Do NCOs and Soldiers expect/want to see Brigade and higher Staff Officers at PRT/PT formations with them? What about doing PRT/PT with them?

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 01:15:22 -0400

When the HHC Brigade or HHBn Division/Corps/etc. holds daily PRT/PT formations, do the NCOs and Soldiers present expect to see their Staff Officers present?
Do NCOs and Soldiers want their Staff Officers to be held to the same PRT/PT attendance standards, or as long as they are fit, it doesn't matter?
(I am not talking about unit runs, or other where everybody is participating, just routine days.)

Response by SN Greg Wright made Aug 9 at 2017 1:33 AM

SN Greg Wright — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 01:33:20 -0400

Well...I never thought enough about people that Senior when I was humping it, but I can tell you that a seed of derision would form within me if someone was giving me orders to do something they wouldn't.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2017 1:48 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 01:48:48 -0400

Our Brigade Does. Our 54 year old Brigade Commander does a 300 APFT. He shows up for monthly PT and he runs a 13:30 2 mile run. He commended the 2 soldiers who beat him.

Response by SPC Greg Campbell made Aug 9 at 2017 1:54 AM

SPC Greg Campbell — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 01:54:09 -0400

remember our line company CO doing PT with us a few times, he decided he wanted play to racquetball one morning. I took his challenge and let him beat me left handed. went out for a drink and he wanted to go again. XO told me to take him to school, switched to righty and trounced his butt to the cheers of the onlookers. like I said, a few times

Response by SGT Joseph Gunderson made Aug 9 at 2017 2:10 AM

SGT Joseph Gunderson — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 02:10:48 -0400

It does make it a little easier to take the higher ups seriously if they still act like soldiers. Many times when those with the rank simply skip out on the little things that they once were held accountable to do it makes it difficult to believe that they are even soldiers anymore. More like just overpaid figure heads or underpaid politicians; simply there to make policy and screw over those who don't abide by them. On that same token, it should be understood by the lower ranking individuals within a unit that sometimes this just is not possible. Those with that kind of rank and the positions that they occupy do have certain demands on their time. I do believe that when possible it goes a long way to gaining the respect of ones subordinates by doing things as small as getting down and doing pushups with your soldiers every now and then.

Response by CPO Glenn Moss made Aug 9 at 2017 2:50 AM

CPO Glenn Moss — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 02:50:34 -0400

Forgive a retired submariner for ignorance on the exact relationship between Staff Officers and the Soldiers in Brigades. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Staff Officers don't seem to be analogous to Division Officers on submarines. The Div-O on subs is a junior officer (typically an Ensign or LTjg, soemtimes a full LT) who is in charge of a division on the submarine. My division (Reactor Controls Division) would have been about 9 to 10 enlisted Sailors. If any officer was going to PT with us as a division, it would be this one.

I would think, though, that any officer who was expected to lead these Soldiers would, in fact, be out there alongside the rest of the enlisted doing the PT, because that's where he (she) would be in actual combat.

At the commands I served which had an organized, routine PT, everybody attended command wide, as their duties permitted. If you had duty on the day the PT occurred on, then of course you didn't attend...but since PT at those commands was typically held 3 times a week, it was a given that you were going to be attending at least 1, usually 2, of the three.

At those commands, even our CO attended PT. Though senior officers may actually have obligations which might be in conflict with the scheduled PT times.

Not all commands I've been at had PT organized like that, however. Some commands the PT was performed on a divisional basis. At those commands, it was typically all the enlisted people in the division who PT'd together. The Division Officer may or may not have PT'd with us. Though quite frankly, it didn't matter to us whether he did or not.

When PRT time came around, though EVERYBODY ran the PRT, from the CO to the most junior Sailor on the sub. This was a mandatory requirement, twice a year, for everybody in the Navy. I don't imagine that's changed since I've retired.

But keep in mind, the submarine community is different than those of our brother organizations in the Army and Marines. We don't PT to the standards the Soldiers are required, because the physical demands of a submarine environment aren't the same as for those that Marines and Soldiers train for in combat. Essentially, our PT requirements are centered around passing the Navy's PRT, which is really a pretty cheesy Physical Readiness Test when compared to the Army or Marine PT requirments. It's a 1 1/2 mile run in a ridiculously long period of time, and a number of situps and pushups which we have 2 minutes each to pound out. That's it.

