Do you believe ROTC commissioned Lieutenants have bad attitudes?

2014-03-03T13:04:33-05:00

Is it me or are the 4 year ROTC LT's often disrespectful and they feel privileged. I'm a prior service, deployment, non-com and also commissioning but noticed how bad their attitudes were at a drill this weekend. Mainly looking for advice because dealing with them the NCO way, which is a habit I have, didn't work.

Response by SFC James Baber made Mar 3 at 2014 2:05 PM

2014-03-03T14:05:13-05:00

Sir, I am trying to be nice without stirring the pot too much, but I know I will probably get a lot of negative comments on this. From what I have experienced during my career, most of the new LTs that either come straight from college or ROTC programs feel they are privileged or better than the enlisted they encounter when they first come in, some have been taught or learned things the hard way, while others have realized their asinine ways before they make CPT. Many have been prepped by either their families or their instructors that they are the cream of the crop which leads to swollen heads and holier than thou attitudes, maybe not as prevalent now as it was in the 80s/90s, but it did exist. Being a former NCO you should already no how to deal with those types of individuals, let them flaunt and plume all over the place, ignore most of their pomp or allow them to fall on their faces, sometimes that is what is needed. You can also use those NCO ninja reverse psychology skills you have learned of your time in the NCO arena to teach and mentor them on how to be a better example for someone that is going to be a leader. Just my 2 cents.

Response by 2LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2014 2:05 PM

2014-03-03T14:05:55-05:00

I know other leaders had my back but unfortunately my fellow cadets attitudes did not change one bit. I partly blame the silver spoon effect on one. Her father is an LTC in the special forces and she's made that quite clear many times. Hopefully I'll rub off on them a little bit about getting in their to work hand in hand with soldiers when possible. I know as an officer we are there to plan and supervise while NCOs make it happen but God made us able to multi-task as well.<div> </div>

Response by MSG Gene Potocki made Mar 3 at 2014 3:02 PM

2014-03-03T15:02:59-05:00

I think it's more of how the cadre worked with them, when they were enrolled in the program. Especially the last year when they were MS IV's. What was the relationship like between them and the PMS and the SMI's assigned to their detachment.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 26 at 2014 8:07 PM

2014-08-26T20:07:35-04:00

As a 2.5 year USMA attendee (academic separation) and 2 year ROTC contracted Cadet (no scholarship), and after a couple of years in the Army myself, I say that attitudes of new LTs (and possibly seniors in either commissioning program-I did not get the opportunity for OCS, so can't speak of that) is mostly determined by their interactions with the officers and NCOs responsible for their training.
I have seen senior cadets with big heads as well as those who respond with professional humility as I have seen newly commissioned LTs.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 2 at 2016 4:10 PM

2016-10-02T16:10:31-04:00

At this point, I think it's a crap shoot of what you're gonna get, regardless if they came from USMA, VMI, the Citadel, or any ROTC for that matter. I've been surprised by working with some awesome officers from USMA and some dirtbags from ROTC, and vice versa.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 2 at 2016 4:21 PM

2016-10-02T16:21:47-04:00

As a mustang officer myself, I've encountered the hot shot ROTC grads as well as some who were grateful for the lessons NCOs provide them.

That being said, the best way would be to say, "sir/ma'am it is my experience that suggests....". If you're trying to convey a point immediately and directly, "Sir/ma'am, with all due respect....". Otherwise, do your best to educate them once you're a peer.

Response by CAPT Dave Woodard made Oct 2 at 2016 5:01 PM

2016-10-02T17:01:29-04:00

Part of the issue is the "gentleman's" self perception, why they became an officer to begin with. Then the training environment and how they were trained to lead. There maybe something in the leadership training curriculum and what, and how, the material is presented that creates that dreaded O-1 attitude (and it happens in all branches of service, except perhaps the Marine Corps that uses a totally different leadership training model.

Response by SPC Roger Giffen made Oct 2 at 2016 5:41 PM

2016-10-02T17:41:36-04:00

The only 2LT that came out of ROTC that I came in conduct with actually told me that he didn't know anything about the job he had been given. I had to show him how to clean his 45. He learned by watching the troops under him.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 2 at 2016 6:22 PM

