Do officer promotions need to be fixed? https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed <div class="images-v2-count-1"><div class="content-picture image-v2-number-1" id="image-95605"> <div class="social_icons social-buttons-on-image"> <a href='https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rallypoint.com%2Fanswers%2Fdo-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed%3Futm_source%3DFacebook%26utm_medium%3Dorganic%26utm_campaign%3DShare%20to%20facebook' target="_blank" class='social-share-button facebook-share-button'><i class="fa fa-facebook-f"></i></a> <a href="https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?text=Do+officer+promotions+need+to+be+fixed%3F&amp;url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rallypoint.com%2Fanswers%2Fdo-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed&amp;via=RallyPoint" target="_blank" class="social-share-button twitter-custom-share-button"><i class="fa fa-twitter"></i></a> <a href="mailto:?subject=Check this out on RallyPoint!&body=Hi, I thought you would find this interesting:%0D%0ADo officer promotions need to be fixed?%0D%0A %0D%0AHere is the link: https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed" target="_blank" class="social-share-button email-share-button"><i class="fa fa-envelope"></i></a> </div> <a class="fancybox" rel="6e2f5968ebb17417549545bf09933bfe" href="https://d1ndsj6b8hkqu9.cloudfront.net/pictures/images/000/095/605/for_gallery_v2/0deca211.jpg"><img src="https://d1ndsj6b8hkqu9.cloudfront.net/pictures/images/000/095/605/large_v3/0deca211.jpg" alt="0deca211" /></a></div></div>I just read this article about officer promotions and how they should be based on merit more than seniority. I say it is about damn time. I have seen some officers that should have never made it to CPT, some of which I see here. Currently, promotion to CPT is pretty much treated like promotion to SPC. If you just don’t mess up horribly you will get CPT. It doesn’t matter much or what you have done. More than 90% of LTs make CPT. That is foolish at best. It just stumps me how the military placed that much trust in them to be a CPT. But for too long it didn’t matter what you did. I recall when I was eager to make CPT. I wasn&#39;t the most senior LT but I had the most training and qualifications. I was in the Guard but I was on par with my active duty component officers when it came to professional military education. So I got to see others pick up CPT simply to their seniority to me in being a 1LT. I still don’t understand how that makes them a better leader. When I asked why I got an answer saying that it wasn’t my time. WTF, so for the past few years I went to all the right schools and volunteered for anything they needed only to get, “it’s not your turn so you have to go back in line.” You could imagine how pissed I was. I couldn’t take it much more. After I got CPT, without a command I was done. I didn&#39;t want to play their stupid games anymore.<br /><br /><a target="_blank" href="http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2016/06/09/secdefs-personnel-reforms-aim-reshape-officer-career-tracks/85660638/">http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2016/06/09/secdefs-personnel-reforms-aim-reshape-officer-career-tracks/85660638/</a> <div class="pta-link-card answers-template-image type-default"> <div class="pta-link-card-picture"> <img src="https://d26horl2n8pviu.cloudfront.net/link_data_pictures/images/000/076/669/qrc/636010878972569580-27564116035-bfe550be1c-k.jpg?1466611180"> </div> <div class="pta-link-card-content"> <p class="pta-link-card-title"> <a target="blank" href="http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2016/06/09/secdefs-personnel-reforms-aim-reshape-officer-career-tracks/85660638/">The 4 big takeaways from Ash Carter&#39;s new push for military personnel reform</a> </p> <p class="pta-link-card-description">The plan to overhaul the military personnel system that Defense Secretary Ash Carter announced Thursday would end the “one-size-fits-all” promotion system for military officers and clear the way for far more diverse optionssin military career tracks</p> </div> <div class="clearfix"></div> </div> Wed, 22 Jun 2016 11:59:41 -0400 Do officer promotions need to be fixed? https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed <div class="images-v2-count-1"><div class="content-picture image-v2-number-1" id="image-95605"> <div class="social_icons social-buttons-on-image"> <a href='https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rallypoint.com%2Fanswers%2Fdo-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed%3Futm_source%3DFacebook%26utm_medium%3Dorganic%26utm_campaign%3DShare%20to%20facebook' target="_blank" class='social-share-button facebook-share-button'><i class="fa fa-facebook-f"></i></a> <a href="https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?text=Do+officer+promotions+need+to+be+fixed%3F&amp;url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rallypoint.com%2Fanswers%2Fdo-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed&amp;via=RallyPoint" target="_blank" class="social-share-button twitter-custom-share-button"><i class="fa fa-twitter"></i></a> <a href="mailto:?subject=Check this out on RallyPoint!