Do new generation of soldiers to lack respect and discipline?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 18:58:36 -0500

Many NCO's find the new generation of soldiers to lack respect and discipline.
What is your opinion on this subject? Is it natural to think this or is this newest generation different?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2013 7:03 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 19:03:02 -0500

SSG Macomber, I am a relatively new soldier. Can you give me an example of what you mean when you say that I think everything should be handed to me?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2013 8:40 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 20:40:52 -0500

Its the new generation. A generation of technology and lack of discipline in the early years of childhood. Kids are joining these days not to gain knowledge, loyalty or courage but to get that cash for "college" or to repay loans and stuff. That's just my opinion.

Response by SSG Laureano Pabon made Dec 9 at 2013 8:53 PM

SSG Laureano Pabon — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 20:53:23 -0500

Perhaps because there aware your suppose to take care of their health and welfare.

I really don't know, I never had anyone expect me to hand them something except a boot up their A&&.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2013 8:53 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 20:53:50 -0500

<span style="background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248);">I don't think that way at all SSG Macomber.  Although I am a new soldier and a reservist I work hard to maintain my discipline and military bearing. I strive to be the example for my peers and would never expect or accept something I felt I didn't deserve. </span>

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2013 9:22 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 21:22:41 -0500

That's one of those microcosm's that we all hear about. People get conditioned and react to what they learn. I am not saying it is right, but we tend to baby teens as we never have before.

Response by CSM Stuart C. O'Black made Dec 9 at 2013 9:27 PM

CSM Stuart C. O'Black — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 21:27:10 -0500

Honestly, not to disrespect the post but I hate new Soldier bashing. I came in over 26 years ago and my NCOs talked about us - the new spoiled Soldiers. Every generation is different and every generation talks about the past one. It is our Job as NCOs to know how to lead them. If you can't then you are irrelevant and not needed as a leader. So stop complaining about the new Soldiers and learn how to motivate and lead them. PERIOD!

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2013 9:40 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 21:40:54 -0500

You are most welcome SPC Thundercloud. I have the deepest respect for what I saw in Desert Storm, OIF, etc. I felt proud of all of you.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2013 10:01 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 22:01:33 -0500

Like everyone has stated before is a "generation thing" and with every new generation there is a whole set of new problems. With this particular generation parents have raised them to provide them with most of the things they didn't had when growing up; parents happiness is to make their kids happy and to protect them from everything even thought the intent is is not harmful it just creates people that don't understand the value of "earning" things. While it doesn't apply to everyone it does apply to a vast amount of children from the "new generation". But as SGM Stewart stated it is our mandate, our responsibility to teach, coach, mentor and train these "new generation" within our ranks and yes it is a challenge but it fills you with some more pride when you see a new leader born.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2013 11:15 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 09 Dec 2013 23:15:20 -0500

Whenever I hear this complaint in the past I would say (half jokingly) “they
must have learned this from their NCOs”

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2013 5:08 AM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 10 Dec 2013 05:08:10 -0500

The reason they fell that everything should be handed to them starts in basic training. If the Drill Sergeants were allow to highly motivate a soldier as they were when I when thru then they soldiers would have felt as if they earned the right to become a soldier instead of the hugs and kisses they are given now.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2013 6:29 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 10 Dec 2013 06:29:43 -0500

I can semi-relate to the original posters question; I don't think it applies to all new soldiers but I can say that there are a huge number of them that seem to believe that if leaders aren't catering to their whims, the leader is a bad leader. As many others have stated though, it's about finding how to motivate them and break them of that. No one became an amazing soldier overnight, they were mentored and molded.

That being said....not being able to use physical training to correct soldiers is a massive blow to how we can mentor, develop, and shape these soldiers. I'm not talking about hazing where you have to low crawl in ASU's, shower shoes, and pro mask for 5 clicks...but in fear of "hazing" they greatly diminished on the spot, physical training that was used to make a soldier "snap to". The newer guys, will never experience that and I think it makes them softer.

Response by SSG Chuck H. made Dec 10 at 2013 6:29 AM

SSG Chuck H. — Tue, 10 Dec 2013 06:29:50 -0500

Because I had such a long break in service I've had many people ask if things are different from then to now. I want to say "does a one legged duck swim in a circle?" Of course it's different! Besides the differences in services (Air Force to Army), it is a different time entirely. When I got out of the Air Force in 1987 Ronald Reagan was still the POTUS! We hadn't had Desert Shield/Storm, HMMWVs were still a fairly new concept, GPS was a pretty cool idea that needed work, the military as a whole had almost unlimited budgets and we were still fighting the Cold War! This is an ENTIRELY different military with very different members within it. Only the most senior, or almost senior citizen members, remember that stuff.
Now that said, even at that time WE were that privileged generation needing things handed to us according to the older or more senior generation. All in all it's the same with each generation in that the one before it is obligated to provide for their children with what they didn't have. Not just stuff but also ideas, concepts and a way of thinking that is different than the generation before. They did that for us just as we are doing it for our children, and now that my generation has done this and they enter the military, they expect a little more than we did. Why, because they were given more than we were not only in technology but also in better easier ways to get stuff done! So in some ways yeah they are VERY different but yet they are just the same. Personally I count it a failure if I don't learn something from my Soldiers everyday. In fact, I challenge each of you to do this. Trust me, they are QUITE the teachers and their ingenuity will surprise and probably shock you.
As was said before it is up to us as leaders to adapt to this new generation, lead them and teach them to be the leaders of tomorrow just as the generation before lead us and taught us to be the leaders of today!