Response by Cpl Mark A. Morris made Aug 9 at 2017 2:51 AM

Cpl Mark A. Morris — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 02:51:31 -0400

It never crossed my mind as I was always to busy trying to keep up on the 5 mile runs. They were always so dam fast.
M. Morris RVT

Response by SPC Paul Rogers made Aug 9 at 2017 4:00 AM

SPC Paul Rogers — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 04:00:23 -0400

I would say that we would rather not have them at our formations or actually doing PT with us but it would be good to see them out doing PT at the same time and in the same weather as us, instead of just going to the gym and not doing PT out in the rain and snow. This way the soldier's see that they are doing the same shit we are and are less likely to get pissed off at thinking that we are forced to do PT outside in terrible weather while the higher ups are nice and comfortable in the gym.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2017 4:44 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 04:44:02 -0400

When I got moved to s3 after my PSG KD time officers did their own thing. This quickly changed. PT is the only protected time where I can have everyone together. It's important that officers and enlisted build relationshipss through tough shared experiences.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2017 8:38 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 08:38:20 -0400

I will recount what my 1SG once said about morning PT. I was part of the unit that was scattered at multiple locations and buildings during the work day since we were a headquarters detachment. He considered morning PT the time we could get together and have an activity as a group since it was the only time we really got to see each other together during the day. Not only doing any sort of team/sport PT, but shared experiences which helped bond our unit and that particular "espirit de Corps" which seems to be lacking from my experience lately.

This also seemed to be the case in most of my units. PT was more than just keeping ourselves in shape. It was a time when (especially if you're in HQ type units) people got together, chatted while working out, did team events, worked together, kept telling stories of SGT Chen and how he is horrible at combatives, etc.

Add in officers and I think it improves the working relationships of a unit. Perhaps they may not be there all the time, but if they're on a regular schedule where they are there on particular days, that was good for me. I was in units where the officers had to do PT with the commander once a week so we knew we wouldn't see them on that day. As long as they let the NCOs run the PT as I've seen some of them try to directly correct the soldiers when it is our job to do so.

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made Aug 9 at 2017 9:18 AM

SFC Joseph Weber — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 09:18:07 -0400

Occasionally at least. They should bounce around to all the units not just the HHC. Let everyone in the Brigade or Battalion see them once in a while.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Aug 9 at 2017 11:39 AM

SGM Erik Marquez — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 11:39:33 -0400

Out at formation yes
Embrace the suck

With them for PRT, that depends can they let leaders lead even if it's not there way?
Can they hang and not impead the PRT session?

Response by LT Brad McInnis made Aug 9 at 2017 11:42 AM

LT Brad McInnis — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 11:42:41 -0400

When the Navy started doing mandatory group PT on the pier, many officers did not show up (myself included). I could always find a reason not to. Eventually started going, and it was a lot of fun and the sailors really liked seeing my fat butt out there. I think it is important for officers to do this stuff with the troops/sailors. My 2 cents...

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2017 11:55 AM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 11:55:11 -0400

LTC Private RallyPoint Member Sir, leaders lead by example, so the answer is yes, unless there is a very good duty reason to miss PT.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Aug 9 at 2017 12:08 PM

CSM Charles Hayden — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 12:08:46 -0400

In Basic, the PLT LDR would join us for the second round of the obstacle course! I started developing an 'unfair' attitude about then! I was fast, on the second round, I was a bit slower and could not catch-up him. LTC Private RallyPoint Member

Response by SGT Tony Clifford made Aug 9 at 2017 1:19 PM

SGT Tony Clifford — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:19:12 -0400

I always assumed that unless the Bn Cmd wanted to do an officer PT session, all officers participated in PT with their platoons or sections respectively.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2017 1:49 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 13:49:20 -0400

I was always thoroughly surprised to see any staff officers show up to PT any unit I've been in. My last unit a couple warrant officers showed up - that amazed me.

There was a time it was put out (I was at BDE HHC) that all officers CPT and below had to go to PT and put out by the BDE XO. That lasted all of a few weeks I think and then they slowly stopped showing up. Oh and S3 was exempt.