&body=Hi, I thought you would find this interesting:%0D%0ADo officer promotions need to be fixed?%0D%0A %0D%0AHere is the link: https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed" target="_blank" class="social-share-button email-share-button"><i class="fa fa-envelope"></i></a> </div> <a class="fancybox" rel="66f94baf33e77cda21c43ff46ada325f" href="https://d1ndsj6b8hkqu9.cloudfront.net/pictures/images/000/095/605/for_gallery_v2/0deca211.jpg"><img src="https://d1ndsj6b8hkqu9.cloudfront.net/pictures/images/000/095/605/large_v3/0deca211.jpg" alt="0deca211" /></a></div></div>I just read this article about officer promotions and how they should be based on merit more than seniority. I say it is about damn time. I have seen some officers that should have never made it to CPT, some of which I see here. Currently, promotion to CPT is pretty much treated like promotion to SPC. If you just don’t mess up horribly you will get CPT. It doesn’t matter much or what you have done. More than 90% of LTs make CPT. That is foolish at best. It just stumps me how the military placed that much trust in them to be a CPT. But for too long it didn’t matter what you did. I recall when I was eager to make CPT. I wasn&#39;t the most senior LT but I had the most training and qualifications. I was in the Guard but I was on par with my active duty component officers when it came to professional military education. So I got to see others pick up CPT simply to their seniority to me in being a 1LT. I still don’t understand how that makes them a better leader. When I asked why I got an answer saying that it wasn’t my time. WTF, so for the past few years I went to all the right schools and volunteered for anything they needed only to get, “it’s not your turn so you have to go back in line.” You could imagine how pissed I was. I couldn’t take it much more. After I got CPT, without a command I was done. I didn&#39;t want to play their stupid games anymore.<br /><br /><a target="_blank" href="http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2016/06/09/secdefs-personnel-reforms-aim-reshape-officer-career-tracks/85660638/">http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2016/06/09/secdefs-personnel-reforms-aim-reshape-officer-career-tracks/85660638/</a> <div class="pta-link-card answers-template-image type-default"> <div class="pta-link-card-picture"> <img src="https://d26horl2n8pviu.cloudfront.net/link_data_pictures/images/000/076/669/qrc/636010878972569580-27564116035-bfe550be1c-k.jpg?1466611180"> </div> <div class="pta-link-card-content"> <p class="pta-link-card-title"> <a target="blank" href="http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2016/06/09/secdefs-personnel-reforms-aim-reshape-officer-career-tracks/85660638/">The 4 big takeaways from Ash Carter&#39;s new push for military personnel reform</a> </p> <p class="pta-link-card-description">The plan to overhaul the military personnel system that Defense Secretary Ash Carter announced Thursday would end the “one-size-fits-all” promotion system for military officers and clear the way for far more diverse optionssin military career tracks</p> </div> <div class="clearfix"></div> </div> CPT Russell Pitre Wed, 22 Jun 2016 11:59:41 -0400 2016-06-22T11:59:41-04:00 Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2016 12:04 PM https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed?n=1654068&urlhash=1654068 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>It would seem so CPT Private RallyPoint Member Wed, 22 Jun 2016 12:04:28 -0400 2016-06-22T12:04:28-04:00 Response by PO1 John Miller made Jun 22 at 2016 12:39 PM https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed?n=1654147&urlhash=1654147 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div><br />I don't really have much to contribute, as I wasn't an Officer.<br /><br />However, there was a female LT (Navy so she was an O3) at my last command before I retired. From what very little I saw she had no business being in that rank. I heard that she had taken a "leave of absence" for about a year/year and a half so maybe she was a little behind the curve with the rest of her peer group, I honestly don't know. <br /><br />What I did know however was that she was supposed to be "shadowing" our Operations Officer, who was the same rank. One day he (OPS) came to me and ordered me to remove her from all email and Active Directory groups that she was in concerning Department Heads, that kind of thing. In other words the same groups he was in. He didn't get too much into it but I "read between the lines" and could also see that he was somewhat upset, so I took that to mean she wasn't able to keep up. I also know that she resigned her commission shortly after.