Do prior enlisted service members make better officers?

CMSgt Mark Schubert — Mon, 10 Mar 2014 11:03:00 -0400

I've talked with many officers throughout my career. I've noticed most have the ability to effectively lead and guide enlisted members. Most (not all) of the officers I've seen who are truly among the best are prior enlisted. Do you think being enlisted contributes to the leadership effectiveness of officers?

Response by SGT James Elphick made Mar 10 at 2014 11:15 AM

SGT James Elphick — Mon, 10 Mar 2014 11:15:06 -0400

I would have to say that in general, yes they do. I was lucky and always had good PL's but 2 out of the 4 during my time were prior enlisted and they were superb. I think they have a better understanding of the military machine that allows them to more effectively handle the various situations that arise.

Response by 1stLt Steve Maynard made Mar 10 at 2014 10:10 PM

1stLt Steve Maynard — Mon, 10 Mar 2014 22:10:39 -0400

It has not been my experience that prior service officers are better or worse than other officers. Enlisted experience, particularly single term, junior enlisted service, can help a junior officer in the early career. As officer gain experience and rise through the ranks, that enlisted experience becomes less relevant or useful. Selfish leaders, whether prior service or not, are toxic to any unit. Good, engaged, leaders create effective teams focused on mission accomplishment and leader development, at all levels.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2014 10:33 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Mar 2014 22:33:08 -0400

I will give a slight yes. MOST of the really squared away officers were prior enlisted. However, there are those that were a disgruntled SPC/SGT that seems to hate all NCOs. I don't know what happened in their prior years. I can usually spot the ones that were enlisted at one point. However, I have also been pleasantly shocked by some that weren't. To me, the prior enlisted seem to be more in tune with military life in general. Sometimes, though, they like to think they are still a NCO and will nose into NCO business. Typically a light-hearted reminder will steer them back. One of my favorite officers was a 2LT that was totally clueless. He realized he had no clue and looked for help wherever he could find it. He truly cared for us Soldiers and allowed the NCOs to mold him. By the time I left, he was doing quite well.

I also had the honor of being a driver for GO/FOs. I was pleasantly surprised by the vast majority of them. Many of them went through the service academies, yet seemed in tune to what was going on. I think it is more of an individual skillset rather than how they started off. Those that were prior enlisted do seem more in understanding, though.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2014 10:50 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Mar 2014 22:50:14 -0400

The biggest Micro Managers I have ever seen were Prior NCOs who knew how to do your job better than you did.

Response by SPC David Wyckoff made Mar 11 at 2014 9:49 AM

SPC David Wyckoff — Tue, 11 Mar 2014 09:49:50 -0400

I think there would pros and cons to being a prior enlisted officer. As to whether they make better officers, I can't really say yet.

I know that a friend of mine who's a firearms instructor has said many times he would rather have someone that knows nothing about firearms on his range than someone who has had firearms training. His reasoning is that the person who knows nothing has a propensity to be more open to his type of training. A person with prior training has to, many times, unlearn bad habits before they're able to learn new good habits.
Likewise, this could be a challenge for officers who are prior enlisted. The job of an officer isn't the same as the job of an NCO. So coming at their new reponsibilities with the same mindset could be something they have to overcome. This means they have to take the time to unlearn the NCO mindset, or at least backseat it, so they are focusing on the objectives that they should be focusing on.
On the other hand, an officer who was prior enlisted already knows the system. They can leverage that general Army experience and knowledge and be far ahead of a new officer coming out of college. Understanding the mindest of junior enlisted and NCO's can set the prior service officer up to be more successful.
I haven't even discussed the individual characteristic variables like ego, personality, and trainability. Once you put stir that into the batter, it turns into a crapshoot.

So yes I think that prior service officers can make better officers. I also think they can make worse ones...depending.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Mar 11 at 2014 10:20 AM

Maj Chris Nelson — Tue, 11 Mar 2014 10:20:14 -0400

I am one of those.  In some cases, the answer is no.  Some (very few, but they are out there), feel that because they were enlisted they know EXACTLY what the enlisted job is, and will not bend an inch to help with the mission and are very quick to remind the enlisted troops what they need to do. MOST, I feel have an additional insight that will help them lead and work with enlisted.  The fact that they have "been there, done that" sits well with many enlisted members. It also lends a degree of credibility when they speak.  The other thing that they are really good at is career counseling.  They are able to discuss some of the programs that are available to enlisted for crossing over, OR education.  The provide a wealth of info.  Are they really better LEADERS?  Maybe, maybe not, but they bring many other skills to the table that will benefit the troops that they are leading.

Response by CPT Jason Torpy made Mar 11 at 2014 8:28 PM

CPT Jason Torpy — Tue, 11 Mar 2014 20:28:47 -0400

First, this probably varies by service, with reliance on enlisted persons being correlated with prior enlisted service being of higher value to officers.
Second, probably yes. prior enlisted service is almost certainly of value as with any experience. The alternative is that they have no prior enlisted service. All officers have college and whatever highschool, etc. So all other things being equal officer > officer + enlisted... unless someone is suggesting that having prior enlisted service is a problem.

But the real question is why the question matters unless you want to make that some selection criteria or something...

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Mar 12 at 2014 9:20 AM

SGM Matthew Quick — Wed, 12 Mar 2014 09:20:11 -0400

Better?  Maybe.  More well-rounded?  Definitely.<br><br>Having a better appreciation of 'where you came from' and for the ones you command /lead may keep someone grounded, when needed.

Response by SSG Mike Angelo made Mar 12 at 2014 11:21 AM

SSG Mike Angelo — Wed, 12 Mar 2014 11:21:36 -0400

setting boundaries when commissioned is paramount. Now the officer once enlisted leads from the rear. which means...stay out of NCO business.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2014 11:50 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Mar 2014 11:50:00 -0400

I'll put it like this, a dirtbag enlisted Soldier will be a dirtbag Officer. You only get the opportunity to be better as a Mustang, its not a guarantee.

Response by 1stSgt Florinao (Frank) Aguayo made Mar 12 at 2014 3:10 PM

1stSgt Florinao (Frank) Aguayo — Wed, 12 Mar 2014 15:10:33 -0400

As a retired 1stSgt of Marines, in most cases the prior enlisted marine has a better understanding of the mission of the Marine Corps and if was a good NCO/SNCO then he has a step above the Academy or OCS or PLC Officer who has no prior service. I have been lucky to have had some Mustangs in my career who were outstanding Officer who were good at there job and look out for there Marines beyond what the Corps required of them. It is rear in this day and age for a Company Commander to know by name all those who are in his/her company.So I do think for the most part that prior service Marine make better Officers.

Response by CPT Richard Riley made Mar 12 at 2014 4:15 PM

CPT Richard Riley — Wed, 12 Mar 2014 16:15:53 -0400

I do fall into that category. I spent the better part of three enlistments telling myself that I could better serve my fellow soldiers by becoming the best NCO I could and reteach what I learn along the way. At almost the last minute I changed my mind and went for OCS, made it & hope that those I worked with believe I made a good choice. It really put me up-side-down TIG/TIS wise, but I did my best. I knew what it felt like as enlisted. I tried to use that knowledge to the situations best advantage when I could. Did I perform like a great officer - if I have to be honest - no, but I believe I did perform like a good officer to the best of my ability. Learning leadership from both sides of the fence helped me be a better person I think. I don't believe there is one right answer to your question, but think that there are officers who come up the ladder and do a good job leading troops. Seems the majority opinion here is murky & the jury may still be out on this one.

