Do NCOs not know our weapons systems today?

2015-07-14T10:39:09-04:00

So I am sitting here this morning telling my son, via FaceBook while he is at a range, how to make sure the MK-19 is loaded correctly so it doesn't jam. Do today's NCOs not know our weapon systems so they can train their Soldiers or what? They are deploying next year and this is kind of disconcerting.

UPDATE: My son qualified 9-10 for Sharp Shooter. Not bad for the first time. I asked why his NCOs didn't tell him about why the weapon malfunctions and using a ton LSAT (told him to use a lot of it). He said that his NCOs said it is easy just point and shoot. Sorry but to be good with it, it takes just a little more than point and shoot.

Response by LTC Jason Strickland made Jul 14 at 2015 10:42 AM

2015-07-14T10:42:34-04:00

SGM Steve Wettstein, I think it's a matter of their MOS, duty assignment, and previous NCO leadership that makes all the difference. I had similar situations occur with my unit and I agree with your concerns!

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Jul 14 at 2015 11:20 AM

2015-07-14T11:20:16-04:00

I think when it comes to the lesser used weapon systems like the MK-19 (a great tool to have while deployed by the way), leadership could probably use and ask for a refresher course prior to taking troops to the range. I would go further and say that dependent on the unit, further, increasing training should be conducted all weapon systems including the M9 and M4 must be considered.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jul 14 at 2015 11:37 AM

2015-07-14T11:37:55-04:00

Skills that atrophy with time. Like anything, if you don't use it, you lose it. Some weapons like the M16/M4 are permanently ingrained, while others were handled less or infrequently.

I was in during the transition from the M60 to the M240G. During that time, I'm willing to bet I could find NCO+ who had never touched a M240G, and at the same time we had junior troops who getting minimal time on the M60 at SOI.

When I got to Quantico, I can say with certainty I touched my weapon twice, during qualification weeks. I didn't even have one permanently assigned to me. As LTC Jason Strickland said, a lot of it's a matter of assignment and station.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2015 11:45 AM

2015-07-14T11:45:55-04:00

We had a great deal of training that need to be accomplished prior to our last deployment in this very area. Thanks to a select few squared away NCOs we were able to get our unit prepared to face the challenges we had. However, those select few worked their tails off!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2015 12:40 PM

2015-07-14T12:40:17-04:00

Holy &%*$. That is pretty bad. Someone there would get their stripes taken away for letting that happen. I don't think we push enough weapons training but when a unit goes out to a range isn't the right time to learn about that weapon system. They should have busted out some TM before that. I suppose they didn't do any preliminary training it sounds like or build up their training to the point where all of their soldiers are familiar with that weapon system. I really hope that isn't the case for all NCOs and it was just that unit that is questionable when it comes to weapons. But really concerns me that they are about to deploy. When I was in Iraq we had a gun truck that had a 50 cal that didn't head space and time it right. So after a week they finally test fired it and nothing happened. They say it was messed up but if they Head spaced and timed it right should have at least fire off one round. It never did. They blamed the gun. I told the PSG that something should be done and that is pure incompetence. Nothing happened to the Squad Leader. I will say that I lost a lot of faith in that squad leader.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2015 12:41 PM

2015-07-14T12:41:54-04:00

In my old unit, the machine gunners were always cross training the infantry guys on their weapons. If we knew before hand that someone would be a turret gunner that wasn't a machine gunner by trade we'd send them to a two primer.

Response by SPC Margaret Higgins made Jul 14 at 2015 1:10 PM

2015-07-14T13:10:34-04:00

I VERY MUCH agree; SGM Steve Wettstein. MY GOODNESS!!!

Response by SGT Jeremiah B. made Jul 14 at 2015 1:26 PM

2015-07-14T13:26:43-04:00

The Mk-19 is a great example of a weapon system you may have, will use if deployed, but somehow never seem to get any hands on with while in garrison. As an infantryman, we had them, but I fired one exactly one time in 4 years. It's a command rather than NCO issue.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2015 1:26 PM

2015-07-14T13:26:52-04:00

Marksmanship training has seriously lapsed. Our BN had a policy in Iraq you were to role in trucks with the ammunition loaded feed tray closed bolt closed.
The CSM thought that would prevent discharges ( when pointed out when you cycle the bolt you cause a jam, he'd go into defense mode and not listen to any reasoning) So we dealt with broken weapons for a long time simply caused by not knowing how to load a machine gun.
When the Army only funds one MG range every two years you can't expect much better.