<br /><br />So I guess what I'm saying is that I agree with you that there are some members, Officer and Enlisted, who never should have been promoted. PO1 John Miller Wed, 22 Jun 2016 12:39:21 -0400 2016-06-22T12:39:21-04:00 Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Jun 22 at 2016 1:42 PM https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed?n=1654342&urlhash=1654342 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I agree and disagree with your sentiments. As an Officer, you are the example set forth for the enlisted to look up to. I'd rather have an officer who knows their shit rather than one who just did their time. But in that respect, how many good officers would get screwed over because they pulled the short straw and got a crappy billet or a jacked up command post.<br /><br />I'd hate to be the officer who gets passed over for promotion because I inherited an off track program. Cpl Justin Goolsby Wed, 22 Jun 2016 13:42:18 -0400 2016-06-22T13:42:18-04:00 Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2016 1:44 PM https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed?n=1654352&urlhash=1654352 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I look at the way the Army and Marines promote their officers and I like the time that the Marines use better, also they don't promote as many to that next rank. The next rank for officers is typically a lot higher success rate then the enlisted force. While I only have about 3% of making SGM and less then .48% of making BDE CSM or higher in a 20+ year career, I've seen more then a 45% chance of making LTC in around the 20 year mark. <br />My question is, why is the officer ranks so heavy compared to what it use to be? Why didn't they build the WO ranks for those special type jobs that became jobs for Commissioned Officers. <br />My last thought is why am I and other senior NCOs signing for all equipment from the PBO, carrying under my name around a million dollars worth of equipment. SFC Private RallyPoint Member Wed, 22 Jun 2016 13:44:37 -0400 2016-06-22T13:44:37-04:00 Response by MGySgt James Forward made Jun 22 at 2016 1:58 PM https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed?n=1654397&urlhash=1654397 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Don't work that way in the Marine Cops, nothing is guaranteed. Competition is very keen for all promotions. I don't see this changing anytime soon. You need to develop a track record of performance over time, sorry but what if an officer is a go-getter and O-2 early , then O-3 early and falls on his sword shortly there after? Whoi got short changed? The guy promoted early, and the ones who got passed up. Not saying that you would burn out early. I just don't see this happening. We are growing the NCO/SNCO ranks longer, why would we want to speed up promotions for officers? I don't think the system is broke, you can get promoted from the eligibility zone (a year ealrly) and thats's what that zone id for. Semper fi. MGySgt James Forward Wed, 22 Jun 2016 13:58:08 -0400 2016-06-22T13:58:08-04:00 Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2016 3:57 PM https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed?n=1654763&urlhash=1654763 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>When you say some of them you've seen here (RP), how can that be unless they are officers you've personally served with?<br /><br />People on forums such as this one (which is not a part of the military and does not include UCMJ restrictions and the expression of political, religious or other beliefs while in uniform) often disagree with one another, but agreement or disagreement on something has no bearing on qualification for a given rank.<br /><br />There are many people here at all ranks that share my left-of-center moderate political and totally atheistic religious views, and far, far more who oppose them, but I would never suggest that someone being conservative, or religious should disqualify them for promotion or authority unless they show that they would violate the UCMJ or civilian law because of those beliefs. For example, there is nothing to suggest that being for or against abortion rights should disqualify someone for a rank or position, but someone who threatens violence against abortion providers is another story. LTC Private RallyPoint Member Wed, 22 Jun 2016 15:57:45 -0400 2016-06-22T15:57:45-04:00 Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Jun 22 at 2016 4:19 PM https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed?n=1654830&urlhash=1654830 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I'm reasonably sure there are differences in the way the Guard promotes officers and the way Active Duty promotes officers. My limited understanding comes from knowing people