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2013 2:07 PM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 10 Dec 2013 14:07:34 -0500

This generation does not like to read or learn and does not realize that almost everything, (To not say EVERYTHING) is written in the Army Doctrine.

Lack of motivation and toxic leaders not wanting to set high standards add up to this.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2013 2:08 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 10 Dec 2013 14:08:04 -0500

I'll tell you about this generation. I've been teaching this generation since 2006, and I train my Soldiers to train this generation. This is the most technologically advanced generation in history. What I mean by that (because every generation is more technological than its preceding one) is that these children do not remember a time without computers in the classroom, without free wifi at Panera, and without the world at their fingertips be it via the internet or Netflix. This generation is team-work oriented. They are more content to work with one another than they are by themselves. They understand that numerous heads approaching a problem together goes further than one. They also enjoy success. This generation is overloaded. The per capita hours this generation spends at work (to include homework the myriad of extra-curricular activities) exceeds what any other generation has done. These children spend more time on electronic devices, but spend far less time in front of the television. This generation is also the most educated generation in history with about 50% matriculating into a college or university (compared to 20% of the entire adult population, historically). <div><br></div><div>A few negatives: This generation isn't as fit as in the past, but that's because this is a generation of plenty. This generation doesn't understand personal sacrifice in a way as previous generations, but that's because they haven't been asked to. This generation is used to instant gratification but that's because their parents have given it to them. This generation is the way it is because of the previous generations' expectations and guidance. If you want to complain about Soldiers these days, then you must start at those who reared them ie the previous generation. </div><div><br></div><div>The military is reflection of the country it serves; it is not better. We are public servants. We must remember that, and we must evolve to continue to reflect that culture lest we lose sight of this fact, and lest we begin to think we are better than those whom we serve. </div>

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2013 9:27 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 10 Dec 2013 21:27:35 -0500

I don't think this trend has anything to do with basic training. It has nothing to do with the military at all. These individuals learn this from home. I spent two years going to school with individuals that were entitled. Their parents hand them everthing, including a college education. I walked the halls and heard kids colplaining that mom and dad didn't not get them the best computer or a more expensive car. If you walk through any given store and listen to the conversations between parents and children you would realize what this world has come to. I it the " I WANT THE NEWEST AND BEST OF EVERYHTING AND IF I THROW A FIT OR POUT I WILL GET IT. WELCOME TO THE ENTITLEMENT I DON'T WANT TO WORK FOR ANTHING GENERATION.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2013 11:21 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 10 Dec 2013 23:21:33 -0500

We all think we had it worst than then younger Soldiers, I am sure we all have said "when I was a ......." I know I have, things have changed but again it will always be the same. Soldiers will get away with whatever their leaders allow. The Soldiers in my company know they don't get anything handed to them, they all work for everything they get.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2013 5:58 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Dec 2013 05:58:42 -0500

Everything should be handed to new soldiers. That is our job as NCOs maybe I am not following the question. I expect only 2 things from my newer soldiers that is to be on time where they need to be and motivated to do what ever task that is handed to them each and every day. Unless you are a military brat you know very little coming into your first unit. Of course, I expect much more from my specialist and junior NCOs. 

Response by SFC James Baber made Dec 11 at 2013 9:30 AM

SFC James Baber — Wed, 11 Dec 2013 09:30:11 -0500

This a double-edged sword of a question to answer. 1st I would say that the younger Soldiers of today are part of the me generation, before all the younger NCOs and Officers jump on the oh your wrong about me or other bandwagon, allow me to elaborate. It all started around the time of the Clinton administration and the "leave no child behind campaign" it has gained momentum since then, if we aren't able to push our children to learn and acquire the knowledge properly through their failures, then it is given to them so they can move forward. This translates into not only their educational lives, but personal ones as well, their parents either feel the need to give them everything they didn't have or expect the system to do it or are forced to because of the mentality of the current status.

We do have a much more intelligent force coming into the military today, but we also have a good portion of the ones that skated through the system because of LNCB that had everything either handed to them or spoon fed, but as leaders (NCOs/Officers) alike we are able to mold and/or correct those problems by adaption, we are taught growing up in our career to adapt to changes and to learn to progress, this is just one of those changes that we have to adapt to and correct what needs to be corrected.

If we want these new Soldiers to become the leaders of tomorrow to replace us, we need to guide them in the right direction and show how hard work and dedication will EARN them those things and/or opportunities will be much more fulfilling than it being handed to them as a large percentage do fell it should be, this does not apply to all soldiers, but we have all experienced the ones that it does.

