Do you believe counseling soldiers has better results than making them do PT?

2017-09-08T11:02:45-04:00

I've noticed that soldiers are always different especially when taking punishment. But with the army going away from "smoke sessions" I've noticed a drastic drop in discipline in soldiers. The new generation does not care about counseling statements in my opinion, and the leadership is so focused on kicking them out instead of molding them into better people and better soldiers. Thoughts???

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2017 11:06 AM

2017-09-08T11:06:25-04:00

I use what I was taught which is PT now I do incorporate verbal counseling because that helps and I think you need to let them know why they are doing PT and how to fix there short comings. As for just using a DA 4856 to mold and correct soldiers does not work and because of that mentality the discipline amongst the new junior enlisted has dropped .

Response by Sgt Wayne Wood made Sep 8 at 2017 11:14 AM

2017-09-08T11:14:12-04:00

Can ya yell at 'em while they sweat?

Response by LTC Monte Anderson made Sep 8 at 2017 11:14 AM

2017-09-08T11:14:52-04:00

Depends on what results you're after.

Response by 1SG Johnny Carter made Sep 8 at 2017 11:19 AM

2017-09-08T11:19:19-04:00

Depends on the situation really. Not everything has to be a written counseling. I do believe that certain policy changes do cripple the NCO Corp from doing their jobs and yes today's Soldier comes with a new challenges. But to me a Good NCO can effectively mold a Soldier who is willing to learn and better themselves. Not all Soldiers in today (new or old) want to be a team member and go above and beyond to set themselves ahead of their peers. I am a firm believer that our Army wants the best of the best and to be the best you have to be ahead of your peers. Smoke sessions to me was never an effective tool. Soldier shows up late for formation you make him do push ups till he's arms fall off doesn't teach him time management. As society changes so do we as Leaders. Sometime you have to think outside the box and come up with new ways to effectively communicate with todays youth. But understand when you have that Soldier who is always doing his own thing you have to effectively make a paper trail to show that you have exhausted every resource to help them so that if in fact they are not rehabilitated then they must go home. No reason to be a burden on the COC when so many great Soldiers want to be trained to some day Lead. Just my thoughts.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2017 11:22 AM

2017-09-08T11:22:38-04:00

It depends on the person. Getting "smoked' just made me resent a NCO more. It honestly didn't do anything and usually it was part of mass punishment.

I look at it this way: My dad never had to lay a hand on my brothers and I growing up and somehow we learned discipline. We respected him. Did we get into trouble? Yes - but our dad simply yelling at us was enough to make us think twice before we did it again. I think it's more the disappointment from him than anything. I think I got spanked once in my entire childhood and it was barely a pat. Otherwise we got grounded. Usually it was too the yard or the house. If we really messed up we got grounded to our room and they took everything out except the bed and dresser and an alarm clock. No books. No toys. Just lay there and stare at the ceiling.

To this day if my dad would yell at me I would probably get scared. I saw him yell at my stepnieces when my stepsister lived with him and my stepmom. I had a flashback. I was like oh shit. My dad doesn't tolerate much bs. But he never, ever once had to hit us or use a broom or a switch or a belt or anything. He said he got the yardstick when he was little. He said he was never going to do that to us and he didn't. I think I respect my dad MORE that he didn't.

Also - in AIT toward the end I think my class had just gotten out of the field. A bunch of people went out and some minors got caught drinking. It was the third weekend in a row someone got caught out of the company. So everyone in our class lost phase (but we only had like a week left to graduate) and then our DS had us all outside. Did he smoke us? Nope. We wish he would have actually. The pure look of disappointment on his face was worse than a smoking. It really was. Most of us did say "man I wish he had just smoked us."

You don't have to smoke someone to instill discipline. It's going to be harder if they grew up without it. But you can teach it but they have to respect you as a leader as well.

Response by MSG Keith Folger made Sep 8 at 2017 11:25 AM

2017-09-08T11:25:16-04:00

No matter how you try to mentor a soldier if they decide that they've had enough and want to quit there's nothing you can do then your commander takes over and decides to retain them and basically throws you under a bus as a leader. On the reserve side is somewhat different retention rules than regular Army.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2017 11:29 AM

2017-09-08T11:29:11-04:00

I think it depends on your organization, climate, and level of professionalism. If you In-Process a Soldier correctly, introduce them to the Chain of Command, provide them with the units History, regulations, Training guidance, expectations, ect, then I think counselings work as a written path to chart goals. // As for a drastic drop in discipline. That is an organizational issue. Standards are just that- standards. If a Soldier fails to meet the Standard then they are re-trained. The Non Commissioned Officer Corps has this task. The issue here is too many Soldiers are allowed to be E-5 and they never become Non Commissioned Officers of the Profession of Arms. They are merely wearing the chevrons without accepting the responsibility and accountability that comes with the promotion. So, Introduce all new members a specific way to the organization. Get them acclimated to the culture. Give them the expectations of the unit and leaders. Put it all in writing. Have the Soldier write out their goals on a timeline chart and then have them sign it. Its a contract. Now go train and repeat.

Response by SPC Casey Ashfield made Sep 8 at 2017 11:45 AM

2017-09-08T11:45:32-04:00

Depends on the soldier. As a junior enlisted put in a leadership position, I had soldiers I could counsel everyday and not see a long term result. Those were the soldiers that learned they did something wrong by shoveling gravel from one pile to another. I also had significantly smarter soldiers where useless PT tasks just showed toxic leadership and created disillusioned morale, and thus lower retention. I always believed the most important feature of a leader is knowing your soldiers and what works for them.

Response by SGT Matthew Sesar made Sep 8 at 2017 11:49 AM

2017-09-08T11:49:34-04:00

No, never.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2017 11:54 AM

2017-09-08T11:54:51-04:00

I think your point about the new generation not caring about counseling is valid. Really depends on the soldier. Those who have no care for their career probably won't be impacted by any punishment.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Sep 8 at 2017 11:56 AM

2017-09-08T11:56:32-04:00

Particularly for good order & discipline, I always felt that corrective training was better in most situations, unless the problem is substantial or there is a need to build a paper trial in order to lay the groundwork for chaptering someone out.

Smoking a Joe is an immediate response to what is generally a minor issue in need of correction on both an individual level or on a group level. I'm not much of a fan of mass punishment, but that too has its place; what's the alternative, mass counselings? "Platoon, you missed the time hack. Drop and gimme a pen!"

In and of itself, while a well crafted counseling may set forth expectations ("well crafted" being the key), they neither punish wrongdoing nor reinforce correct actions all that much and once a counseling is finally done, this form of punishment/correction/etc is so far removed from the incident in question as to lessen the impact even further. Besides, this requires the counselor and the soldier(s) to take even more time away from their normal duty day than all but the most extreme smoke sessions. I guarantee I learned more from being smoked than I ever did being counseled.

Actually, I never got a negative counseling now that I think of it, but if I had...

Yes, counselings do have their place; and yes, this is a profession. The big difference is that this is a profession of arms, it is not like any civilian profession, and should not be treated as such-at least not entirely. There are some methods of operating in this singular profession, tested tried and true over a millennia that should be allowed to remain, and not cast aside to appease new sensibilities.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2017 11:57 AM

2017-09-08T11:57:25-04:00

Well iv never been counsiled negatively iv been in for a year and usually get a free pt session with my team leader i say it probably varies person to person but as an individual pain and repitition will teach me quicker than writing on paper

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2017 11:58 AM

2017-09-08T11:58:50-04:00

Counseling and extra training go hand in hand... that said, extra training may be unpleasant, however it is not punishment. If your extra training isn't focused on helping someone meet the standard, you are not doing it right.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2017 12:06 PM

2017-09-08T12:06:58-04:00

People respond to few things more than they respond to pain. Besides that, I've found that there are 2 things you can take in order to get the attention of soldiers. Their time and their money. Given the choices between taking my time or money or smoking me out in the pit, I'll take the pit every time. As long as the smoke session isn't harmful it can be the best motivator. It hurts, it's easy to remember, and there's no long-lasting negative effect on the career of the soldier in question.

Response by SGT Andrew Dejesus made Sep 8 at 2017 12:21 PM

2017-09-08T12:21:09-04:00

So everyone has good points and both seem vital and play an important role in the foundation of building soldiers, so should we train ncos like myself more on how to properly give a counseling in detail because in my opinion a Good counseling statement should be by standard with the format but that's it everything else should be different per soldier but of course everyone knows that, or should we train ncos more on showing restraint when smoking and providing purpose? Train them on how not to let emotions intrude on the training they are giving their soldier?

