Do quicker promotions lead to SSG and SGT having less power?

2015-02-16T18:33:19-05:00

Is it a result of having quickly promoted leaders that SSG and SGT now have minimized power and authority to mold troops? I am somewhat referring to the lack of physical corrective action allowed by the ucmj. I recall getting rolled left n right when I was a private. It worked and soldiers respected the NCO and not just the rank. I see this becoming a much bigger issue as time moves on.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Feb 16 at 2015 6:41 PM

2015-02-16T18:41:50-05:00

SGT Private RallyPoint Member, E5/E6's in the AF have faced a similar problem. When I came in in 1998, it was not uncommon to see someone not make E5 till they were 8+ years as well seasoned, now it is much closer to 4-5 year range. We tack on that we now see CGO's doing jobs that formerly were done by SNCO's and you have a overall watering down effect. It does not have anything to do with being able to "smoke" a troop, but the level of micromanagement that is being done from the top down at an institutional level.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2015 7:01 PM

2015-02-16T19:01:41-05:00

SGT Private RallyPoint Member I think part of the issue is not that they have a lack of corrective action, but they are not being mentored properly. There is a growing amount of Soldiers who feel that they are entitled to be promoted when they hit the time in grade/time in service. Without the ability to mentor and develop Soldiers as Soldiers before they get promoted to E-5 then to E-6 is a dying art. With condensed time to be promoted causes weaker leaders who are not aware of their responsibilities and what actions they can and cannot do. This leads to less respect for the rank or NCO depending on the unit. This of course is not true for everyone and every unit.

Response by SPC Stewart Smith made Feb 16 at 2015 7:05 PM

2015-02-16T19:05:45-05:00

You shouldn't mistake fear for respect.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Feb 16 at 2015 7:10 PM

2015-02-16T19:10:29-05:00

Although I am no longer in I have seen people get promoted that would not have gotten promoted back while I was still wearing BDUs. I agree that a smoke session or corrective training worked but they had a time and place. I will share a story where I felt decapitated as a NCO by my platoon sergeant over an incident that should have resulted in an Article-15 because she did not want to ruin the Soldiers career. I worked in a TS facility that had to maintain a minimum of two-man integrity minus bathroom, and smoke breaks. Well the Soldier got a call from his girlfriend in tears and left in the middle of shift did not tell anyone just left. The other soldier on shift thought he went to smoke since the other soldier was a smoker. Well after an hour I get called and advised of the situation. Since I was drinking I informed the soldier on shift to call our NCOIC. Well two and half hour later the soldier returns. The next day since I counsel him for his actions dereliction of duty, security violation and I recommend article 15 do to the seriousness. My platoon sergeant reviewed it and told me with the soldier in the office she was not forwarding to the 1SG or CDR and she would re-write to help the soldier. Well I will say I came about an inch from the ceiling and very close to getting written up for insubordination. So yes I understand your feelings and this was in 2004.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Feb 16 at 2015 7:58 PM

2015-02-16T19:58:30-05:00

I can only speak from my own experiences. In the Marines, we promote to E4 & E5 we promote based on "statistical information" (aka cutting score, by MOS). The USMC determines how many E4/E5 they need in each MOS, and then ranks everyone in order. You either above the line or not. If the MOS does not need any E4/E5, the MOS is "closed for promotion" for that quarter.

For E6+, there are "promotion boards" conducted by HQMC yearly. There are three groupings. "In zone," "Below Zone," and "Above zone." The "above" are people who have been reviewed before and passed over. The "below" are people who are what can best be called second tier, because of time in grade or time in service requirements, while the "in zone" are those in the optimal "promotable" status.

That's a (very) rough explanation of how are system works. Using my own promotion timeline. I picked up Cpl (E4) at just under 2 years. That's fairly fast, especially in a Grunt BN (not so much for an Intel Analyst though). It made me Junior for Time in Service compared to other Cpls, by A LOT. I ended up working with a lot of LCpls who had 1+ Time in Service on me. But Rank > Service. I had to learn fast. I had good leaders, great mentors, and I wasn't going to by "that guy."