Now with that being said, it is the old story of a few bad apples, while it may be only a few hundred soldiers writing bad checks in Killeen, the community gets a bad taste and feels the entire force of Ft Hood is a problem, this is a hypothetical example, but anyone who has been in a while can relate to what I am saying on that.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Dec 11 at 2013 10:07 AM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Wed, 11 Dec 2013 10:07:10 -0500

I would look at society as a whole.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2013 10:36 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Dec 2013 10:36:16 -0500

Depending on a person's perspective, you could be the "New" Soldier of which you speak. In general, each new generation SEEMS like a more spoiled generation to the one before it, when really they have less emotional resilience. (Blame parents, schools, softer DS, whatever you want.) It is our JOB to make them resilient by giving them sound feedback that might be hard for them to hear, to encourage them to fix what needs fixing and give positive reinforcement for qualifiable and quantifiable accomplishments.

All of this aside, lets look at the positive improvements of the 2013 Junior Enlisted Soldier:

1. My Soldiers had better tactical instruction in BCT than I did (pre-9/11), even if theirs was delivered by a kinder, gentler Drill Sergeant. What they lack in D&C they make up for in Warrior Tasks and Battle Drills.

2. Instead of doing everything the hard way, they seek out a smarter way of doing it. As an AIT instructor, I notice that they tend to have more of an intellectual curiosity, driven by their access to the instant satisfaction of the internet that few of us senior leaders had available growing up. They are like little empty sponges!

3. Nothing is black-and-white to them. They are open-minded about their peers and the world, and open to critical thinking, even if they are initially more sensitive to criticism.

To recap, these Soldiers have a lot to bring to the table and have unlimited potential if we can build their resilience, provide constructive criticism, and humble ourselves to learn from and listen to them.

Response by CPT Brandon Christensen made Dec 11 at 2013 11:14 AM

CPT Brandon Christensen — Wed, 11 Dec 2013 11:14:03 -0500

If that is what you think, then shouldn't it be our job as NCO's and officers to help change this mentality and mold them into the Soldiers we need in our force? I think the issue comes from that they get everything handed to them on the civilian side and haven't fully understood how the military works. That is why they go through BCT to help change that mentality and then its our jobs are leadership to continue that idea and mold them into a force we need.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2013 5:46 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Dec 2013 17:46:04 -0500

Unfortunately it is what our society is preaching to our youth. Everyone gets a medal or recognition whether they finish first or they finish last, everyone is entitled to the same reward whether they are in the motor pool busting their chops from the first hour the mission comes down or just the strolls in during mission completion expecting a four day pass or award for their ASUs.

Response by CSM Stuart C. O'Black made Dec 17 at 2013 11:04 PM

CSM Stuart C. O'Black — Tue, 17 Dec 2013 23:04:14 -0500

Again I am against generation bashing but what we truly forget is to forget about the Army factor and focus is the fact that leaders of my age have children of those currently joining - so what is the point?

We razed the children or Soldiers that we are complaining about. My daughter is 23 years old and she is one of these new generations and would not make a good Soldier. However, I think she is a fine upstanding young lady. BLUF: We have to accept responsibility of those we are complaining about.

Not sure what is the break in rank where this started happening because you see SSG to CSM and Officer who is complaining of the NEW Soldiers issue? But again who raised these Soldiers?

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2013 12:36 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Dec 2013 12:36:17 -0500

Leaders need to move forward with the new "days" or "new Soldiers." Good Leaders need to adapt and overcome to change if you can't do so then you need to move on. Learn how to reach out and train them properly so that they are afforded the same training you had no matter if they've been in for 7 moths or 5 years.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2014 9:22 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 21:22:50 -0500

HAHA that's funny maybe if they deployed and finish their first enlistment honorably.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2014 9:29 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 21:29:14 -0500

I had a Soldier like this in my Platoon. He was 19 years old and thought he new how the Army worked. He would constantly talk bad about NCOs. So when my PSG found out about this he called him into our office and chewed his ass up, down, and sideways. He shut his mouth a little bit when he was threatened with with a chapter. But in the end he was transferred to another company lol. But you need to have a talk with this Soldier, and scare him straight.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2014 12:05 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Jan 2014 00:05:44 -0500

SGT Warner,

Not after they do burpees until they learn that isn't how things work.

Response by SPC Dan Goforth made Mar 8 at 2014 12:19 PM

SPC Dan Goforth — Sat, 08 Mar 2014 12:19:47 -0500

SPC DelArroyo, it unfortunately comes from the lack of work ethic and drive. Too many of our most simple tasks are now automated. There is very little that requires daily effort anymore. The five in your examples need to be better briefed on general military authority. When you see something wrong, tactfully correct that person. Be respectful, but persistent. That is the only way the Army is going to change.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2014 12:29 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Mar 2014 12:29:19 -0500

SPC DelArroyo:

It boils down to one word: DISCIPLINE.

Those without discipline will never take the hard right over the easy wrong. We all joke about 70% being the Army's passing standard. However, if you were to translate that into combat operations, is achieving only 70% of your mission acceptable? How about returning with only 70% of your troops?

Discipline CAN be taught, but it takes lots of time, effort, and dedication on the parts of both the led and the leader. As we transition back to a garrison setting, we do have the time for this, and must have the time for it. The question is whether our leaders have the WILL to do this.