Response by SGT Aaron P. made Sep 8 at 2017 12:22 PM

2017-09-08T12:22:59-04:00

I had good experience with both! Some soldiers responded extremely well to the paperwork, and others extremely well to the PT. There are some cases, where I gave them an option, and when the PT failed to work, the paper trail started! Either way, your approach is going to be based on what type of leader you are!

Response by SGT Tony Clifford made Sep 8 at 2017 1:18 PM

2017-09-08T13:18:37-04:00

I've had two problems with the shift towards counseling as the primary means of correcting soldiers behavior. One is that 18 and 19 year olds don't listen. They get the counseling and shrug their shoulders then go back to what they did before. The other problem is that paperwork isn't always appropriate. In many situations soldiers have to operate in informal situations. Is it better to smoke a soldier for a momentary breach in military bearing or write them up and give them a black mark on their counseling packets? I think that obviously it should be up to the discretion of the leader, but that discretion has been taken from the NCO. This leads to a drop in discipline, and moral.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Sep 8 at 2017 3:28 PM

2017-09-08T15:28:51-04:00

They both have a purpose. However, making them do PT is and always has been misunderstood. If you are using PT as a coaching technique you should be doing it with the Soldier!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2017 3:34 PM

2017-09-08T15:34:22-04:00

I remember as a company commander our battalion commander actually counseled, in writing, our battalion CSM about something or another because they did not get along and could never agree on anything...supposedly the CSM said something along the lines of, "What...does this mean I ain't gonna make E10?" I think that a lot of younger Soldiers have that same mentality...except there is a hell of a big difference between an E4/E5 and an E9...and the thing is, PT can break that mentality.

Response by CPL Brendan Hayes made Sep 8 at 2017 3:46 PM

2017-09-08T15:46:09-04:00

Admittedly, I'm much more old school, but on the spot correction works for most mistakes a troop would make. You drop 'em, explain why you dropped 'em, and continue on mission. If there is a recurrent issue, you start the paperwork trail. Both have their place but, from my perspective, there is nothing wrong with dropping a soldier for minor infractions.

As a side note, I do remember wall-to-wall counseling as well (also effective in certain situations).

Response by SSG Martin Reyna made Sep 8 at 2017 3:52 PM

2017-09-08T15:52:44-04:00

I would take a smoking before I gave up my money anytime. I would have to say that some counseling is effective. For me, I could do PT all day and laugh about later (I still remember the pain), but when I was counseled by certain NCO's or Officers that I respected and looked up to, it had a profound effect on me.. So I believe that if a soldier looks up to you and respects you a counseling can be really effective. In my times I noticed that a combination of the two was the most effective.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2017 5:51 PM

2017-09-08T17:51:54-04:00

I'm a firm believer that PT is counseling. Somewhere along the line people in the Army started to believe that counseling is a piece of paper and not a conversation. That piece of paper is just a record of a conversation.
Most Soldiers don't give a crap about your shiny piece of paper because it has no immediate effect on their lives.

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Sep 8 at 2017 7:42 PM

2017-09-08T19:42:36-04:00

First place you have to have soldier that gives a shit and sometimes that is hard to find. When I was a 19yo E3, I had an NCO that ripped my shit to pieces, had a grown man (if you will at 19) crying. I hated him but I gave a shit and am thankful he 1) cared enough 2) had the balls to tell me how it was and 3) we were not in today's climate where I could run to someone for him hurting my feelings.

Response by 1SG Jeremy Evans made Sep 8 at 2017 8:13 PM

2017-09-08T20:13:36-04:00

Some Soldiers will not care about a negative counseling statement if there is a weak or missing plan of action to correct the deficiency or behavior. A great tool for the Soldiers that have issues but can still be molded is a BAR to Continued Service. With this, your counseling is now tied to an end state of the Soldier having 6 months to correct the behavior, or be discharged. The reasons a commander can BAR a Soldier are pretty accommodating to meet most deficiencies that your underperforming Soldiers will have. Separation under a failure to overcome a BAR will also suspend separation pay that they may be entitled to. I think that would definitely get their attention.

Response by SGT Philip Roncari made Sep 8 at 2017 8:46 PM

2017-09-08T20:46:34-04:00

Since I was in the Army when the only counseling you received was from the Chaplain my response will be a bit old school,we only had the pt option ,seemed to work pretty well in my case anyway,took a teenaged juvenile delinquent and got him to survive Vietnam ,but like I say that was then how it works with today's Service members is probably better answered by the younger generation.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2017 10:15 AM

2017-09-09T10:15:36-04:00

If every 4856 was permanent, then there would be meaning. But when they get trashed after PCSing, then what does it matter.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Sep 9 at 2017 6:08 PM

2017-09-09T18:08:03-04:00

It's not the Army's job to make somebody a better person.

Response by SPC Ransom Dawson made Sep 9 at 2017 6:12 PM

2017-09-09T18:12:13-04:00

These are young guys that don't have a clue about anything... today's generation has a lot of young people that think they are entitled.... that's what you have to change.... remould them starting with their minds and how look at a situation.... the leadership and NCOs set the direction

Response by PFC Bradley Campbell made Sep 9 at 2017 6:14 PM

2017-09-09T18:14:00-04:00

you are dead right on. cultivating recruits and privates instead of building Soldiers is second to breaking them and riding them and pushing them out. i dont propose babying anyone. but you guys are doing it wrong. we need hard well disciplined Drill Sergeants that are dedicated AND supported from above to that end. these hard working professionals need to be unleashed to do their work. shrug off the liberal damage to our beloved military. a 98 percent soldier is a problem, but kicking them out is wrong. build them up, bring them up, with your leadership and discipline and the help of all your NCO's and Jr Officers.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2017 6:14 PM

2017-09-09T18:14:25-04:00

It's true. I never cared about a counseling and I don't know anyone who does. Good old fashioned PT gets the point across. If you don't make doing wrong suck, there's nothing to enforce doing right.

Response by SFC Oddie Brown made Sep 9 at 2017 6:20 PM

2017-09-09T18:20:29-04:00

I believe you have to have tough, high standards. Individual standards should start the day you raise your right hand and swear in. I have heard the arguments you are only a trainee in basic. I say this, you are a soldier when you get off that bus and have to deal with those drill sergeants. Shut your mouth, do as your told. You don't have a damn choice. The army is not a democracy. Their are rules and regs and whether you like them or agree with them is not in your contract. Do your job, keep seeking self improvement. If you get out, leave knowing deep down inside you were the best damn whatever the army had while you were in.

Response by SFC Shane Funkhouser made Sep 9 at 2017 6:26 PM

2017-09-09T18:26:49-04:00

It's hard to mold them when they have no fear of punishment. You do what you can but at the end of the day they ( the Army ) has taken almost all power from the NCO's short of a counciling statement that the soldiers look at as a joke. The only soldiers you are going to mold are the ones that actually want to improve and be better.

Response by SFC Angela Castrovinci made Sep 9 at 2017 6:48 PM

2017-09-09T18:48:50-04:00

I'm old school. Getting smoked taught me that the Army wasn't messing around and that it's important to pay attention to detail. Getting smoked embedded the lesson in my head. If they get rid of smoking, they can pretty much forget really teaching these soldiers discipline. I say bring back smoking or our Army will become weaker and weaker.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2017 8:07 PM

2017-09-09T20:07:46-04:00

Another strategy I used is putting a Soldier on staff duty or CQ on the weekend that has made those soldiers shape up

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 9 at 2017 8:35 PM

2017-09-09T20:35:05-04:00

As a Drill Sgt I never laid hands on a Trainee, I wanted to, don't get me wrong. The "Front leaning rest position " gets attention.

Response by CPO Robert Henry made Sep 9 at 2017 8:35 PM

2017-09-09T20:35:39-04:00

I once corrected a female for unauthorized earrings, nails and hair color and bulk. It got me in trouble. I corrected a male for a fucked up hair style. It got me in trouble. I made kid shave who could not provide his shaving profile. It got me in trouble. I corrected a group of shit heads for harassing another unit, it got me in trouble. I dressed down smokers, phone talkers, head gear heroes, trouble trouble trouble. No wonder they're being kicked out, the chain of command isn't supporting the NCO's. It doesn't help that NCOs are from one generation and the JO's and up to a certain point the 0-3s are just kids themselves with more in common with the recruits and boots we aim to unfuck.

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made Sep 9 at 2017 9:01 PM

2017-09-09T21:01:04-04:00

this question gets asked quite frequently. My two cents = Smoke sessions for minor infractions is a useful tool that should never have gone away, I learned a lot of lessons through smoke sessions that still stay with me today. Case in point, My first duty station with 1-9 Cav at FT Hood back in 97. I flicked a cigarette butt into the street in front of my Battalion HQ, My CSM saw this, ordered me to get into full "Battle Rattle" and had me low crawl picking up cig butts around his BN area for the entire day. to this day, I field strip my butts and put them in my pocket. A counseling statement probably would not have embedded that lesson nearly as well.