Response by LTC Doug McLiverty made Mar 12 at 2014 7:16 PM

LTC Doug McLiverty — Wed, 12 Mar 2014 19:16:17 -0400

When I was an enlisted soldier, I did not care how my officers earned their commissions. I judged them on how competent they were and if they cared about us soldiers. When I became an officer, I remember that and tried to be the kind of officer I would have respected. As for who make better officer, there is no answer to that question it all depends on the individual.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2014 9:37 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Mar 2014 21:37:38 -0400

Sometimes bad influences and learned behaviors follow. Experience wins the day. I would have to say it depends on the level of experience. I have seen a SP4/2LT who was useless despite 2 deployments as an enlisted SM. I have also seen a SP4/2LT who rocked the house and ended up as acting CO. Prior service helps but it is not the be all/end all (In the 2nd instance LT was a stellar troop who worked her tail off then went OCS)

Response by SSG Mike Angelo made Mar 13 at 2014 2:38 AM

SSG Mike Angelo — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 02:38:38 -0400

Do prior enlisted make better officers? I believe that it is situational. I will go with a PFC's ingenuity and a Corporal's sense of urgency over a 2nd Lt's observation/overseer any day. The diverse environments and dynamics of small unit/team leadership would be more compatible with an officer with enlisted experience rather than fresh out of college types. IMO.

When they ETS and go to college and graduate, that 90 day wonder, Officer Basic Course, OBC can be a culture shock as compared to their previous enlisted basic or marine boot camp and enlisted life styles, niche and language.

I believe that the prior enlisted now offficer have alot to bring at the table; knowledge in the NCO support chain, health and welfare programs, single servicemember living, and military dependent issues. My thing is that one cannot have their cake and eat it too...meaning, like NCOs, they are not one of the troops anymore. This can be a tough transition for some. Mentoring, coaching, professional development training all play into the totally new and transitioned enlisted to officer servicemember.

Response by SSG Jason Hoadley made Mar 13 at 2014 12:32 PM

SSG Jason Hoadley — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 12:32:01 -0400

I feel it depends on what paygrade they were before becoming an officer..

E-1 to E-4.. tend to be a little power hungry, and seem to take a little longer to embrace their new roll.

E-5.. Decent officers, a little much on the micro-management.

E-6.. Seem to have the best mix of skills before becoming an officer and it shows when they become an officer..

E-7 to E-9.. Great skill set to become an officer, but I have noticed that they never reallly let go of their inner NCO. I have seen these officers really get in to "NCO Business". I am not saying that is bad, but it does add a little friction to the Officer-NCO relationship.

That is just my $0.02

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2014 12:42 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 12:42:36 -0400

In my experience, the are either really good, or really bad

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2014 12:51 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 12:51:58 -0400

Yes. They have more experience. They relate better in my experiences with these type of officers.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2014 1:34 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 13:34:33 -0400

Let me preface this by saying that I have experienced exceptional AND lack-luster leadership from all commission sources.

Throughout my transition (I was a direct commission source), I'd been peppered with the question from multiple angles about how I was going to leave my NCO ways behind; Direct Commission Board and numerous leaders during my EBOLC. Having crossed over at E8, there was some assurance that I had to provide each time I answered that question. It's been my experience that in more cases than not, the Mustang was more risk tolerant which inherantly gives way to more aggressive results. So, does one interpret those aggressive results as better?

I appreciate every bit of my enlisted experience and it has definitely helped craft my leadership style, but also know that my lane is not embedded anymore in the NCO support channel, nor is it my lane to to be the trainer. My Be, Know, Do has shifted. "Good" officers will be able to judge at what point they need to "engage".

Response by CSM Michael Poll made Mar 13 at 2014 1:49 PM

CSM Michael Poll — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 13:49:35 -0400

For me I have seen yes for some and no for others

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made Apr 4 at 2014 12:26 AM

MAJ Jim Woods — Fri, 04 Apr 2014 00:26:04 -0400

I am one of those "prior enlisted" soldiers. I think the only advantage I had over USMA-AFA-USNA-ROTC Junior officers was that I already knew what was going on and where to get answers to questions because of my prior experience. By the time we reached 1st Lt. or Capt. we were all pretty equal. Most of them had a better grasp of the Field Grade Officer duties. OCS prepared me for Platoon Leader and Company Commander positions.

Response by SSG William Sutter made May 24 at 2014 5:15 PM

SSG William Sutter — Sat, 24 May 2014 17:15:48 -0400

Not really. I can't speak of others but for all the officers I have known before that were NCOs, they couldn't say in their lane. It is important that officers do their job and not the NCOs. If an officer does an NCOs job it shows that the NCO is incompetent.

Response by PO2 Rocky Kleeger made May 24 at 2014 5:29 PM

PO2 Rocky Kleeger — Sat, 24 May 2014 17:29:47 -0400

In my opinion, yes. It is better for someone to be enlisted first so that they will know what the enlisted go through. That is why some of the best officers are Mustangs

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2014 5:42 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 24 May 2014 17:42:38 -0400

Honestly, NO. It might help a bit when they are a young Platoon Leader. But after that an officer's jobs, duty and responsibilities split so far from the realm of NCOs that the experience is not as relevant anymore.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2014 12:41 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 25 May 2014 12:41:28 -0400

I think all officers should have enlisted experience. If our backbone is the NCO then why shouldn't the top dogs understand and have experience in the NCO mission? Maybe not in some of the Medical MOS's but for Combat Arms, it seems like a logical step for the Commanders. Lead from the front right?

Response by CSM Michael Poll made May 25 at 2014 12:49 PM

CSM Michael Poll — Sun, 25 May 2014 12:49:29 -0400

THis is a loaded question as it depends on the individual. If the individual is a good leader to begin with, then it doesnt matter. I have met Officers who were never enlisted and they were outstanding leaders. I have met Officers who were E-4 and below before becoming an Officer and the turned out to be great leaders. I have seen NCOs that became Officers and were outstanding leaders. I have also seen all the above who were incompitant leaders... It is dependant on the individual.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made May 26 at 2014 11:58 AM

1SG Michael Blount — Mon, 26 May 2014 11:58:20 -0400

PFC - this is as loaded as it gets. Simple answer is: it depends on the individual. If one is a natural leader, having previously been an NCO doesn't matter. Some officers - for example GEN Petraeus or GEN Ordierno (sp?) were never enlisted and they're outstanding leaders. By the same token, I've met met Officers who were prior enlisted and they turned out to be pretty squared away, too. The one thing that often happens is an Officer who was a prior NCO sometimes can't resist driving in the NCO lane and it causes me no end of ass-chap. That's a sure-fire sign of an insecure, incompetent leader. The answer is one of those "you'll know it when you see it" types of things. One size sure doesn't fit all in this case.