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Jul 14 at 2015 1:39 PM

2015-07-14T13:39:41-04:00

In my opinion, there's no excuse for an NCO not to know his organic weapon systems and their operation, maintenance and employment.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Jul 14 at 2015 2:12 PM

2015-07-14T14:12:35-04:00

I was an 11M and knew the Bradley inside and out, but I never saw a MK-19 until I reclassed into aviation. The second I saw a new toy I put myself on range safety and spent the day getting to know that awesome little creature. If you PCS to a new unit and they have something new to your brain housing group, get to know it. Find the SME and find out the top malfunctions with the platform and get behind the trigger. When the crapola hits the fan, you do NOT want to use the MK-19 as a club.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Jul 14 at 2015 2:24 PM

2015-07-14T14:24:51-04:00

Sounds like your son's leadership has some work to do, starting with working on themselves. Knowing your MTOE weapons is pretty much job #1 for a squad leader. One of the things I used to do as a team leader/squad leader is once a month (or as often as possible, especially rainy days) I would gather my squad, check out as many weapons in our MTOE as I could get my hands on, and have relay races. It was basically this: Disassemble the M16, M9, SAW, M60, dropping all the parts in a footlocker. When that disassembly is complete, run about 50M, remove the barrel and trigger group from the M2, reinstall, and set headspace & timing, then run back to the footlocker and reassemble & function check the disassembled weapons, and tag the next guy. When possible, we checked out 2 of each so we could compete between the two teams. Maybe this is something your son could suggest to his leadership for a "Sergeant's Time" activity?

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Jul 14 at 2015 2:56 PM

2015-07-14T14:56:38-04:00

Brass to the Grass is the way I always remember anything that is linked! Mk-19 I have very little experience on. MA duce and down I got pretty good. M-249, 240, m-16's, m-9. have owned a Glock so should be good on the m-11(I think)

Response by SSgt Scott Schwerman made Jul 14 at 2015 2:59 PM

2015-07-14T14:59:13-04:00

I don't know the MK-19, but then again, I have and will most likely never touch it.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Jul 14 at 2015 3:07 PM

2015-07-14T15:07:48-04:00

Speaking of weapons proficiency, Has any one had any range time on the new 50, M-3 I think, that doesn't need the HS/timing done on it. Hell barrels doesn't even screw in any more. It has tits and they lock in place!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2015 3:49 PM

2015-07-14T15:49:23-04:00

The most underused resource is the BN/BDE Master Gunner. If your unit is deploying and going through crew served weapons training, the unit should request the MG to be on hand.

Response by LCpl Bradley Otto made Jul 14 at 2015 4:00 PM

2015-07-14T16:00:19-04:00

What it sounds like is that a message needs to be sent to the command that the training nco's need a refresher. If the staff can't do it properly then get the right personal.

Response by SSgt Charles Edwards made Jul 14 at 2015 6:33 PM

2015-07-14T18:33:27-04:00

I saw a lot of this in the Air Force among those who only fired once a year depending on their arming category. Knowing there are NCOs out there without knowledge of operating a weapon as simple as the M16/M4 is scary. We were conducting a base exercise at Rhein-Main and after it was terminated, I was one of the clearing barrel supervisors. A Tech Sergeant proceeded to the barrel and had no idea how to clear out his weapon. Imagine that, a Senior Airman having to instruct a NCO on how to properly clear out his weapon upon turn-in.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2015 8:11 PM

2015-07-14T20:11:36-04:00

The MK-19 is always a tricky one, especially if you were once proficient on the system. There are lots of differences even in that. If you are on a STRYKER and are using the RWS, or any version of CROW system it's way different than ground mounting it and firing. So you can be a SME of one way if that is what your unit has and lose the basis of what the system is. I don't want to just harp on the MK-19 because there are other weapons that are the same way. Having guys that are UAC qualified or SAM-G qualified in your unit are great, but we all don't have that luxury. More often than not people are visual or hands-on learners than being able to read (i.e. EIB or EFMB train up). You have to teach based on the abilities of your audience. Power points and training models work for different people. If NCO's don't know what they are working with, their leadership is failing. Also, as a Weapons Squad Leader, I pride myself on knowing everything in the arsenal from the M9 through the Gustav. If I can employ it I need to know it's capabilities. The least cross trained weapons are always mortars. I feel that 11B's should always know the 11C's jobs, and vice versa.

Response by PV2 Matthew Dzemske made Jul 15 at 2015 4:04 PM

2015-07-15T16:04:02-04:00

Misplaced priorities. In OSUT/BCT, you're told you'll get more training on heavy weapons once you hit your unit. When you hit your unit, since many are combat vets, training is either set to their tempo or nonexistant. Battalion level commands and higher don't seem terribly concerned about soldiers being combat ready...they're worried about threads on uniforms, hospital corners, and other nonsense. There was several generations of lower enlisted who could clean the shit out of the B's, but couldn't do much else. They're now squad leaders. The example was rarely set to learn or teach; when soldiers looked up the chain, the discussions were focused on prettier uniforms, tattoos...we are too focused on what a soldiers should look like; and we created a generation of garrison soldiers.

Response by MSgt David Haupt made Jul 16 at 2015 12:23 PM

2015-07-16T12:23:37-04:00

It is called a "Lost Art" to become familiar with the weapon system you will use down range. My first experience with the M60 was during 60 school were we learned the ins and outs of the weapons system. Too include using a cigarette butt when using blanks. My next experience was the M2. Another two weeks class were we learned the ins and outs of the weapon system. Again 50 weight motor oil to keep it running. Then the M19 and so forth and so forth. We expect everyone to figure out the weapons systems in a day class and go to the range and fire it with no problems. We have lost the skills to teach by trying to push people through. I remember going through familiarization course for the M2, M107, and MK19 in five days. The instructors told us the only reason they did the class was "you need to know just in case the gunner goes down." UnSat!!