I think they should show up because their soldiers are there so why not? Does it hurt them to show up to PT? Even just a couple times a week.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Aug 9 at 2017 8:13 PM

Cpl Justin Goolsby — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 20:13:01 -0400

Personally, I'd rather not. If I'm the senior rank, then I'm the one running the PT session. If my superiors are present, then they'd be responsible for the PT formations. This takes valuable leadership experience away from future leaders. It's one thing if SNCOs/Officers joined us every once in a while for camaraderie or to measure progress. But daily PT formations should be kept at the NCO and below level to give us the experience to not only train ourselves, but our troops as well.

For example, my PT formations. I had to ensure my Marines showed up on time. In the proper uniform. Are properly hydrated. Have all necessary safety gear. Are adequately warmed up. Conduct PT in a timely manner to ensure my Marines have time to shower, get dressed, eat chow, and still report to work on time. It also gives us experience in adapting and improvising when Junior Marines don't show up in the proper uniform... or don't come with safety gear... or show up to PT late... etc.

Having the SNCOs and Officers present removes me from the equation.

Response by SGT Philip Roncari made Aug 9 at 2017 8:42 PM

SGT Philip Roncari — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 20:42:56 -0400

As we had mostly SFCs and SSGTs as our platoon leaders and had a Captain and later a 1st lieutenant as our company commander during training,staff officers were scarcer than hens teeth and seldom if ever seen let alone doing PT,but that was a very long time ago and am sure things have changed

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2017 9:27 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 21:27:05 -0400

As a Senior NCO I can only speak for myself when I say that I like seeing others doing PT in the morning. When I spoke to SMA Dailey he said "PT is the holy hour" meaning everyone should be out there motivating each other, and pushing each other to be the best we can be. When I see Staff Officers that are fit and are doing PT with their Soldiers it just reinforces my belief that they are a good leader.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Aug 9 at 2017 9:48 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 21:48:10 -0400

Conflicted here.
- I understand that it is important to lead by example.
- many on the BDE staff are dealing with medical issues, requiring physical therapy and profiles and can't do what the PT du jour is. So keeping the asphalt from floating skyward while the others are doing something you can't seems like a waste of time. I am not getting any more Hooah watching them, and they certainly don't get a charge from old ass watching them do it.
- the comraderie and bonding happens when everyone is doing the same thing, sharing the struggle. Separating one group from another and doing "modified" versions is divisive and counter productive.
- I have commanded an HHC. I have been a BDE DCO. There is an us and them mentality despite everyone's best efforts. The HHC proper thinks the staff blows them off on everything, the staff thinks HHC sits up late at night inventing crap for them to do. The BDE XO tries to find a balance. Sometimes he tells one side or the other to suck it down and move out. It never seems to fail to amaze me how a HHC no fail requirement shows up at the same time Division reinvents USR and you need chunks of the staff to be there for indefinite time, indefinite quantity to prep and vet the thing on short notice.
- i do not think it is all or nothing. There should be PT Sessions where all of HHC is doing a group PT activity. There should be more PT done at the section level, where sections are leading PT with their internal chain. There is also a place for big boys and girls to do PT on their own.
- while PT time is sacred, there is the verynreal issue of capacity. Anyone who has slathered themselves with GAA and taken a running start at McKibbon Gym on Fort Carson during PT, just trying to get in, knows in which of what I speak. This also goes for the post pools for lap swim for us broke people. There is only so much walking and push ups and sit ups one can do and have it be effective...not to mention walkers carry a stigma. Just calling it like it is. Have been standing there when senior leaders question every single walker they see. Some are dogging it, others are legit. All get broad brushed.
- just because I am not at your formation (which I did attend) doesn't mean I am not doing PT. My last two years on active duty I had a P2 profile and started an hour and a half before PT, with me swimming laps for 30-45 minutes, then doing the made dash across post to BDE for PT, to then fight my way into the gym for a mix of strength training or more cardio on a bike or an elliptical. So should my soldiers do what I do everyday and meet me at 0500 at the Pool? Close to the end, I did circuits in my building with a mix of body weight exercises, TRX exercises, and (three flights of) stairs. I could have been far more effective in less time if I could have swam then conducted my scheduled work out in half the time at the installation nearest my offpost quarters and gotten to work far earlier to answer Division and Customer unit email and made sure the Commander/CSM actions are queued up in priority order. While awaiting shower time, I often ended up fielding 911 type calls from staff Duty and HHQ while everyone else went home for personal hygiene. If I had done PT individually, I would be showered shaved and fed before all this and been able to run with it, maybe even fix it before everyone else gets there.