Response by SGT Keith Boettcher made May 26 at 2014 12:11 PM

SGT Keith Boettcher — Mon, 26 May 2014 12:11:01 -0400

Definitely "YES !" And anyone states other doesn't know what they're talking about. This is my second rodeo. And I have had the honor of serving under several Commissioned who served enlisted. And they have a lot better understanding of the enlisted ranks than those who go in straight commissioned who do not have a clue to what it's like to be on the other side of the tracks. You have to crawl before you walk. And those that start to walk first where always the worse officers and were always getting into trouble because if the lack of knowledge and arrogance

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2014 9:15 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 28 May 2014 21:15:44 -0400

In my experience, it does not matter whether they were enlisted first or not. Being a leader is all about the person, some people are better at it then others. In helping shape the careers of future officers during the last two years, many of them have asked me what they can do to earn the respect of their platoon as newly commissioned officers. My biggest advice is to show genuine concern for your troops and let the buck stop at your level. Defend and stick up for your platoon, and do not let anybody else mess with them. You do that and you will go from being the LT to "my LT" in no time and your Soldiers will respect and follow you.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 3 at 2014 1:14 AM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Jun 2014 01:14:31 -0400

I like the reference that was used in a previous post as "more rounded". I think that an officer that has previous enlisted experience most of the time is a "more rounded" officer. There are some exceptional Mustangs, and some that are sub-par. I have seen an E-6 that had been unable to advance further in the enlisted ranks receive their commission and be a sub par officer because they still acted as an E-5. I think it just comes down to what type of person they are to begin with and if they are prior enlisted why they went officer. I do believe that Mustangs have a greater situational awareness of enlisted issues.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Jun 3 at 2014 1:24 AM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Tue, 03 Jun 2014 01:24:11 -0400

You would think, You would hope. One of the Finest I ever served under CWO Robert Payne was just top of the line but one of the biggest dirtballs I ever served under was a CWO too. So I don't think it gives you any better quality necessarily.

Response by CWO4 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 11 at 2014 12:36 PM

CWO4 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Jun 2014 12:36:01 -0400

Response by MAJ Mark Murray, MBA, MA made Jun 12 at 2014 12:54 PM

MAJ Mark Murray, MBA, MA — Thu, 12 Jun 2014 12:54:14 -0400

I believe the mustang versus non-mustang distinction really applies to the Company grade officer levels (2LT thru CPT and WO1 thru CW2). Once an officer moves into the field grade levels (not including the few green tab/line unit command positions are still available in a downsizing military), the focus becomes management and the mission focus moves from tactical and the "eaches". It is at this level, leader effectiveness is measured more by the analytical and academic acumen an officer has acquired (echelons above realty staff work). Officer performance is measured more on analytical skills acquired at schools and on the job, and hopefully the mustang has had the opportunity to develop his/her staff officer skill set. Mustangs that don't have the four year commissioning/education background have major challenges to contend with. Many have to balance the mission, family, and their "night school". It is a very "tough row to hoe".

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 24 at 2014 11:12 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 23:12:21 -0400

I like to think so. We have a kind of street credibility but it really means nothing if we don't adapt to the O ways and apply our previous lives experience in a positive way. I remember how it felt to be on the receiving end of bad orders and foggy missions. I hope I bring better clarity as a result.

Response by Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2014 2:20 PM

Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Jun 2014 14:20:55 -0400

I enlisted to pay for my education and to provide experience for when I become an officer. I'd hope it has some positive impact.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 9 at 2014 1:45 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Jul 2014 13:45:08 -0400

I not only believe prior enlisted do not necessarily make better officers but I also KNOW this to be true. I say this because I have seen a mixture of good and bad officers throughout my career. The officers come from a mixture of service entry from ROTC to West Point to Green/Gold. Some officers who have never previously served were great officers. Others not so great. Some officers who were prior NCOs were great, and some were just horrible. I can think of two who were just downright nasty and disrespectful to soldiers and NCOs. Both tended to be wrong in many things but they still got promoted.

Response by LTC Doug McLiverty made Jul 10 at 2014 1:36 PM

LTC Doug McLiverty — Thu, 10 Jul 2014 13:36:04 -0400

Another observation I can share from my career. When I reported to the Officer's Basic Course I was older, married, with a child on the way. My contemporaries from ROTC and West Point were younger and didn't have a clue about what the real Army was all about. Four years later when many of them returned for the Officer Advanced Course they were much more mature and probably, better officers. Just my two cents.

Response by 2LT Paul Denhup made Jul 11 at 2014 11:31 AM

2LT Paul Denhup — Fri, 11 Jul 2014 11:31:47 -0400

Absolutely. In my case, I went "Green to Gold" as a SMP (simultaneous membership program) cadet years after I finished Basic and AIT. Definitely found that NCO's and enlisted had more respect for me as I totally understood where they're coming from.

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2014 9:04 PM

CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Jul 2014 21:04:00 -0400

I served enlisted with the Iowa National Guard E-1 - E-5 as a Combat Engineer, and now I am a 2LT Engineer Officer in Active Duty.
I know that my experience with the National Guard is what has made me successful so far. I have been very fortunate to be afforded a wealth of knowledge and experience that I can now utilize as a leader.

Although I can say without a doubt that some of my peers who have no prior service will always command my respect, because they are simply just awesome leaders.

Response by SSgt Gregory Guina made Jul 13 at 2014 7:16 PM

SSgt Gregory Guina — Sun, 13 Jul 2014 19:16:45 -0400

Depends totally on the individual. I have worked with mustangs that are great and respect where you are coming from and understand the enlisted point of view. At the same time I have worked with those that won't take the chevrons off. Officers trying to get into the inner workings of the enlisted just rubs me the wrong way.

Response by LCDR Clifford Vaught made Jul 16 at 2014 11:27 AM

LCDR Clifford Vaught — Wed, 16 Jul 2014 11:27:16 -0400

What is the point of questions like this? I find the argumentative, offensive, and divisive.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 6 at 2014 11:12 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Aug 2014 11:12:23 -0400

That is like comparing apples and oranges. I have met and worked with superb Officers who have enlisted experience and others who have none. I have also worked with some Officers (and NCO's) that I would not wish to follow into battle if my life depended upon it.

Some people are natural leaders and are very effective. Others need work and many are a work in progress. I feel that an Officer who has enlisted experience is a plus but I don't make that the deciding criteria of how they stack up against their peers.

Response by CAPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 6 at 2014 11:55 AM

CAPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Aug 2014 11:55:26 -0400

I wouldn't give a blanket opinion on whether they are always better, but as a prior enlisted officer, I have a unique view of the enlisted perspective and their view of leadership and the world. That has helped me countless times in decision-making. However, I have seen a relative handful of mustangs that never completely make the officer transition.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Aug 6 at 2014 1:20 PM

SGT Richard H. — Wed, 06 Aug 2014 13:20:44 -0400

I worked with a pretty fair number of officers throughout my time in the military....I really don't think I could say whether Prior enlisted/OCS, ROTC, or Academy officers are any better or worse without factoring in a plethora of other things. "Good" or "Bad" is very individual in my opinion, and each of those avenues is comprised of many types of individual people.

Response by CPT Carolyn "Carrie" Hoza made Aug 6 at 2014 2:17 PM

CPT Carolyn "Carrie" Hoza — Wed, 06 Aug 2014 14:17:52 -0400

I think you are going to find good officers & good NCOs all over the military. The same is to be said about finding not so great officers & NCOs alike. I personally do not think that prior service makes you a better leader. I think humility, honesty, integrity, the ability to make a decision, delegation, & general love of your job & those you lead makes you a better officer/leader.