It took me almost 3 years to pick up Sgt, again we're promoted on "statistical" information (cutting score). I picked up shortly after reenlisting. This was at just over 4.5 years, in 1999. Did I have "minimized power & authority to mold troops?" I don't think so. I'd actually say far from it. But the Marine Corps is (was?) a different beast.

Now, I knew guys who took longer to pick up, through no fault of their own. Guys who pinned on right as they approached high year tenure.

As for physical corrective action, honestly it's mostly an unnecessary tool. There are just so many better ways to make someone hate life.

The biggest thing is taking ownership of our responsibilities. If a person is unwilling to be an NCO, nothing is going to change that.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2015 3:00 AM

2015-02-17T03:00:57-05:00

Although I don't see any issues with scuffing up a Soldier that has temporarily lost their way, it got way out of hand and Soldiers got hurt. The Army in turn blew "hazing" way out of proportion and now you can't even drop a Soldier for a few pushups in most units (unless they need extra training on pushups).

With that being said, I don't think young NCOs understand their power and authority. Nobody has ever explained it to them, they put on the stripes and just do what they have seen their NCOs do. When you are promoted to Sergeant your CSM should have a NCO indoctrination ceremony for everyone promoted to Sergeant, following that ceremony there should be a NCOPD on power and authority.

If you haven't already I highly suggest you read AR 600-20 Army Command Policy and FM 7-22.7 The Army Noncommissioned Officers Guide. These are great publications to help you understand your power and authority and where it comes from. You can be a great leader without "scuffing up" the only tool in your arsenal.

Good Luck!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2015 1:13 PM

2015-02-17T13:13:23-05:00

I don't think that the faster promotions caused the changes, but I am sure that they influenced it somehow. Mostly I see it as a change in society in general and with the younger generation coming in and replacing older people like me.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Feb 17 at 2015 2:52 PM

2015-02-17T14:52:23-05:00

Indirectly. Fast promotions lead to incompetent NCO's. Incompetent NCO's erode the power base of the Corps. So yes, but indirectly...

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Jun 17 at 2016 10:02 AM

2016-06-17T10:02:34-04:00

I think that there are a few factors at work that have led to some of the issues facing the NCO Corps today: 1) Too many automatic promotions were executed when we were a nation at war, leading to NCOs that didn't have the experience and "seasoning" that their NCOs had earlier; 2) promotions to the Sr NCO ranks led to a lot of experienced NCOs getting passed over because of the amount of TIS that they had in favor of those with less, Army getting more longevity out of those promotions I guess, which led to less experienced leadership away from the combat zones; 3) a serious lack of mentoring from the top down, this goes back to the lack of experience, when I as a SFC have more experience in a position than the 1SG of a particular unit and have it expressed to me that I need to mentor the 1SG, "Houston, we have a problem!", it's supposed to be the reverse and 4) the definite change in society that has led to a lot of younger Soldiers/NCOs with a sense of self-entitlement, thinking that they deserve a promotion simply based on the fact that they hit certain TIS/TIG requirements, regardless of their actual experience and/or job performance.

Response by SSG Loyd Gant made Jun 23 at 2016 2:29 AM

2016-06-23T02:29:01-04:00

having survived in early 70' with the last of the Vietnam draftees and the 80' all volunteers armed forces and early 90' with the onset of the new boss program i ve seen and have been apart of promotion process, where in the combat arms as a leader there isn't time for any one under my rank, or above (depending on situations ) to question my authority you do as you told at the completion of task and/or mission if there are questions about was it legal or not can be discussed if a problem still exist go up the chain of command, and back in the day you as a leader had to take that young service member give him/her responsibility and follow it up AAR, once that service member has been promoted reassign him/her to a different Squad, Plt, Co, or Bn for their benefit things seems to function a lot smoother by moving that young SGT/SSG early they are given opportunities to reach their full potential