Do morals and values still matter?

2015-03-09T03:38:57-04:00

The recent case of Gen. Petraeus prompted me to think about this a little.

We frequently hear cases of important men who get taken down with sex scandals, financial scandals, ethics violations, etc. Yet, quite often, these people skate and get re-elected, re-appointed or whatever.

Why does society tolerate this, and what is it about leadership that makes men lose their way? (I specifically call out men, because the vast majority of such cases involve men in leadership.)

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 3:43 AM

2015-03-09T03:43:14-04:00

I think to some, they matter. However, most people will put greed and personal gain before what is "right."

[EDIT]

To elaborate, those people we are discussing here powerful and influential enough to have it swept under the rug. And those who have the power to make/do something about it aren't about to sell out a friend.

If the actions taken by GEN Petraeus where done by SPC Snuffy, he would have already been "nailed to the wall." Any celebrity that gets a DUI while doing intravenous drugs while speeding with a prostitute in the passenger seat will serve a FRACTION of what you or I would face. Is it right? No. Why do we allow it to happen? Because "One voice against many will not change anything." Intimidation is a powerful tool.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 3:45 AM

2015-03-09T03:45:37-04:00

It doesn't matter until it matters.

If you only care when it matters then it is too late.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 3:47 AM

2015-03-09T03:47:18-04:00

I think they do but as a whole peoples views on this subjects are changing all together.

It is more loosely defined.

The only reason any of these individuals get publicized or caught is because they upset someone of great power.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 4:05 AM

2015-03-09T04:05:02-04:00

To answer your question about leadership and losing your way. I believe men think they become so powerful that they are untouchable, like a God complex. If the leader has poor values or morals it will be worse at every level as they rise through the ranks. I believe there are more good leaders than bad, we just hear more about the bad ones.

On Petraeus, I find it hard to believe that he has poor morals or values. I think it was more poor judgment on his part and if he talked about classified information definitely a poor decision. He was my battalion commander back in the day, one of the best field grade officers I ever had the privilege to work for.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 6:45 AM

2015-03-09T06:45:00-04:00

Yes, morals and values matter. They're just as important as they always were.

I blame mass media for making it seem as though today's leaders have lower morals than leaders of decades past. If the internet, email, camera phones, and closed circuit television cameras had been prevalent in the 60s, maybe we would've captured more scandals perpetrated by people like President Kennedy and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Great leaders are just as human as the common man, and are bound to make the same mistakes.

Response by SSG Christopher Parrish made Mar 9 at 2015 9:09 AM

2015-03-09T09:09:09-04:00

"...will at all times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the military service, and my country regardless of the situation in which I find myself."

Morals and values are extremely important and still matter. I can't tell you how many times I have been told I stand out from my peers in the civilian world because of my values and Christian beliefs. I know it isn't me, but Christ in me, but the fact that it is noticeable means that others are looking and they want it.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 9:20 AM

2015-03-09T09:20:53-04:00

Moral and ethical issues matter because they speak to CHARACTER.
It is my unshakable belief that if you would lie and cheet on your spouse, you would have little compunction to do so to your peers, subordinates or leaders. Such men (and women) are devoid of honor and integrity, and have no business leading my Soldiers...or me.

I am a leader who wants to look into the eyes of a Soldiers mother or spouse or children and earn their respect because they can judge me worthy to lead their loved one in a job that might just require the ultimate sacrifice.
I want them to know that I would happily take a bullet meant for any of my Soldiers, rather than have to face those Family members and explain why it was that I could be standing there, and their Soldier could not.

People who look the other way when something wrong happens, who lie to look like something they are not, who work for their own profit or aggrandizement or gratification or promotion are working towards goals that do not further my unit, and often damages it.

I think society "tolerates" these behaviors not because they have become "OK", but rather because we have become a society that fears shame. That if we face down and call out bad behavior, that we fear our own sins coming to light and facing our own consequences. I think that by minimizing that shame, we only make it that much easier to choose to do the wrong thing when faced with that dilemma.