Response by MSG Floyd Williams made Aug 6 at 2014 3:06 PM

MSG Floyd Williams — Wed, 06 Aug 2014 15:06:27 -0400

It all depends on the individual skills, knowledge, and ability with a good record.

Response by TSgt Trevor Vander made Aug 7 at 2014 4:29 PM

TSgt Trevor Vander — Thu, 07 Aug 2014 16:29:00 -0400

The absolute worst Officer I worked for was prior enlisted. The best officers I worked for - plural there - were OTS/OCS officers. The ROTC guys were, uhm uh, and the Zoomies were always a bit more carefree and fun to be around. But the prior guys were generally really good, but the worst one of all was a Major and prior....

Response by SPC James Oakes made Aug 20 at 2014 5:05 PM

SPC James Oakes — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 17:05:47 -0400

I've seen that one go both ways. Maybe it's just that prior enlisted who happen to be great leaders tend to pursue the officer ranks later on?

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2014 7:45 AM

A1C Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 07:45:13 -0400

I've had a commander that was previously enlisted (TSgt) and in my opinion he was by far the best commander I've ever met. Not only does he have knowledge, but he knows what its like to be on the bottom of the totum pole. He never asked anything of us that he hadn't already done. With that being said, he's gone now and we have a new commander who isn't prior enlisted. He doesnt have that connection with us enlisted members. He expects more of us than he's ever done and he certainly isn't volunteering to help us out or teach us.

Response by Capt Chris McVeigh made Sep 2 at 2014 11:41 PM

Capt Chris McVeigh — Tue, 02 Sep 2014 23:41:58 -0400

Short answer, no. Yes, some will be able to draw on their experience but I think you would find that had those officers not been prior, they would still have been high quality officers. I think prior service can give a brand new Lieutenant a leg up just due to the fact that he will have greater military experience but once he has spent a few years as an officer, the difference between him and any other good officer is pretty much gone.

I have had to many dealings with priors who thought they knew everything or couldn't shake the enlisted mentality (LCpls with officer rank) to think it inherently makes them better officers.

In all honesty, usually the only way to tell a good prior from a good non-prior is by how many ribbons they have.

Response by Lt Col Gregory Anderson made Sep 4 at 2014 9:58 PM

Lt Col Gregory Anderson — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 21:58:32 -0400

That's a great question Chief.
I've always heard that prior enlisted make the best officers, and I swear I can tell if an officer is prior enlisted - but I haven't thought about it much.
The most impact where prior enlisted make a difference is by having an insight and greater respect for the real meat of the military - the enlisted folks. SGT Boettcher (below) and many other inputs have indicated this same feeling. I have caught myself sometimes even calling a Chief "Sir", and not correcting it. The E8s and E9s carry the entire military on their backs - just my opinion.
To sum it up - prior enlisted make better officers because they remember where they came from, and subsequently they know the shoes the E1 through E9 are walking in.

Response by CMSgt Charles Elliott made Sep 7 at 2014 10:59 AM

CMSgt Charles Elliott — Sun, 07 Sep 2014 10:59:49 -0400

I don't think being prior enlisted makes a better officer, but more informed, has a good grasp of the basics, and has the been there, done that mindset and able to focus more on the important aspects of being a leader instead of learning everything a 2nd LT fresh out of school has to learn. I've worked with some exceptionally good ones and fortunately only a couple that let their new found officer rank go to their head. I will say I was blessed to work with many fine officers during my 26 year career and most were not prior enlisted.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2014 2:15 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Sep 2014 14:15:35 -0400

No not necessarily. Lots of things go into being a good officer. Maturity and experience are important. A prior enlisted lt is older and likely more mature than a ROTC lt so he may start off better. Also he does have more experience in the Air Force which helps. Experience as an officer is more important to officer development than just any old experience. So 10 year major who isn't prior enlisted should be a better officer than a 1lt with 8 years prior enlisted and 2 years officer. The responsibility you had while prior enlisted also should be looked at. A 22 year old 2lt who was a prior enlisted airman will probably not be any better than a 22 2lt from the academy or maybe even ROTC. He didn't have to practice leadership as an airman so how would that help? Now I'm sure enlisted guys like prior e officers better but that isn't really my problem. That's their problem and as long as they listen to me it's not even a problem really.

Response by CMSgt Frank Dailey made Sep 7 at 2014 2:19 PM

CMSgt Frank Dailey — Sun, 07 Sep 2014 14:19:16 -0400

As a person who has worked with the Israel, the British forces and the Germans who specifically select and groom their young enlisted to prepare to lead as NCOs and Command as officers. Those who show promise and potential as potential officer candidate are offered to transition to the Officer corps. There are many who wish to serve in the Leadership and Execution side of the NCO Corps verses the Command and Planning side of the Officer Corps, there is no dishonor in selection between one course or the other.

The difference is within the way we deal with the transition, and their process, is they develop and encourage the need for both senior enlisted and officers. In Israel all must serve their 2 yrs of compulsory service and then some are selected and recommended for commissioning.

As an enlisted senior leader, I prefer to have prior enlisted officers, over fresh young officers. They are more mature and if you treat them as such they will grow and thrive. All to often a Senior Enlisted Officer does not recognize the full potential of an officer with this experience. No matter the experience of the officer, I never accepted, "Ahh Chief I am just a Dumb LT." I reminded them that the President and Congress had found them trustworthy enough to be appointed over me...in that job description... being Dumb is not in the job description! Working with them and developing them means that they will become extraordinary!

If you let them be Dumb LTs then the become Dumb Capts ect. I also point out how our sister Services and Allies rely more on the young officers to lead with distinction. I support and appreciate the Prior Enlisted Officer as a mature element of command and the leadership team.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 7 at 2014 2:46 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Sep 2014 14:46:30 -0400

Like all things - either way can be good or bad especially when moving into the officer realm.

I found a couple of good reads for future officers (and even those that already are) - they might have been created by Air Force members, but the content is universal across the different branches and would be very worthwhile read by all.

Below is the information and links to the reading material:

Heirpower!
Eight Basic Habits of Exceptionally Powerful Lieutenants
Bob Vásquez.
Air University Press
131 West Shumacher Avenue
Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6615

http://www.au.af.mil/au/aupress/digital/pdf/book/b_0100_vasquez_heirpower.pdf

Commanding an Air Force Squadron in the Twenty-First Century
A Practical Guide of Tips and Techniques for Today’s Squadron Commander
JEFFRY F. SMITH
Lieutenant Colonel, USAF
Air University Press
Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama
August 2003

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/au/smith.pdf

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2014 2:44 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 18 Sep 2014 02:44:48 -0400

I guess the big question would be is it because they were prior service that made them better? Or is it that they are typically older and have a bit more life experiences to have better interpersonal skills?

I do not discount that the experiences gained in the prior life make someone a bit more informed and well rounded. But the term prior service is very broad. It could mean someone was picked up for a commissioning program immediately out of the pipeline with no real time on the line, to someone who was in for 14 years before commissioning. I knew a cadet who had a line number for Senior once. He was going through the program to become a Nurse or some other Medical type I believe and wanted the new job that was only available to officers.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 24 at 2014 1:42 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Sep 2014 13:42:50 -0400

I was a prior service officer and I think there are relatively equal numbers of each quality officer from all of the commissioning sources. The advantages of prior service are during the commissioning process and as a junior officer.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 24 at 2014 1:42 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Sep 2014 13:42:23 -0400

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 3 at 2014 9:02 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Oct 2014 21:02:53 -0400

No doubt about it. Absolutely! They know what it felt like to be a Private, Specialist, etc. And I submit that there is no substitute for that experience. None.