in the ANG, so I may be a little off base for Army Guard and Active. I think promotion in the Guard depends on unit vacancy. If your Guard unit doesn't have a slot for a CPT, then no 1LT in that unit can be promoted even if otherwise eligible. On Active Duty, you normally get promoted as a result of promotion board consideration. Promotion to Captain was automatic based on time in grade and time in service when I was on active duty. Commanders could red-line a person if they believed they didn't deserve promotion. It took something pretty bad, like a felony conviction, to get red-lined. So, yes, some 1LTs who may look like they don't deserve to make Captain will make it just by serving for a certain period of time and staying out of trouble. The number of officers promoted to any grade is based, at least in part, on the Congressionally mandated end-strength for the Service and the proportional allocation of that number to the officer grades. If the Service has a projected requirement for 2,000 new Lt Col, then only 2,000 Majors can end up with their names on the promotion list for that FY. Not sure how the Guard computes its numbers overall, but they fit into the Service totals somewhere. Lt Col Jim Coe Wed, 22 Jun 2016 16:19:47 -0400 2016-06-22T16:19:47-04:00 Response by CPT Joseph K Murdock made Jun 22 at 2016 4:54 PM https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed?n=1654941&urlhash=1654941 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>It starts spreading out in the field grade officers. It is not completely based on seniority. CPT Joseph K Murdock Wed, 22 Jun 2016 16:54:03 -0400 2016-06-22T16:54:03-04:00 Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2016 5:17 PM https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed?n=1655023&urlhash=1655023 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>And elsewhere on Rally Point...<a target="_blank" href="http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/06/20/ash_carter_military_brass_consider_high_ranking_commissions_for_civilians.html">http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/06/20/ash_carter_military_brass_consider_high_ranking_commissions_for_civilians.html</a> <div class="pta-link-card answers-template-image type-default"> <div class="pta-link-card-picture"> <img src="https://d26horl2n8pviu.cloudfront.net/link_data_pictures/images/000/076/742/qrc/517450620.jpg.CROP.cq5dam_web_1280_1280_jpeg.jpg?1466630231"> </div> <div class="pta-link-card-content"> <p class="pta-link-card-title"> <a target="blank" href="http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/06/20/ash_carter_military_brass_consider_high_ranking_commissions_for_civilians.html">U.S. Military May Begin Commissioning Lifelong Civilians as High-Ranking Officers</a> </p> <p class="pta-link-card-description">On June 9,Secretary of Defense Ash Carter announced a military personnel initiative called &quot;Force of the Future.&quot; And while bureaucratic restructuring ...</p> </div> <div class="clearfix"></div> </div> Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member Wed, 22 Jun 2016 17:17:26 -0400 2016-06-22T17:17:26-04:00 Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2016 7:54 PM https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed?n=1655393&urlhash=1655393 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Rank and responsibility isn't necessarily the same. The Army promotes on potential. Once you reach the next rank, you will have to "prove" that potential was merited to your senior rater if you want a KD position for that rank (ie. command). MAJ Private RallyPoint Member Wed, 22 Jun 2016 19:54:39 -0400 2016-06-22T19:54:39-04:00 Response by COL Sam Russell made Jun 23 at 2016 7:38 PM https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed?n=1658548&urlhash=1658548 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Needs of the Army. COL Sam Russell Thu, 23 Jun 2016 19:38:04 -0400 2016-06-23T19:38:04-04:00 Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2016 7:13 AM https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed?n=1662551&urlhash=1662551 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Please keep in mind 90% promotion rates have steadily declined. Some career fields now promote at 70% and dropping. I won't say our promotion system is broken - but it is antiquated. There are merit based systems among senior positions called below the zone. Unlike the Marine Corps which has very few officer spots as they rise in rank, the Army has thousands of Captain spots to fill - most of the people who fill these spots will be average. Some will be great, some will suck- but the Army's current system requires them to be filled. 