Do Pathfinder wings have to be flush with the pocket on ASUs?

2016-01-15T17:54:06-05:00

I work as a Technician in the NG. I manage the DA photo lab in the J6 Visual Information office. Today while in the lab talking to the photographer an E-7 walked in for a photo. I have spent many hours in the photo lab and consider myself a DA Pam 670-1 expert. When I told this E-7 his Pathfinder wings were not flush below his pocket he said that "Active Pathfinders cant/tilt their wings". I searched for hours on traditions and looked in the DA Pam. His photo has already been uploaded but I'm asking for my sanity because I've been searching for hours now.

Response by SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL made Jan 15 at 2016 5:58 PM

2016-01-15T17:58:41-05:00

1SG Private RallyPoint Member I will do some research. Who knows? Professionalism is always at the forefront when taking a DA Photo. I have always been taught (centered) and dress-right-dress according to AR-670-1.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2016 6:52 PM

2016-01-15T18:52:40-05:00

I'm not sure what you/he mean by tilt the "wings." I know I wear mine with the torch as close to straight up and down as I can. The pathfinder badge is hard to wear because it is not symmetrical. But I can pretty much guarantee that if he has to caveat it with "active pathfinders" do something, he is probably wrong.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2016 6:56 PM

2016-01-15T18:56:50-05:00

The regulation does not specify that. Ultimately, it is up to the soldier to make sure the official photo is in regulation. If this SFC wants to go against the guidance..well he may have to live with any consequences.

Response by SSG(P) Timme Jones made Jan 15 at 2016 7:14 PM

2016-01-15T19:14:31-05:00

I was in the 5-101st Pathfinders. Yes, if you are in an active pathfinder company we tilt our wibgs

Response by 1SG Todd Sullivan made Jan 15 at 2016 8:13 PM

2016-01-15T20:13:26-05:00

They can tilt them if they want.. But if you want to get promoted maybe make you uniform look more professional, we tilted ours as well, and even folded corners back when seeing them on BDU's/DCU's I would tell my NCO's "go for what you know"..... But it's a selection process and you photo says A LOT about you. Just food for thought.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2016 8:17 PM

2016-01-15T20:17:01-05:00

Bogus. My torch is straight per 670-1, and I'm an E7 as well.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2016 8:55 PM

2016-01-15T20:55:49-05:00

1SG Private RallyPoint Member, I looked up the regs for uniforms, medals, and badges. Here's the link:

http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/p670_1.pdf

Response by MAJ Javier Rivera made Jan 15 at 2016 9:06 PM

2016-01-15T21:06:46-05:00

DA Pam 670-1 doesn't specify the badge needs to be nevertheless, for an offical photo you want to take the guess work away from the board members. Let him deal with it!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2016 2:43 AM

2016-01-16T02:43:33-05:00

Not exactly sure what you mean by tilt... Here is my torch and it's the only way I've ever known/seen it worn? Can someone clarify?

Response by SFC Donald Neal made Jan 16 at 2016 3:03 AM

2016-01-16T03:03:44-05:00

I do not remember doing any cant/tilt. Was he taking the photo for some vanity thing or for an official photo? Looking at AR 670-1, DA Pam 670-1, I was unable to find the exception to tilt/cant his pathfinder badge, but if urban legend suggests an exception to policy, then by all means let him take the photo with a backwards garrison cap and pro-mask inserts taped to his face.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2016 4:56 AM

2016-01-16T04:56:00-05:00

The can/tilt comes from the way the original pathfinder patch was designed. Although there are some individuals who wear them canted on their ASUs, if I were taking a DA photo, I would definitely have it flushed, as is prescribed.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2016 3:46 PM

2016-01-16T15:46:58-05:00

The idea about tilting the badge reminds me of when I graduated from Ranger School. The RI told us that we were "authorized" to sew our tabs on with white thread because we were a winter class. But I'm pretty sure that while that was true from a Ranger Department tradition perspective, it wouldn't fly on an official photo from an AR 670-1 perspective. I suspect that any variation on how the pathfinder badge is worn based upon unit assignment would fall into the same category of tradition vs correct by the AR.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2016 10:01 AM