I will never call myself perfect, and I have not always done the right thing, but I strive to live my values and morals every day, and find forgivness and redeption on the days I fall short.

Response by SFC Michael Jackson, MBA made Mar 9 at 2015 9:35 AM

2015-03-09T09:35:20-04:00

There's a basic set of values that every service member should possess and live by such as integrity and honor.
As for morals, it's subjective, and everyone views morals differently. We face great resistance trying to impose our morals on others, and it creates division in the ranks
We should instill values in our service members, and stand clear of taking the moral highground

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Mar 9 at 2015 9:37 AM

2015-03-09T09:37:48-04:00

They do matter. All of us are imperfect and will make mistakes. The issue is always how do you adjust or correct for a mistake. To use the General Patraeus scenario, he knew he crossed a line when he had an affair. He is a married man. He could have stopped at one incident but chose not to. She was also in his command structure I believe and was an Army (NG) officer to boot. He chose to continue down the path for personal pleasure and gain and risked it all.

If he also transferred confidential information (which it appears he did) then he crossed another line for personal pleasure and gain and likely did so more than once.

The General failed the test. He might have had a stellar career but when the chips were down and he was in the power seat he abused his authority and power and compromised classified information.

I have a theory about this sort of stuff and it is that it is highly unlikely that he was caught on his first and only lapse of judgment. There are likely other skeletons in that closet unfortunately.

Had this been an NCO or junior officer my guess is the punishment would have been more severe and immediate. He was cut a break for his years of service which should be considered.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Mar 9 at 2015 9:45 AM

2015-03-09T09:45:02-04:00

Morals and values always matter. The liberal, immoral, permissive society we now live in is destroying our country. We need sanity back in our government and people need to be held accountable for their immoral, criminal and anti-American acts.

As the military is a microcosm of society in general, the moral decay that has permeated our society has found it way into the military ranks. Leaders with moral courage and tradition values need to take a stand and get us back on the right track.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Mar 9 at 2015 11:03 AM

2015-03-09T11:03:22-04:00

Morals still matter, absolutely. Keep in mind that before modern technology, the things that are happening now, happened 20, 40, 100 years ago.... was not as public knowledge as people as a whole were not under the social microscope. I think that people in high levels of power have a few things going on that increases the changes of these "scandals":

1. Most people in these high level positions are people that are driven. Look at wild animals...the Herd Bull is herd bull because of who/what he is. Driven to pass along his genetic code. 2. People in power loose sight of their moral compass just due to the pressures of their position, long hours, and a "chance encounter in moment of weakness". 3. Some people that are at the top are just bad people that have worn a veneer of civility to advance...now that they are at the top they feel that they can not be touched and the veneer comes off. 4. Remember, people that commit crimes do not think that the "law" is smart enough to catch them.... eventually, they come tumbling down!

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 11:05 AM

2015-03-09T11:05:51-04:00

To listen to a lot of the millennials and a lot of the left, they will ask you to define morals; who's morals.

Response by SrA Matthew Knight made Mar 9 at 2015 11:24 AM

2015-03-09T11:24:45-04:00

Of course they matter, problem is everyone is human. We all make mistakes, some unfortunately make bigger ones than others.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Mar 9 at 2015 12:39 PM

2015-03-09T12:39:57-04:00

About as much as air and sunshine!!

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Mar 9 at 2015 12:43 PM

2015-03-09T12:43:56-04:00

Muhammad Ali (world champion boxer for those who aren't of a certain age) once said "It's the repetition of affirmations that leads to belief. And once that belief becomes a deep conviction, things begin to happen." Thus, I am going to repeat myself on this topic until something begins to happen...

We must learn to celebrate the act of heroism rather than the hero. Why? Ultimately, all heroes fail.

All people fail from time to time. We're only human.

I've never failed as Petraeus failed, however I've never achieved anything as heroic as Petraeus has, and I've often wondered if I had, would I have then been tested and failed as he did.