Response by SFC Don Ward made Sep 9 at 2017 10:15 PM

2017-09-09T22:15:24-04:00

Not just the Privates that show a lack of discipline. The NCO's and Officers that I see around don't have much discipline, either.

Response by CPT Randy Zales made Sep 9 at 2017 11:02 PM

2017-09-09T23:02:10-04:00

Counseling statements are a good tool when used appropriately but an extended road march with full ruck and rubber ducks for the offender and his entire squad has always been a great attitude adjuster. Include the platoon or entire company and the BS ends real quick. The best thing is it's training, not hazing!

Response by CPL Hosea Pierce made Sep 10 at 2017 6:31 AM

2017-09-10T06:31:55-04:00

Yep even when I was in the Leadership thought motivation was telling a Soldier he was nothing instead of mentoring. Just smoke and nothing else. They were about their ownselves

Response by SFC Francisco Rosario made Sep 10 at 2017 1:31 PM

2017-09-10T13:31:51-04:00

I have used the smoke session to help improve the soldiers APFT score as well as the overall discipline. The trick is to ensure that the smoke session is not going to be detrimental to the health of the soldier. The other part is to make sure that you include what will take place in the counseling session, that way there is no argument as to the reason for the smoke session. Outline other measures to take, such as: taking their time away, money, and any right to attend any training or coveted school. Provide other forms of punishment that focus on attention to detail and provide a reason for it.

But yes, i agree that overall discipline is a major concern within the US Army these days.

Response by SFC S.t. Helms (Ret) made Sep 10 at 2017 1:59 PM

2017-09-10T13:59:44-04:00

Active:90-99
Guard:01-13
Saw no purpose in smoke sessions or counseling statements. It was a waste of my time. I... just said "hit the wall locker" or "hit the wall". What they had to do is put their nose against them and stand at attention. I'd leave them there for 15, 30 to 60 minutes. I could go on further with my squad, group, team or platoon and aircraft maintenance that needed to be accomplished.

Response by SFC David Fullmer made Sep 10 at 2017 6:11 PM

2017-09-10T18:11:42-04:00

I've noticed a steady increase in NCOs complaining about soldier discipline. Do something about it.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 11 at 2017 1:21 AM

2017-09-11T01:21:13-04:00

Just go back to the 70's and 80'S style discipline. Article 15, or field grade article 15. Instirute field drills, make them run until they puke. Set up peer pressure to help encite change. If all that fails tjere is always the ccf. Kids today feel they are owed everything, they join the military after getting a high score on a military type game. Too bad cotton farms arent regularly available, picking cotton would drive that sorry streak out of them in no time.

Response by PFC Theresa Dominguez made Sep 11 at 2017 7:09 PM

2017-09-11T19:09:20-04:00

I was a hard soldier to mold but they did good with me with smoking sessions if PT. It changed my attitude and made me who I am today. Now days soldiers have no drive and become instant losers after they get out. It's sad I bought my first house when I got out I was 22!! I would have never done that going to college at some liberal shithole state.

Response by CW2 Stephen Pate made Sep 12 at 2017 2:54 AM

2017-09-12T02:54:01-04:00

I always saw a little physical training helpful in my career progression. I think correcting a Soldier by making them sweat is a tool for NCOs to use but was taken away. We all know why this happened too, its because there were far too many power tripping, asshole NCOs who could dish it out but couldn't take it, or they took it too far.

I have found that timely, honest, monthly professional growth counselings along with a few "smoke sessions" work best. Go ahead and mention any extra curricular PT that was done during the month on those counselings as well as a way to back up any future UCMJ.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2017 7:11 PM

2017-10-05T19:11:29-04:00

I've found that instead of "smoking" Soldiers, making them stand on one foot and rub their stomach and the top of their head at the same time while standing in front of their peers while explaining why they are there is quite effective.

Response by PO3 Chris Gaimari made Feb 2 at 2018 1:54 PM

2018-02-02T13:54:54-05:00

Couldn’t agree more

Response by PFC Hector Borrelli made Feb 2 at 2018 2:54 PM

2018-02-02T14:54:45-05:00

I think that you can mold your soldiers with discipline and encouragement without having to destroy morale. I think that if you enlist, then you should know what you are signing in for and not expect a walk in the park. But I did notice when I got to my duty station that there is a lot indiscipline and leadership taking a liking to these undisciplined mostly younger soldiers and isolating the disciplined and quiet ones. To me it was taking care of business, not being antisocial, but maturity and discipline first while NCO’s are shooting the shit with these kids, that really took the air out of me. More discipline and less fraternizing in my opinion.

Response by LT Karl Shumaker made Feb 2 at 2018 4:32 PM

2018-02-02T16:32:11-05:00

I think all services are headed downward mainly because of misdirected priorities. Too much PC and loss of focus on primary mission. Academy officers that do not realize the value of senior NCO's.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2018 4:38 PM

2018-02-02T16:38:15-05:00

Smoke sessions made me into the soldier I am i would rather see more smoke sessions than people being kicked for no incentive

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2018 4:57 PM

2018-02-02T16:57:22-05:00

All true. Still think creative corrective training is the best. No need to go medieval but a good smoke session or barracks cleaning after hours always got my attention in the 80’s.

Response by SGT Sabrina Quiroz made Feb 2 at 2018 6:44 PM

2018-02-02T18:44:00-05:00

I think that if a soldier wants to be a better soldier then he/she will be a better soldier self motivation to exceed the standards will bring a soldier on track. However, if there is no drive for self improvement then as an NCO or OFFICER you won’t be able to help your soldier self improve.

Response by SGT Willard Merritt made Feb 2 at 2018 6:59 PM

2018-02-02T18:59:15-05:00

I was in the old army,when u did what you were told or were disciplined. And I left when it started changing just because of that

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2018 7:15 PM

2018-02-02T19:15:41-05:00

When it comes to correcting a Soldier, an NCO must know the Soldier. Some Soldiers can be quickly corrected through some PT - sure worked for me, because I knew from the very beginning that anything on paper was going to be a bad thing, and a few min of some exercise or pain would do the trick. Some soldiers. getting smoked just doesn't work, they either get mad, are already a PT stud so its not doing anything, or they don't get it. Counseling may work for them, some soldiers need to have things broken down and explained - not a screaming full of expletives, but an actual discussion about why it was wrong.
There are other soldiers where neither works, and it is YOUR JOB as an NCO to know your soldiers and know how to get through to them.

Response by SGT Allan Russell made Feb 2 at 2018 8:38 PM

2018-02-02T20:38:55-05:00

I think they need to keep family out of military. Its always those military moms getting mad that their son was punished or how he was punished. That and keep politics out also let the army do what they got to do. Soft people aint gunna do theor job or train how they fight. Ask questions during war people die just do your job go home and repeat. You join volenterrly if you dont like it get the fuck out but in the mean time do your job or get fucked up. Me as a sgt those people i wrote up and pressed for ar15s for any and everything i could i dont want pussies in our ranks time to bring back the old army.

Response by 1SG John Jones made Feb 2 at 2018 9:20 PM

2018-02-02T21:20:56-05:00

We don't need to waste money training soldiers and kicking them out for silly shit... make soldiers out of their asses do what we did in my day... open the scunion cafee all they can eat buffet.

Response by SPC Stormy Langley made Feb 2 at 2018 11:01 PM

2018-02-02T23:01:28-05:00

PT all the way. Positive reinforcement through consequences to action is always the best way. If you want to talk it to death, call your mama or granny.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2018 3:51 AM

2018-02-03T03:51:02-05:00

I think either could work depending on the person. The younger men and women who are still learning would probably benefit more from getting some physical training. The older more career oriented ones would probably better put in line if evaluations and permanent record were in jeapordy. I could also imagine a scenario where ‘smoking’ a more senior person may be so embarrassing it could have a large effect as well. Like I said, this would probably better be applied case by case. I have done many different unit types including a Company Commander (That’s Drill Instructor) in Coast Guard terms, and something I’ve noticed over the last 16 years is that it seems leadership has become more self serving. Maybe this has something to do with the motivation levels of our soldiers. It’s just the same way that children emulate their parents.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2018 6:02 AM

2018-02-03T06:02:56-05:00

It all depends on the person you are dealing with. I was in the Corps from 2006-2010 took a seven year break and came back into the military, Army this time. Not knowing how the Army was during the time I was in the Corps I have found it to be pretty soft during my time in the Army. I see some of the NCOs give a soldier a choice between doing physical stuff or take a counseling. I also see NCOs that do this but do not help the soldier better himself. Have one now where he took a smoke but they resorted to do hand him nothing but counselings now. It hasn’t worked, so I stepped granted I came in as a Specialist and started mentoring the kid actually talking to him finding out what his issues are and telling him what he needs to do to better himself and it has been working. As someone stated in one of their posts. NCOs like to punish the person more than trying to help the person out. Every person is different just have to find out which will better them and not set them up to fail.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2018 9:41 AM

2018-02-03T09:41:40-05:00

I totally agree that we lack much discipline nowadays. Especially from those SM coming out of AIT. I also have to say that due to NCO punishment limitations, its difficult to punish Soldiers without getting in trouble; therefore, causing them to just wait for Solfiers to mess up pretty bad in order to get rid of them.