2016-01-18T10:01:23-05:00

Many people base their decision to cant their torch off of the cover of Pathfinder Ops itself. I'm not saying that it is right, and I personally do not do so, however as 670-1 does not specifically say how to wear the torch this may be their basis for argument.
I have also heard that it is reserved for individuals who have actually "performed" their duties as a Pathfinder as opposed to simply earning the badge and skill set although this clearly this can't be referenced anywhere, simply tradition perhaps.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2016 1:31 PM

2016-02-12T13:31:23-05:00

Wait, he really told you that an "active pathfinder" can cant or tilt their wings? This SFC needs to go back and look at AR 670-1 since the answer is no. Notice my torch in my picture? Is it canted? No. Besides, if you really want to skin the cat, the only "active pathfinder" is one who is actually serving in a pathfinder company, no one who is just in the coded position in some unit.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2017 2:05 PM

2017-02-16T14:05:12-05:00

It's been a year since I posted this question on here. Here is a photo reference.

Response by MAJ Luca Luca made May 8 at 2017 8:04 PM

2017-05-08T20:04:46-04:00

Not according to regs.

Response by SSG James Dennis made May 8 at 2017 11:48 PM

2017-05-08T23:48:40-04:00

It is my understanding that the "tilted" pathfinder badge originated during WW II. The pathfinders who spearheaded the Normandy Invasion wore their torch on their left sleeve tilted at an angle (dress uniform). having served in the 101st Pathfinder Company/Platoon/Detachment during the mid to late 80's, we wore our torches tilted at an angle on our Greens/Blues. After leaving an active duty pathfinder unit (DS Duty) I continued to tilt my torch (much to the chagrin of a few LTs who attempted to correct me). Concerning DA photos, bets to level it if you want to get promoted. Back in the day, all members of pathfinder units were on jump status and wore the maroon beret. Ever seen a paratrooper, pathfinder, ranger, SF, etc. wear there beret according to AR 670-1 (level across the forehead, unit flash and insignia above the left eye)? Me neither-lol.

Response by MAJ Tom McCuin made May 9 at 2017 10:02 AM

2017-05-09T10:02:41-04:00

"Tradition" is meaningless when taking a DA photo. You follow the regulations, to the letter. That is the whole point of the photo. Active paratroopers don't wear their jump boots and backgrounds in their DA photos, so why should an "active pathfinder" wear his badge in a manner not prescribed by the reg?

Response by SGT Chester Beedle made May 11 at 2017 5:07 AM

2017-05-11T05:07:34-04:00

The pictures in DA PAM 670-1 show it to be straight up and down, not canted. There could be some unit variance based on tradition, official or not, but if so you wouldn't wear it that way on your DA photo. Just like you won't wear your Stetson or spurs if your cav.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jun 28 at 2017 3:32 PM

2017-06-28T15:32:38-04:00

Tilt isn't authorized. Fortunately people who pass bum scoop tend to self select for getting passed over..

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2017 11:06 AM

2017-06-29T11:06:33-04:00

Several respondents have stated that the reg doesn't specify to tilt or not, but I call shenanigans. There is a picture of the badge in DA PAM 670-1 which shows the torch upright, so the correct COA is to wear the badge on the uniform as it is pictured in the DA PAM.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2017 12:54 PM

2017-06-29T12:54:42-04:00

When I got pinned the cadre put a tilt on it. I think its more along the lines of how soldiers in airborne units wear their berets all slanted. It's an attitude or persona they want to express. No it's not in the regs. No don't do it for a DA photo if you intend on getting promoted.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2017 9:39 PM