So many Presidents have. As noted, Eisenhower. Also, there's FDR, John Kennedy, Bill Clinton, and, now it's rumored, Barrack Obama, have all succumbed to the carnal temptations thrown at powerful men. Some haven't. I'm not certain, but I don't believe that Truman, Ford, Carter, Reagan, or either Bush did. Yes, we've been in the military and are quite familiar with the concept: Some will, some won't.

Still, values count. I see no evidence that any of these men failed to have values. Although we may argue with their values, we can respect those who lived up to them and regret those who failed.

It's tempting to excuse our own failures when our leaders fail. Indeed, many use their failure to live up to their values as an excuse, a trigger, to abandon their own when the opportunity presents itself. However, if we stop celebrating our heroes, maybe we can stop using their failures as our own excuses.

Response by SPC David S. made Mar 9 at 2015 2:25 PM

2015-03-09T14:25:00-04:00

I think there are a number of reasons for this:

1 ) Position is above the enforcer (political suicide to go after such individuals)
2 ) Ego of Alpha types - either they think that they are smarter and won't get caught or rules don't apply to them.
3 ) Society has become accustomed to such leaders - look at peoples' views of politicians as the vast majority think politicians are scum bags.
4 ) Also I think a big part is when leaders self assess they they are very disingenuous to themselves - if they are going to lie to others they will lie to themselves.

From the view point of psychology there are two sides of morality. One side being the morals are innate the other it is that they are learned. Perhaps it is a little of both.

Not to pick on a political party an example I can think of is Bill Clinton's record

- The only president ever impeached on grounds of personal malfeasance
- Most number of convictions and guilty pleas by friends and associates*
- Most number of cabinet officials to come under criminal investigation
- Most number of witnesses to flee country or refuse to testify
- Most number of witnesses to die suddenly
- First president sued for sexual harassment.
- Second president accused of rape**
- First first lady to come under criminal investigation
- Largest criminal plea agreement in an illegal campaign contribution case
- First president to establish a legal defense fund.
- First president to be held in contempt of court
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions from abroad
- First president disbarred from the US Supreme Court and a state court

Most disturbing facts:

- Number of persons in the Clinton machine who are alleged to have committed suicide: 9
- Number known to have been murdered: 12

This is who we decided to elect as our President. I doubt I would let an individual with such a resume watch my kid yet he was the leader of our country. He not only lacked a moral standing his influence was the cause of corruption in others.

Here is a good read on the subject from a Norwegian Journal of Military Ethics. (Its in English)

http://www.pacem.no/2010/2/2lederutvelgelse/3olsen/

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 3:17 PM

2015-03-09T15:17:06-04:00

Power corrupts, if someone with weak morals and values is placed in a position of power... they stand little chance of steering a straight course.

Response by MSgt Robert Pellam made Mar 9 at 2015 6:09 PM

2015-03-09T18:09:08-04:00

I believe that morals and values do mater, but... In this day and age we see countless talking heads speak volumes on correct moral code, ethics in use or excellent values. Even on here I have seen many speak up about morality with the air of superiority of themselves.

But the problem is, and it was well stated above, we are human. We are all tested differently. Our Morals, are values are all different. The thing is loneliness, loss, fear, hate, anger, are all the same. (Insert Star Wars reference in here for a smile). I have seen strong men, felled by loss, brilliant women at a loss for words over fear. Some times we take solace in the arms of others because the ones we want are not there. Love or Lust, which ever you like, makes men and women do some amazingly weird things!

Now our Leaders, elected leaders and so on. I don't see any big moral offense except that of money. OHHHH that money, some of these elected officials should have to wear corporate patches like NASCAR racers. Instead of the state they are from, maybe the Businesses they represent? Sad thing is, this is legal. The people who make the laws, made a law that says they are allowed to be given money from private businesses to make laws for those corporations. And the supreme court said "Sure!"

This is what our children see. Media slanting information to push their agenda, politicians getting away with stuff that mobsters in Chicago in the 1920's would be proud of. It is this loss in morals and values that is what bugs me most.