1LT Private RallyPoint Member Sat, 25 Jun 2016 07:13:12 -0400 2016-06-25T07:13:12-04:00 Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 28 at 2016 10:42 AM https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed?n=1670333&urlhash=1670333 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Hate to burst your bubble but promotion to CPT is sort of like promotion to SPC - on purpose. Not every officer (or enlisted soldier) was meant to be a leader, like it or not, that's the truth. In fact, we don't need them all to be. Some of my best staff officers were some of my worst leaders. Their bailiwick was numbers, plans or widgets - effectively leading people was simply not heir strong suit. <br /><br />Can you be denied promotion to CPT (or 1LT) for lack of ability - absolutely, I've done it a couple of times. The next thing that happens is that the officer is (usually) very quietly shuffled off to a job where he/she can't cause real damage if they screw up. CPT and MAJ are the two longest held ranks for Army officers. CPT is where the real weeding out begins. Can you lead, administer and serve as a staff weenie or were you just a good platoon leader? Do you have the real skills for leadership at the highest levels or will you be selling pharmaceuticals in 36 months? We have more CPTs than any other officer rank - in fact, if you add 2LTs, 1LTs and MAJs together, you'll get the number of CPTs we have. LTC Private RallyPoint Member Tue, 28 Jun 2016 10:42:22 -0400 2016-06-28T10:42:22-04:00 Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 8:20 AM https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed?n=1790432&urlhash=1790432 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>The higher ranks have more requirements like military education. I have seen people not being promoted to Major or LTC for not completing CCC, ILE and AOC. This more a Reserve and National Guard issue were schooling is more a volunteering when to take versus kind of programmed on active duty. LTC Private RallyPoint Member Tue, 09 Aug 2016 08:20:52 -0400 2016-08-09T08:20:52-04:00 Response by MAJ Bill Darling made Aug 9 at 2016 9:23 AM https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed?n=1790601&urlhash=1790601 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>The short answer is yes. While impatience is typical of any junior soldier and there are expectation issues that have nothing to do with the process, nevertheless the officer promotion system is in need of reform for those issues are magnified the longer you stay in. Start with MAJ Don Vandegriff's, US Army (Ret) "Path to Victory" and go from there. It's the only personnel book I read as an AG weenie but it's a very good read, addressing the many shortcomings of the industrial-age personnel system the Army uses. <br />He's very critical of the officer evaluation and promotion system and I tend to agree. His main points is that It's highly centralized (and thus inherently flawed), it has too many officers, and it doesn't promote free-thinkers who are adept at war-fighting skills. MAJ Bill Darling Tue, 09 Aug 2016 09:23:31 -0400 2016-08-09T09:23:31-04:00 Response by 2d Lt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 11:42 AM https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed?n=1791061&urlhash=1791061 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Not to sound like someone's mother, but I think it would be more prudent to just do your job to best of your ability and wait patiently for promotion. Maybe I have that sentiment as chaplain candidate where my rank and commission comes second to the vocation I've been called by God to live as an aspiring priest, but even as a cadet my mentality toward promotion was not to worry about rank everyone around me was getting promoted to regardless if I thought they deserved it or not. I simply focused on the job I had in front of me and that was certainly the most freeing way for me to be a part of the team that was our cadet corps. 2d Lt Private RallyPoint Member Tue, 09 Aug 2016 11:42:29 -0400 2016-08-09T11:42:29-04:00 Response by LT Louis McKellar made Aug 9 at 2016 1:13 PM https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed?n=1791404&urlhash=1791404 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I've been retired for 22 years, so my perspective may be somewhat dated. One issue I saw was promoting reservist and active duty officers of the same designator. If promotion to LCDR required two at sea department head tours for active duty officers, how can you promote reservists to the same grade? Same goes for completing an at sea XO tour to make CDR. LT Louis McKellar Tue, 09 Aug 2016 13:13:21 -0400 2016-08-09T13:13:21-04:00 Response by MAJ James Woods made Aug 9 at 2016 1:24 PM https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed?n=1791438&urlhash=1791438 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Yes. I will say the promotion board review process is very biased and subjective. Every year, Branch managers will push information on promotion trends from each board review that led to an officer be promoted and you can see almost 180 