Do Officers/NCO's get to pick and choose which regs they enforce?

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 08:03:38 -0500

I have seen this in a few threads where Military Leaders are selectively enforcing reg based on if they agree with them or not.

RP, what are your thoughts as a group?

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Mar 4 at 2015 8:04 AM

SGT Jim Z. — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 08:04:19 -0500

They should enforce them all.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 8:40 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 08:40:01 -0500

Its called prosecutorial discretion.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 8:44 AM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 08:44:36 -0500

Never want to say categorically that one group of people does one thing or another but I have seen instances where members of the above groups selectively enforce standards. Doing so is one the of the surest ways to erode your own authority, influence and credibility.

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Mar 4 at 2015 9:32 AM

CPT Zachary Brooks — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 09:32:47 -0500

Don't many of the standards have the ability to be adjusted by Commanders? Commander's Discretion I think it's called.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 9:37 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 09:37:57 -0500

We have a lot of AFI, Regs, TOs to remember and we will make mistakes along they way, but, they should all be enforced even if we don't agree with them. It's along the lines of if you don't agree with your leadership you tactfully explain your side, salute smartly and make it seem to your subordinates that you are on the same page as your leaders. If you start doubting leaders and regs, your people will doubt you.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Mar 4 at 2015 9:41 AM

SGT Bryon Sergent — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 09:41:39 -0500

Just happens probably to be the ones that they are versed on. The ones that where harped on the most when they where Jr enlisted. I try to be fair and impartial to all. If I don't know, or called on something I look it up and then go forward with what ever is happening.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 10:11 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 10:11:19 -0500

Do they get to? No. Do they? For the most part, yes.

I would be lying if I said I enforced every regulation and/or policy to the letter. First of all, I don't KNOW every single regulation/policy. That aside, I know that there have been times in the past where certain small things were overlooked.

What I must do to be better, and what we all must do really, is to understand that compassion for others, and the potential for compromise to our integrity are not exclusively tied together. We can have compassion for others while still maintain our integrity and enforcing the standards.

Response by CPT Andrew Reed made Mar 4 at 2015 10:14 AM

CPT Andrew Reed — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 10:14:44 -0500

Your question is worded in absolutes. Can they choose which regulations to enforce? Yes, they can and they do. Why are they able to do this? I believe that authority and responsibility is delegated down the chain because trust exists between leaders and subordinates. Brigade commanders trust that their battalion commanders will do what is right.

But what is right? Is it what's best for the Soldier? The unit? The Army? The nation? Sometimes these priorities compete. It's not always a black and white decision.

Coming back to your question, I think you're really asking weather or not they 'should' selectively enforce regulations. The Army is an organization with many, many rules. Each level of command, all the way down to that brand new team leader, add to these rules. Of course we can't enforce everything all the time. Take a look at AR 350-1, and I doubt you will find many units that are in 100% compliance. We have to prioritize, which is another way of saying ignore some things so we can focus on the important things. The recent SSI document on lying called this ethical fading.

Is this the right way of doing business? I'm struggling to answer the question myself.

COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM Would love to hear your take on this sir.

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Mar 4 at 2015 10:34 AM

SPC(P) Jay Heenan — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 10:34:38 -0500

Yes, I have seen the use of 'commanders discretion' often or how 'they interpret' said regulation. I haven't seen this because they don't agree with a regulation, just how they use the regulation in regards to the treatment of their SM's.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 10:40 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 10:40:49 -0500

They should not. Unfortunately, it's been my experience on this issue that interpretation of a particular regulation is the bigger issue. I have seen both Officers and NCOs argue about the "spirit" in which a reg was written, or the "unwritten meaning" behind the way a reg is written.

There either needs to be a streamlining of our regs, or there needs to be more Officer and NCO education on how to interpret and enforce regs. Just my opinion.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 11:04 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 11:04:18 -0500

I don't know if "get to" is the right way to phrase it, but yes, leaders do choose what their "hot buttons" are and make a more concerted effort to enforce those. I think that that most of the time it is situational dependent. By that I mean as a leader you have to look at the totality of the circumstance and the second and third order effects as you enforce rules and regulations. There has to be a certain latitude of discretion, or pretty soon regulation enforcement will affect mission accomplishment. For example, as a law enforcement officer, I did not stop every motorist who was speeding - even though 1mph over the speed limit is in fact, violating a regulation. It would not be prudent or an effective use of time to enforce the regulation that strictly.