As the Army shrinks, if our leaders will not teach and instill discipline, the Army will take the ultimate action and separate those who are not at the top of the OML.

Response by MAJ Joseph Parker made Mar 8 at 2014 1:04 PM

MAJ Joseph Parker — Sat, 08 Mar 2014 13:04:23 -0500

SPC Daniel D: This is not an uncommon tendency, and wholly a function of leadership. When I first came into the Army in 1975, discipline was awful. As 2LTs were instructed at our basic courses that we would have to lead our troops into battle against hugely superior numbers of Soviet troops if war came. To me it begged the question: "What have the rest of the officers in the Army been doing?" You know what? As a leader, I decided I didn't care what the rest of the Army was doing. MY men, and MY unit, were all going to be ready for war and if it came, WE were going to win and come home, if we had to throw rocks and fight alone. For me, that approached worked. Yes, I had to discipline a lot of soldiers and stand up to a lot of peers and a few superior officers. Good soldiers gravitated to my unit, bad soldiers away. Pride grew in the men. Often in readiness testing we were the only unit to pass. Awards and promotions were given as they were earned. You fight as you train. Thank goodness we never went to war, but everyone in my unit knew he was ready. Armies will always have slackers and bad times; but they will always also have good leaders and soldiers, too. The Army didn't die from indiscipline and national neglect after Vietnam. It won't die now. The good soldiers and leaders won't let that happen.

Have a recommendation for you! get some business card forms for your printer, and print the quote below on them. Then every time one of your peers (or anybody else) starts "taking the easier wrong," whip out one of the cards and silently give it to them. Even a SPC can gently show great leadership!

"Discipline is the soul of an army. It makes small numbers formidable; procures success to the weak, and esteem to all." George Washington

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2014 11:34 PM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Mar 2014 23:34:52 -0500

The question is;"What in God's name are our recruiters doing?"<br>

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2014 12:15 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 Mar 2014 00:15:09 -0500

I agree with MAJ Parker and SGT Unger.

Also, being in AIT, you're surrounded by bad apples that the Army hasn't finished weeding out. During my 10-month-long AIT, there were plenty of soldiers who were chaptered out by the time I graduated. Then when we all got to our various duty stations, the more undisciplined soldiers didn't integrate well and got crushed within the gears of the big Army.

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made Mar 9 at 2014 10:53 PM

MAJ Jim Woods — Sun, 09 Mar 2014 22:53:46 -0400

Discipline in todays Military reflects the fortitude of our current society.

Back in the day (60's and early 70's), DI's, E-5's and above, scared the crap out of me (I was an E-2). It was a more hands on environment. To this day, when I think of our Field First Sergeant (a term some won't recognize), I still look around to see if SFC Green (in 66' already had 2 tours with SF) is watching me. Our "TOP", 1st Sgt. Bradley (tour with the 173rd), allowed him free run in motivation techniques. My Platoon Sergeant, SSgt. Latella, helped or just stood back and let it happen. There was something back then called a 1st Sgt's Article 15 and it never went on your record. I never got one but I did see them administer it with gusto and words I had never heard before. The fact that I still remember their names (1966) this many years later are a testament to the education they gave me.

I ran into each of these Gentlemen later as a Captain and thanked them for the mental and physical toughness they instilled in me. Without it I never would have made it through OCS or some of the other schools I attended. I accomplished things that I never thought I could do.

I always wanted to make them proud of what they had a hand in producing. Thanks to their Leadership and Motivational skills, I could not take the easy way out and I could not fail.

Years later (2011), as a contractor in Iraq, I saw good troops but not much individual initiative. Some were more motivated than others. I was fortunate to be part of a small team that had excellent NCO's (no one below E-6) and Officers (no one below 03). No Slackers among them.

Leadership has great impact on an individuals initiative and effort. Maj. Parker is right on with the US Grant quote. To put it simpler, "Train as though your life depended on it!" Cause' it does.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2014 12:20 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Mar 2014 00:20:54 -0400

I hate to say it, but sometimes its that SPC with a college degree, which happens to be mentioned in every other sentence. Here at DLI, I'm in the land of IET Soldiers (haven't been to AIT yet). I think it is harder for the older ones, as they do not realize that they need to start at the bottom. They may have been on top of their game as a civilian, but in the military, that time starts over. I think once they realize this, they'll do fine. I had one like that. It just took a friendly talking to to correct it.

Response by SSG Oliver Mathews made Mar 12 at 2014 12:35 AM

SSG Oliver Mathews — Wed, 12 Mar 2014 00:35:56 -0400

We had a soldier who thought he was god once... Claimed he could drink everyone under the table and that NCOs didnt have shit on him.

His NCO started dropping him every time he saw him... and long he would be down there pushing would depend on how long he would talk back/bitch about doing pushups.

It lasted a few months until the kids head got right, and he realized that when he just dropped he did 2-4 and got up... but when he bitched he did 40-50... He came up to us (a group of NCOs) and asked politely and we explained the situation. After that he wouldnt bitch about doing anything we told him to do....