reversals year to year on guidance for wording in an OER Senior Rater block, or types of assignments (more combat vs less combat, more diversity vs more focused, more educational background vs not important, more quantification vs key words, etc). Bottomline, opportunities for promotions are only as good as the individuals reviewing your records. Plenty of conversations with Senior Raters who've sat on different boards definitely confirmed how subjective they are. MAJ James Woods Tue, 09 Aug 2016 13:24:23 -0400 2016-08-09T13:24:23-04:00 Response by LTC Roderic Hewlett made Aug 9 at 2016 2:13 PM https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed?n=1791600&urlhash=1791600 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>A couple of issues emerge that leads to unqualified officers, and some NCOs too, in the US Army:<br /><br />1. The up-or-out concept drives a promotion at time mentality rather than allowing someone to remain at a role/level they are highly competent in.<br />2. OERs are driven to look "great" rather than really shape an individual for growth. Of course this is related to item #1 - there are not perfect people and real evaluation and assessment leading to mentoring and growth should be the approach - not using the right words with maximum scores just because you wreck someone's career if you do not. I've seen people who pass the PT test, are in weight and look like a total mess get max fitness scores, eh?<br />3. Restoring the "real" regimental system where people get to know everyone and their strengths/weaknesses and must live with their judgments may force accountability back into the promotion system. LTC Roderic Hewlett Tue, 09 Aug 2016 14:13:21 -0400 2016-08-09T14:13:21-04:00 Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 6:55 PM https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed?n=1792425&urlhash=1792425 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Heh, I may open myself up to some pointed remarks here, but I think you're missing the point. We've been an all volunteer service for a long time...and promotions are Congressionally mandated. It's part of the checks and balances. We support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and Domestic. Where in that requirement is that you be the best paper filer, driller, regulation following/enforcing person? We are held to the requirement of being accountable for our decisions to the American Public, subject to the Constitution and Congressionally Ratified Treaties, and the proper execution of lawful orders and the prohibition of the execution of non-lawful orders. If the requirement was to be a better Leader, we wouldn't have the vast history of colorful characters in our past. I'd put forward that some of the best Officer leaders were horrible peacetime officers (Just look at the career of Ulyses S. Grant, I add the Wiki here <a target="_blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_S._Grant">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_S._Grant</a> but there's more to the story, horrible peacetime officer. However, Lincoln reportedly said "I like him. He fights"). There are many differences of opinion of what makes a good leader. Is it someone that meets and inspires the best out of his personnel? Is it merely someone that leads a group of highly motivated and successful volunteers? Is it the one that picks up all the despondent and creates a cohesive fighting force? Is it one that just shows up and manages to hit the right points in the right times of the right people and happens on the selection board granting the right qualities and known by the right people?<br /><br />I apologize for the length of this response, but I feel the need to address a couple of items of concern in your evaluation of the officer promotion system. No system is perfect, but the one we have in place is good enough to suffice the purpose of having an all volunteer service standing ready to execute the mission given. I've seen many a worthy individual removed from the military when I thought they had more to offer than someone else and I've seen many more retained that I believed would serve the military better out of it. But the Military is more than just the sum of its individuals. It is an entity that will continue on despite or perhaps because of the processes in place. We have the requirement that personnel fill a certain amount of billets, in the execution of Congressionally Mandated Funds, using allocated and non-allocated resources to execute the mission and responsibilites as engendered by our service requirements. It matters not whether folks are 'more deserving', 'more capable', 'more whatever' when you're looking at the military as a whole. The service will continue, and people will volunteer and do their best to carry on the mission despite their forthcomings, weaknesses, misgivings, or misfortunes. It will create opportunities for people to execute