Response by SMSgt Judy Hickman made Dec 7 at 2014 2:35 PM

SMSgt Judy Hickman — Sun, 07 Dec 2014 14:35:45 -0500

I want to say yes and I wish I could say a confident yes to prior enlisted members being better officers than non prior enlisted service, but I have honestly seen it flow both ways. I have worked with some outstanding officers, that were prior enlisted that understood how important we are too the mission, but at the same time understood that thing have changed and that our feedback is very important to the decisions that need to be made. At the same time I have worked with prior enlisted officers, who appear to have forgotten everything they learned while being enlisted. They make decisions in a vacuum and don't appreciate what enlisted bring to the fight.

So at the end of the day, being prior enlisted doesn't mean anything. It is the person that matters and their ability to be flexible and build teams.

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Jan 7 at 2015 6:00 PM

LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow — Wed, 07 Jan 2015 18:00:11 -0500

I was an E5 prior to commissioning. This gave me a broad understanding of what Enlisted life is like. However, whether someone is a "good officer" or not has little to do with their having been enlisted - rather it's that they are a good person, who learns to lead, not boss, manage, not micro manage, etc...

There is the perception that the "Mustang" is a better officer, but that is from the perspective of the deckplates - the enlisted personnel. "He was one of us, so he understands us..."

I've seen plenty of completely incompetent mustangs, and plenty of outstanding officers with no Enlisted service.

It all depends on the person...

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2015 3:41 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Mar 2015 15:41:22 -0500

I met one prior enlisted officer that just seemed to believe he walked on water. He would constantly remind people that he was prior enlisted, took no advice or guidance from his SNCOs, and abused his authority with no regard for the mission, the people, or the unit. I truly believed he went the officer route because he didn't like being told what to do and wanted to "show them". To this day I have zero respect for that person, only respecting the brass on his collar.

Another one I knew was a really *nice* guy. "One of the boys" as it were. Too many times I pulled his aside and told him to stop trying to remain enlisted and become a leader. By the time they moved on, they were nothing more than a doormat.

I am a FIRM believer in "walk a mile in their shoes" when it comes to leadership. Officers and even SNCOs need to step back and observe so they know how they are leading and directing. I include SNCOs because they have been away from the game for too long, things have changed. I read a really good book (but I can't remember the title) a long time ago where a General woke up one day and was a Private, and had to live and breathe all the rules and orders that he had given. That all said - just having the experience of being enlisted doesn't make one a good or even great officer. However I feel it is the first step in the right direction.

Of course, I also feel that our leadership model is archaic and dated. Today's humanity isn't productive by getting some 22 yr old kid in a position of authority over a man or woman that has been in the service longer than they have been alive. Time to have one ladder with a non-linear path (stay enlisted or go officer) instead of two separate ladders.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2015 2:47 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 May 2015 14:47:11 -0400

Since I am a Direct-Commissioned Officer that was an NCO previously, I would love to say YES! However, that would be disingenuous of me. Prior-enlisted do not have a monopoly on good officers. Speaking for myself, I treasure my enlisted time and experience. I believe that it makes me a better officer. However, there are examples ad nauseum of stellar officers that I would not hesitate to follow into battle, that represent everything from ring-knockers, to ROTC, to DC officers. Leadership is leadership. Either you earn the trust and respect of your men, or you don't. Maybe my view is overly simplistic, however I have yet to disprove it.

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Jul 28 at 2015 1:10 PM

LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow — Tue, 28 Jul 2015 13:10:15 -0400

I'm also a Mustang. That being said, I've met plenty of clueless Mustangs, and plenty of amazing officers who were never enlisted.

I would avoid painting with a broad brush...

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Jul 28 at 2015 6:03 PM

CPT Pedro Meza — Tue, 28 Jul 2015 18:03:26 -0400

CMSgt Mark Schubert, All the Prior Service Officers I have known were better Officers, I also did my best to ensure that I did my best to be a better officer for my troops. Given the fact that none put a rattle snake in my vehicle I did well.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Jul 28 at 2015 9:02 PM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Tue, 28 Jul 2015 21:02:25 -0400

Yes. They understand how things get done and know to trust enlisted personnel more fully.

Response by CMSgt Mark Lewis made Jul 28 at 2015 10:28 PM

CMSgt Mark Lewis — Tue, 28 Jul 2015 22:28:48 -0400

Actually, I think that depends on the individual officer. There are those who remember what it was like to be enlisted and had greater insight into the effects their decisions had on the enlisted force - those tended to be better officers in general. I have also seen officers who were prior enlisted and had a disdain toward the enlisted population. Obviously, they were not good officers at all.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2015 6:41 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 06:41:04 -0400

no. They micro manage too much and butt the actual NCOs out, because being an NCO is all they know. I know of one single Green to Gold officer who was a good officer.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Sep 8 at 2015 8:19 AM

MCPO Roger Collins — Tue, 08 Sep 2015 08:19:52 -0400

Define better.

Response by SGT Marc Shepherd made Sep 9 at 2015 2:04 PM

SGT Marc Shepherd — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 14:04:11 -0400

From my experience it has made a difference. Every officer that I've known that was prior enlisted was a much better leader than the ones who weren't

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Sep 9 at 2015 3:07 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 09 Sep 2015 15:07:44 -0400

If you are born in the mud, you will have compassion for those in the mud.

Response by SFC Seth King made Oct 18 at 2015 12:04 AM

SFC Seth King — Sun, 18 Oct 2015 00:04:06 -0400

In my experience, I've generally felt that prior enlisted officers had a better finger on the pulse of the unit. Sometimes college commissioned officers have a sense of entitlement. There are good and bad eggs in both batches, but personally, I would rather be led by someone who has felt my struggle.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2015 12:07 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 18 Oct 2015 00:07:53 -0400

In my experince .. A big yes

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2016 7:16 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Feb 2016 19:16:03 -0500

I have only been in for a short time (five years), but in my career I have served with a number of Mustangs. It seems to be a popular choice lately, although I can’t speak for patterns from long ago. Speaking from my personal experience, prior enlisted can be a double edged sword. It has been hit or miss. On one hand it shows an enormous amount of drive and commitment to go to the Dark Side, but It seems that there is some difficulty letting go of one role and embracing another. I have had passionate engaged Platoon Leaders who balance the human element with mission requirements, but on the back side I have had those who seem to have forgotten the difference between a leader and an authority figure. All and all, I have to say that Mustangs are micro-managers and can be difficult to work with but when you have the right one he/she is a true force multiplier.

Response by Maj John Bell made May 30 at 2016 12:00 PM

Maj John Bell — Mon, 30 May 2016 12:00:59 -0400

I was not a Mustang, kind of wish I had been. I will say that two of the three Senior officers I admired most while I was in were mustangs. Amazingly enough two of the three biggest turd officers I met were mustangs.

Of the dozens and dozens of Senior SNCO's (pay grade E-7) regardless of service or MOS everyone was admirable and honorable men, with only one exception. If we could develop that senior SNCO level of consistency... WOW!

