dialog. If it isn't something has gone wrong.

The idea is point out areas that are in need of improvement (and those that are good +), and how they can be brought up to standard, when they can be brought up to standard, and how WE are going to work on them. I say WE, because the troop has obviously failed on their own, and needs help from peers or above. Therefore, if you are going to criticize, one must assist (aka counsel).

The common failing is to bitch without offering a solution. That's where things aren't beneficial.

Now, the other benefit is "People can't know what to improve, if they don't know what is wrong, or what you expect." Additionally, it's like Landnav, you constantly have to Azimuth Check yourself to make sure you are heading in the right direction. It's really easy to get off track.

Response by SPC Charles Brown made May 18 at 2015 6:15 PM

SPC Charles Brown — Mon, 18 May 2015 18:15:37 -0400

12 years of military service and the only counseling I ever got was when I got in my own way. I was told upon re-entering the Army in 1999 I could and should be given a job performance counseling at least once a month. I was never counseled on the performance of my duties by my immediate supervisor (who was IMO, next to useless in the performance of his duties) or anyone else in the units I worked in. Would they have helped? I will never know, but erring on the side of caution I would have to say that yes they would.

Counseling on job performance is a great way for a soldier to learn where he/she is deficient in job performance and then make the improvements needed to be considered for the next advancement in pay.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2015 6:19 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 18 May 2015 18:19:04 -0400

Yes counselings do help Soldiers IF
1. The Leader spends the time and effort writing a correct counseling.
2. The COA established is followed.
3. The Leader fulfills his obligation to the Soldier being counseled.

That's some of the things I have seen that have failed in a good/productive counseling

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made May 18 at 2015 6:20 PM

Capt Mark Strobl — Mon, 18 May 2015 18:20:18 -0400

PT, in lieu of counseling, is so "boot camp." The only time I ever saw fit to have someone crank out some extra push-ups came if they scored a low physical fitness test. One of the more challenging things young leaders must do is stand a subordinate, face-to-face, and tell 'em like it is. Whenever I reviewed a Marine's Pro/Con marks, I asked to see all of the supporting documentation (the write-ups --both good and bad). This guaranteed me that the leader, and the subordinate, were doing their jobs. If we don't take/make the time to provide guidance to the youngsters, how do we expect them to assume roles of greater scope & responsibility? Develop your subordinates --or become one yourself.

Response by PO2 Corey Ferretti made May 18 at 2015 6:22 PM

PO2 Corey Ferretti — Mon, 18 May 2015 18:22:10 -0400

There are different levels of counseling and it is up to the NCO to know if the SM needs to have a official counseling or if he/she would better from some off the books counseling. There are SM that need official counseling because they will never learn unless they face mast or Article 15.

Response by SGT David T. made May 18 at 2015 7:18 PM

SGT David T. — Mon, 18 May 2015 19:18:10 -0400

They can if the NCO uses them in such a way. The purpose isn't to simply write the Soldier up when they do wrong, but also to document exceptional performance. My Soldiers responded well to getting a positive 4856. The purpose is to document how the Soldier is doing, what needs to be improved and what they need to sustain. I really hated the NCOs who only used it for the monthly check the block that tells the Soldier nothing, and for negative things. Counseling should be a positive thing to make a better subordinate, if the NCO cares enough to do. Unfortunately, too many NCOs only care about themselves.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2015 7:19 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 18 May 2015 19:19:39 -0400

I think you've got two types of people out there...

There are the people who are terrified of having any kind negative paperwork in their records (that was me)...

And people who couldn't care less.

But...

I believe in counseling statements for a different reason... Documentation. Sometimes the only way a personnel action can take place is with a corresponding paper trail. So while counseling statements or letters of counsel (or reprimand) may not correct behavior, it will establish a paper trail to justify actions need to be taken on to the next step (NJP, involuntary separation, etc)

Response by BG David Fleming III made May 18 at 2015 9:10 PM

BG David Fleming III — Mon, 18 May 2015 21:10:29 -0400

A counseling statement documents negative performance and is the best safeguard to prevent a soldiers with bad performance from advancing regardless of how well he or she may be at test taking. Without documentation, he or she will mostly likely continue to advance through the ranks instead of being rehabilitated or discharged.

Response by SFC Stephen King made May 18 at 2015 9:36 PM

SFC Stephen King — Mon, 18 May 2015 21:36:36 -0400

Counseling is a two way conversation both positive and negative counseling can be effective. I for one prefer to talk with the Soldier and or write it down during or after. If you let the person your counseling have input the counseling is received in a more conducive manner.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2015 11:15 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 18 May 2015 23:15:41 -0400

Thought it's worth mentioning that leaders should also consider positive counseling statements for exemplary performance. These proved very useful for me in the past when leaders higher up in the rating chain asked me for justification for strong NCOER bullets and 1 blocks.

Response by SSG William Sutter made May 18 at 2015 11:31 PM

SSG William Sutter — Mon, 18 May 2015 23:31:14 -0400

If properly worded and conducted correctly- yes they help

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2015 8:17 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 May 2015 08:17:10 -0400

In my active duty and reserve time, I've only seen a 4856 used for negative events, never for positive. I'd say no.