Response by Kelvin Frazier made Feb 3 at 2018 9:56 AM

2018-02-03T09:56:38-05:00

Un like any other frat Gov. Brotherhood s rely on a balance of constant discipline and love whether in P.t or at a juke joint.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2018 12:21 PM

2018-02-03T12:21:49-05:00

Hell no paper work is bull shit take us to the wood line. I am disappointed in the lack of discipline after joining it isn’t what I thought and I for one was raised with it. I’m only a private and I can tell ya I’d way rather get smoked if I mess up. But it’s nit hard to do the right thing and avoid getting fucked up. So pushing paper work for every little thing is stupid and only screws soldiers over

Response by Cadet 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2018 2:53 PM

2018-02-03T14:53:18-05:00

I know I’m not in fully yet. I am a cadet at the University of Tennessee. I’m in my last year of officer training and every year we receive a new batch of freshman cadets. Our LTC, CPT, SFC, and Master Sergeant are all becoming increasingly relaxed with customs, courtesies, and discipline. As cadets, smoke sessions never occur. I think and can see that without the strict discipline a military needs, these kids are becoming relaxed.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2018 3:29 PM

2018-02-03T15:29:45-05:00

I got smoked everyday at BCT even when It was graduation, I been in for 2 years and the discipline is still their

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2018 6:05 PM

2018-02-03T18:05:37-05:00

Personally I have seen soldiers react to both. Some understand what negative counseling can lead to and other just hate getting smoked. I also think leaders as a whole have forgotten how to mentor to their subordinates to the point where they remain stagnant and don't wear in the next duty position. I personally hate counseling soldiers at the end of the month because I see it as a waste of time and you can easily just tell them how they preformed.

Response by SGT Jimmie Witcher made Feb 3 at 2018 8:50 PM

2018-02-03T20:50:50-05:00

PT more it makes them stronger physically and mentally. Nothing like a strong disciplined mind

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2018 9:39 PM

2018-02-03T21:39:44-05:00

So as a young soldier on his way to becoming an NCO I completely agree NCO’s would rather just get a soldier out than mold that soldier into what he/she needs to be.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2018 10:48 PM

2018-02-03T22:48:23-05:00

In my perspective if you challenge a persons intellect and mental processes you’d get a more intelligent and mentally capable individual. If you only challenge their physical endurance then you’ll only get a physically capable individual. However, if you callenge all aspects of an individual you’ll get a well rounded perspective and a more wholesome response rather than one or the other. Disobedience is not merely lack of physical capability it is all of the facets of an individual that need to be addressed to attain the best results!

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2018 11:07 PM

2018-02-03T23:07:44-05:00

What I have noticed is that the only way you truly get a Soldiers attention is to take there time and there money. It’s sad but true. To council a Soldier is ineffective. Also you need to council Soldier for good accomplishment as well. Not just negativity....

Response by PFC Taylor M made Feb 4 at 2018 8:17 AM

2018-02-04T08:17:29-05:00

Nobody cares anymore mfs are selfish and in the wrong positions. No more leadership. A Spc is equivalent to a pvt most NCOs are equivalent to trash

Response by SGT James Walsh made Feb 4 at 2018 10:07 AM

2018-02-04T10:07:37-05:00

Smoke them

Response by PO1 Shane Bowling made Feb 4 at 2018 10:31 AM

2018-02-04T10:31:39-05:00

Counseling is good if you know how to counsel, you are a good, leader, and you have the respect of those around you. Unfortunately most people who are in a position to counsel probably only possess none or one of these qualities so it's probably best to just explain the reason for the punishment and what the results are, implement it, and move on, for both parties.

Response by SSG Benigno Valencia Jr. made Feb 4 at 2018 12:31 PM

2018-02-04T12:31:25-05:00

Need to bring back smoking sessions instead of counseling statements. Doing extra or not only disciplines them but makes them stronger.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2018 1:01 PM

2018-02-04T13:01:59-05:00

Yes I know a soldier in AIT with me that has over 20 counselings and still doesnt show up to PT and they just keep giving counselings. Our platoon sergeant took us to the sandpit, did 10 pushups and acted like he smoked us hard and we all laughed. He then got in trouble by the battalion commander for taking us to the sandpit. It’s such BS they can’t do what is necessary to regain discipline.

Response by Cadet LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2018 1:15 PM

2018-02-04T13:15:01-05:00

No 18 year old is going to remember a piece of paper but they will remember being in physical discomfort and will work to avoid it. The so called "paper trail" is good for kicking soldiers out and defining a pattern but they do not contribute to a soldier's development.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2018 1:30 PM

2018-02-04T13:30:00-05:00

From my experience, individuals differ in response to these methods. It is best for a leader to learn which ones respond well to the verbal or physical methods. A good leader will do this and then use the most effective method.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2018 2:28 PM

2018-02-04T14:28:43-05:00

Counseling statements don’t do anything in my opinion. You could give a soldier a piece of paper to sign and they would forget about it within a week. You smoke a soldier and they will remember not to do it again for the sake of not getting another smoke session and simply having learned the lesson that needed to be learned.

Response by PFC Robert Staudt made Feb 4 at 2018 2:53 PM

2018-02-04T14:53:50-05:00

Ill sum it up quick. I never saw this in 88 to 91 when i served. Its the laziness that comes from lack of excercise and accountability. This generation has grown up to computers video games, social media cell phones and thug music. The gangsta culture and lack of 2 parent households filled with inactive children is the problem. They are way too sensitive. They need therapy dogs to deal with normal everyday stress. You wonder why this generation is weak this is why. My own children get notes to skip gym class i never even thought of such things in the 80's. We were all physically active. Good luck with these recruits.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2018 4:01 PM

2018-02-04T16:01:40-05:00

Nothing works better than a good smoke session.

Response by CPL Casey Booker made Feb 4 at 2018 5:10 PM

2018-02-04T17:10:00-05:00

In my time in service I have seen serveral different approaches taken. For me, a mix of counseling statements and PT worked best. A soldier remembers the pain of the PT but they also know that with the paper trail they could easily lose time money and rank. Me personally I feared losing rank and money more than anything.

Response by MAJ Richard Cheek made Feb 4 at 2018 6:26 PM

2018-02-04T18:26:03-05:00

I always counseled my soldiers squad leader drill sgt platoonsgt or company commander. Smoking was for poor PT performance or as drill sgt for on the spot corrections during field training. There is no paper trail if all you do is physically punish them. If you have to finally put someone out of the service better have paierwork together.

Response by LCpl Roy McMillan made Feb 4 at 2018 7:18 PM

2018-02-04T19:18:15-05:00

It depends on your goal. If your goal is to create hard body, hard minded, highly disciplined Warriors....you work them till they drop. Then you work them some more. And you talk to them while they are doing push-ups and sit ups.

On the other hand, If you want sensitive soy boys that want to discuss their feelings with the enemy and explain to the bad guy why it is wrong to hurt people...then by all means, counsel them.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2018 7:29 PM

2018-02-04T19:29:24-05:00

Until the pain of staying the same is worse than the pain of changing, Soldiers will continue their habits.

Response by MAJ Michael Steely made Feb 4 at 2018 8:09 PM

2018-02-04T20:09:11-05:00

It doesn’t matter what you believe. What does the SCIENCE say? Personally I think PT reduces arthritis, depression, and many other things. I can’t say with scientific certainty but I think PT is better than counseling.

Response by SGT Mejias Mayfield made Feb 4 at 2018 10:38 PM

2018-02-04T22:38:19-05:00

Punishment and counseling is always been the forefront of military values. Without discipline and counseling you'll have a weak military

Response by 1stSgt Eric Hamilton made Feb 4 at 2018 10:39 PM

2018-02-04T22:39:13-05:00

No it sets the opportunity for the councilor to start giving solution, plans. If the troop isn't working, some you just can't.