Response by SSG Ralph Watkins made Aug 10 at 2017 10:58 AM

SSG Ralph Watkins — Thu, 10 Aug 2017 10:58:23 -0400

It was bad enough having the battalion staff PT'ing with us line companies once a month. We had to show up earlier than usual of course. Inspections even in PTs. That was just one unit. When I went in the Guard, our one Brigade commander was more than welcome to PT with us. He put most of the young kids to shape & he had a mouth on him like a drunken...soldier. I guess it depends on the quality of your command staff whether they should be honored running with the troops or not.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2017 4:58 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Aug 2017 16:58:23 -0400

I honestly don't care about seeing Field Grade officers doing PT. If He/she couldn't pass an APFT and H/W they wouldn't be there. I'm more concerned with their leadership philosophy

Response by SPC William Bryan made Aug 11 at 2017 1:55 AM

SPC William Bryan — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 01:55:30 -0400

Pt is important time for Battalion Officers to show up. It builds a speedy core, connects the troops to command and gives comma d a look at the troops. I believe it is vital to a units success.

Response by LTC Robin Gronovius made Aug 11 at 2017 12:02 PM

LTC Robin Gronovius — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 12:02:35 -0400

My first assignment not in a unit was my final assignment in the Army. I was assigned to Fort Knox garrison as the mobilization officer. The directorate was being converted from military to civilian personnel so the closest group of soldiers was HHC Garrison. I found out where and when they did PT and fell in with them. I ran from the housing area to the company area in the mornings, did PT in formation with the company and went on the unit run. Then I'd run the mile or so back to my quarters. Only person in the formation who knew who I was was an E5 airborne buck sergeant who was the supply sergeant for the directorate I was a part of and the first sergeant.
Strange thing is I never saw the HHC company commander at PT. I didn't even know who he was, although he turned out to be a neighbor I knew because our daughters were classmates. I only found that out when there was a post run and I was in formation with HHC garrison and we saw one another. Never saw another officer at the formation, although I did see an extremely out of shape chaplain attempt a PT test when they conducted them.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 15 at 2017 3:51 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Aug 2017 15:51:47 -0400

Most FORSCOM units I have been assigned to require EVERYONE to be at PT in the morning unless there is some operational or personal conflict that prevents one from being there. Being a PT stud doesn't neccessarily make a leader the next GEN Patton, but it is a pretty good indicator of self-discipline. Failing to show up or moving like a slug in the morning is certainly a good way to make a very poor impression to your chain of command as well as subordinates.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 15 at 2017 4:46 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Aug 2017 16:46:33 -0400

When Soldiers see their BN staff sections doing PT as a team, I believe it meets lead by example. During my time on Active Duty, we did PT as a squad and out PL and PSG would rotate which squad they would do PT with each day and then also do PT with the 1SG, XO, & CO once a week. We would also see our BN staff doing PT as a team. Sometimes the BN Commander and CSM would even jump in and join a squad for PT.

Response by CW2 Stephen Pate made Sep 8 at 2017 2:29 AM

CW2 Stephen Pate — Fri, 08 Sep 2017 02:29:36 -0400

The best way I've seen this done is when the leadership team goes around and does PT with a different unit/echelon every day.

PT is easy, but for me the hard part is just getting out of bed and getting to formation on time! I'm never late, but I never want to be there!!!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2017 4:37 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Nov 2017 16:37:03 -0500

I'm currently in command of a BDE HHC, so this topic is something I am very, VERY familiar with. I'll try not to rant. Every unit is different, but our BDE Command Team's battle rhythm is insane, and (for us) it is not realistic to expect them to be at formation very often. The Staff officers work for the COL, not me; but I am nevertheless responsible for readiness and command climate. The unit commander has to clearly articulate his expectations for his staff. If its ambiguous, they won't show. That's the first step.