2016-10-02T18:22:40-04:00

Haha I love when people try and single out a Commisisoning program. How do you group 200+ universities? That's like asking do all OCS commissionees suck at writing opords? Anyways, to answer your question, it boils down to mentorship from ROTC, to their personal life, to the officers/nco's in the unit. I have seen douche bags from West Point, ROTC, and OCS. My dad is a retired CSM so I learned from him and have been lucky enough to have mentors from Company grade to GO. The broken, non-existent nco Corp is part of the issue too. If I didn't have mentors I would be screwed since I was stuck with a psg who was married and liked having sex with junior enlisted. I could have easily turned into a shi* bag but my peers and mentors made sure I didn't. Mentorship and peer accountability is what we all need.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 2 at 2016 6:34 PM

2016-10-02T18:34:29-04:00

I found dealing with my peers in ROTC frustrating at times. However, my worst experiences continue to be with West Point graduates. Imagine being a MCCC graduate with 8 years TIS and deployment experience being told by a non-BOLC qualified West Point Lieutenant that you're doing terrain analysis wrong. I could have went off on him, instead I tried to show him where he was wrong. In the end he wasn't receptive and ended up failing of his own accord.

With that said, some of the worst Officers I've served with have been mustangs as well. A prior E5(P) who was part of the invasion of Iraq was pulled off of my 2011 deployment after a negligent discharge and other instances of incompetence. I know of another mustang who had the most AWOLs in the Brigade as a Lieutenant. Yet another former peer of mine constantly touted his 8 years of enlisted experience and deployment, yet barely passed the APFT and would nap while his men trained. What he didn't tell you is that he was an 8 year SPC and was a tower guard in Saudi Arabia.

Why did I share all this? The point is that good and bad leaders come from all sources. I found myself with similar frustrations when I was in your position. Some of my peers just didn't seem to "get it." Your less competent peers will quickly self-identity. While it's unfortunate their Soldiers will suffer because of it, the system will eventually weed them out. In the past I worked poorly with a peer I found lacking. While my impressions were correct, our Soldiers suffered due to the rift. In short, I recommend you find a way to work with your peers and share your experience. If they're unreceptive, that is their fault not your own. Also bear in mind that your experience, while valuable, will become less relevant once you reach the Battalion and Brigade level. They may have something to teach you in the future.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 2 at 2016 7:58 PM

2016-10-02T19:58:53-04:00

The new lieutenant said, "In my experience..."

Response by COL Jon Thompson made Oct 2 at 2016 9:08 PM

2016-10-02T21:08:34-04:00

What kind of disrespectful actions are they displaying? Is it to you, to their superior officers, or to the Soldiers? When you say you dealt with it the "NCO" way, what do you mean by that? I get frustrated when people puts officers from one source or category into one large group. ROTC officers are not any different from USMA or OCS in terms of quality. The absolutely worst officer I have ever worked was enlisted before going to OCS. Everything he did was worst because he was involved with it. I would take any ROTC graduate over him any day. My advice to you would be to not focus on your job now and don't think that your past automatically makes you a better officer. Do your job which includes working with these officers. The chain of command will do their job along the way.

Response by SPC James Anderson made Oct 2 at 2016 9:15 PM

2016-10-02T21:15:06-04:00

Served with 4 cadets that were in ROTC while I was in the guard. All four of them were some of the most professional individuals i have ever met. They served in the unit as Cadets and then assumed command of certain platoons upon graduation and earning their commission. As cadets they were respectful to all ranks of enlisted and eager to learn. As 2nd Lt's they continued this performance and all went on to be highly thought of as officers. Maybe I just got lucky, or maybe serving in the unit as cadets first took some of the spunk out of them.

Response by CW4 Scott Hyde made Oct 2 at 2016 9:17 PM

2016-10-02T21:17:21-04:00

This is not new. New officers need to be a little cocky. It is our job to turn that into skill and confidence. We were all young and lacked experience once. The old guys helped us become leaders. If you do not train and mentor them then you are part of the problem.

Response by MSgt Sandra McKinney Dent made Oct 2 at 2016 10:28 PM

2016-10-02T22:28:49-04:00

It's not the source of the commissioning, it's the character of the person.

Response by TSgt Denise Moody made Oct 2 at 2016 10:37 PM

2016-10-02T22:37:37-04:00

Many new officers feel that way, nothing new. At least until they get knocked down a peg or two. I was in the Hosp Sq so we got to deal with new Capts coming from 2 weeks of OTS. And some of them thought they were God's gift. That is until we got through with them.