heroic actions, some of which have been told and they've been awarded appropriately. How many more medal of honor awardees would there be if their story had been captured and told, but there were none left to document or report their actions in the face of overwhelming odds. I think the view that you're saying other people that are unqualified for the position are being selected because of their time and the system is incomplete. Show me the officer capable of executing all their requirements without the support and capabilities of their subordinates. The best officers/leaders bring out the best in their subordinates, because they are focused on the development, care, and issues that prevent their subordinates from executing their duties and the mission. The least qualified officer is still qualified to carry on that responsibility to the best of their ability. Sure, there will be others that are better, more capable, more effective, but no less responsible for the duties of their position/rank/job/title. Rarely have I served in a billet that I was perfectly trained for, to perfectly execute, and rest upon the laurels of being the best promotion opportunity ever to sit the board for selection to the next rank.<br /><br />So, if you think you're better qualified to be higher rank sooner, more power to you. I'm humbled by the opportunity to serve, and grateful for all those that take on the call to service to provide what small effort they can, to perpetuate and make better the finest all volunteer fighting force this world has yet seen, the United States Military. How many other countries can say that their military service is entirely volunteer, emminently adaptable, and capable of executing the mission to the last person still able to muster some small level of gumption to resist the enemy and achieve the mission, even at the risk of the ultimate sacrifice? The military will outlast us all, and it is my hope it is still populated by those willing to take on the mission and do their best to continue to protect this incredible experiment we call the United States of America. <div class="pta-link-card answers-template-image type-default"> <div class="pta-link-card-picture"> <img src="https://d26horl2n8pviu.cloudfront.net/link_data_pictures/images/000/091/644/qrc/20px-Cscr-featured.svg.png?1470783312"> </div> <div class="pta-link-card-content"> <p class="pta-link-card-title"> <a target="blank" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_S._Grant">Ulysses S. Grant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</a> </p> <p class="pta-link-card-description">Ulysses S. Grant (born Hiram Ulysses Grant; April 27, 1822 – July 23, 1885) was the 18th President of the United States (1869–77). As Commanding General of the United States Army (1864–69), Grant worked closely with President Abraham Lincoln to lead the Union Army to victory over the Confederacy in the American Civil War. He implemented Congressional Reconstruction, often at odds with Lincoln&#39;s successor, Andrew Johnson. Twice elected...</p> </div> <div class="clearfix"></div> </div> LCDR Private RallyPoint Member Tue, 09 Aug 2016 18:55:13 -0400 2016-08-09T18:55:13-04:00 Response by 1LT Roger Soiset made Aug 10 at 2016 8:09 AM https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed?n=1793860&urlhash=1793860 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I was both active duty and active reserve, and saw promotions treated as rewards/punishments in both. Best examples: 1. I was on a review board for enlisted men, and knowing two of the men as troublemakers I voted against their promotions. Both were promoted anyway--theory being if they did not get their "due" this would harm unit cohesion. So reward bad conduct--? This was in the 199th Lt. Inf. Bde. 2. A 1st Lt. pilot in the 1st Cav was up for captain, but had a problem--his battalion CO wanted a Silver Star, and literally ordered his clerk to write up the recommendation for his "heroism" in flying over a contact in Cambodia (the chopper was not hit, and said 1st lieutenant was the pilot). The medal was awarded and the colonel expected all his officers to show up at a ceremony for its presentation. Said pilot refused to attend, and said colonel refused to allow his promotion. So punishment for honorable behavior. <br /><br />My point: promotion based on seniority alone can prevent arbitrary treatment, but does not allow reward for exceptional performance. Yet if it is the only criteria, there must be ways to prevent an undeserving person to be promoted just because he/she has been there long enough. And there needs to be a way to appeal punitive treatment. 