Do we push our selectees too hard?

LT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:33:15 -0400

http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/2015/09/15/chief-selectee-dies-after-run-day-before-pinning-cpo-365-season/72335738/

Chief selectee dies after run, day before pinning

A first class petty officer one day shy of pinning on chief anchors died the Tuesday morning after collapsing during a run.

Response by CPO Emmett (Bud) Carpenter made Sep 15 at 2015 7:37 PM

CPO Emmett (Bud) Carpenter — Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:37:17 -0400

No. I'm sorry for the loss of a fine petty officer but I don't thank it has anything to do with being pushed too hard.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Sep 15 at 2015 7:52 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:52:44 -0400

I'm not trying to be callous, but if someone dies after a run it wasn't because they were pushed too hard, it was because of a pre-existing condition. The run wasn't the "cause," it was the "trigger."

It was just as likely the celebratory "fun" with the wife after pinning would have resulted would have resulted in the issue.

Attached is an article regarding "Sudden Death" (from running). I do a lot of endurance running, and this happens "occasionally" (not common, but not uncommon). I have never heard of it being the "run's fault."

http://www.runnersworld.com/health/sudden-death-and-running

Can You Prevent "Sudden Death"?

Dear Running Doc,Given Ryan Shay's death at the Olympic Marathon Trials, I'm nervous. I'm 30 years old, run 60 miles per week, have done 12 marathons, and love running. I have yearly checkups and my doctor has said I have an enlarged heart due to my training; he has cleared me to run. It sounds exactly like Ryan. What can I do to prevent my own "sudden death" while exercising? - Stephen R., Great Neck, NY

Response by PO1 Russell Henson made Sep 15 at 2015 7:54 PM

PO1 Russell Henson — Tue, 15 Sep 2015 19:54:39 -0400

Two ways to look at it. One , it was his time. Two, it was fate unless foul play was involved

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 15 at 2015 8:12 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Sep 2015 20:12:15 -0400

No We do not

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Sep 15 at 2015 8:52 PM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Tue, 15 Sep 2015 20:52:53 -0400

no we don't. This tragic event may have happened under other circumstances

Response by CPO Jason Meier made Sep 16 at 2015 7:46 AM

CPO Jason Meier — Wed, 16 Sep 2015 07:46:53 -0400

Honestly I do not believe so. When I went through my Induction it was just like going through work-ups but with the training and skill-set exercises that are needed to become the Chief. I believe that the Navy has gotten away from proper physical training throughout. Easier standards and less focus on physical fitness which keeps us all fit for duty. Now there may be some Chiefs that need to bone up on basic signs and symptoms of non-trauma medical conditions (Basic First-Aid) and be able to monitor a selectee's condition better so that the selectees are not put into danger. But overall, I do not believe it is too hard.

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 16 at 2015 11:02 AM

LTJG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:02:22 -0400

No.

Response by SCPO Joshua I made Sep 16 at 2015 11:51 AM

SCPO Joshua I — Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:51:08 -0400

On a 1.5 mile run? No, that's a requirement for everyone in the Navy.

The physical requirements placed on Chief selectees are relatively easy. People die from regular exercise on occasion, whether part of or not part of Phase II and while tragic in each case it is not an indictment of the Navy's pt program.

Response by MCPO Douglas Pennington made Sep 16 at 2015 12:20 PM

MCPO Douglas Pennington — Wed, 16 Sep 2015 12:20:49 -0400

The man was on a PFT run of 1.5 miles the way i understand it. Selectee's are not pushed hard enough this day and time. CPO 365 has basically taken the selectee from learning humility, professionalism and leadership to sitting in a classroom book learning. I know, i know the world is changing, things need to change but still certain things should remain. Enough of being PC. The Chief Petty Officer is the backbone of the Navy and must be able to deal with stress's and strains. It wasn't pushing him that caused this but maybe some underlying medical problem. Was the selectee properly screened for the PFT, was he physically fit? Were there outside forces at work here that someone didn't or couldn't identify? In my own opinion the Navy has gotten soft. PFT is required but to what extent? So LT don't lay this on pushing selectee's too hard, lay this on underlying factors that his command might not have diagnosed in time.

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Sep 16 at 2015 1:00 PM

LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow — Wed, 16 Sep 2015 13:00:52 -0400

This is a tragedy, but - was this sailor cleared medically before the run? This is required of PFT performance. Was he obese? IF so, why was he a CPO selectee? Did he have an aneurysm or other undiscovered ticking time bomb? Only the autopsy will tell...

