Do I need to counsel a soldier before recommending a soldier for a bar to reenlistment?

2020-03-12T23:26:56-04:00

I wanted to ensure that the process is done correctly. What is the process

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Mar 12 at 2020 11:39 PM

2020-03-12T23:39:36-04:00

YES, Blast it- Any Good or bad action they should be counseled. They had to have done something wrong to recommend a bar- w/o a counseling statement or a trail on them- you have no to little proof why the Chain of C should follow your recommendation.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2020 12:19 AM

2020-03-13T00:19:51-04:00

You aren't prepared to make such a recommendation if you do not no the process, standards, and applicable regulations. I suggest you raise this issue with the first NCO in your NCOSC.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2020 12:45 AM

2020-03-13T00:45:28-04:00

There are three basic criteria for a bar.
1. Is the Soldier Untrainable: Failure to perform basic AWT, weapons qualification, APFT, tasks associated with the their MOS...are all examples of this. I can not imagine any commander acting upon this criteria without a paper trail. This means DA-3595s, DA 705's, and counseling forms that have tracked a series of inability to do expected MOS skills, including a plan to mitigate and improve those areas of weaknesses. (After all, that is the primary job of NCOs...especially the E5 level).

2. Is the Soldier Unsuitable: Does the Soldier have issues maintaining expected military bearing, especially off duty. This is a more generic criteria that focuses on attitude and motivation. If you have been counseled a lot, this may be what is being used to justify the recommendation.

I don't know what's been going on, but if I had a Soldier that started to rack up the counselings, I would have a step back and access the situation to find out why the performance has dropped. Outside influences? Family issues? I would have an informal heart-to-heart to try and suss things out, or recommend seeking help elsewhere. Perhaps seeing the Unit Ministry Team.

3. Is the Soldier unable to develop a family care plan. I don't think this applies for you.

Ultimately, the CO will be the one to initiate the bar. I recommend using open door policy (after going through FLL) to talk to the First Sergeant and CO. I am surprised that your S-NCO has not talked to you about these issues yet.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Mar 13 at 2020 1:08 AM

2020-03-13T01:08:37-04:00

For something like this there has to be a paper trail. You cannot just up and decided that soldier X is going to be recommended for a bar. Why are they being barred? What Army standard have they failed at? Have they never been shown the right way and given a chance to rehabilitate? You have to show that the solider failed, was counseled and given every opportunity to change, train and come up to even minimum standards and failed of their own fault and this must be shown in progressive paperwork.

In the end it is not your call. It is the commanders call. But you have to show that commander why he or she should take your suggestion.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2020 1:10 AM

2020-03-13T01:10:51-04:00

Ultimately, you do not recommend a bar, you provide a counseling packet to the commander and they ultimately make the decision.

Keep in mind, if you try to bar someone just because you don’t like them, or haven’t put in the time with them to improve them, then you aren’t ready to be a leader.

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Mar 13 at 2020 6:25 AM

2020-03-13T06:25:05-04:00

It’d be a right thing to do and cover your “6” while you’re at it..SPC.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Mar 13 at 2020 6:42 AM

2020-03-13T06:42:24-04:00

Short answer is yes. You need to pull a copy of Army Regulation (AR) 601-280 that sets down the rules for a Bar to Reenlistment. However, all will have to be documented for one of the reasons stated above. I would sit down with my immediate COC to discuss this action since it is considered to be punitive now.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2020 8:10 AM

2020-03-13T08:10:30-04:00

Never do anything adverse to someone's career without letting them know. Hit the books before you make a big mistake for both of you.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2020 8:44 AM

2020-03-13T08:44:31-04:00

You need to have a valid reason to recommend a bar. Like a series of counseling. You can't just walk up and say you want to bar them and have no supporting documents. Your bar recommendation will be read by the Brigade Commander if he chooses to appeal it. You need to show clearly how the Soldier is messed up. Don't waste your time barring them if they're flagged, they already can't reenlist.
Additionally, you'll need another counseling stating that you are recommending them for a bar, where to find the information, what the process and effects are, and most importantly - what they must do to overcome it. Your Career Counselor should have a copy of an example one for you

Response by SSG Brian G. made Mar 13 at 2020 12:15 PM

2020-03-13T12:15:21-04:00

The process is fairly simple.

