Do services still train with Atropine injectors? Do you remember doing so if you're a Vet?

SN Greg Wright — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 00:14:45 -0500

Man, I hated those things. Was terrified of them, really. Slam it against your thigh if you thought you might be exposed, but slam it into your heart if you WERE exposed. I mean....sure. If it comes to that, I imagine anyone would do it to save themselves, but...damn. The thought sure sucks!

My first time, I couldn't do it. Even though I knew it wouldn't fire. Our Chief was walking up and down the line, and it took him stopping in front of me, folding his arms, and giving me that good old Goat Locker stare before I did it.

Do services still train for that? Did it bother you? The likelihood, I have to think, of a chemical attack is much lower now than when I was in towards the end of the Cold War.

Response by SPC Bobby Coble made Jan 6 at 2016 12:18 AM

SPC Bobby Coble — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 00:18:47 -0500

At Fort Sill, in 91, we used dummy injectors for training.

Response by SFC Pete Kain made Jan 6 at 2016 12:21 AM

SFC Pete Kain — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 00:21:23 -0500

In Korea 1975, we had them as issue at Camp liberty Bell, During training I saw one popped though the top of a footlocker. Gotta be honest, the nerve agent was an option after that demo. Scared the hell out of me.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Jan 6 at 2016 12:24 AM

Capt Seid Waddell — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 00:24:58 -0500

When I was in we did.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2016 3:54 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 03:54:54 -0500

We trained with them, but don't recall anyone having any concerns in trainlng as we used dummy ones. But once a year or so we would have refresher training where they would deploy a live one, and it got everyones attention for sure.

One thing different though was that we never were trained to stick it in the heart under any conditions. Even if you were sure you or a buddy were exposed and twitching, you still put it in the thigh or butt.

Response by MSgt Tim Dimon made Jan 6 at 2016 3:55 AM

MSgt Tim Dimon — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 03:55:04 -0500

I remember training with them right up until the near end of my career.

Response by SPC Adam Shaw made Jan 6 at 2016 3:58 AM

SPC Adam Shaw — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 03:58:14 -0500

I remember doing the training in basic , but never saw it again after that even when we deployed in 07.

Response by SCPO Joshua I made Jan 6 at 2016 4:53 AM

SCPO Joshua I — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 04:53:16 -0500

You wouldn't use an auto injector on your heart. It wouldn't work anyway.

Response by MSgt David Webb made Jan 6 at 2016 5:14 AM

MSgt David Webb — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 05:14:17 -0500

I worked in the allergy and immunizations clinic of the base hospital. One day a patient brought in a couple expired ones for us to dispose of. I tossed them in my desk drawer and told him I'd take care of it. I took them home and my roommate and I did some experimentation. Turns out that needle will easily penetrate 1/2" thick plywood! I guess' that's in case it has to go through a rib to get to your heart.

Response by SCPO Charles Thomas "Tom" Canterbury made Jan 6 at 2016 5:41 AM

SCPO Charles Thomas "Tom" Canterbury — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 05:41:08 -0500

SN Greg Wright - We used the training pens but only had a few of them for the training. In all honestly I think there is only minimal training attention given to CBRNE now. Our chemical attack drill was essentially a walk through on my last ship. I remember being at GQ for most of the day and getting box lunches delivered to our GQ stations to simulate battle messing.

Response by 1stSgt Michael Gartland made Jan 6 at 2016 5:47 AM

1stSgt Michael Gartland — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 05:47:32 -0500

We used to carry paper cutouts of atropine injectors in our gas mask cases. I saw the demonstrators a few times, too. I did not look forward to actually using it for real!

My 5-year old granddaughter is allergic to peanuts and has to carry an epi-pen. That scares me, too.

Response by SCPO Jason McLaughlin made Jan 6 at 2016 6:25 AM

SCPO Jason McLaughlin — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 06:25:03 -0500

Response by PO3 David Fries made Jan 6 at 2016 6:27 AM

PO3 David Fries — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 06:27:04 -0500

Used the dummy injectors all the time while I was in FMSS and then the few times when we did our fun MOPP gear activities.

Response by MSgt Michael Durkee made Jan 6 at 2016 8:11 AM

MSgt Michael Durkee — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 08:11:31 -0500

Yes, we would use the dummy injectors for CBRNE classes and when I deployed for Desert Shield they issued us the real McCoys. As a few people mentioned, you wouldn't place the injector against your heart - it's meant to be applied and "fired" into the meaty part of your outer thigh. In my case that was/is an oxymoron of sorts, I'm 6'4" and weigh 180lbs wet...there is NO meaty part to my thigh :P

Response by COL Mikel J. Burroughs made Jan 6 at 2016 9:01 AM

COL Mikel J. Burroughs — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 09:01:13 -0500

SN Greg Wright I can't remember that far back, but it was definitely around the Gulf War timeframe for me - everyone thought Sadam would you leathal chemicals, so there was a big train up period. After that it seemed to really die off, but I've been out of it for a while, so hopefully some of the active duty members can bring me up-to-speed!