Response by PO2 Steven Erickson made Sep 16 at 2015 6:44 PM

PO2 Steven Erickson — Wed, 16 Sep 2015 18:44:24 -0400

Finite Heartbeat Theory. Sorry.

Response by PO2 Nick Burke made Sep 17 at 2015 9:34 PM

PO2 Nick Burke — Thu, 17 Sep 2015 21:34:26 -0400

How is making them run pushing them too hard? There had to be other factors ie. health.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Sep 18 at 2015 2:52 AM

PO1 John Miller — Fri, 18 Sep 2015 02:52:07 -0400

I think the Chief Select probably had some underlying health issues. I've seen a picture of him and he didn't appear to be obese. Plus, if he had been doing Phase II he "should" have been physically fit enough to complete a PFT. Only an autopsy will really tell what killed him.

So to answer your question I do not think the Navy is pushing the Chief Selects too hard.

Response by SCPO Jeff Priest made Sep 18 at 2015 10:06 AM

SCPO Jeff Priest — Fri, 18 Sep 2015 10:06:31 -0400

I really do not know if they are pushed too hard today but I can say I was extremely disappointed three years ago when I flew to San Diego to be a part of my younger brother's "indoctrination" only to be told that things had changed and guests were not allowed. They no longer performed an initiation and "old goats" like me would not understand. I was shocked to learn that a lot of the history has been changed. I guess as part of the kinder, gentler Navy, we have stopped training leaders and are going to accept managers. I wrote a post yesterday about excited I would be to return to service with the shipmates I miss. I am not sure I would fit in within today's Navy. I participated in a voluntary initiation and never regretted it one bit. I am thankful for Master Chief Jerry Hauter at Little Creek and Master Chief Dave Duncan because they took the time to explain a lot of the "behind the scenes" reasons for each "lesson" I experienced. This may be why they have also retired. This and HYT.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Sep 18 at 2015 10:42 AM

SSG Warren Swan — Fri, 18 Sep 2015 10:42:22 -0400

I cannot comment on if he's pushed too hard, but I can comment that the NCO Corps lost another member with this Chiefs passing. I wish his family the best in a very bad situation, and in his passing maybe something can be learned that could help others. Fair Winds and Following Seas Chief!

Response by MCPO Dan Whittle made Sep 18 at 2015 7:52 PM

MCPO Dan Whittle — Fri, 18 Sep 2015 19:52:35 -0400

First, RIP Shipmate.

Second, he became a Chief Petty Officer when selected by the CPO board, therefore he was NOT a First Class Petty Officer when he died. The "Pinning" is a formality. I'm not looking to argue the E-7 vs CPO bs, only to show proper respect to a fellow Chief.

Third, no we do NOT push too hard.

AFCM(AW/SW) retired.

Response by CPO Mark Brewer made Sep 18 at 2015 10:35 PM

CPO Mark Brewer — Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:35:19 -0400

No. CPO initiation has become too watered down. It seems the only thing the MCPON wants slugs to do is hold hands and sing kumbafricking ya. Wouldn't want them to be overly stressed. WTH is going on? We're at war. If you can't handle an old CPO style initiation, how are you going to handle enemy fire?

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2015 9:39 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Sep 2015 09:39:05 -0400

I don't think they are pushed too hard. Maybe some of them should be in better shape before getting selected. It is the military after all and you should be able to do the basics. It seems this was an underlying medical issue though (speculation).

Response by CPO Anthony Picciano made Oct 22 at 2015 12:42 AM

CPO Anthony Picciano — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 00:42:58 -0400

I was a Chief at 9 years. You mean do you run the selectees to hard. I remember in 2004 as a Chief trying to train new selectees. Get them ready for the role of a Chief. I was informed by a so called Master Chief. We do not do that anymore. One of the jobs as a Chief was to train joiner officers. Running does not do it. Push you mean run yes is the short answer. I watched a couple of so called training for a while. Shook me head and thought to myself. Poor E-7 wonder if they will ever learn what a Real Chiefs job is. Retired 2006.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2015 2:59 PM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 14:59:47 -0400

I'm permanently handicapped after a "Phase 2" workout session with no medical supervision and my CMC leading the evolution. The "Mess" has not only not advanced into the 20'th century but in many ways this 2-3 month period ends good sailors careers and lives. This isn't the first loss and won't be the last until the "Mess" is disbanded and the CNO reigns in E-9's and the MCPON to read regulations on hazing and core values.