My solution.. well simple. Vote. engage with our representatives. Tell them "we don't want this" make laws against giving money to politicians. They should serve the people, not their wallets.

Rant over.. :) May the Force be with you.

Response by LTC David S. Chang, ChFC®, CLU® made Mar 9 at 2015 6:31 PM

2015-03-09T18:31:02-04:00

Values are the right and left limits to living life and conducting business. Without them, there is no trust, no responsibility, and our entire system would collapse.

We do things based on values of people and their company. We would never hire a babysitter for our kids if they had no values and believed anything goes, including giving our kids drugs, etc.

Values, ethics, morals are extremely important, and help us check our anarchist or dictatorial tendencies.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 6:34 PM

2015-03-09T18:34:28-04:00

I personally think that moral values do matter, LCDR Jaron Matlow; however, I also think that our society is trending towards anything goes - absolutely anything - so in that regard no, they do not matter to many (most?) people. I remember being in a graduate German course back in 1988, and I mentioned that something was not "right." My professor "pounced" on that and asked me how I could say that something was right or wrong. Who was I to make that determination? And that was almost 30 years ago. Things have gone downhill from there, and I think we're on a downward spiral.

Response by SFC Collin McMillion made Mar 9 at 2015 7:44 PM

2015-03-09T19:44:44-04:00

I have no intention of justifying or arguing any of these points, but I do believe sex and sexual attraction has been around a lot longer than rules and regulations.

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Mar 9 at 2015 9:21 PM

2015-03-09T21:21:37-04:00

LCDR Jaron Matlow, morals and values always matter.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 9 at 2015 10:05 PM

2015-03-09T22:05:34-04:00

Yes they do. If we don't have morals and values, and live them, then what good are we as leaders? In society, perhaps, but not in the military. The recent reports on lying among the officer Corps is telling. Only we can fix that. Sex, Power, and Money... can lead to "Power Corrupts" and if you don't have a rock solid moral compass, you can easily succumb.

Response by SSG Eddye Royal made Mar 9 at 2015 10:25 PM

2015-03-09T22:25:57-04:00

Case in point: during to Gulf War: I went to see the unit that I had just PCS from, and my 1LT said why was the guy upset, I said wait here --- he's a 1LT(P) but he was permoted to CPT before I left, and I need you stay in the Vechicle I go speak to the Bat LTC. a great friend a mine, once I see what he tell me. Comes to find out he went on ahead a Married the Hoorker, that the whole battery had been with and started a fight with other NCOsx and other OFFICERs, that got PUT OUT of service or PCS to S. K. and wanted me to be at his hearing outnin the desert. I explained my Command was nnot going to be pleased with that at all.

I did speak with the LTC, he said he could keep sleeping with her but DONT Marry her IT would STOP!! his CAREER. He did not believe him (LTC). He lost everything. I went back to him with the LTC's driver and other LTs he heard what was told, and a grown man just sob, as I drove off back to my new UNIT.

Response by PO3 John Jeter made Mar 10 at 2015 1:04 AM

2015-03-10T01:04:06-04:00

I refuse to entrust my fate or that of those I love to someone who has no morals or ethical values.

Response by COL Ted Mc made Mar 10 at 2015 1:34 AM

2015-03-10T01:34:09-04:00

Unfortunately they don't appear to matter much to most people most of the time - unless they are trying to force their "morals and values" down someone else's throat.

What REALLY offends me is not so much that people who shouldn't have one have a price BUT that their price is so damn cheap.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2015 7:18 AM

2015-03-10T07:18:15-04:00

Our society embarked on a systematic devaluation of values in society that has been progressing for decades now. But in spite of the attempts to remove values and morals from public in society, they still carry the same value that they always have in shaping the beliefs and actions of every human. They just don't get much talking about in society at large aside from the milkwater value of "tolerance."

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2015 6:00 PM

2015-03-10T18:00:34-04:00

I think if we look at elected officials that have made it to a leadership role, both men and women have lost their way. Those promises they make that keep getting themselves elected no longer matter.