Response by SGT James Belcher made Oct 3 at 2016 6:32 AM

2016-10-03T06:32:58-04:00

This never seemed to last very long in the units I was in. The senior NCO's almost always were outstanding, and handled that stuff...it never seemed to take long. Sometimes they would let a new 2LT fall flat on his face, other times it was a one on one chat, but it was almost always handled quick, fast and in a hurry. Maybe because it was the Infantry, maybe it was the Company Commanders, maybe something I will never know....It just never seemed to last very long whether it was ROTC or any other way they came to the unit.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 3 at 2016 11:18 AM

2016-10-03T11:18:39-04:00

Peer to peer, you can help a brother out.
But your best bet is to find their PSG (or equivalent) and do a little mentoring. This issue is neither new, nor unique to a particular method of commissioning.
New officers struggle with the push-me-pull-you of being in charge and wanting to prove yourself and lead from the front and lacking practical experience. Most learn on the job and take some lumps in the process.
NCOs training new officers is as old as the Army.
It'll be ok.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 3 at 2016 1:25 PM

2016-10-03T13:25:40-04:00

I do not think that they necessarily have a bad attitude, just the wtong attitude. Let us all remember that in the military we all strive for success. We want to be the best at everything, APFT, Best Warrior, Best Land Navigation. It is a part of our make up and it's a good thing. Now with this in mind why is it we dislike new officers? Is it because the are overly enthusiastic? Is it because they want to take over the world? Is it because they want to enforce standards that we have long since forgotten or ignored? Just keep in mind the way you felt when you first became a new 2LT or Sergeant. It's time to stop eating our young and helping these soldiers become better leaders. Maybe we should take a look at our attitudes first.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 3 at 2016 2:59 PM

2016-10-03T14:59:49-04:00

All generalization about people are false including this one.

i worked with both good and bad officers from every commissioning source.

Remember that for four (or more) years the ROTC new Lt thought the military was what the ROTC unit did. Just like basic, OTS, OCS, etc this is not the real world. But, I can see a brand new officer having trouble until he/she recognizes this.

Patience or behind the woodshed.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2016 1:35 AM

2016-10-04T01:35:02-04:00

From my experience, from the new 2LTs that would show at our units, the ROTC officer was on point.they would listen to their NCOs and where not afraid to ask for help in developing new plans. The West Point graduates however, most the time came in very cocky, would refuse to accept or even listen to advice given by their PSGs, and did what they thought was the best. Which resulted in many fights in front of the platoon, and many ass chewings. But, as someone else stated, it's heir character, not the way they commissioned that defines the person.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2016 4:53 AM

2016-10-04T04:53:13-04:00

Although it may be hard to see at times, Lieutenants are people. Some are good people, some are idiots, some are motivated, some have bad habits, some are amazing.

It's the same for NCOs, or civilians for that matter.

There's no cookie cutter answer with 'how to deal with people.' Every person is different, responds differently, and needs different things.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2016 12:44 PM

2016-10-06T12:44:49-04:00

As a prior service Emirates currently in ROTC(Green to Gold) I can guarantee that my school just graduated an entire class of toxic leaders. So far as I can tell it was a combination of cadre and "big fish in a small pond" mindset. You spend four years becoming the best in your small world, not ready for that humbling of all experiences, commissioning as a 2LT.

Response by MSG David Rogers III made Oct 6 at 2016 5:35 PM

2016-10-06T17:35:02-04:00

I'm trying guys..... hope I make a difference. I am a retired MSG from 4 years ago. Came to ROTC as a contractor. Went from MSG Rogers to Mr. Rogers (Welcome to my neighborhood). The contract expired, by the college picked me up as an ROTC coordinator (facilities, admin, faculty liaison, etc.). I still interact with the Cadets, sometimes my alter ego MSG Rogers makes a visit. I continue to coach, teach, mentor. I think they are coming out all right. It is not the entire program, just the individuals. In my service time, I've had many difficult Officers, NCOs, Enlisted, Civilians, Family Members, kids, dogs, cats, fish... the list goes on. Don't try too hard to focus on why they are the way they are, work on taking them to the next level!

We tend to follow the typical Army Problem Solving Process..... Step 1: Assign Blame.

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made Oct 6 at 2016 8:10 PM

2016-10-06T20:10:48-04:00

Not sure the source of commissioning has anything to do with it. I've run into disrespectful new officers from all commissioning sources. Think this is more of an individual thing, not how they were commissioned.

Response by TSgt Denise Moody made Oct 13 at 2016 1:21 PM

2016-10-13T13:21:51-04:00

I don't know. I would look at it like any other schooling situation. Examples are 8th grader going into high school. The 8th grader was top of the heap. Big guy/gal on campus and then in the space of one summer was the bottom of the barrel. High school senior to college freshman the same. So the 2th Lt coming out of ROTC or an Academy or a Capt out of OTS may have a chip on their shoulder that needs to be knocked off. Using the regs and chain of command worked for us...back in the day ;)