I dont believe that instant UCMJ is always the answer. Let the NCOs be NCOs. Dont tie our hands just let us do what we do and we can reshape soldiers... It may seem harsh or cruel but if it looks that way, we have tried all the nice ways we can think of, now we are using the proverbial 155 to fire for effect.

Response by SPC Daniel Edwards made Apr 22 at 2014 12:08 PM

SPC Daniel Edwards — Tue, 22 Apr 2014 12:08:22 -0400

These young soldiers haven't been humiliated yet. The problem is they play Call of Duty or watch a war movie and think that's how it truly is. I was evicted, my car was repo'ed and about to become a bum on the streets when I saw an ad in a paper to join the Army. I have never forgotten how bad I had it and I am thankful for every opportunity it has given me. These noobs think they are SFC material as soon as they come in. They especially think it when they have a parent who was high ranking too. I remember when I first got to my new unit that I saw new soldiers being yelled at by multiple NCO's to straighten up. Now its only the first line supervisor that can do it and they have to speak nicely. I learned quickly how to play by the rules. These newbies are always trying to find a way to play xbox instead of doing their work.

Response by MSG Floyd Williams made May 14 at 2014 9:05 PM

MSG Floyd Williams — Wed, 14 May 2014 21:05:45 -0400

The new generation of soldiers have brilliant minds, a lot of them open for guidance.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2014 7:18 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 15 May 2014 07:18:37 -0400

One side of me wants to say those NCOs you refer to need to be gone.

Another side of me wants to be happy that those NCOs have matured and can see the immaturity in younger Soldiers. Instead of complaining about the identified faults, FIX them!! That is what we get paid to do.

Every generation thinks the younger generation is worse than they were. It's all a part of growing up and becoming mature and learning from mistakes. NCOs need to be doing the teaching not complaining.

Response by SSG Laureano Pabon made May 15 at 2014 12:23 PM

SSG Laureano Pabon — Thu, 15 May 2014 12:23:54 -0400

I hope no one minds if I pout this but there seems to be a bit difference between the leadership school of my time compare to the present time. At least in my time when it came to training we did it by the book. I had someone whom was handed to be that was what one can say a Bad Apple, but I didn't see a Bad apple, I saw a SM and treated him as such, I delegated authority, put him into a leadership position and got results, the kind that made his NCOIC come to me to say "How did I get 8 hours of work out of him when I wasn't able to get 1 hour?". For me its what you learned in the leadership schools and how you apply what you learned. I applied the same way as I was taught (Professional in speech, appearance, attitude), got my SM to provide feed back for that SM and had him listen but I also got that same SM to provide feed back from his peers as far as their leadership skills. As far as his actual NCOIC, I really had no words to tell him because I really didn't know the SM was a Bad apple. There is no such things as Bad apples, unless one wishes to make them one and I choose not to have any Bad apples in my team, only future leaders. As NCO in my time it was my job to make future leaders, leaders who can think and act on their own, leaders whom can train others in one or more things and know how to get that training across with out problems. Leaders whom can be cross train in MOS's that's not theirs and still get the job done as a team.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2014 8:38 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 17 May 2014 08:38:35 -0400

The newest generation is different. They are coming in to a smaller force than there was before. It is the generation that every job you apply for needs a college degree. So most people entering have a degree or sometimes even more than one. They already come in with knowledge and experience and are willing to see where things can be changed for the better, but people already in have a hard time with change because that is how it has always been done. So when they give ideas and are shot down immediately, it isn't about their lack of respect or discipline but how because they are newer people think that they don't know what they are talking about.

Response by SSgt John Oldham made May 18 at 2014 12:46 AM

SSgt John Oldham — Sun, 18 May 2014 00:46:57 -0400

From personal experiences with personnel, and watching shifts in society have led me to believe that young troops today are used to living in a world of self entitlement. While we as NCO's work to rebuild the motivators of new personnel, many feel that discipline and respect must be earned first before offered. Although society continues to change, and the demands of leadership and managers must adapt, military service mandates a certain level of respect and order be awarded to the rank giving it. There is a time and place to question authority, but in the middle of the battlefield is not the place. We as warriors can disagree with the individual giving orders, but when push comes to shove orders and respect must be given.

Response by CPT Jacob Swartout made May 18 at 2014 8:56 AM

CPT Jacob Swartout — Sun, 18 May 2014 08:56:52 -0400

I just took over an OSUT unit and the Soldiers there are highly motivated. My Drill Sergeants have them well disciplined from what I have observed so far. For the few that need extra attention in some areas, they are either retrained or recycled to make them better; if not they are chaptered out. They are all taught the Army Values very well. Understand the Soldiers will make mistakes however, they learn from them. Now it's up to all of us to continue to lead them like so many have said in this post.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2014 8:12 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 May 2014 08:12:33 -0400

The Corp of the NCO is not equal across the Military. I saw this first hand. The first time was on the trail and dealing with different types of NCOs. The next one was moving from a combat cultural environment to a service support environment. It went from NCOs doing their part by training, developing, and leading their Soldiers to feels like laziness and whining. I don't feel it needs a change just needs to be in sync.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made May 19 at 2014 8:27 AM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Mon, 19 May 2014 08:27:34 -0400