I honestly believe there is some secret club where they all protect one another once they get to a certain level.

Response by SSG Scott Weaver made Mar 10 at 2015 6:10 PM

2015-03-10T18:10:35-04:00

Do morals and values still matter? To good leaders and followers yes. I think some leaders become so insulated from being questioned about their decisions they lose touch. They lose their way and ability to be a good leader.

Personally I think Gen. Petraeus was honey potted but that is something totally different.

Also, I think we just have more and easier access to the personal dealings of our leaders then ever before. You don't think Patton bagged a few while in Europe? Sure he did...but the difference is the technology we have todat compared to then. Not to mention men didn't gossip like they do now.

Response by Brig Gen Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2015 9:06 PM

2015-03-10T21:06:04-04:00

I think values and morals absolutely matter!! We as a profession are getting a bad reputation because the bad apples are being highlighted, and I don't think that is necessarily wrong, but I do think that painting all service members with this brush is wrong.

As was described to me in Senior Leader Orientation Course (aka Charm School), we as a profession are in a fish bowl and the population is looking at us. They hold us to a higher standard than the general public and we should hold ourselves to that same higher profile. The higher rank we obtain, both enlisted and officer, there are less fish in the fish bowl to observe. We have to demonstrate the highest level of values and morals, both to validate the trust placed in us by the public and because we must set the standard for the troops observing our every move.

Keep the faith, weed out the bad apples and break out the "Brasso" to polish away the tarnish on our reputation!

Response by PO3 Michael James made Mar 10 at 2015 10:26 PM

2015-03-10T22:26:09-04:00

I honestly believe that they do ! Unfortunately we see our values threatened, pushed to the limits by Very highly profiled leaders walking all over human rights, with little hesitation or consideration for the values of others. I too, have seen other individuals actions that have shaken my morals, My Values.. Just recently, the removal of the American flag from the college dorm.. In 1966, they burned the American Flag !! The right for some to do this is protected by the very Constitution that we ALL swore to defend.. To much blood has been spilled for our Flag.. She Deserves the Utmost Respect !!! Thank You..

Response by MSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 1:49 AM

2015-03-11T01:49:35-04:00

The simple fact that someone poses this question speaks volumes to the severe need for both morality and values. I'm not dictating what those are, they can be unique to each person or situation, but we seriously need to regain soldiers who defend principles over paychecks. Ideals rather than benefits and morality over self!

Response by MSgt Allan Vrboncic made Mar 11 at 2015 8:45 AM

2015-03-11T08:45:22-04:00

Morals, values, character should always matter. This is what separates us from the uncivilized Countries, to include Muslim Countries where there is no value on life.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 1:33 PM

2015-03-11T13:33:46-04:00

The best leaders are the ones who lead by example, of course we have seen the "do what I say not what I do type" but at the end of the day which one do we respect and willingly follow more? It saddens me that out of the 53,509 Naval Officers (1), it is the 76 Naval Officers (total since 2011) that have been "fired" (2) that many focus on. But then again most tend to remember the "bad" versus the routine good anyways.

Sources:
(1) http://www.navy.mil/navydata/nav_legacy.asp?id=146
(2) http://www.stripes.com/news/fired-navy-skippers-often-stay-in-service-1.317935

The U.S. NavyStatus of the Navy

Legacy US Navy web content

Response by SSgt June Worden made Mar 21 at 2015 6:53 AM

2015-03-21T06:53:05-04:00

Loss of morals & ethics doesn't just happen to men in powerful positions. We are all flawed in our own ways.

It's learning from your mistakes and how you make amends that will set you apart from the narcissist.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2015 3:50 AM

2015-03-22T03:50:02-04:00

Sir, with all due respect, how can they not? Morals and values are essential for bringing HOPE, MORALE, DIRECTION, and EXCELLENCE to the unit! Take them away and you'll get a hopeless, demoralized, and confused bunch of men, part of a so-called UNIT.