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2016 4:36 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 May 2016 16:36:03 -0400

It depends. Motives play a key role here. I've worked with several excellent prior-enlisted officers over the years. What made them great was their perspective and compassion. I've also worked with several prior-enlisted officers who have self-appointed themselves as ombudsmen for the enlisted corps. Their goals seems to be to "stick it to the man." These officers all seemed to have a negative experience with officers during their enlisted time and now they're on a mission. These officers seem to self-destruct about mid-career when their adversarial ways gains the attention of more senior officers.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Jun 2 at 2016 9:57 PM

SSG Roger Ayscue — Thu, 02 Jun 2016 21:57:52 -0400

Yes, IF the prior enlisted service included time as a NCO. But to put bars on a private is just as bad as to put bars on a civilian. Only now to put the bars on the private you have a officer with an attitude.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2016 3:23 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Jun 2016 15:23:22 -0400

not in all cases, but generally yes. of course, it depends on the individual, what kind of enlisted soldier they were, how long they were enlisted, etc. We had a knucklehead LT in my last guard unit that was always claiming he was prior enlisted. Turns out he attended basic training and that was the end of his enlisted service. entered the SMP and became a cadet straight out of BMT.

Response by SSG Wally Lawver made Aug 18 at 2016 10:48 AM

SSG Wally Lawver — Thu, 18 Aug 2016 10:48:58 -0400

maybe,maybe not:)

Response by LTC Terrence Farrier, PhD made Aug 26 at 2016 12:42 PM

LTC Terrence Farrier, PhD — Fri, 26 Aug 2016 12:42:16 -0400

Yes. A pragmatic view of your question led me to decide that when I decide who was to be my junior leaders, LTC through 2LT, they would primarily have enlisted time. Why? As an enlisted soldier I remember situations where the officer simply didn't understand what had to be done to complete a task he or she was unfamiliar. Also, judgmental differences exist when the whole answer does not come from peer or even senior officers. I wore a federally recognized NCO ribbon my entire career as a reserve officer when senior officers who received their commissions without the enlisted time told me I should not wear it. My answer in one particular case was: "Sir, the enlisted people who see this ribbon know they can tell me the truth and I will not divulge information given me through them, but they will not give it to officers without it!" He didn't like it, but it was and is the truth! So, yes again. It does make a difference. Just as fairly, because many officers who attain their rank have gone through more years of college training...I would pick them as my staff. Why? Usually, they have the academic training that allows them to make more factual information...factual...or at least know how to present it in such a way as others who need to know the information can get it. Of course, in both scenarios there are exceptions. I was enlisted and received my commission through OCS. We are different...not better. Just my take!

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2016 6:46 PM

ENS Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 12 Sep 2016 18:46:08 -0400

I've seen stellar Officers from both the pure breed Officer community and the prior enlisted community. On the flip side, I've encountered absolute garbage officers from both walks of life. I'd like to say that for the most part, being prior enlisted gives you a leg up on things, however you still have a lot to learn in becoming, acting, and thinking like an Officer. Prior enlisted Officers tend to be a little more abrasive than their pure blooded counter-parts. Either way, I've seen 4 Star Officers who were prior enlisted who obviously were a cut above the rest. I also know a pure blooded Naval Academy grad who I believe will be the CNO one day.

In summary, it's the person wearing the rank that makes a good Officer. Each person is different and past experiences don't necessarily make you any more or less qualified than someone else.

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Jun 24 at 2017 4:41 AM

SSgt Boyd Herrst — Sat, 24 Jun 2017 04:41:14 -0400

Chief; I think much of it is they've been where the enlisted man had been(in their shoes or boots, whichever applies) they can relate better with the enlisted and know where they're coming from and they convey that in their style of leadership.

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Jun 24 at 2017 4:55 AM

SSgt Boyd Herrst — Sat, 24 Jun 2017 04:55:02 -0400

When I was stationed in N.D. We had a Admin officer who was filling in while the Cmdr. Was gone TDY and he seemed to have gotten more done in that 90 days or so than the Cmdr. He was covering for.
At a later time I believe s'body up top seen this and that Cmdr. Was quietly reassigned and the Lt. Who also had been a mustang became the new Cmdr. I think the Lt. Was doing a lot of string pulling behind the scenes and that former Cmdr. Was signing off on it.. just an observation.

Response by SSgt Ryan Sylvester made Jun 26 at 2017 12:51 PM

SSgt Ryan Sylvester — Mon, 26 Jun 2017 12:51:51 -0400

I think the entitled jackass ratio went 90%-10%, 50/50, 10%-90%. Academy, ROTC, OCS, respectively. Seriously, though, an officer tends to only be as good as the NCOs that raise them. Whether they start their career with bars or stripes.

Response by SFC Derrick Hardison made Aug 8 at 2017 10:49 AM

SFC Derrick Hardison — Tue, 08 Aug 2017 10:49:03 -0400

Sure do! Makes the Officer more well rounded. They know how people feel about things on both sides of the fence.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Aug 8 at 2017 1:10 PM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Tue, 08 Aug 2017 13:10:09 -0400

IMHO yes, they started at the bottom of the ladder, and know how the men would like to be treated. There are some good as well as bad ones.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2017 1:11 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Aug 2017 13:11:56 -0400

CMSgt, I think that mustangs make better officers personally. I have spent most of my time working in a staff building and worked with officers closely. A Mustang O-3, compared to a normal O-3 usually has a better understanding of leadership at the lower levels as well as processes for minor end items and readiness that these supporting elements provide at least in the staff positions. As a company grade officer in a CO/XO position I would say that the prior enlisted officers are far better leaders. Mustangs understand how to lead Marines because they were lead as a young enlisted Marine. They have had time to build their leadership toolbox from prior experiences. just my two cents.

Response by LTC Orlando Illi made Aug 8 at 2017 6:38 PM

LTC Orlando Illi — Tue, 08 Aug 2017 18:38:20 -0400

I will keep my opinions to myself (50th Company Army OCS - Feb 1978) - HOOAH

Response by Cpl Tou Lee Yang made Aug 9 at 2017 10:15 AM

Cpl Tou Lee Yang — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 10:15:21 -0400

Of course, not only is a mustang a better officer due to experience, but also due to their ability to sympathize and empathize with their troops. I agree that most mustang are better officer but also worst officer as well. A mustang who forget his roots are the worst type of officer and a dis-service to the men and women they manage.

Response by PO1 Barbara Matthews made Jan 14 at 2018 7:52 PM

PO1 Barbara Matthews — Sun, 14 Jan 2018 19:52:53 -0500

For some yes and others no. I once worked for a Navy Nurse who forgot where he came from. He was a prior Corpsman.

He was boisterous and proud. He would belittle junior Corpsmen and make you feel like you weren't worth much.

Back in 1992 he made a comment about people who made less than $60K/yr. Something to the effect that you haven't made it in life until... I wasn't even making $20K/yr yet.

He acted as though he was better than you because he became an officer. He was a LCDR (O5).

In the flip side I remember a Navy Capt who was a prior Corpsman. He was the CO of one of my Hospital commands. He was the total opposite of the LCDR.