Response by SrA Matthew Knight made Mar 4 at 2015 11:51 AM

SrA Matthew Knight — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 11:51:31 -0500

Technically no. The regs are the regs.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 12:45 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 12:45:30 -0500

So here is the maybe it's all the creeds. The Army Officer's creed omits the part about obeying all orders. Here is why Officers are premitted to make decisions to bend, break, or modify orders when it is in the best interest of the Army. So what that means is Commissioned Officers have limited authority to modify if situation or time does not permit gaining approval from the authority that gave the order. However, Officers should not take this as a license to make changes as they see fit; because their decisions are under scrutiny and the burden of proof for valid reason for deviation is high. Judgement is critical and that is why perception is looked at; knowing and understanding a Commanders Intent is also important. For Officers "I was following orders" is not a valid excuses for not making exception when the situation dictates one is need. Good thought process does it acomplish the mission, does it save lives and will I go to jail. Will I go to jail is overcome if Mission and Lives are protected. Hence the LT with a 19 year sentence for ordering the death of two Afghans.

How NCO figure into this: NCOs are leaders of enlisted and advisors of Officers. They are protected to an extant but they have a role in the best interest of the Mission, SMs, and Legal authority to enforce laws and orders; but critical is advising when there needs to be a change. Officers can deligate authority through ROE, contingency, or intent to instruct changes.

Policy letters play a part in this.

If you are a Junior Officer avoid modifying as much as possible and if you do not feel comfortable telling a O5 or O6 why you did it don't do it. That being said ignoring the standard is willful active obedience, not enforcing the standard is neglent passive disobedience. Both are flat wrong.

Response by SMSgt Bryan Raines made Mar 4 at 2015 2:11 PM

SMSgt Bryan Raines — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 14:11:17 -0500

Yes Officers/NCO's do choose to a certain extent which regs to enforce. Anyone who believes otherwise is naive or blind. This does not make it right in most circumstances but, yes there is always a "but", in some circumstances for morale and welfare purposes some regs are not, nor should they be, enforced. Again, it depends on the circumstances and the officer or NCO should be prepared to defend their actions accordingly. One example I am personally aware of is dress and appearance regs not being enforced for certain reasons of morale in garrison. example Civvies Fridays where personnel could "buy" a pass to wear civilian clothing on duty the money going to raise funds for various charitable reasons. No harm no foul.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 2:16 PM

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 14:16:02 -0500

Sometimes I think the AFI leaves it to the supervisor to decide what he/she deems as "tasteful" or "natural" . Other regs are more cut and dry. So some people don't care, while others may have a more strict idea of what is tasteful. If that makes sense.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 2:30 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 14:30:34 -0500

No, we shouldn't be able to pick and choose. *IF* there is an issue with a reg, then it needs to be addressed up the chain; then the reg can be fixed, clarified, or an exception to policy can be drafted for certain situations.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Mar 4 at 2015 2:30 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 14:30:41 -0500

There has to be some level of "enforcement discretion" at all levels, however in general, no.

Officers make policy, Senior NCOs interpret policy, NCOs enforce policy, and junior enlisted carry out policy.

We don't just enforce the regs we like. We may allow a certain level of tolerance based on the situation, like with weapons maintenance "dirt is acceptable, rust is not" but that is a far cry different than intentionally ignoring policy.

Additionally, being ignorant of policy is a different matter. Once aware of policy, one should endeavor to adhere to it, unless there an operational risk in doing so.

All that said, it's about priorities. I knew one CO who would hammer folks for not wearing HMMWV seat belts, but not worry about ranks on utilities in the field (everyone knows who everyone else is).

Response by SGT William Howell made Mar 4 at 2015 4:24 PM

SGT William Howell — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 16:24:15 -0500

If you told me to do an on the spot uniform correction on a female I would tell you that you lost your mind. Not a clue as to what they can and can not do.

Now have a soldier walk by me with a mushroom head beret on and I'll be on them like a dog on a ball.