I'll call-out Gen. Petraeus, Clinton/Lewinsky, Anthony Weiner, and other unethical characters to their face in a heartbeat! Personally I don't tolerate it. Personally I have high moral and ethical expectations from my men, so much so, that occasionally I find myself being a perfectionist.

Yes, morals and values still matter, even in today's neo-con/neo-liberal society.

As the old quote by Patrick Henry goes, "Give me liberty or give me death", I prefer liberty to calling out a wrongful act and take some potential 'dirty looks' rather than cover it up and live a slave for the rest of my life knowing I could've said or done something about it. But that's just me.

Response by SFC Charles S. made Mar 22 at 2015 3:53 AM

2015-03-22T03:53:31-04:00

This country is in a moral dilemma and needs much reevaluation.

"A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by the majority." Author Unknown

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2015 8:12 AM

2015-03-22T08:12:22-04:00

Principles over party. Principles over interests. The problem is that as a nation we've changed perspectives. If we want to return to who we were at our height of freedom and being the shining city on the hill - we have to put principles on top again.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2015 11:42 AM

2015-03-22T11:42:24-04:00

Morals are relative to the society. So they matter to us, but it differs in each segment of our society as well. The morals of a commune in Utah differ hugely from the morals in LA. Values are the same, but at the individual level. Organizations can not have values, because by their very definition, they require people to "value" them. I have asked everyone I ever briefed at an incoming soldier meeting to tell me what the most valuable thing in their life was...invariably...it was family. There's no "F" in the acronym LDRSHIP. Anyhow, ethics matter. Each segment of society, including ours have ethics. You broach the bright red line of the ethics boundary and you get punished. Plain and simple...usually. Then there is the relative worth of the individual to take into account. Nothing is black and white. A drugged up sex offender with no marketable skills beyond a low crawl and a good shot group has little to provide to the nation in comparison to GEN Petraeus. Throwing the proverbial baby out with the bathwater would be a loss to the nation as a whole. Same thing with McCrystal. These men have something invaluable which they have learned and if we don't use it, then it will go to waste. They have taken their lumps and moved on. Ethics matter...but only to the extent of the UCMJ completion in relation to their relative worth to society.

Response by PV2 Violet Case made Mar 22 at 2015 12:52 PM

2015-03-22T12:52:50-04:00

I do believe our military leadership is still standing proud. But my concern comes with the leadership of a country where we have a leader who has never had to sweat , run, and train and fight for this country. In the future I do believe that all up coming presidents should have to have some military background in their life.

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Mar 22 at 2015 1:31 PM

2015-03-22T13:31:42-04:00

They keep getting away with it because their peers are the ones handing down the punishments. They lose their way because they are human and like a lot of people are living in the new 'entitlement era'. At some point, we, as Americans, have decided that we no longer care about our 'neighbors', we care about how much money and toys we can accumulate. We are no longer concerned about making our country great again, we just want 'a piece of the action'. Money still makes good men do bad things if that is how they measure success. I don't mean to act as if I am sitting on some morale high ground, it just happens that he Army values are in line with my own, so for me it is easier I think.

*edited to add*
I also feel it is important to point out that we have tons of high ranking folks in various positions all over the world, and the vast majority of these people live their lives within the military values.

Response by SGT Tyler G. made Mar 22 at 2015 3:20 PM

2015-03-22T15:20:02-04:00

Morals and values do matter, however I only think something is a "scandal" if they actually broke the law. I don't care about what someone does in their personal life so long as they're a good leader.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2015 3:49 PM

2015-03-22T15:49:54-04:00

I am not justifying GEN Petraeus's conduct; adultery is indeed a flaw of moral character. In the scope of political Washington, however, I do find the timing of the revelation of his breach of trust to be most peculiar; coming so soon in the wake of the fiasco in Benghazi. Was this revelation, his public fall from grace, and eventual criminal investigation and plea deal punishment for his refusal to go along with a State Department/White House cover-up? If he is truly no longer to be trusted, why then is he now being brought in as an advisor on strategy to combat ISIS? It seems to me that an eagle's wings were clipped, lest he be tempted to soar too high; but he is still admired for his predatory traits.