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Jan 6 at 2016 9:27 AM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 09:27:09 -0500

I was trained in the use every year during refresher training for CBRN. We had the spring loaded dummy trainers and even though you knew it was the dummy, you always questioned were they the real ones or dummys until you hit your thigh with it...you were required to train with it. There was a story one time of an instructor grabbing a live one thinking it was a dummy and hit his thigh like he was supposed to and it went off. They had to take him to the hospital because it raced his heart so bad. I definitely remember the training but never was I told to put it in my heart. We were issued three. You had to hit the first one and bend the needle through the pockets on your greens so they would know you had used it. If nothing happened 15 minutes later you had to hit the second one. I am glad that I never had to use it...I would like to think I could have done it to survive but thinking about it...actually performing the task would be difficult.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Jan 6 at 2016 10:02 AM

Capt Richard I P. — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 10:02:33 -0500

By the time I was trained it was always thigh. Which makes sense, its a large muscle. The CBRNE officers were very clear that the heart injection was a complete myth (at least by that point in 2008-2009) which makes sense. 1. Bones in the way 2. Penetrating cardiac muscle seems contraindicated like, all the time and 3. Can't miss the thigh. I have a sneaking suspicion someone who was doing that training for you wanted to mess with people or had seen too many movies and not checked with medical or CBRNE folks

Response by MSgt John Taylor made Jan 6 at 2016 10:09 AM

MSgt John Taylor — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 10:09:10 -0500

At the tail end of DESERT STORM, we were getting ready to go home, I found an auto injector in the trash pile. Being the curious type, I grabbed it and stuck it into a clear bottle of shampoo. I was surprised that the needle was about 2" long and left a bubble in the shampoo about 2" in diameter. Also, it didn't have any problem shooting in thru the plastic of the bottle. Cool stuff!

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2016 10:59 AM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 10:59:34 -0500

I don't know why every one is saying in the hart. I am certified CBRNE instructor for Navy (Seabees) Ground troops and we never taught to put in the hart it was always in the meat of the thigh or butt. If some one is passed out you give all 3 at one time make down the time. I retired two years ago and it was still being taught. We are direct support for CBRNE to Army Chemical units in theater. We would set up operational decon sites to help every get cleaned and out of hot zone. We do use dummy ones in our decon drills and grad units on the proper use of them. It does work and so do the suits part of getting certified is going through the live agent training at Fort lost in the woods.

Response by SSgt Terry P. made Jan 6 at 2016 11:22 AM

SSgt Terry P. — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 11:22:10 -0500

SN Greg Wright Hell,Greg,i thought they were standard issue in combat.I know we had them as part of our gear in 68-69-70.But i am an old guy.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Jan 6 at 2016 11:43 AM

LTC Stephen F. — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 11:43:45 -0500

Yes, I certainly do remember nerve agent antidote injectors SN Greg Wright.
The demonstrations of what the injector would do to inanimate objects was very informative and shocking the first time you saw it.
During the Cold War we were trained to inject ourselves with our own injector in the thigh if we recognized any of the nerve agent symptoms. Then we would use our buddies injectors to inject those who were still alive but incapable of injecting themselves. It reminded me a lot of the airline instruction to put your own mask on when oxygen was low and then put one on your child.

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made Jan 6 at 2016 11:49 AM

Capt Mark Strobl — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 11:49:37 -0500

SN Greg Wright - I just remember our NBC NCO during training: He reflected, "If you need to use this, somebody is about to die." Uh... OK... Thanks, SSgt!

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Jan 6 at 2016 12:28 PM

CPT Jack Durish — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 12:28:06 -0500

I well remember the sound of all those fake injectors hitting our chairs. No one actually pressed it to their legs. Interestingly, my wife and I carry a similar auto injector, an Epi-Pen, when we care for our granddaughter who is allergic to peanuts. You can bet I'd use it on her if she were exposed and unable to breathe. Do they still train with them today? Sorry, I can't say...

Response by SGT Patrick Reno made Jan 6 at 2016 1:57 PM

SGT Patrick Reno — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 13:57:12 -0500

I remember those, hated mop training. Wouldn't ever want to have to fight all suited up like that. While in Berlin we had our MOP gear for training, but always had a real set sealded up on top of our lockers.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2016 3:39 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 15:39:23 -0500

NBC training as a whole fell by the wayside around 2005. Replaced by searches, Urban Ops, and Convoy training.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2016 4:05 PM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 16:05:16 -0500

SN Greg Wright, It is also worth noting that CBRNE for ground is a little different than for ships. That is why the Navy has two courses taught at Fort Lost in Woods. One is for ground and the other is for ship's The difference is ships have systems to self decon and maneuver out of the cloud or hot zone quicker than ground troops. On the ground you have to plot your way out of the cone find a clean water source and a lot of other factors. The MTVRS due have some chemical defensive measures in them but you still need to have it washed down out of zone there is a lot to it. Point being is it is easer for ships to get away or stay out of hot zones so this could be one reason I hat to say it,
that it is not as big of an issue for surface fleet.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Jan 6 at 2016 5:30 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Wed, 06 Jan 2016 17:30:42 -0500

Oh being the DCPO for my Division I remember having those buggers, Injector Pens, Industrial Size, Industrial Strength. Sure Glad never had to used them. they were in my GQ Bag with my Gas Mask and that is where it stayed. As far as Atropine. If I am not mistaken it is used also for treating Shock from a Drug Reaction and yes it was Injected into me after I reacted to a Drug used for Surgery when I was 7. Shock wasn't that bad, watching the world melt and turn into a Mellow LSD Trip as my Heart slowed to stop. What sucked was the return trip after Atropine. Heartbeat set at Hummingbird Mode, Felt like 1,000 beats per minute and violently sick.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2016 5:17 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 10 Jan 2016 17:17:48 -0500

I've been retired for a bit over a year now so I can't accurately state if they are still being used. I do remember using them for training many times. The best one was when the NCO in charge took one of the atropine injectors, a real one mind you, stabbed a cardboard box lid then showed us how far it shoots out. I was like "WOW"!!!