He was approachable and knew his Sailors by name. He loved to people advance and achieve. He motivated us and wanted us Petty Officers to lead and mentor the junior Corpsmen. The command moral was high.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2018 8:28 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Apr 2018 08:28:28 -0400

Not always. I’ve seen several that do not transition well into the role of an Officer. Their personality and way they contributed as an NCO just didn’t mesh with what officership is. Great officers trust, plan, watch, listen, and mentor; we intervene only if someone’s immediate safety is at risk.
However, ones that understand this can make outstanding officers that the troops can identify with, thus earning immediate respect, and mentor fellow officers along the way!

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2018 8:02 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 06 May 2018 20:02:15 -0400

Many of them do and a few do not. Having been on both sides of that fence, I have seen so many (prior enlisted) officers who were patently outstanding. There were relatively few who should never have been commissioned/appointed.

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made May 7 at 2018 9:26 AM

SSG Robert Perrotto — Mon, 07 May 2018 09:26:34 -0400

I believe - like in all walks of life - there is a mix of good ones along with bad ones - as one 1SG has said - you sometimes get those officers who like to literally get into the NCO lane and micro manage from there, and then you get those that are just amazing and have such insight that even seasoned NCO's learn from them. The main aspect for me - imho - is communication - sharing and discussing the ideas so everyone understands and is on the same page, and how you communicate your thoughts to another. It is too easy to tell a soldier "we are doing it this way because I said so - it worked for me when I was enlisted" that will shut down your troops and get only the bare minimal in effort to accomplish the task - gonna voice an unpopular opinion - an officer is only as good as their NCO's and troops want him to be - that does not mean you are hostage to their goodwill, because your NCO's will do their jobs, but if you can communicate and are open to different ideas on how a task can be accomplished - then your troops would go to hell and back for you and take satans throne as trophy for you.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2018 10:18 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Oct 2018 22:18:34 -0400

Maybe and maybe not. It really depends on the quality of prior enlisted service that officer had, who “raised them” when they were enlisted, were they Junior Enlisted, an NCO or a Senior NCO? I think prior enlisted service just gives you that practical experience and exposure that most due course officers don’t get when they are leading thier peers in ROTC, The Academy, or OCS. But leadership really boils down to the individual. I was prior enlisted for 17 years, there are officers I serve with now that I feel are much better and smarter than I am. It really does depend on the individual.

Response by MAJ Raymond Haynes made Oct 18 at 2018 1:33 AM

MAJ Raymond Haynes — Thu, 18 Oct 2018 01:33:47 -0400

I am a member of that group. In the Marines they are called Mustang Officers. I made a few observations about that distinction. When I was an idiot 2nd Lt, that little Good Conduct Ribbon allowed me to draw a additional amount of knowledge from the SNCO brain trust. It was almost like they trusted me more than your average Lt. As I moved up in the ranks, and changed billets, that advantage continued to hold true. I remember taking command of an I MEF exercise as the camp commandant. Me a gunny and a staff sgt, the rest junior enlisted, about 150 Marines. The second night after I checked in the gunny knocked on my BOQ door with a bottle of whiskey in his hand, and said that a definite opportunity existed to make me look real good, and was I interested in some of his suggestions. Ethical or not I invited him in, about half way through the bottle I asked why he cared if I looked good. He said because of my prior enlisted time. He had some great ideas, that only a gunny can have, and our part of the exercise was a smooth running success. I told the gunny that night that he would get no special favors, and I would grind his balls into dust if he tried any tricks or shortcuts. He seemed insulted that I would have to even say that. He was one squared-away E-7. The reason for this story is that sometimes prior-enlisted officers do so well is due to the enhanced help from the senior enlisted who support his actions and take a special interest in their success. Totally all off the record of course.

Response by SSG Howard Fair made Jul 2 at 2019 8:42 AM

SSG Howard Fair — Tue, 02 Jul 2019 08:42:14 -0400

Yes in most cases, but I knew one that was self serving and a waste of air as an NCO and they made him a Officer. He was as useful as a screen door in a submarine!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2019 7:32 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 14 Sep 2019 19:32:30 -0400

The accession process doesn’t determine who becomes the best officers. It comes down to the best people who choose to become officers. I’ve met dirtbags and all stars from OCS, West Point, and College Options. Prior service enlisted have a better understanding of how the military works, but that doesn’t always translate to becoming a better officer.

Response by COL Dana Hampton made Sep 14 at 2019 7:38 PM

COL Dana Hampton — Sat, 14 Sep 2019 19:38:04 -0400

Good question, but I must tell you that the source of commission has little to do with what makes a good officer or, even, a great leader.

Even attaining a General’s Star or more doesn’t mean that person is a great leader, let alone an officer.

Great leaders read and study their craft. They become masters of the art of warfare through study, practice and by setting the example of a humble person who cares for those in their charge as much as they understand the battlefield. They become masters of the art of maneuver and logistical operations. They teach, train and allow subordinates freedom of act and, yes, sometimes to fail. Because there are many lessons that can be learned from failure and sometimes, that is the only way a lesson can be mastered.

Worry less about where someone’s commission comes from or whether they were prior enlisted or not. Learn that and focus on being the best at your craft, take care of and train your people to the best possible readiness level, set standards and ensure they are met...by yourself first and those you lead second.

Be the leader you want to see in others and never stop learning.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2019 8:02 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 14 Sep 2019 20:02:42 -0400

It really depends on the individual's personal work ethic and character. I've had Green to Gold peers who were stellar, and some who were only out for themselves. Additionally, some of my classmates who had no military background were some of the most dedicated people that I've met.

My personal opinion is that knowledge of how the military works is a teachable concept, but having good character isn't and that it's something that an individual has to realize for themselves.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Sep 14 at 2019 8:10 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Sat, 14 Sep 2019 20:10:32 -0400

SGT Joe Sung I have seen great officers come from all three primary commissioning sources. I have also seen terrible officers from all three commissioning sources.

Common thought traps:
- ROTC: I just graduated from Schmuckitelli State College and I'm smarter than you
- USMA: As I have repeatedly told you, I am a West Point graduate, why are you not impressed?
- OCS: I was a <insert MOS here> As an E3 so I understand how this all works inside and out at the Battalion level.
- All three: I have to decide right now because that is what all my training looked like (for a decision that doesn't need to be made).
- All three: from my (limited experience as an OFFICER) this is what we are doing in the face of capable NCO advice.
- OCS: I am still the backbone of the Army....I have seen numerous prior service officers subconsciously slide into the NCO roles instead of being the officer they needed to be. There can only be one 1SG per company and one CSM per Battalion.
- All three: this really questionable easy way seems to Be the best route.

Response by LTC Wayne Brandon made Sep 14 at 2019 8:53 PM

LTC Wayne Brandon — Sat, 14 Sep 2019 20:53:08 -0400

While the background of a soldier can play a role in how quickly an officer develops, it boils down to the officer who is most interested and active in becoming the best leader will usually be the determining factor.

Response by LTJG Robert M. made Sep 14 at 2019 9:12 PM

LTJG Robert M. — Sat, 14 Sep 2019 21:12:29 -0400

Enlisted who have been in rank and are then accepted into OCS. But that is my biased opinion. I’ve met and served with both. I met straight commission officers that were complete a-holes I’ve also met prior enlisted officers who were complete a-holes. Character really defines who we are as leaders.