Response by SGT Karolyn Smith made Mar 4 at 2015 5:32 PM

SGT Karolyn Smith — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 17:32:02 -0500

Are you talking about Garrison or deployment

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 5:56 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 17:56:46 -0500

Leaders do not get to pick and choose what Reg's to enforce, however they still do. Most of the time it seems like they do it to avoid confrontation.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 10:58 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 22:58:59 -0500

They don't get to, as in permission, but it is common to be light handed in some of the regs, I'm sure. An example would be off duty shaving.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 4 at 2015 11:30 PM

COL Charles Williams — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 23:30:42 -0500

I would hope not, but I suspect your question is based on your experiences. Our job, is to enforce all of the standards.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 12:57 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Mar 2015 12:57:39 -0400

Yes.

IAW AR 623-3 Para 2-12: The rater will-Provide a copy of their support form, along with the senior rater's support form, to the rated Soldier at the beginning of the rating period.

I've yet to see this happen. We're required to do this, but it never happens.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 5:23 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Mar 2015 17:23:22 -0400

No. You can add to a regulation but you may not take away from a regulation

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2015 6:10 AM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Dec 2015 06:10:21 -0500

No one should be able to "pick and choose" which AFI they follow. Then again, I constantly hear that we now have "instructions" as opposed to "regulations" which apparently makes it okay to deviate from them. Honestly, I think this is why the AF has implemented the new Tier system in the AFI in order to mandate waiver authority.

Response by SSG George Holtje made Oct 22 at 2019 12:09 AM

SSG George Holtje — Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:09:01 -0400

I was told many times we don’t pick and choose the standards we follow. I was often told this by someone picking and choosing the standards they were going to enforce.(improperly done PMCS is ok, uniform has to be parade ready every morning)
Just remember if we halt movement for every standard, how much is going to get done? (At ease corporal, he’ll take off his headgear after he sets down the 75lbs box.)

Response by LTC Charles Patchin made Feb 25 at 2020 9:21 AM

LTC Charles Patchin — Tue, 25 Feb 2020 09:21:33 -0500

Every person in uniform, except initial trainees, have some discretion as to what regulation to enforce or not and to what degree. Sometimes we get away with it and are well thought of and other times we eat up everyone for the smallest violation and are not well thought of. Depending on our position in the food chain, we observe and react.

Response by SFC Byron Perry made Jun 22 at 2020 12:32 AM

SFC Byron Perry — Mon, 22 Jun 2020 00:32:20 -0400

Not if he/she is a good leader.

Response by MAJ Michael McComber made Aug 27 at 2020 4:50 PM

MAJ Michael McComber — Thu, 27 Aug 2020 16:50:05 -0400

If there are so many enforcement opportunities out there, you have to get help! So it just LOOKS like you're being "selective".

Response by SFC Charles Hough made Mar 27 at 2021 9:40 AM

SFC Charles Hough — Sat, 27 Mar 2021 09:40:02 -0400

Choosing which to pick is obviously wrong; as a leader we should enforce them all and follow them as well. You may find some leaders who tend to focus on one or two, I believe that leader hasn’t read or learned any on their own and are just imitating those before them. A true leader will take the time to learn right from wrong and correct them without hesitation and except corrections on themselves just as openly.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 27 at 2021 9:52 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Sat, 27 Mar 2021 09:52:57 -0400

Of course they do.
For decades, oral and anal sex were a violation of the UCMJ.
Did you hear about the hundreds of thousands of blowjob/cunnilingus related Courts Martial? No? Because every ignored that article because it was silly...

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Mar 27 at 2021 10:41 AM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Sat, 27 Mar 2021 10:41:14 -0400

Yes. It’s a matter of emphasis depending on the mission and operational situation. As a safety officer, I made visits to flight line, shops and warehouses on all shifts. I learned that leadership put less emphasis on appearance, customs, and courtesies on midnight shift. Sometimes strict compliance with procedures and tech data was less after normal duty hours. Most night shift supervisors were junior NCOs. Despite all that, aircraft were repaired and readied for the next launch. Cargo was prepared and loaded safely. Just different emphasis by supervision.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2021 10:54 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 27 Mar 2021 10:54:02 -0400

I don't think it's possible for any individual to enforse every regulation there is. There are just too many of them and occasionally they are contradictory.