1LT Roger Soiset Wed, 10 Aug 2016 08:09:16 -0400 2016-08-10T08:09:16-04:00 Response by Capt Seavy Barefoot made Aug 10 at 2016 8:24 AM https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed?n=1793888&urlhash=1793888 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>i WAS A Flight Rated USAF OFFICER/, NAVIGATOR, I FOUND SEVERAL PROBLEMS WITH MY POSITION WHEN I ARRIVED AT MY SQUADRON/ I BECAME A MIX OF ROUGHLY 100 OTHER OFFICERS, MANY AT THE MAJOR, LC RANK.AND I SPENT ALL MY TIME FLYING A C130 DAY AND NIGHT , NEW OFFICERS ALWAYS FLY THE MOST., . YES I WAS PROMOTED ON TIME UP TO CAPTAIN BUT THE PROBLEMS WERE AS FOLLOWS. IF YOU ARE GOOD , YOU FLY MORE OFTEN AS A NAV. PILOTS REQUEST YOU ARE PUT ON MISSIONS AND DEPLOYMENTS BECAUSE A LEVEL OF TRUST HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED, THEY DONT TRUST JUST ANYONE IN COMBAT AND I CANT BLAME THEM , THEY WANT THE NAV TO BE GOOD ENOUGH TO BACK THEM UP AND . WHEN YOU ARE ON THE DECK AT 100 FEET IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT IN AN UNARMED AIRCRAFT THE NAV BECOMES VERY IMPORTANT AS THE ONLY SET OF EYES MANY TIMES OUTSIDE THE AIRPLANE. IE RADAR. OTHER OFFICERS IN MY POSITION WHO WERE SUB PAR FLEW ONLY ABOUT HALF THE TIME, IT WAS VERY TAXING. I WAS TWICE GROUNDED FOR FLYING TOO MANY HOURS/ THERE ACTUALLY IS A LIMIT, KINDA LIKE THE LIMITS SET ON RESIDENT DOCTORS TODAY.WHEN I MET THE 1LT BOARD I WAS CHANGED TO A REGULAR OFFICER POSITION FROM RESERVE AND TOLD THAT WAS UNUSUAL AND AN HONOR TO BE CHOSEN. DIDNT RAISE MY PAY ONE CENT AND THAT DID NOTHING TO IMPROVE MY MINDSET ON STAYING IN. i WAS AWARDED MEDALS 3 TIMES BEFORE MAKING CAPTAIN ALL WHILE PERFORMING DUTIES RELATED TO COMBAT FLYING. THERE WERE 12 QUALIFICATIONS IN MY SEAT, I HELD ELEVEN FULL TIME, ALL THE TIME. THAT GOT ME A CHECK RIDE IN ONE OR THE OTHER.EVERY MONTH. SO WHAT IS MY POINT IF YOU ARE GOOD AT WHAT YOU DO, GET READY TO BE OVERUSED AND ABUSED. THE GUYS I STARTED WITH WHO STAYED TO TWENTY YEARS FOR THE MOST PART WERE MAJORS, SOME STUCK AT CAPTAIN, AND A COUPLE OF LT COLS. PROMOTIONS ARE TOO SLOW. YOU CANT REQUIRE AND MAINTAIN AN OFFICER LIKE MYSELF TO WORK 12 HOURS A DAY , 6 DAYS A WEEK, FLY, INSTRUCT, EVALUATE, AND MAINTAIN EFFICIENCY ALL WHILE SECURING SERVICE RELATED SCHOOLS AND A MASTERS DEGREE TO BE CONSIDERED AT THE MAJOR BOARD WHICH YOU WAIT 6 OR MORE YEARS TO MEET AFTER CAPTAIN. YOUR SKILLS AND LEADERSHIP SHOULD GO A LONG WAY IN UPWARD MOBILITY, BUT I FOUND THAT NOT TO BE THE CASE. WHILE FLYING MULTIPLE , LITERALLY HUNDREDS OF SPECIAL OPS TRAINING MISSIONS NIGHT AFTER NIGHT. , THE BIGGEST CONVERSATION OVER THE HEADSET FROM PILOTS AND NAVS WAS" WHEN I GET OUT OF HERE I AM GOING TO DIRECT MY PATH , NOT HAVE SOMEONE ELSE DO IT FOR ME." THE BEST PILOTS I FLEW WITH EXITED AFTER ONE TOUR, NOT TO KNOCK THE GUYS WHO STAYED, JUST SAYIG IF YOU ARE GOOD, YOUR GOOD, AND THAT SKILL WILL TAKE YOU VERY FAR WITH A CIVILIAN CAREER. MY NORMAL DAY STARTED AT 3 IN THE AFTERNOON, FLIGHT PLANNING FOR LOW LEVEL MISSIONS FOR 3 HOURS, BRIEFING THE MISSION, 1 HOUR, PREFLIGHT HALF AN HOUR. FLIGHT TIME 5 TO SIX HOURS, DEBRIEF HALF AND HOUR. NOW REPEAT 6 TO 7 TIMES A WEEK, ITS CALLED BURNOUT. OH AND DONT EVEN MENTIONSL DEPLOYMENTS FOR MONTHS ON END IN THE DESERT OF ANY OTHER PLACE ON THIS EARTH THEY WANT TO BED YOU DOWN AT. WITH THE DEVELOPMENT OF GPS ON AIRCRAFT MY IMPORTANCE OVER TIME WOULD HAVE SEVERELY DIMINISHED HAD i NOT LEFT. WE SEE THAT TODAY WITH DRONES REPLACING THE PILOTS NOW.THE SERVICE HAS NEVER GOTTEN IT RIGHT ON OFFICER RETENTION ESPECIALLY IN MY CAREER FIELD. EVERYONE DESERVES TO KNOW YOU ARE VALUABLE AND YOUR POTENTIAL TO BE RECOGNIZED IS THERE. THE GOOD OL BOY SYSTEM DOESNT WORK VERY WELL UNLESS YOURE ONE OF THE BOYS, I NEVER WAS. I LEFT AFTER 6 YEARS .I HAVE NO REGRETS FOR SERVING BUT WISH THINGS COULD HAVE BEEN BETTER. CONCLUSION, I ENTERED CIVILIAN OCCUPATION , RETIRED AT AGE 42 , OWN MY HOME AND AM LIVING A FULLTIME LIFE WHICH I NEVER HAD ON ACTIVE DUTY. Capt Seavy Barefoot Wed, 10 Aug 2016 08:24:02 -0400 2016-08-10T08:24:02-04:00 Response by CPT Richard Fematt made Aug 10 at 2016 12:06 PM https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-officer-promotions-need-to-be-fixed?n=1794556&urlhash=1794556 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Oh know doubt the promotion system is broke and getting worse promoting unqualified officers who have not done one thing in their careers! I know many 1LT and CPT that were promoted who didn't meet ht/wt, did not pass an APFT, had no leadership skills nor fire an M-16 or 9mm, an embarrassment in uniform and the brunt of jokes of the enlisted and other officers! They have never been deployed nor held a position of Command yet time and again they get promoted! I wrote to the board and ask for a reason I was not promoted to Major but they do not have to give a reason nor did the promotion board ever respond! Damn good qualified officers especially Mustangers are been weeded out, the brunt of Army Leadership with combat tested skills are being replaced with yes men/women PC puppets with no combat experience nor leadership skills!!! CPT Richard Fematt Wed, 10 Aug 2016 12:06:18 -0400 2016-08-10T12:06:18-04:00 2016-06-22T11:59:41-04:00