1. Get with the soldiers CoC. IE SQL, PSGT, 1SGT. Explain what and why you are attempting this. I can almost guarantee you without at LEAST some of that signing off on it, that will not even see the Commanders desk as it has to pass through the Chain to reach the Commander.

2. Document. Read AR 601-280 thoroughly and then be sure of why you want do this. Start with an initial counseling that standards and expectations and the possible results for not meeting them. Be concise and thorough citing relevant regulations so that you are documented and the soldier can pull these to look at them him or herself. Then follow this with a monthly counseling referencing the initial counseling and noting whatever you are finding deficient and/or positive then give an action plan to correct these and a reasonable time frame to do so. If you give 8 weeks time then counsel the SM approximately every 2 weeks during this time. Following this period, counsel the SM again and note any improvement or lack thereof. Inform the SM that failure to improve could result in a bar to reenlistment. If you are dead set on barring this SM then follow this with an an actual counseling stating you are recommending they be barred from reenlisting.

At this point it is out of your hands. Your CoC and ultimately Commander either agree with you or they do not.

Response by SSG Keith Cashion made Mar 13 at 2020 12:18 PM

2020-03-13T12:18:12-04:00

If you haven't tried other avenues (additional training, UCMJ, etc.), you haven't done your job.

Find the root cause, and try to fix it. To many leaders want to get rid of the Soldier instead of mentoring.
I think you are missing something.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2020 2:21 PM

2020-03-13T14:21:48-04:00

Umm biggest issue I see is that you're a SPC. Your counselings and recommendations don't really have any power, as a SPC has no authority or leadership responsibility. If you are counseling a Soldier it is for your training only and that Soldier should still be receiving counselings from a Non-Commissioned Officer.
In general, always have a paper trail, you can't just recommend adverse action without the paper trail to prove it. If it isn't written down...it didn't happen.

Response by SSG Lonny Self made Mar 13 at 2020 2:30 PM

2020-03-13T14:30:50-04:00

yep at least three times

Response by SSG Dale London made Mar 13 at 2020 9:22 PM

2020-03-13T21:22:18-04:00

If you have been counselling this soldier throughout, disregard the following. But the wording of your question suggests that you probably have not.
So, okay. Here's the deal: as a Specialist you have no say in flagging or barring actions. The CO initiates them, perhaps with the input of the 1SG and PSG. They may in turn come to you for your input but what they will be looking for are the counseling forms you have documenting the problem, the plans you have agreed with the soldier for correcting it, and the evidence that remediation has failed.
Without knowing any of the particulars of this situation, on it's face it looks like you have screwed the pooch. Simply put, you are ultimately responsible for the performance of the men you lead. If you have somebody who's not measuring up for some reason, to a level that you think the army's better off without him, and you have not ALREADY counselled him, you have failed that soldier and you have failed your unit.
Maybe he's a sad-sack. But you have a responsibility to help him succeed. Counseling is a very important tool in that -- perhaps even the most important tool. You need to be on the ball and catch problems when they are only baby problems. If you have soldier weak in an area or who is not coming up to scratch, it is your job to counsel him on his shortcomings and work out a plan for him to remediate the problem, not to throw him under the bus.
If it's something you can't help him with or if it is beyond your scope to correct, pass him up the chain and let the PSG or 1SG deal with it.
If he's really a lost cause, shake it off and learn from this. Be a better leader in the future. Make sure your soldiers know what the standards are, and what constitutes both success and failure. Look for reasons to reward more than to correct but correct them immediately when you see something wrong.
Last but not least, you don't have to like your soldiers but you do have to care about them. That's what being a leader is.

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2020-03-14T00:10:53-04:00

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Response by LTC Betty Holm made Mar 14 at 2020 1:47 AM

2020-03-14T01:47:19-04:00

Always do the paperwork. Remember you have to give them an opportunity to correct their actions. In a written counseling statement you set the standard and if they don't meet that standard then you have the grounds to move forward with the Bar to reenlistment. This is time consuming and does not happen overnight.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2020 11:02 PM

2020-03-14T23:02:51-04:00

You need counselings in order to put the counseling packet together. No counseling is like going to court with none of the evidence