2017-06-29T21:39:08-04:00

I consider myself an expert on this subject since I am the President of The National Pathfinder Association. The original torch worn on the sleeve by WWII a Pathfinders was canted to resemble flight or descent from the sky. When the larger cloth torch was designed Pathfinders in the 50s and 60s wore the cloth torch on the pocket of their duty uniforms canted in the traditional way. In the 60s it was still worn on the sleeve of the dress greens canted. In AR 672-5-1 (awards)dated May 1961
Doesn't specify if it should be canted but we know it was canted because it was still a cloth torch. When the badge came out in 1968 the regulation (AR 672-5-1 change 19 dated 20 June 1969) doesn't specify in writing if it should be straight or canted but the 9 photos clearly show it straight. 166.1 d. States; for purposes of centering the Pathfinder the center of mass of the entire badge should be considered not the vertical axis of the torch.
Having said all this, The NPA is a strong proponent of the torch being canted in the original style without regard to if you served in a Pathfinder unit or not.

current DA Pam 670-1 doesn't specify in writing if it should be straight or canted but the 2 photos show them straight.

Eric H.

Response by 1SG Bryan Greaves made Jun 30 at 2017 2:22 AM

2017-06-30T02:22:16-04:00

I always wore mine at a slight angle. As an Army Reservist I served nearly four years in a Pathfinder platoon, so we pretty much had no issues in what we wore.

When I enlisted on Active Duty I had to come in as a PFC. Walking around Fort Bragg in '86 - a PFC with Jump Wings and the coveted Torch - I tended to get stopped by senior NCOs who wanted to know just how the hell a PFC got to Pathfinder school. If I thought the NCO had a sense of humor I'd reply that I thought it looked damned cool in the Clothing Sales store!

That was back when the Pathfinder course was at Ft Benning, and the only Soldiers who could attend needed a reason to be in the course. Had to be Jump qualified, on Jump status, in a combat MOS.

Unlike today where pretty much anybody can go through ... regardless of MOS, gender, unit of assignment. For crying out loud, attendees don't even have to be Airborne qualified. Sad.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2017 10:12 AM

2017-06-30T10:12:43-04:00

DA PAM 670–1 dated 1 July 2015, page 215, Figure 22-46. The "center line" of the torch is plumb to the top of the pocket.

Response by CPT Nick Bryan made Oct 29 at 2017 4:58 PM

2017-10-29T16:58:42-04:00

Sounds like a Unit thing and it's fine for unit functions "Balls, Dining In, etc..." but for a DA Photo, going to a board outside of your unit, or school house you should have them strait. I'm a CAV guy and wearing my Stetson and Spurs is cool for unit events or if I'm in my units footprint. But I wouldn't wear my Stetson in my DA photo.....

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 30 at 2017 1:42 AM

2017-10-30T01:42:47-04:00

This is wrong. The Pathfinder badge, originally, was sewn on the lower forearm portion of the service coat/jacket/top during World War II. The badges design and placement created the canted appearance, and as the development of new uniforms progressed, the Torch was instinctually and traditionally canted.

After the modern more modern uniform policies took hold, the badge's flame top was portrayed level with the wing tip, and through the illustration, the "modern" positioning and placement became standard practice.

Now, with that being said, I was in the 101st Pathfinder Company at Campbell from 2010-2015. Our historic practice was to cant the Torch to signify you were actually in a Pathfinder Company, and not just Pathfinder qualified.

We treated it in the same way as Regiment treats their Scroll. There's the tab, which means you're Ranger qualified, and then there's the scroll which means you're actually in a Ranger Regiment.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2017 9:56 AM

2017-11-08T09:56:48-05:00

I was an PFDR instructor for many years and yes it’s a tradition that PFDRs in company’s designated to utilize that skill set that the wings are worn tilted, however 670-1 doesn’t clarify if this is authorized but straiting the badge aligned with other badges presents a neater appearance! So shooters prefrence I guess but I wore mine aligned with other badges not canted and was selected for promotion so...