Response by SPC Marty Malone made Feb 4 at 2018 11:18 PM

2018-02-04T23:18:58-05:00

Man we got smoked all the time. We became very disciplined . Got to enjoy the smoking after a while. Made a better soldier, unit, and platoon out of us.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2018 11:25 PM

2018-02-04T23:25:30-05:00

No I think it has zero affect. They don't care about a piece of paper but if they knew that the consequences where physical they would change their mindset

Response by SGT Robert Cutt made Feb 4 at 2018 11:40 PM

2018-02-04T23:40:59-05:00

No, soft talk is not the way, pain and discipline is the answer

Response by CPL Nicholas Gerogianis made Feb 5 at 2018 12:10 AM

2018-02-05T00:10:08-05:00

Depending upon the situation and the severity of the offense I was in the military when it was old school military and therefore PT along with mental justification and training is what builds Soldier once again depending upon the situation when you are a group leader squad leader or a soldier that is responsible for others there's no room for bull crap A sound mind and a sound body along with moral values is what this country was based on

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2018 12:20 AM

2018-02-05T00:20:51-05:00

I think also that the different states that the country has been in for the new generation of soldiers joining has a big factor as well

Response by SPC Bradon Ferreira made Feb 5 at 2018 12:29 AM

2018-02-05T00:29:55-05:00

Response by Cadet PVT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2018 12:30 AM

2018-02-05T00:30:39-05:00

I'm going into the USMC and to be honest the Army is a lot more relaxed than the Marines. Itd be better is the Army " pushed the recruits harder, and become the soldier they can can be. They need to push them hard and not relaxed.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2018 4:05 AM

2018-02-05T04:05:03-05:00

My real thoughts simple can't be put here, but in a basic notion it is this, it is an ineffective form of communication, a 18 or 19 year old soldier reaaaaalllly doesn't care what the paper says.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2018 4:17 AM

2018-02-05T04:17:57-05:00

Very well said, I fully agree.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2018 7:55 AM

2018-02-05T07:55:41-05:00

IM older, when we were kids corrective action like butt whoopings were effective so smoking sessions worked when I was a private. As I have seen in this generation it's all about the info and tech age. I've learned to evolve with the times, my Soldiers have always been more responsive and disciplined with not really counseling on paper but a sit down and discuss negative and positive actions and understand UCMJ always fixes a problem that wont fix itself. I don't scream at them much so when I do raise my voice they get really edgy and correct themselves.

Response by SPC Miles Rupert made Feb 5 at 2018 8:46 AM

2018-02-05T08:46:27-05:00

I'd bet its to lower the suicide rate, but it hasn't changed it from what the numbers say. I think its a bad idea to weaken the army in that way. I mean, by not "smoking" them. Im kind of an inbetween guy though. We should be treated like independent adults, but still have some dependency to rely on your leadership. Good question to being up.

Response by SPC Stratos Karoglou made Feb 5 at 2018 11:03 AM

2018-02-05T11:03:00-05:00

i personally think that the military needs to stop acting like social workers to soldiers and mold them the way that its suppose to be. The way it was before things started changing. Thats just my opinion.

Response by CPL Carlos Rogers made Feb 5 at 2018 11:56 AM

2018-02-05T11:56:17-05:00

The Army had always been about molding you from a civilian to a Soldier. And for the most part made great soldiers. To assume a civilian would self form is not likely

Response by PFC Juan Medina made Feb 5 at 2018 12:01 PM

2018-02-05T12:01:33-05:00

Its true we got a bunch of kids straight out of high school that treat it like another version of high school ,and roll around like no one is the wiser. And at the same the higher ups don't wanna take the time to straighten their soldiers out. It easier to write a consoling than smoke some for 15.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2018 1:06 PM

2018-02-05T13:06:47-05:00

Counseling doesn't mean anything. Most of the time they get lost anyways. Its not even a slap on the wrist. Make the soldier feel some physical pain and they will remember not to do or say that again. Just my opinion.

Response by SPC Brandon Foster made Feb 5 at 2018 1:17 PM

2018-02-05T13:17:21-05:00

I find that too be true i was a much better solider and was better disciplined while i was recieving corrective training or smoke sessions as opposed to counsolings

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2018 1:39 PM

2018-02-05T13:39:03-05:00

I have been in close to 12 years now made my mistakes, got smoked, had a few words with a Sargent when he thought a smoking wouldn't help. It all depends on the situation and the person. Smoking in the beginning worked well, but as time wore on sometimes all that was needed was hey you realize how you messed up right? That Sargent asked me to write a letter explaining how I screwed up, why I did it and how I can make sure it won't happen again. Sometimes eye openers are all that is needed. I still maintain my BMD but I see more and more of new soldiers lacking it. I don't know why D.S. are going away at A.T. schools but they helped shape me into having proper discipline. Today oh he hurt my feelings, or that person was said something I found offensive. Legitimate complaints understandable but when it is a difference of opinion, time to get huggies and a pacifier.

Response by PVT Aaron Bible made Feb 5 at 2018 1:44 PM

2018-02-05T13:44:25-05:00

I do agree in the way talking to kids rather then taking a paddle to an ass can make them softer a healthy middle needs to be set

Response by PO3 Brian Merritt made Feb 5 at 2018 5:27 PM

2018-02-05T17:27:37-05:00

PT or EMI will definitely get their attention faster than having a holding hands session.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2018 7:01 PM

2018-02-05T19:01:37-05:00

It’s not just the Army that’s becoming soft, it’s the entire United States as a whole. Society today is obviously not what it used to be. I’m no expert, but we need to do what we can to hold that traditional discipline and leadership that once made us great. I do not believe counseling soldiers teaches them ‘a lesson’ as well as PT. A petty counseling done by an NCO that would rather be making better use of his or her time is no more than a slap on the wrist or a highschool detention to soldiers, they just don’t care. Once it’s over they don’t think about it. In my opinion, PT done right will make a soldier think twice...

Response by SFC Randy Pritchett made Feb 5 at 2018 7:39 PM

2018-02-05T19:39:40-05:00

The millennial sate a totally different animal than those that served before us. That being said, it is the job of an NCO to grab their attention and mold them in to a soldier. The NCO must find out what motivates today’s young soldiers and use it to their advantage. Once all avenues have been tried, then kick them out.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2018 8:13 PM

2018-02-05T20:13:10-05:00

Depends on the Soldier.
I would tend to do something paper-free before going to paper, but that is me.
Once I'm into paper, that Soldier had best in-fu-- himself because the next step will involve rank/pay.

And for the record, it is a myth that smoke sessions are somehow illegal now. What is not acceptable is hazing. Getting joe up at o-dark to conduct physical training where an opportunity presents itself to mentor the Soldier in question and suggest ways to avoid said early morning smoke show... now that is getting results without administrative punishment.

Be creative, but don't break the rules. Your senior NCOs can be an excellent resource for ideas.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2018 8:26 PM

2018-02-05T20:26:59-05:00

Speaking as a soldier, the best thing you can do for a lower enlisted soldier is not to just counsel them, but also help them to be a better person. The times when ive been motivated to be a better soldier are not when im told i have to do it because its my job, but because i want to do it for my NCO. This all comes back to respect for leadership and reciprocating that respect instead of being a brick wall that soldiees are afraid to approach and talk to or work with. Of course there are soldiers that dont want to be in. And they arent able to be helped. But like the old saying goes "help me help you". You need to help a soldier understand what his purpose is and why he needs to help his team and help himself. This is probably the unpopular oppinion and i dont think there are alot of lower enlisted on this website but this is just my opinion. I want to hear your thoughts on this.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2018 9:16 PM

2018-02-05T21:16:18-05:00

The best results I’ve is when the SGT smoking the soldier is will to get down with him! Never ask for what you’re not willing to do yourself. If your soldiers are a representation of you and your training what do we see, do you have their loyalty will follow you without question? Have you taught them how to take care of their future soldiers by taking care of them. None this means less discipline but discipline is much easier to take from someone you know has your back and has earned your respect than from someone who thinks that respect is their due and those in lower ranks are for their use. Just as discipline is missing so is leadership. The role of a leader is the ultimate servant. The Commander is responsible for the wellbeing of all his troops. As President Truman said “The buck stops here.” Every leader no matter how small his team must realize his role is one of self-sacrifice. Where his personal wants and desires no longer matter. For a soldier the leader must balance the needs of the mission and the needs his soldiers so they are never at odds this is where employment of discipline must happen. Some equate discipline with punishment this couldn’t be further from the truth. A leader who uses discipline for punishment is no leader at all but a dictator and is ruining young soldiers. Thank you for reading an old SFC’ ramblings I am not the best but I have been blessed to have served beside the best

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2018 10:00 PM

2018-02-05T22:00:19-05:00

Depends on the infraction. Corrective training is most effective when it directly addresses the issue it is used for.