I don't necessarily think that it is in need of change, what is really required is a swift kick in the ass to get NCOs across the board to do the right thing, at all times (shotgun blast there so if it doesn't apply don't get a case of butthurt). There also needs to be a RE-definition of NCO Business and Officer Business, we as a Corps NEVER gave away our base of power, however a blurring of the lines between NCO and Officer Business has led to some NCOs to not step up to the plate when it comes to their lane and handle their business. That is just my humble opinion from the safety of the sidelines after a 26-year career.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made May 19 at 2014 8:45 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Mon, 19 May 2014 08:45:43 -0400

I imagine the first enlistee into the worlds first army was saying much the same thing about the second enlistee... The current generation will always be "softer" than the previous. The current generation will be saying the same about their replacements. It's tradition..

Response by SFC Erin Barnett made May 19 at 2014 1:53 PM

SFC Erin Barnett — Mon, 19 May 2014 13:53:08 -0400

The civilian world is have difficulties with them too. They call them the flip-flop generation. They have issues focusing, look for lots of positive reinforcement, and do not believe in vertical integration. They think they should be able to walk into the CEO's (or CRD's) office and have a chat whenever they like. They also suffer from the instant “EVERYTHING” that comes from being plugged in all the time.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2014 12:49 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 21 May 2014 12:49:34 -0400

I'm going in this blind. I haven't read any of the posts. Throughout my 20 years in the Army, I have seen no difference in Soldiers, just a difference in the rules and regulations that govern our actions. A Soldier will get away with whatever you let them get away with. There are good Soldiers and bad Soldiers…..it's been the same since the beginning of time. I was an awful Soldier when I came in and I'd like to think I've turned into a pretty decent NCO. It just takes time. Remember, discipline is learned. Undisciplined Soldiers are a direct reflection of their leadership.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made May 27 at 2014 1:24 AM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Tue, 27 May 2014 01:24:45 -0400

SSG DM, I believe you have to find out what make each soldier operate and act and then in turn, find a sensible way to modify their behavior without a making a great disruption in the work space.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2014 1:48 AM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 27 May 2014 01:48:50 -0400

Every generation says the same thing, people are confused when they think change is lack of discipline

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made May 28 at 2014 12:51 AM

1SG Steven Stankovich — Wed, 28 May 2014 00:51:21 -0400

You experience is shared across the services. I have the same conversation with peers of mine. We discuss the changes of the mentality of Soldiers of today vice 20 years ago. While there are new challenges today, the "why generation," the introduction and use of social media, and other avenues and outlets that we did not have "back in the day," Soldiers, and I am sure Sailors and Marines, raised their right hands for the same reasons that we did. That is what you have to keep in mind. We as leaders need to adjust our leadership and communication styles to be effective in todays military. While a "shut up and color" is a perfectly good order at times, there are times that require a little more. It is important to know the difference and adjust fire accordingly.

Response by SSG Ike Phelan made May 28 at 2014 12:28 PM

SSG Ike Phelan — Wed, 28 May 2014 12:28:31 -0400

This is a very hard question to answer simply because there are so many factors and variables to consider when trying to provide an accurate response.

I know there is a time and place for soldiers to ask questions and most importantly why are they asking. On the other hand I am a firm believe in respect to those senior to you. I also BELIVE that respect should be earned by that leader and it is there job to give their soldiers a reason to respect them. I will give you an example when I deployed to Iraq in 2003 as part if the first group there for the build up we had some down time and plenty of preparing to do. So it was guaranteed that we would all go to the chow hall rent at the same time. Now my platoon Sargent at the time and all my NCO's would go with their soldiers. When we got in line the leadership made sure that we lined in according to rank with the lowest ranking soldier eating first and the platoon Sargent eating last. This is just one little thing that my leadership did that made me respect them in away that was earned. Now fast forward 6 years and I see officers and senior enlisted going ahead of their soldiers with no concern for their soldiers. I found it very disheartening and so you need to ask your self this are the leaders today doing the same thing that the leaders yesterday did to earn the respect if their soldiers.

Also I have noticed a growing trend in the army as a do it your self organization. My squad leader used to make sure my 201 file was squared away and that all awards and badges where properly added and in a timely matter and if not he would go give someone a motivational speech to correct the problem now I witnessed this in more then on occasion. They also used to ensure that when we went TDY EVERYTHING was taken care of now they simply sit the soldier I front of a computer and say arrange your trip. I am not saying it is a bad thing just simply potion out the fact that today's leaders do not have nearly the amount of influence in the care of the soldier that they used to be still demand the same respect. You as a leader need to find a way to show your soldiers that you put their needs above your own that is what being a leader is all about. I can not tell you how many times I have seen an NCO tell a soldier to study for the board after work but not offer to go to their house and help them.

So as I said at the start soldiers have to respect and obey their leader's but it is the job of the NCO's and officers to earn that respect. Trust me when you earn it not only will you have better soldiers but a better class of individuals. I know I played the game as a lower enlisted soldier that if I did not respect an NCO I would do what they asked but that was it. When they earned my respect I made sure they never even needed to ask me to do something I simply did it because I knew it needed to be done.