Response by SGT Joseph Mitcham made Mar 5 at 2018 7:00 PM

2018-03-05T19:00:00-05:00

My understanding is that the tilt is like redlegs wearing red bowtie, red suspenders, and red socks something for special events to show a status but not in DA photos

Response by MSG Johnathan Mathes made Mar 5 at 2018 7:23 PM

2018-03-05T19:23:58-05:00

Here is what everyone needs to remember.. your presenting a snapshot of yourself to members of a board... 99 percent of them aren’t pathfinders.. they aren’t grading you off of a tradition.. they are grading you based off of what they see and can relate to 670-1... .. if it isn’t defined there .. then they ll go back to is it straight is it professional looking... it’s ok to have swagger.. but a time and a place

Response by SGT David Cabral made Mar 6 at 2018 6:44 AM

2018-03-06T06:44:28-05:00

The Torch should be straight top to bottom

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2018 7:06 AM

2018-03-06T07:06:13-05:00

The board member who gets your packet may not know about such things, but he/she will have the baseline knowledge, which is the publication. (I'm an Engineer, but my boards are staffed by MPs and Chem folks).....stick to the AR and DA-PAM. Tilt your wings after your photo if that's what blows your hair back and gets you the ladies.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Mar 6 at 2018 11:35 AM

2018-03-06T11:35:06-05:00

When I was in (Dark Ages- and yes I have a Dino Rider bar) we wore them tilted. Years ago at a convention I ran into some of my younger brothers who were still active. They told me the regs had changed and the tilt was no longer authorized.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2018 6:18 PM

2018-03-06T18:18:03-05:00

Someone clue me in on what were talking about here please

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2018 7:02 PM

2018-03-06T19:02:12-05:00

First of all, it's AR 670-1 (Army Regulation)....
Where do these authors come from, and do they run their stories through a knowledgeable military mind before they spew a story???

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2018 7:06 PM

2018-03-06T19:06:30-05:00

Well, crap if I'm wrong.
When did AR 670-1 become DA Pam 670-1?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2018 7:50 PM

2018-03-06T19:50:27-05:00

I'm not a pathfinder but if I were, it would be straight on my ASUs and tilted as all be damned on my combat uniform.

Response by PVT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2018 10:21 PM

2018-03-06T22:21:55-05:00

I for one have never been keen on displaying my ERB on my uniform. As for th dress uniform, there’s an AR that covers that. Not sure why it’s even a discussion...

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2018 11:16 PM

2018-03-06T23:16:28-05:00

I would let them. I wouldn't do it for a DA Photo. You should only wear your award by the reg. If you want to stand out by wearing your device wrong then so be it. I have seen soldiers wear some stuff way out of reg but the DA photo is not the place for it.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2018 11:39 PM

2018-03-06T23:39:55-05:00

If I was on a promotion or selection board and it came down to how the pathfinder badge was worn. I’m picking the guy/gal with the smoke plume parallel to the pocket, which makes the torch portion tilted. It just doesn’t make sense to me that the smoke would dip down below the torch. I’ve been wearing it yelled for over 25 years, since I was a SGT. So if I’m on that Soldier’s board- active or not he is a go!

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 7 at 2018 1:03 AM

2018-03-07T01:03:39-05:00

Oh the good ole days, how I miss them. No one knows what to say to a pilot with a torch. Just funny looks.....

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 7 at 2018 7:39 AM

2018-03-07T07:39:41-05:00

Anything that starts with “active duty is entitled to do it differently” is bogus. Thought the recent spat of combat tours over the last handful of years had ended this kind of crap.

Response by SGT Carl Brown Jr. made Mar 7 at 2018 10:40 AM

2018-03-07T10:40:21-05:00

I've seen people get promoted with oak leaf clusters on their GCM. I think he'll be fine

Response by SFC Kaz Karwowski made Mar 7 at 2018 12:13 PM

2018-03-07T12:13:11-05:00

I wore mine flush with the pocket, 1/8” down from the seam...like the regulation states.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Mar 7 at 2018 5:02 PM

2018-03-07T17:02:55-05:00

How much time, effort and money are wasted on this?