Response by PO1 Donald Hammond made Feb 5 at 2018 10:39 PM

2018-02-05T22:39:12-05:00

I'm going to pipe in with the caveat that I got out in 1988. Cold war. We only did "counseling" as a last resort and to document why we were going to keel haul a bugger .. or write them up formally. Otherwise the old mule story was a good one to go by. You know. The kid going to buy a mule and the old timer says "great mule" but the kid couldn't get the mule to do anything. The old guy takes a 2x4 and hits the mule between the eyes. Then the mule did as he was told. Says to the kid "first you have to get his attention". Same with some people in the military. Whether it be scrubbing bilges or doing a gabillion pushups, first you have to get their attention. You can counsel while you are getting their attention. :)

Response by PVT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2018 10:44 PM

2018-02-05T22:44:46-05:00

I definitely agree we get counseling a for stuff tht could b settled in a smoke session .... I went to bct prepared to get the shit smoked out of me n all we got threatened with was counselings we only got smoked for the small things like talking or being late never for major things ...

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2018 10:55 PM

2018-02-05T22:55:53-05:00

It may sound cruel but knowing a soldiers weakness is always the best way, if they hate PT smoke 'em if you got 'em, if they hate anything academic make them write a 1000 word essay (grammar must be correct), if they love their off time TA50 layout Saturday and/or Sunday morning. I always tried to keep things off paper, its the way I was raised up in the Army, "do you want the Pen or the Sword". When I got out in 2015 it seemed like everything needed to go on paper so we could work them up to Article 15 and then out of the Army.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2018 1:00 AM

2018-02-06T01:00:15-05:00

The army needa to learn to band together at the top and say FUCK YOU to these politicians trying to run our military. That is like me trying to be in charge of a surgery. I dont know shit abouy any of it. There.

Response by Patrick Richardson made Feb 6 at 2018 1:25 AM

2018-02-06T01:25:31-05:00

After being broken down my entire cadre forgot that the most important part was to rebuild the broken. Had my cadre built me back up I wouldn't have felt the need to punch out one of my fellow cadets. This is why to this day I hate bullies. You're trying to build leaders instead you've built up an entire regiment of bullies trying to be the best on the battlefield and losing the battles. I sent at home now and I realize that I am two steps away from being a serial killer or committing suicide. But it ain't worth the price on my soul to do either one. Also there ain't no money in it. 9 weeks of my life trying to be a people pleaser and not one of the wanted the pleasure of being my friend. Sometimes you get more flys with shot than you do bees with honey.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2018 2:04 AM

2018-02-06T02:04:49-05:00

I agree I'm in ait and tbh we don't care about getting counseling because it don't follow you when you leave ait. And it's a joke it's so normal. They give counseling out like it's candy. So no one is scard. Now if they made us work it off I guarantee that it would be a different out come and I'm not talking about like 5 push-ups I mean getting smoked people would get more serious

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2018 2:07 AM

2018-02-06T02:07:05-05:00

And when they take our money or time it just pisses us off and 99% shitbag that much more

Response by SPC Jeremy Watson made Feb 6 at 2018 2:30 AM

2018-02-06T02:30:30-05:00

I think a smoking instead of counseling can be beneficial if you let them know you are trying to save them from counseling. Explain the ramifications of multiple counseling statements. This won't work all but probably most. Since they got rid of smoking they gave the power to the privates.

Response by SPC Jourard Daep made Feb 6 at 2018 3:00 AM

2018-02-06T03:00:47-05:00

What has counseling ever done for a warrior? Just ask yourself, “if an enemy combatant charges at me with the intent to kill me, would my training (ie. through my counselings have made me a better soldier, a more disciplined soldier, to be able to defend myself againya his attack?). In other words it is the physical things we do to our body to discipline it, be it PT, repetitive labor, combat training with weapons and hand to hand combat, that will make me a warrior. Give cpunawlings if you must, but do not let it take the place of muscle memory.

Response by SSgt Jack Schmidt made Feb 6 at 2018 8:03 AM

2018-02-06T08:03:02-05:00

Dicipline is learned quicker by adversity than by counseling with a touchy, I feel your pain college educated useless fool looking for an easy carreer. Break the recruit down, rebuild him as a combat Infantryman first, then train him or her to be a functioning warrior in the specialty they test out to be successful in learning.

Response by SGT Aaron Tucker made Feb 6 at 2018 8:44 AM

2018-02-06T08:44:00-05:00

I spoken with many young man who recently completed basic training. It sounds like daycare. I’m sure they pick up skill sets necessary to defend our country. But it seems they are soft and weak

Response by A1C Steven Freeman made Feb 6 at 2018 8:53 AM

2018-02-06T08:53:10-05:00

Depends on the person if they have a personal reason for their disciplinary problems counseling may help if it's a attitude problem then pt might wake them up if that doesn't work discharge them. Bad attitudes can take the whole units moral down, thin skin is not good in the military

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2018 9:24 AM

2018-02-06T09:24:45-05:00

SGT Andrew Dejesus I am all for smoke sessions and counselings. I haven't seen either going away. The issue though of trying to kick someone out is you need paperwork so you need to do the counselings. However, I have still seen smoke sessions of entire platoons to keep them in check. Not sure where/why they are going away.

Response by SFC Bam McIntosh made Feb 6 at 2018 9:27 AM

2018-02-06T09:27:26-05:00

Depends on the soldier. Some soldiers are like dumb dogs, you can spank them for pissing on the carpet but they will do it again without hesitation. Those guys need counseling so Jag sees the paper trail and boots them. Then some soldiers are like young impressionable scholars who take your ass chewing and smoke session personally and strive to be the best like John Parr’s number 1 hit single St. Elmo’s Fire. Leaders need to know their soldiers and figure out which ones recruiters let in for that badass NCOER and which ones want to be in for the greater good of humanity. But never forget you need dumbass dogs to storm a hill and to not shoot till you see the whites of their eyes..... No scholar isngonna so that. They will 86 that order.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Feb 6 at 2018 10:20 AM

2018-02-06T10:20:41-05:00

1. PT is great for minor things; talking in ranks, gear unbuttoned, headgear not straight, etc. 2. Counseling statements give (1) both sides protection (2) state problem and corrections (3) can be used to build a case for tossing someone, as well as recommending them for advancement. 3. Punishment must fit the crime- late- weekend inspections, field layouts, drill and ceremonies- forget gear- field layouts, reciting Roberts Ranger Orders, etc. Digging latrines to spec, fighting positions to spec, weapon maintenance, room maintenance- the possibility is almost endless. 4. When someone is being corrected, someone from his chain of command, must be there supervising it directly. This ensures the SM gets the message and his supervisor gets the message. 5. It costs a lot of money to train folks- unless it drugs (our CO automatically fried them) it best to try to upgrade those you have- those that are worthless, or not cost effective can go flip burgers on the street.

Response by PO3 Rafael QRobles made Feb 6 at 2018 10:55 AM

2018-02-06T10:55:06-05:00

No. We see the changes that are taking place with the lack of proper training. It should include PT. Lots of it!!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2018 11:05 AM

2018-02-06T11:05:17-05:00

I'm a newer soldier myself. Only 3 years in. I could care less about the counseling statements because it's just on a piece of paper. That's not the right way to learn from your mistake because there is no lesson. As a newer soldier I'd love to bring back smoke sessions. There's almost no negative side to it besides hearing people complain about it afterwards. It keeps up your pt and your discipline.

Response by SPC Chris Montel made Feb 6 at 2018 11:42 AM

2018-02-06T11:42:03-05:00

Counseling does nothing it's just more paperwork

Response by SGT Ken Tomes made Feb 6 at 2018 11:53 AM

2018-02-06T11:53:05-05:00

Youth today trun their heads n eyes up when you counsel them which tells me they could give a damn if what you’re saying. They are trained at home that they are right n special. Unfortunately this mentality can be frustrating. Smoking the whole squad causes the ones always causing this action to pressure them to tighten their shot group or the squad will take matters into their own hands when the NCO is not present.

Response by SFC Tony Herbers made Feb 6 at 2018 12:17 PM

2018-02-06T12:17:49-05:00

You counsel to help them understand what they need to do to correct their weakness and how to correct it.

Response by SPC Jessica Kruzinski made Feb 6 at 2018 12:21 PM

2018-02-06T12:21:42-05:00

Smoke ‘em!

Response by PVT Tom Kneram made Feb 6 at 2018 4:49 PM

2018-02-06T16:49:32-05:00

Response by SPC John Burke made Feb 6 at 2018 6:32 PM

2018-02-06T18:32:32-05:00

I think smoke sessions are good for discipline. Counseling has its place but discipline can never be compromised at the expense of hurting someone's feelings are making them sweat a little. I am afraid we are becoming a Nation of Wussies.