Response by BG David Fleming III made Mar 22 at 2015 7:02 PM

2015-03-22T19:02:31-04:00

Many of these so called men grew in a privileged and entitled environment, not all of them, but many. Everyone around them bowing and encouraging their negative and destructive behavior. Ultimately, When this type of behavior is encouraged and fostered, how can anyone be suprised at the negative outcome? My two cents.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2015 10:16 PM

2015-03-22T22:16:33-04:00

To whom?

Matters to me. I'm not sure what else counts.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2015 12:16 AM

2015-03-23T00:16:01-04:00

They do, but there is no objective definition for what is and what is not moral. Only a communally arrived upon consensus. Morals need to grow and change as society grows and change because change is life and stagnation is death, no exception.

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Mar 23 at 2015 8:08 AM

2015-03-23T08:08:48-04:00

Having served in a less-sanctimonious Army, I say that morals, values and ethics do matter, always, but most of us are men and women, not saints.

Even Jimmy Carter, who as President made a great Baptist minister, admitted to committing adultery in his heart. U.S. Grant and Gerald Ford both had reputations for drinking. There are reports that Dwight Eisenhower discreetly indulged a fondness for his driver.

On a more personal scale, I can recall discussing adultery accusations with a JAG lawyer who made it clear that the JAG policy was that they did not want to touch adultery charges unless there was clear and unambiguous evidence of it impacting unit discipline. Despite the Army being filled with notoriously lecherous troops, I recall only one instance where that burden was met (a soldier had married a nymphomaniac who had romps with almost his entire platoon, including the platoon leader). Otherwise, adultery was considered a civil action which the Army had no desire to get dragged into.

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Mar 23 at 2015 10:26 AM

2015-03-23T10:26:03-04:00

Just as an additional item to provide some context for the notion that rank exempts from responsibility, would anybody care to weigh the treatment of Generals Ward and Baker for their improprieties against the perceived treatment of Petreaus?

Response by MSgt Allan Vrboncic made Mar 23 at 2015 10:30 AM

2015-03-23T10:30:40-04:00

Yes.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2015 10:32 AM

2015-03-23T10:32:39-04:00

Yes, they still matter. Patreus, for example, showed that he is incapable of safeguarding classified information. That is not someone we should turn to for national security issues.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2015 9:07 PM

2015-03-23T21:07:00-04:00

They matter when people want them to matter.
Everyone does not have the same upbringing so some morals and values are not the same throughout America.
On GEN P. He should've been put in jail in my opinion.

Response by TSgt Tim (lj) Littlejohn made Mar 23 at 2015 10:02 PM

2015-03-23T22:02:30-04:00

Let those with out sin cast the first stone! I'm sure as heck not throwing any stones.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2015 4:45 AM

2015-04-06T04:45:05-04:00

http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/PUB1250.pdf
LYING TO OURSELVES: DISHONESTY IN THE ARMY PROFESSION
This study found that many Army officers, after repeated exposure to the overwhelming demands and the associated need to put their honor on the line to verify compliance, have become ethically numb. As a result, an officer’s signature and word have become tools to maneuver through the Army bureaucracy rather than being symbols of integrity and honesty. Sadly, much of the deception that occurs in the profession of arms is encouraged and sanctioned by the military institution as subordinates are forced to prioritize which requirements will actually be done to standard and which will only be reported as done to standard. As a result, untruthfulness is surprisingly common in the U.S. military even though members of the profession are loath to admit it.

.... We continue by examining the effect on individuals and analyze how ethical fading and rationalizing allow individuals to convince themselves that their honor and integrity are intact despite ethical compromise. ...

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2015 5:02 AM

2015-04-06T05:02:04-04:00

Speaking of the US at large, when the rules and regulations change to favor short term performance over long term results we are on a course set for disaster...

If your bonus and continued employment is tied to this quarter's results, what morals and values are you operating under?