Response by LTC Charles Patchin made Mar 7 at 2018 6:16 PM

2018-03-07T18:16:51-05:00

When we went from wearing the torch on the sleeve, tilted, as required, the metal badge was worn straight with the pocket flap top and to the right as viewed from the front of jump wings.

Response by CSM David Draughn made Mar 7 at 2018 9:42 PM

2018-03-07T21:42:49-05:00

I’ve heard of this practice;!however Pathfinders once wore the torch on their left sleeves. I never saw the wings tilted in AR 670-1. Active Duty means nothing in terms of how one wears a badge. Ours is, after all “One Army.” Let the Sergeant wear his torch as he wants. I sat on a promotion board for MSG on the Infantry/Special Forces panel. We used magnifying devices to look at one’s uniform. Yes, how one wears the uniform matters on those boards.

Response by CSM David Draughn made Mar 7 at 2018 9:44 PM

2018-03-07T21:44:42-05:00

After a bit of reading, I was mistaken about the “old” badges’ wear location. In was on the uniform shirt’s pocket.

Response by Kevin Dalton made Mar 8 at 2018 12:02 AM

2018-03-08T00:02:52-05:00

I’m sure a C.O would know the answer

Response by LTC Jon Ring made Mar 8 at 2018 5:54 PM

2018-03-08T17:54:59-05:00

Should be canted - level the flame as though advancing and it will be correct. All other answers are wrong and probably submitted by dirty, nasty legs!

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made Mar 10 at 2018 6:37 AM

2018-03-10T06:37:29-05:00

I never had any pathfinders in my company nor had I earned the badge myself, If the soldier was in my company they would wear them according to 670-1 or remove them. I did not listen to people tell me what so and so said or tradition says. I looked at the book, and if there was still some question in my mind, I talked with the CSM. Then I enforced regulations, regardless of rank.

Response by LCDR Ray Trygstad made Mar 10 at 2018 1:58 PM

2018-03-10T13:58:28-05:00

My father-in-law was an 8th Air Force “mickey” (radar navigator) in WWII. Mickeys were the other folks to also wear this badge. His was worn on the sleeve of his greens and the torch is definitely vertical.

Response by CSM Rick Cassel made Mar 10 at 2018 7:17 PM

2018-03-10T19:17:00-05:00

There is but one standard it does not change per the component you are currently serving be it Active, Reserve, or Guard. Centralized Promotion boards look numerous items when selecting personnel for promotion. Is one canted badge going to stop this SFC from being selected for promotion, probably not. However, a board will notice and make deductions due to the discrepancy on his uniform.

Response by PFC Phillip Lord made Mar 11 at 2018 8:58 PM

2018-03-11T20:58:44-04:00

i cant help at all but somehow it looks correct canted/tilted and off straight up and down.

Response by SGT Randall Spence made Mar 20 at 2018 10:48 PM

2018-03-20T22:48:35-04:00

I went through the Pathfinder school back in '77, the instructors all had theirs straight on their fatigues and when we were pinned, they were put on straight.

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2018-04-09T01:32:37-04:00

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Response by CSM Greg Clancy made Apr 30 at 2018 8:58 AM

2018-04-30T08:58:33-04:00

I concur with Top. A DA Photo is NOT the place to prove a point, especially if being considered for promotion. DA Photos are what tell the promotion board members what the Soldier looks like and how they wear their uniform. It says a lot and anything that does not look right or IAW AR 670-1 will be suspect. There is not time for board members to research right or wrong on boards. Go with what you know and wear your uniform IAW the regs and you will never go wrong. Remember image is everything, what people see is what they believe, they form an opinion instantly. Perception is reality, if board members perceive something to be wrong on a photo they will go with that feeling.

Response by SSG Robert Peterson made Apr 13 at 2019 11:35 AM

2019-04-13T11:35:46-04:00

I wore them straight, I made sure the PF's in my unit were them straight! Have a little pride guys! Jeez

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Sep 16 at 2019 12:44 PM

2019-09-16T12:44:30-04:00

I'm satisfied with my EGA.