Also, if the boss doesn't show- fine; but I need support from the deputy and staff primaries, or no one will be there but myself and a handful of Soldiers. It trickles down: the senior leaders don't show up, so section OICs don't show up, then NCOICs, then Soldiers start to get disgruntled.

Bottom line: It's nice to have the boss participate, but it is imperative that the section leadership be there. It builds cohesion and trust.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Dec 18 at 2017 11:13 AM

SGM Bill Frazer — Mon, 18 Dec 2017 11:13:31 -0500

In a good unit, we always saw our O's with us, tho most of the time we the staff did our PT together, O's, NCOs, and EM.

Response by 1SG Bill Farmerie made Jul 20 at 2019 11:19 AM

1SG Bill Farmerie — Sat, 20 Jul 2019 11:19:57 -0400

As a soldier and then as a NCO, I didn't care about that.

Response by MAJ Geiter Dunn made Jul 20 at 2019 11:53 AM

MAJ Geiter Dunn — Sat, 20 Jul 2019 11:53:24 -0400

BLUF: if you don't act like a soldier, don't expect to get respected like one, no matter the rank.
When I was a Bde HHB Cdr, the post's Combat Development Command personnel (~200) were assigned to my unit. Despite having relaxed banker's hours, those personnel NEVER showed up for PT or the APFT. When I denied (by reg) leave or awards for CDC personnel (who generally outranked me) because they did not have a current APFT, the sparks flew. I even had some come in with APFT cards and tell me that they took an APFT while TDY to some other post! Uh huh, sure. Of course they were fake, and none could name the unit or the NCO that signed the card. Luckily, I had a Bde Cdr who backed me up, and took pleasure in seeing these fakers huff and puff through an APFT just so they could get leave time, or their PCS award after 3 years of chairborne PT.

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Jul 20 at 2019 4:06 PM

CPT Tom Monahan — Sat, 20 Jul 2019 16:06:00 -0400

When I was a Staff Officer I PT’edw with my Shop. My NCOIC would let the senior Specialist or junior SGTs run us through the drills. Sometime my NCOIC, Food Service SGT, CWO, (sometimes the BMO and XO) and I would have a long run “meeting” to discuss issues we had to deal with.

Response by SSG Mark Matteson made Jul 21 at 2019 2:48 AM

SSG Mark Matteson — Sun, 21 Jul 2019 02:48:17 -0400

All based on mission and the business of the day.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2019 10:41 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Jul 2019 10:41:37 -0400

When I was an NCO, I didn't want the staff officers in my PT formation. I believe a little bit of separation is necessary. As an Officer, I still hold the same belief.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2019 2:32 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Jul 2019 14:32:52 -0400

on a daily it would be nice but not necessary, but on PRT everybody should be there, it shows the Sm,s that the command staff are held to the same PRT standards, when I served with Marines we had company pt Monday and Wednesday, on Friday we had Bn Pt everyone was there, it was for me cool being led by the head shed, seeing them in the lead Bn colors and all, that is esprit de corps, I have never experienced this in the Army as a reservist.

Response by CPT Brad Wilson made Jan 14 at 2020 6:47 PM

CPT Brad Wilson — Tue, 14 Jan 2020 18:47:54 -0500

When I was on our battalion staff we did the PT test with Headquarters Battery on our 2 deployments the staff did PT with Headquarters Battery and on drill weekends when we did PT we did it with the Battery

Response by 1LT Vance Titus made Jan 15 at 2020 12:55 PM

1LT Vance Titus — Wed, 15 Jan 2020 12:55:39 -0500

"Expect"? maybe; "Want"? yes. That is what leadership is all about.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2020 8:03 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 May 2020 20:03:13 -0400

Commanding & staff officers should always run PT with their soldiers. Period.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2020 3:50 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Dec 2020 15:50:29 -0500

Honestly most don't care. If pt is the only thing a supposed leader can do then they aren't worth the tries on their sleeve. Exp, training, skills make the leader. I would rather have a staff who knew their job inside out & could excel over the gym rat.