Response by CPL Earl Kochis made Sep 14 at 2019 9:22 PM

CPL Earl Kochis — Sat, 14 Sep 2019 21:22:00 -0400

A good officer is determined by that particular individual and how open their mind is to learning and advice from those around them!

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Sep 14 at 2019 10:06 PM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Sat, 14 Sep 2019 22:06:14 -0400

I read what's here, so far as I could, and I completely understand the various reactions I'd seen to what you'd asked...that being said, I've answered stuff like this, so far as I could, when I've seen such threads, however, I'll try to do so again here, so far as I'm able, as I do have a point I'd care to make, to the extent possible, OK? I was Army ROTC, then went USAF OTS right after, instead, without having been prior enlisted...I trained while at OTS with many prior enlisted, from all svcs, and, pretty much uniformly, they all, as a rule, tended to adjust, at least from what I could see, far more readily to the role, than I did, God knows, and I actually had to go through the whole thing basically twice before I'd been allowed to finish, having been recycled once. There is truth that individual maturity does have a great deal to do with whether one is suited to go straight to commissioned, or warrant...however, and I am entirely serious about this...in any large bureaucratic admin organization like a svc, things just simply don't always go right, or, at the very least, in the fashion those joining either expect, or anticipate...one guy, for example, as I'd read recently, was in the very next class after mine, he eventually finished out, I'd read, as an O-10, and yeah, that's a true story, I did read it...now, having said that, and, having had virtually everything humanly possible go wrong when I went in, working for all the wrong people, in the wrong place, for all the wrong reasons, I quite literally needed my head virtually pounded into concrete pavement, figuratively, to realize that there just were some things I wasn't going to be able to change, no matter how much I nagged, pleaded, begged, or groveled...those whom I'd seen of those enlisted before OTS, I think, managed to grasp that way earlier than I did...that's why I'm saying, in retrospect, that being prior enlisted helped those I'd seen, and could only serve to help those who'd go for such programs, honest...my wife's Dad had been a corporal in WW2, when he got accepted to the Army Field Artillery OCS at Ft Sill, after he'd been in a cpl of yrs, I'd found out...he got a Bronze with "V" for walking through a German minefield, then standing out in the open with the artillery battery he'd commanded as the Germans were shelling with the 90th Div, the "Tough Hombres", attached to 3rd Army under Gen. Patton...now, once I'd read that, I'd realized I was pretty close to right...had I been more fortunate, had I been where I'd hoped, and had wanted, then, yeah, maybe I'd have been more ready for that...honestly, I'd like to think so, of course, though, truthfully, I don't know, which'll always nag at me...however, knowing as much as I do after having spent as long as I have around the svcs and the VA, having been through two training programs, I'd have to reluctantly say yeah, having been enlisted, if only to have had time to have acclimated properly beforehand, would've been preferable, I think, to having dived into the deep end of the pool head first, with virtually zero prep ahead of time, as I'd found out was the case, honest...those are my thoughts about the whole thing, such as they are, for whatever they might be worth, OK?

Response by LTC John Griscom made Sep 15 at 2019 6:48 AM

LTC John Griscom — Sun, 15 Sep 2019 06:48:20 -0400

I have seen various examples of examples of officers with prior enlisted service. Worked for two four-stars who came up through the ranks. Also saw several that never really made the grade.

Response by 1LT Rich Voss made Sep 16 at 2019 12:57 AM

1LT Rich Voss — Mon, 16 Sep 2019 00:57:13 -0400

I come from that "weird" time of Viet Nam and the Cold War. By "weird", I mean that a person (such as myself) could have absolutely NO college, other than advanced/college prep high school courses and become an officer at age 18 or 19. So, I was drafted, enlisted to get my choice of schools, got to Armor OCS at around 5 1/2 months in and was fortunate enough to graduate. Did that "snapshot" of initial infantry training and being enlisted make me a better officer ? Doubt it. I was driven to be "better'" by how I was raised, what I studied, and how physically fit I was long before I got to the Army. In my fairly long life I've met many people that "thought" they could do something as well/better than someone else for any number of reasons. And until they actually try it, succeed at it, and look back at having actually done it....should probably shut the heck up.

Response by CW5 Mark Smith made Oct 13 at 2020 4:21 PM

CW5 Mark Smith — Tue, 13 Oct 2020 16:21:39 -0400

Easy question. Yes and no. The famous "it depends" enters the equation. The Marines referred to them as 'Mustangs'. If the Army had a corresponding term, I've forgotten what it was. But really the answer is, it depends upon the individual.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2023 5:39 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Mar 2023 17:39:22 -0400

I may be prejudiced, but I believe so. Of course both my father and I were mustang officers as was my father in law (still a Marine at 96). I don't know whether that is still true, but most enlisted I know weren't as badly affected by the "everyone gets a trophy" syndrome.

Response by MGySgt Rick Tyrrell made Mar 29 at 2023 8:32 PM

MGySgt Rick Tyrrell — Wed, 29 Mar 2023 20:32:28 -0400

No. An officer is a person, an enlisted is also a person. What you learn as you grow makes you better if you retain that knowledge. Then use said knowledge for good.

Response by LT William Pellegrini made Oct 5 at 2023 2:25 PM

LT William Pellegrini — Thu, 05 Oct 2023 14:25:08 -0400

I think it helps any officer of any rank if they have an understanding of what those of lower ranks, especially enlisted, are faced with on a daily basis. I sort of knew that when I went to my first squadron as an Ens. So I was assigned to the Power Plant Branch. I had no idea what they did. Tune up engines? Do jet engines get tuned up? So I went down and introduced myself to Chief Petty Office Morgan. I sort of told him that not having much of an idea about what, an new Ensign, was supposed to do, I wasn't going to insert myself into his branch, which I could tell was running as close to perfect as could be expected. I was maybe 21 and a Commissioned Officer and he was in his 40's or late 30's and a CPO. So I suggested that I would be available if they needed me for anything and quickly left the branch. I got 20 feet out the door when a First Class came running up and said the Chief wanted to talk with me. And did I get a real lesson in several things. The most important was that I was the person outsiders needed to come to if/when they had a problem or issue with the Branch. I was the person that my people came to if they needed something, be it parts, tools or leave of some sort. They taught me how to be an Officer. There were three people in the military that had life changing effects on my life. Gunnery Sargent Alfords in boot camp; CPO Morgan, and Lt jg. Hazlip, my Division head. These were the people whom I admired and respected the most, and who showed me how to be a better officer and person. Too bad they didn't stop me from being long winded huh?

Response by LT William Pellegrini made Oct 6 at 2023 1:20 PM

LT William Pellegrini — Fri, 06 Oct 2023 13:20:07 -0400

I think having experience as an enlisted man/woman gives you some insight on what the problems of those who report to you have. It also probably helps the enlisted men/women assigned to your department or branch that their officer has prior enlisted experience. So things should work out okay, unless the commission goes to the head of the new officer. Sometimes getting a promotion makes one feel that they are better than others and they start to act that way. We, officers, all operate effectively when we have the respect of our enlisted men/women. We need to understand that and act accordingly.

Response by SPC Peter Suedfeld made Mar 3 at 2024 11:37 AM

SPC Peter Suedfeld — Sun, 03 Mar 2024 11:37:14 -0500

I've always thought so. That was one reason why I dropped out of ROTC and enlisted. Three years later, I returned to college and got my commission at graduation.