Response by SPC Andrew Deemer made Feb 6 at 2018 6:35 PM

2018-02-06T18:35:47-05:00

No. I hated paper pushing ncos. Mainly because these ncos would find any reason what so ever to write your ass up. Also, why are the majority of individuals replying e-5 and above? If you want the truth it needs to come from e-4 and below. Otherwise your arguing semantics.

Response by SFC Benjamin Varlese made Feb 6 at 2018 9:54 PM

2018-02-06T21:54:37-05:00

While a good smoke session is a sure-fire way to knock some sense into a bullheaded private and sorely miss those days, I have found taking their free time and filling it with menial tasks or writing essays is a much more effective punishment. I’m old school but find better training value in a 500 word essay on the real world, military consequences for not following orders or reporting to their first line leader every 30 minutes to reinforce punctuality; my personal favorite is getting ridiculous with tie-downs to EVERYTHING like laces to boots and belts to pants. That being said, it’s like banning enhanced interrogation techniques, if they know you can’t utilize a proven technique it only emboldens bad behavior

Response by MSG Bobby Hernandez made Feb 6 at 2018 11:23 PM

2018-02-06T23:23:16-05:00

It all starts at Basic Training. They take it easy on the recruits in order to make their quota numbers and it goes downhill from there.

Response by PFC Chris Okamoto made Feb 7 at 2018 12:01 AM

2018-02-07T00:01:47-05:00

I personally would have liked both pt and smoke sessions but my 1sg wanted to kick out everyone e7 and below before he pcs to Korea

Response by SSG Matthew Koehler made Feb 7 at 2018 12:29 AM

2018-02-07T00:29:44-05:00

I retired back in 2009. In my last 10 years, there was major downward spiral of discipline in the lower ranks. Smoke sessions were very rare. As an NCO, it was my job to initially counsel soldiers and lay down the standards of performance. I explained what counselings were comprised of, both positive and negative, and the impact they have on future evaluations and promotions. NCO's, do your self a favor and document, document, document. This is your tool for evaluating soldiers. Yes, its a full time job. I was always for affecting somebody's time and pay both positive and negative (extra duty, day pass etc). It was up to the individual to decide on his/her career progression.

Response by PO2 Paul Hyslop made Feb 7 at 2018 12:34 AM

2018-02-07T00:34:10-05:00

Kicking them out should be a last resort but I would start with counseling first then pt then ass beating then out the door

Response by PFC Todd Jordan made Feb 7 at 2018 3:14 AM

2018-02-07T03:14:07-05:00

I was old school and got smoked and it does make a difference in attitude

Response by PO2 John Brown made Feb 7 at 2018 4:02 AM

2018-02-07T04:02:19-05:00

Counselling is better

Response by SPC Allen Easley made Feb 7 at 2018 8:13 AM

2018-02-07T08:13:54-05:00

Smoke the military is getting soft, need old school molding.

Response by PFC Joseph Eddington made Feb 7 at 2018 10:12 AM

2018-02-07T10:12:10-05:00

Both, talk to them and swell their chests

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Feb 7 at 2018 10:25 AM

2018-02-07T10:25:13-05:00

I believe the punishment should be in line with the offense. Doing push ups for hands in your pockets is fracking dumb. Doing a 1000 word essay on why one should not have their hands in their pocket, now that is more interesting. Show up late to formation, come in from 1600-2200 changing uniforms every 15 minutes and reporting to the you in the uniform of assignment with out flaw, now that is far worse than some of the smoking crap I have seen over the years. I can be very inventive when it comes to corrective counseling...and not get myself set for some dumb IG complaint.

Response by SPC Boisey Christopher Collins made Feb 7 at 2018 10:25 AM

2018-02-07T10:25:20-05:00

I agree also in my opinion they don't do enough to promote them staying busy and active. I have a son who is in now as an 11X at about the 1 1/2-year point and from what he tells me about everyday life as a soldier. From what I see there's entirely way too much time and Garrison entirely way too Lacks an atmosphere and attitude toward Fitness. That is much, much softer then the time period That I served inn 89-95

Response by SSG Brian Edwards made Feb 7 at 2018 12:21 PM

2018-02-07T12:21:44-05:00

They both have there place in the army when I served. When I had taken over a platton once they were a total group of young undisiplined soilders if you would even call them that. First formation I seen long hair un shaved. I had the ncos fall out and had a few good words with them then I smoked the shit out of them on a 5 mile run. After run told them why, explain what I expected. Afterwards I sit each nco down individually and sit the standard to them and told them if I ever had to do that again it would reflect on there ncoer.

Response by Vito Sanfilippo made Feb 7 at 2018 7:17 PM

2018-02-07T19:17:38-05:00

I believe in old school boot camp the shit my uncle told me about wen he was in basic during Vietnam, ur teaching someone to go overseas and kill shit u can't coddle them kike a baby u gotta toughen them up and condition them

Response by SPC Gregory Groff made Feb 10 at 2018 3:24 PM

2018-02-10T15:24:33-05:00

Unfortunately, this lack of respect for Supervisors and councilling statements carries on into their civilian jobs. I see it most in millinials.

Response by SSG Jason Mangen made Feb 14 at 2018 11:55 AM

2018-02-14T11:55:02-05:00

Counseling for professional and career development alongside skill evaluation are different than a soldier needing an attitude adjustment. If I needed to smoke somebody for attitude adjustment the only reason to use counseling statement is so there is a written record. I also used a notebook just for the purposes of making observations of my soldiers and sometimes took corrective action on the spot or used it as documentation for further action down the line. Sometime the leadership or personalities don’t mesh. Try moving the individual to another unit and let the leadership there know what’s going on. The individual may adapt and perform better if not then it may be time for the boot out of the service depending on how bad the situation is.

Response by 1SG Milton Jackson made Feb 15 at 2018 2:13 PM

2018-02-15T14:13:37-05:00

Yes I believe that counseling is very important but PT is effective also.

Response by MSG John Duchesneau made Feb 15 at 2018 11:18 PM

2018-02-15T23:18:16-05:00

Different people respond to different approaches. What good is a counseling statement? Its just words on a piece of paper. Old fashioned things like smoke sessions and KP work because they are uncomfortable.

Response by LTC John Bush made Feb 18 at 2018 10:52 AM

2018-02-18T10:52:04-05:00

Not mutually exclusive I always did both. Young soldiers in particular have the grasp the concept that their actions have consequences and they and they alone put themselves in the situation they are in.

Response by SGT Sabrina Quiroz made Feb 21 at 2018 10:29 PM

2018-02-21T22:29:47-05:00

In peace time I think the military becomes more picky about who gets enlisted

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2018 1:00 AM

2018-02-22T01:00:00-05:00

In 1972 Fort Bragg, a few days with (CCF) Conduct Correctional Facilities worked just find. In essence a motivation unit.

Response by Frank Leverett made Mar 5 at 2018 12:06 PM

2018-03-05T12:06:12-05:00

Personally, with the current snowflake generation, it's not really worth it, as they're dead set on being a snowflake and therefore special, so it's better to cut them loose, then enjoy the show as they bitch when not hired due to washing out.

Response by AN Donald Miller made Mar 7 at 2018 1:40 AM

2018-03-07T01:40:37-05:00

Back when ships where wood and men where steel seems to pop up in my mind. Then I think about my family crest for on it are three Lions which represents three Lions that the first Irishman killed with his bare hands at the same time. He was the second to the last Pharaohs General, contemporary to King Solomon. Makes me wonder how tough a man was back in those days. Seems mankind is getting weaker as we progress. I guess they'll want to start wearing vagina hats next.

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Mar 12 at 2018 6:56 AM

2018-03-12T06:56:47-04:00

Counseling is mental health.. P.T. Is physical both work for the body.. counseling isn’t going to do much for humping that 50lb rucksack.