Response by SgtMaj Carl Bratton made May 29 at 2014 9:26 PM

SgtMaj Carl Bratton — Thu, 29 May 2014 21:26:38 -0400

This generation is called Millennials , such as in the past baby boomers, generation X and Y. Each generation brings new circumstances that influence behavior. Look at history every generation had epic changes in behavior from dress to attitude, good or bad, it's just a fact. They have also been major advancements in every field, medical, education, technology etc. with that comes social change, hence he we are.in America today the age of 22 has the largest population. That tells me we will change socially, we as the seniors must learn to adjust or we'll be left behind. We see that with our parents and grandparents. The social media scares them, thus they get left behind.

Response by CPT Jacob Swartout made Jun 30 at 2014 10:06 PM

CPT Jacob Swartout — Mon, 30 Jun 2014 22:06:39 -0400

I can assure you that in my unit we either recycle the ones with disciplinary problems or they are chaptered out of the Army. Now it is up to them to continue to respect and have the self-discipline to be team members as they move up in their careers. Hopefully, we can accomplish this through positive influence for them to be the future leaders that the Army needs in all positions.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2014 10:24 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 30 Jun 2014 22:24:32 -0400

It all starts from the basics, I have always believe that a foundation can never be changes unless you demo the whole house. We can renovate, but the core remains the same, learned this from my mom, then was taught to me again by my first squad leader in the Army at Ft. Bragg. There were times in last 6 yrs, that I had to reflect back to this teaching. Break them, and build them up again...sometime Army values becomes just data in their minds and not a heartbeat for them."data can be lost, but what is felt within will change a warrior."

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2014 9:47 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 Aug 2014 09:47:15 -0400

(Just a note, this was Fort Jackson and in our unit... this is not across the board)

It has been an ongoing issue since I came in. I attended basic training in 2001 at Fort Jackson. As the PSG, my drill sergeant told me several things and I personally observed some issues.

1. The drill sergeants could not smoke us. The most push ups that could have been given was 10. If anyone was tired, they had to stop.

2. They could not cuss or swear at us. Our drill sergeants called us fudge cicles and shis nicks instead.

3. Promotions and competition between the drill sergeants were skewed. Basically if you failed a soldier for a bad PT test, they hurt their chances in becoming drill sergeant of the quarter. So, everyone sort of passed and was not failed. Not just for the test, but for everything else.

4. Current leaders including myself are part of the process in the past. Since we were treated with more respect and never yelled at, I believe that some (not all) are easier on new Soldiers also.

5. We and them are part of the facebook generation. The word "I " and "all about me" is factored. Some disrespectful personnel are thinking about themselves instead of the team. Generation X and before had more of a collective mentallity.

6. Finally, they are not stupid. We were not stupid in 2001. We know they can get in trouble by saying "hazing ". Soldiers have more tools every year to bring down their leaders. That can be blamed on poor leadership in the past.

Regardless, it's ongoing. The Army has a hard time finding the difficult balance. I believe that with the Army downsizing, all stakeholders feel they have to fight for their jobs. It's a two way street. A bad soldier will not be able to reenlist and could potentially bring their leaders in and peers along with them. Same is said for the poor leadership. They will bring in everyone they can. We must all follow the army values and do what it right for all.

Offbeat note, we did PRT in basic in 2001 for all of the old timers. Yes, the Army is almost done figuring it out.

(typed on my phone incase of typos)

Response by SFC Amir Kurdy made Aug 9 at 2014 11:03 AM

SFC Amir Kurdy — Sat, 09 Aug 2014 11:03:02 -0400

We need discipline, because a PVT who don't listen now will never listen when the bullets are flying.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2014 2:34 AM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 10 Aug 2014 02:34:34 -0400

Just last week, I witnessed a PV2 walk into the CSMs office (with the BN CDR present) and address the CSM, "what's up". It just about gave this old dude a heart attack.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2014 5:54 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 10 Aug 2014 05:54:17 -0400

I believe it is the environment in which they are coming out of that matters. I see the combat arms FNG and they are scared stiff, but now that I am in the BEARS program for 35P and I DLI in Monterey. It is enough to drive any one mad. I saw a PVT2 tell a SSG that he doesn't have to listen to him since the private is in the National Guards. The Sergeant why trying to tell a private to remove the waffle top of his head as if the PVT was using it for a do-rag. The command did nothing to the PVT, but they told the SSG if he sees a problem like that again. He must contact the National Guard platoon Sergeant. There is the problem being able to pick and choose who to listen to with the consequences.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2014 10:39 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 10 Aug 2014 22:39:23 -0400

The new generation of Soldiers are used to having everything handed to them. I believe psychologists have proven this so I am not going to go into it but accept it for what it is. Respect and discipline however is something that is part of our core beliefs when you are part of the Profession of Arms. New Soldiers need to be taught this and as NCO's it is our responsibility to ensure that it happens.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2014 11:28 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 10 Aug 2014 23:28:54 -0400

Honestly, often times I see my soldiers acting or trying to act similar to how I did when I was a new soldier. It cracks me up actually. I have new found respect for the leaders who had to put up with me thinking I was smarter or slicker than them. Now, I try to remember which leadership styles worked on me and which ones didn't and apply it today. I didn't like being treated like a know nothing rookie, I appreciated a block of instruction and trust to accomplish a task, and I liked knowing that my leaders would be firm and fair with me but would have my back when I needed it. I haven't seen too much difference between what I wanted and needed from my leaders years ago and what is effective for my soldiers today. There will always be the 10 percent soldiers, but usually how you wanted to be treated then is how they want to be treated now. That is just my take on it from my ranks. Good topic indeed.