Response by MAJ Ray McCulloch made May 19 at 2015 8:30 AM

MAJ Ray McCulloch — Tue, 19 May 2015 08:30:22 -0400

In my opinion, there is no excuse not to counsel Soldiers, but it needs to be accurate, fair, unbiased, and candid. You will never see a Soldier improve without candidness. I am reading a book right now by Jack Welch titled "Winning" that I recommend everyone read. In it he talks about candidness and a fair, honest, and accurate evaluation system. The problem the military has right now with counseling statements is that we only use them to document negative actions, when in fact, they can be used for positive actions. Used properly they can be a tremendous asset for job performance improvement. And when it is all said and done, don't we as leaders owe it to our subordinates to give them honest, accurate, factual, and candid feedback for improvement? After all, we are doin two things: training/educating the next leaders of the Army, and training/educating our replacements?

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made May 19 at 2015 11:18 AM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Tue, 19 May 2015 11:18:18 -0400

Looking at the pic with this question: why is the SFC counseling the LT?

Seriously. Always do the paperwork. It's the right thing for the Service if your subordinate should be considered for some type of discharge, NJP, Court. If he/she descrews themselves, then document the positive with equal care.

Response by CPL Staci Howell made May 19 at 2015 1:07 PM

CPL Staci Howell — Tue, 19 May 2015 13:07:17 -0400

Depends on the Soldier. Some learn through encouragement and others learn through punishment. I found counseling statements to be beneficial because I thrived on knowing what my strengths and weaknesses were. "Dropping" as you put it causes animosity and embarrassment. On the other hand some Soldiers need the embarrassment in order to get through their heads. That's why it's important for leaders to know their Soldiers.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2015 2:40 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 May 2015 14:40:56 -0400

When used as a professional development tool, they are very effective. The three types of developmental counseling are Event, Performance, Professional Growth. I gave my Soldiers a monthly counseling every month. It talked about what happened for the month, what they can sustain, and what they can improve on. On the back, I told them to write their long term and short term goals. We then developed a plan for them to achieve those goals. If you are that leader that always counsels when things go wrong, you are doing them and yourself a disservice. As NCOs, we take care of our Soldiers and ensure they continue to grow and shape them as a future leader.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made May 19 at 2015 9:19 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Tue, 19 May 2015 21:19:54 -0400

Sometimes I will have a Soldier who is awesome with a high PT score, attending college, taking Skillport classes, is the Soldier of the month, and he or show does well in everything. What can I do to help this Soldier out? Not much! Then there are the Soldiers who are lacking in a few subjects or many. This is where a performance counseling can help but the counselor is going to have to know his or her Soldier and know how to communicate verbally and on paper. Not every leader can do both. Some leaders can only do one of these. The monthly performance needs to state what the Soldier is good at so we can build him or her up. Then there needs to be a section telling the Soldier what they need to improve. In the "plan of action" section this is where I tell the Soldier what and how they should improve. The monthly performance is meant to help the Soldier. It is not a check the black paper. If it was check the block, why would I wasted my time over black ink and paper?

Response by SGT Jonathan Williams made May 19 at 2015 10:19 PM

SGT Jonathan Williams — Tue, 19 May 2015 22:19:42 -0400

For me... push-ups worked. That is because generally... I did not repeat things. Results may vary.

Also... we are of course excepting major items such as DUI, drugs, sex assault, et cetera. Need statements on paper to get criminals and habitual out. It is not about "helping the Soldier" all the time. At some point, you have to protect the rest of the team, and the organization in general.

90/10 rule. When you are spending 90 percent of your time on 10 percent of the formation... new angle of attack is required.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made May 25 at 2015 10:12 PM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Mon, 25 May 2015 22:12:36 -0400

If counseling is done right, which also includes the plan of action and follow-up, then it can definitely help Soldiers. Counseling isn't worth very much if it is only done as a check-the-box exercise where one or both sides is not committed to resolving the issue.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2015 11:15 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 May 2015 23:15:45 -0400

Counseling statements don't work if there is no follow up action taken. To simply "counsel" somebody and then never follow up to see if the recommended course of action for improvement has worked defeats the purpose.

Response by SSG Robert Blair made May 25 at 2015 11:37 PM

SSG Robert Blair — Mon, 25 May 2015 23:37:56 -0400

Counseling always works if the counselor follows through with their part.

Response by 1LT Rick Burwell made Feb 5 at 2018 9:05 AM

1LT Rick Burwell — Mon, 05 Feb 2018 09:05:21 -0500

I do not believe counseling statements work. They could if you could use them against a soldier on their NCOER. The problem is when writing NCOER’s they only want you to put down positive things.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2019 10:13 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Apr 2019 10:13:05 -0400

When I do a counseling statement I try to only put positive things in it. (Unless something big happened that has to go on paper) if minor things happened I like to stress how my soldier overcame these hurdles and pressed on with pride. If it is positive it goes on paper. If it is negative it is a face to face conversation (like adults) and they are given courses of action to get them back on track. We all have hiccups from time to time and there is no need to tarnish a soldiers file unnecessarily.

If it becomes a problem and you have to establish a pattern of behavior by all means do so, you know your soldiers better than I do.