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Mar 12 at 2018 8:11 AM

2018-03-12T08:11:07-04:00

I commented just previously about counseling sessions good for the mind and P.T. For the body and I stand by that.. turn a counseling session into a positive re-enforcement. It can be done... i’ve Had a few over time that thought their beauty sleep was more important than being in the kitchen with their fellow cooks getting breakfast ready.. well we can readjust your schedule and have you come in a half hour later , but you stay an hour later.. with me. I got paperwork to do... getting my Senior cook requisition together.. closing the cooksheet out.. getting the next day’s cook sheet ready with who will be where.. in fact it’d be good for you, I’d say.. I’d then say they got the potential.. I’ve seen it.. show me some more, ok? I seen you stop by an area and straighten it up before going on break.. and s’body walked off.. and then not complain.. and they’ve told the person confidentially about their mess-up.. (I’ve told them also, but more on a written form, maybe). I liked scheduling Airmen to work with me as 1st Cooks.. up their leadership skill when the regular 1st Cook is on their day off or gone for appointment. As for P.T. .. set up a 2 on 2 pick up game of basket-ball at hoops outside.. at the park. I have a quick extra-curricular head banging meeting and then shoot the hoops.. Have Met with some at the Base gym at the weight room.. Trying to make the P.T. Entertaining, not punishing., making it a team-work session.. (sneaky, yes?). As for counseling.. I make it a team thing when it involves s’thing that happened on the shift.. more of a mediation session..
how We can help each other be better Airmen. ... assign peer partners.. I tried one time,.... took a chance and assigned two sleeping beauties to each other to get each other into work on time.... at 0430. I made it a dare between both of them. and held them to it.. Their rooms were just down the hall from each other.. they literally ran into each other.. one was just leaving his room snd the other was just about to the other Airman’s door.. had no more probs getting them to work on time..
one of the scary things was it was spring and turning clocks up an hour that Sunday morn’g. The outcome of my mediation counseling was that the Airmen took responsibility for helping each other be better Airmen.. I stressed to them that s’times it might seem like their peer is coming on a little strong because they mistakenly interpreted their fellow Airman having a bad time. That’s why they first ask if there’s a problem before stepping in.. offer to talk about it.. and at the same time help them get their task done. Just make sure one’s own task is done.. and... nobody’s done, until we all are done! ...

Response by SGT Stephen Jaffe made Mar 22 at 2018 9:28 PM

2018-03-22T21:28:26-04:00

I was in the Army from Feb. 1965 through Oct. 1968. I was in basic at Ft. Jackson. In those days, going into the military was the first step a boy experienced on the journey to becoming a man. No disrepect to our female troops, but this was in the old days. For a guy to mess-up in the Army was just unheard of. Imagine how embarrassing that would be.Our DIs were pretty tough. Our CO was a captain who had been in 'Nam as an advisor. The CO and the DIs didn't take any crap. There were no discipline problems. In 8 weeks you were transformed from a civilian to a soldier. You looked like a soldier and acted like a soldier. There is something to be said for tough DIs who don't put up with any crap.

Response by SGT George Duncan made Apr 3 at 2018 7:05 PM

2018-04-03T19:05:48-04:00

depends on situation both are needed as a teacher you must learn when

Response by SSG Guy Gould made Apr 6 at 2018 12:02 PM

2018-04-06T12:02:42-04:00

Counseling statements are very effective when there is a predictable much stronger outcome for the following similar offenses. Rather than writing statements with a view toward separation, write them with a view toward court-martial. Let them know that their actions can be punished by time in a federal prison with a federal felony hanging onto them like a baby monkey for the rest of their life.. There is nothing more effective than the thought that they could end up in Camp Lajune being ordered around by a bunch of Marine Corp privates.

In addition to writing that first statement, which is done even to record that verbal warning given when you first notice a pattern of misconduct developing, make sure there is at least two weeks of corrective training attached to each one including the very first one. I’m talking about actual training that’s effective.. Yes, you have to supervise the training by checking on their progress and making sure they are actively training rather than passing the buck to staff duty or whomever else. But, when you have someone that does something like violating a Commanders order to be in proper uniform (This is how you make AR 670-1 punitive, by the way.), you have them report to you at the unit wearing whichever uniform or combination of uniforms that you decide. It can be a mix of any of the uniforms. The corrective training isn’t actually about the uniform. It’s about following orders. The commander designates the uniform in writing on the unit training calendar. That’s a written order by the commander.

Counseling statements wth this type of view toward severe punishment in the future work well. After that first Soldier gets court-martialed, the other ones will start seeing that you’re not fooling around and things get real for them quickly.

Response by SPC Mikki Ekanger made Apr 13 at 2018 1:54 AM

2018-04-13T01:54:17-04:00

I think its a double edged sword. It's dangerous to resort to counseling over remedial PT, as well as forcing a troop to do remedial PT. As a leader I think it's important to look at totality of the circumstances. For example... I've weighed around 240 since 2008. I failed height and weight constantly. At one point I was on a strict diet that left me constantly hungry, with little energy and I was doing remedial PT. I didn't lose an ounce. I was miserable and humiliated. I was counseled, flagged from promotions and advancement. I worked my ass off. My PSG finally noticed how hungry I was and how my morale tanked, that he told me to go to Burger King. I ate like a hog and still didn't gain an ounce. Now 10 years later I've maintained my weight around 5 lbs.
My only caution would be, if you counsel a troop, closely monitor if the troop is complying with the orders and if so what are the results? Are they working their asses off or just gaming? Are you doing PT with them? Are you inspiring them or humiliating them? Today I have zero desire to PT, I'd been humiliated enough over 18 years.

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made Apr 16 at 2018 3:11 AM

2018-04-16T03:11:52-04:00

Counselling military members will either have a positive or negative effect on those being counselled. A military supervisor or squad leader must use counselling for both discipiline and recogizing accomplishments of those under their leadership. PT is done by every one and never be used as a punishment. But that's the role some leaders feel must be used for discipilining those men/women who don't perform up to standards. But then it is up to the individual to decide if they want to really improve themselves or not.

Response by SGT Michael Wells III made Apr 22 at 2018 2:18 PM

2018-04-22T14:18:32-04:00

PT is necessary for both discipline and ensuring we have a healthy military. There is nothing else to say beyond that.

Response by Cpl Jeff Ruffing made Apr 29 at 2018 7:43 PM

2018-04-29T19:43:18-04:00

Hmm, another interesting question. There are some that can take the counseling and do better, and there are those that can’t or won’t. The ones that can’t or won’t deem the PT. My drill instructor once said, “ Be smart or be dumb. Your choice. If you choose to be dumb, make sure your strong, cause you will have your butt wore out.”

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2018 9:36 PM

2018-05-01T21:36:19-04:00

I can’t disagree with you on that. I saw a SGM smoke a private the other day. Hadn’t seen that in a while.

Response by LTC Bob O'Neal made Nov 4 at 2019 11:18 AM

2019-11-04T11:18:00-05:00

Why one-size-fits-all? Allow NCOs to use the disciplinary method that fits the situation. Some soldiers respond best to sharp verbal correction, others to 1) pushups, 2) running or walking off, 3) counseling, etc. 2nd and 3rd offenses can also vary. Allow at least our senior NCOs to use their judgement to correct soldiers!

Response by SSgt Dennis Rotzoll made Nov 18 at 2019 8:11 PM

2019-11-18T20:11:39-05:00

The Army is to Rank heavy. To many Junior Officer don't know how to lead, and don't relay on senior Sgts to show them the in and outs of leadership. Unlike the Marine Corps everyone in the Army is Sgt, not by rank such as SSgt. Sgt1sr class and so on. Years of service and a number of steps it took to get to that ranks one has is just as important as that gold bar. When it takes the rank of Cpl or Sgt in the Marine Corps to be an Squard leader, and the Army has SSgts doing the same job. Something is wrong with that picture, Sgt is a E5 in the Marines is as it is in the Army, an SSgt E6 is a Plt Sgt in the Marines as it should be in the Army. E7, E8,and E9 should be the same in both services.

Response by SP5 Ward Posey made Feb 26 at 2020 9:22 AM

2020-02-26T09:22:42-05:00

Well said

Response by SGT Wilson Tim made Feb 26 at 2020 9:54 AM

2020-02-26T09:54:44-05:00

Applying mental and physical pressure prepares soldiers for what will come whether it be life or combat

Response by SFC Kendrick Johnson made Feb 26 at 2020 12:33 PM

2020-02-26T12:33:44-05:00

Probably so. I've been retired for more years than I served, but it was already moving in that direction in the early 1990's. The reason leadership wants to weed them out? 2% of the soldiers take up 90% of your time.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2020 12:46 PM

2020-02-26T12:46:00-05:00

What I saw while in was each soldier is different. Being smoked seemed to work 85 percent of the time. Smoking and putting it on paper are only tools. The problem with putting it on paper is sometimes higher ups want a book before they will do anything.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2020 6:43 PM

2020-02-26T18:43:06-05:00

My thought on the situation is smoke their ass! Trust me it will get their attention! Yes, for a while they might be mad at you or hold a grudge, but in the end of that smoke session or shortly after they will come to realization oh, that they are not in charge. It is much like a child getting their ass whooped for doing something bad. It is the most effective way to discipline and sculpture a warrior..

Response by SSG Todd Eutsey made Feb 26 at 2020 6:47 PM

2020-02-26T18:47:57-05:00

My god seriously counseling for better PT scores. Toughen the heck up for gods sake. There will not one counselor available to you in a active war zone in there were say another WW.

Response by MAJ George Furgurson made Feb 27 at 2020 8:30 AM

2020-02-27T08:30:32-05:00

Of course, but it must be sincere, and fact based with good and doable recommendations, then all this with follow-up.