Response by CW3 Clayton C. made Aug 11 at 2014 7:14 AM

CW3 Clayton C. — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 07:14:00 -0400

This is an outstanding topic and I'm glad I stumbled upon your post. "New Soldiers lack discipline" has always been the cry of NCOs. We like to think we were perfect and always tactful but we weren't... or at least I wasn't. I would always find myself in trouble for calling out hypocrisy (vastly overweight NCOs telling privates that they should be better at PT). Of course I would get counseled and write my rebuttal, but it didn't change the fact that some viewed me as undisciplined for bringing it up.

I have a very strange opinion on this and I hope it doesn't sting too much, this is a "if the shoe fits..." type of issue. If your new soldiers lack discipline and you've been in charge of them for more than a few months, the fault lies only with you. We, as an NCO Corps, do not "own" our job anymore. Some of us still do, but some do not so as a whole we are faltering. If you've ever had another NCO ask you why you've corrected their soldier or tell you not to correct their soldier, especially in front of that soldier, you've witnessed an NCO choosing friendship over authority. Thusly he/she has undermined his/her own authority along with every other NCO's authority. When one of my guys/gals comes running up to me saying "so and so disciplined me for blank reason." I ask them if they were wrong. If the answer is yes, I thank them for the "heads up" and tell them to improve their attitude and actions. If they answer no, I ask them to explain the situation to me. 99% of the time, my soldier was wrong and I explain why. Granted, years ago explanations were neither needed nor given, this is just how I choose to lead my soldiers today. Again, thank you for bringing up this outstanding topic, Staff Sergeant Macomber. I think it should be revisited very frequently.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Nov 3 at 2014 3:05 AM

CW2 Joseph Evans — Mon, 03 Nov 2014 03:05:54 -0500

This is a failing of American culture first.
There has been a steady trend towards a disregard for authority and for certain American institutions since we won WW II. The McCarthys, the Nixons, The New Wall Street, #OWS, The Tea Party, the evangelicals, modern bread and circus acts.
We elevate the rebels and disparage loyalty in film, book and TV. The military must first cope with what pop culture has made the generation they must train.

Response by 1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2014 3:39 AM

1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 03 Nov 2014 03:39:57 -0500

I totally agree that military bearing and discipline is completely lost. It starts at the recruiting office. We are more stuck on numbers than quality and character of the individual. Not to mention how basic training is set up these days.
In order to fix this problem we need to stick with the program. I mean this by keeping the same standards in National Guard and Reserves as active component using one example. Many more.......

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2014 4:49 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 03 Nov 2014 04:49:06 -0500

I think the problem is leadership, and not just the individual. Too often now NCO's want their soldiers to "like" them or are buddies instead of being their leader. I see many NCO's telling joes not to stand at parade rest for them, etc. It is a slippery slope that starts at the top!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2014 10:04 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Nov 2014 10:04:22 -0500

No your correct there is no discipline in today's youth. I see it as joe comes into the army.
Social media in OUST and BCT has hurt today's army. Look at your soldier waving to the camera holding signs here is your phone time to call and check email update Facebook
Sad, and we as DS are held to uphold this because those are the rules and the sm suffers parents are being lied to by there kids because they can't handle being in basic training, really it is basic training this crap is easy
Off my soap box

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 8:40 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 06 Oct 2015 20:40:33 -0400

i am a newer soldier and from what ive seen there is alot more people that have no faith in them selfs so many need a larger sence of respect for themselfs and for there leaders, but at the same time I look at some ncos and feel as if there not doing their job as a leaders, when i was a manager at family dollar when i walked around and just yelled at that one worker who always was doing something wrong he would just slip up more but when i approached him and guided him he did a way better job and it was flawles all im saying is that some soldiers just need guidence

Response by David Wawrzyniak made Nov 17 at 2016 8:46 PM

David Wawrzyniak — Thu, 17 Nov 2016 20:46:48 -0500

Suck it up buttercup....

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2019 10:50 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 04 Aug 2019 10:50:36 -0400

I'll post my comment before I read the rest and later my opinion. I'd love to see what is said on this.
I believe once the soldier arrives they need an initial counseling with their FLL and fellow team members. They come in maybe expecting all this stick time (construction operator lingo) and can do all these things, but they really need to hear from the group what is done, how it's done, and answer any questions they have. Without this they still believe what their 30 year service vet cousin told them and what their best friend who's deployed 4 times is saying the service is like. I hear that more often and they seem to believe "I can have this too." Speak with the troop. I'm both old and young enough to be part of this generation but I don't fit in with the term. It's the individual to be concerned about, not a generation.