Do you believe that Colleges/and Universities should offer a missing man table/fallen comrade table in their dining facilities?

2015-11-01T09:24:03-05:00

Hello Rallypoint Brothers and Sisters, I have been thinking of our Fallen and Missing military service-members; not to forget those who are Prisoner's of War. I currently am a Freshman at The Penn State University at University Park, PA. There are several Veteran organizations, and an ROTC program to match, here on campus. Many students, as you may have guessed, are Veterans. So for that reason, and even without it, I propose the following question:

"Do you believe that Colleges/and Universities should offer a missing man table/fallen comrade table; in their dining facilities?"

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Nov 1 at 2015 9:29 AM

2015-11-01T09:29:45-05:00

I think it would be a great gesture however, it is probably a bridge too far to expect civilians to understand the significance when we have some service members or those that work with the military every day that do not understand. I believe that would be trouble waiting to happen, you get the wrong Veteran there when someone makes a stupid mistake or the Vet that is just having a very bad day....could be very bad for the ignorant student....

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2015 9:33 AM

2015-11-01T09:33:25-05:00

Shouldn't be a requirement by any means, but would be great for ROTC or vets to make it happen.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Nov 1 at 2015 9:54 AM

2015-11-01T09:54:04-05:00

Does your school offer this table? If not, take it up with the ROTC detachment and/or Student Veteran organizations and see if they are willing to sponsor one with the school's approval.

Response by MSgt John Carroll made Nov 1 at 2015 9:58 AM

2015-11-01T09:58:43-05:00

Absolutely not. It is a military tradition not a civilian tradition. Most students wouldn't care nor be interested enough to learn the reasoning behind each piece. Just my $0.02

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Nov 1 at 2015 10:30 AM

2015-11-01T10:30:57-05:00

Not a good idea. These tables are a "military thing". It would be interesting if some students would set one up on Memorial Day, exhibiting their free speech. In our current society, the campus police would probably make them take it down as it incites a confrontation.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2015 10:38 AM

2015-11-01T10:38:45-05:00

No. They are civilian institutions. And as much as it may frustrate us vets at how some civilians are clueless to our plight and those who never made it home, it is the reason that we serve. So that the sheep may live in blissful ignorance. It is their right as Americans.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2015 10:53 AM

2015-11-01T10:53:03-05:00

I think that a good ROTC program that not only teaches tactical skills and leadership but military history will provide a deep desire to honor the traditions and individuals that served to pave the way for our current military personnel. In that, the institution will be more than willing to honor the fallen for special occasions.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Nov 1 at 2015 11:00 AM

2015-11-01T11:00:14-05:00

Most civilians will not understand and it will slowly loose the meaning. Na, it should stay with in the military community.

Response by SSG Todd Halverson made Nov 1 at 2015 11:09 AM

2015-11-01T11:09:37-05:00

No, it is a table of honor that only the Military will truly understand. If everyone started doing it, the true idea and meaning would be lost.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Nov 1 at 2015 11:12 AM

2015-11-01T11:12:45-05:00

Yes.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2015 11:16 AM

2015-11-01T11:16:21-05:00

I am torn on this one. Yes, if there are those who know what it is and respect it. Otherwise no.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Nov 1 at 2015 11:17 AM

2015-11-01T11:17:30-05:00

CSM Michael J. Uhlig could not have put it better!!

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Nov 1 at 2015 11:42 AM

2015-11-01T11:42:28-05:00

Yes, as a minimum, to repay those that invested a portion of their lives making it possible for them to exist.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Nov 1 at 2015 12:35 PM

2015-11-01T12:35:04-05:00

It would be too much to expect our institutions of higher learning to repect those who have paid the ultimate price for our freedom.

Response by PO2 Jonathan Scharff made Nov 1 at 2015 12:42 PM

2015-11-01T12:42:17-05:00

My son graduated from Penn State two years ago and was in the ROTC program. I can personally state that every dining in and dining out had one of these tables.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2015 2:35 PM

2015-11-01T14:35:59-05:00

Normally, I would say yes but there would end up being SOOOOOO many students (and possibly some faculty) that would take offense to this table and just create more sh*tstorm than is needed/wanted.

Response by CPT Richard Riley made Nov 1 at 2015 5:12 PM

2015-11-01T17:12:25-05:00

As those before my comment have stated, expecting understanding is too much to ask for. Simply offering a 'space' without comprehending what it represents is a shallow gesture. It may cause more problems than it garners positive attention for the symbol of what it really means.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2015 6:11 PM

2015-11-01T18:11:50-05:00

It would be a nice gesture, particularly on the part of ROTC cadets, but only if done properly and only if the table isn't messed with.

Response by PO2 Jonathan Scharff made Nov 1 at 2015 7:29 PM

2015-11-01T19:29:42-05:00

If you are asking if there should be one in the Hub then I would say absolutely not.

On a side note as MOH LT Michael Murphy is a Penn State grad there is a large memorial in the center of campus for him. When my son was commissioned the first place he wanted to go was the memorial to pay his respect. Penn State is very respectful of our serving military and our vets.

Response by MSgt Wayne Morris made Nov 2 at 2015 7:17 AM

2015-11-02T07:17:31-05:00

With most colleges and universities run by liberal and or socialist today, why poke the bear? Most have accepted vets and while there is nothing wrong with honoring fallen brothers & sisters look for another means. As a Vietnam vet who initially did my 2 year stint and tried college, the atmosphere was not veteran friendly like today and the risk of changing from a friendly to antagonistic one is not worth the risk.

Response by Sgt Spencer Sikder made Nov 2 at 2015 10:32 AM

2015-11-02T10:32:56-05:00

I like your thinking, but feel it begins the diminish the significance if people begin to see it everywhere. Maybe during some commemorative program that the school maybe conducting, for let's say Veterans Day and the ROTC is presenting it with the explanation of what the symbols mean. But afterwards, taken down.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2015 11:26 AM

2015-11-02T11:26:24-05:00

It is their free will to do so, most civilian don't understand that .... even my wife during the Navy Ball, need a reminder for her to understand it.

Response by CW3 Jim Norris made Nov 2 at 2015 12:32 PM

2015-11-02T12:32:27-05:00

Not the Universities realm. We do so in every dining facility, and that is appropriate. My VFW chapter has one. You'd probably have some students disrespect the display and here we go.....so, let's keep our traditions within our ranks. Make sure all the ROTC meal functions have the Fallen and Missing table, and remember them in your day to day life and prayers....go get'em Sarge......Jim

Response by CDR Skip Yates made Nov 2 at 2015 12:38 PM

2015-11-02T12:38:58-05:00

No. Wrong venue and would be way too easily to be vandalized and disrespected.... and on today's campus, probably would be.

Response by TSgt David Holman made Nov 2 at 2015 1:16 PM

2015-11-02T13:16:23-05:00

No. I understand wanting to show veteran support with such actions, but it is very specific to the military, and lends itself to a great amount of disrespect to those that don't understand it. I have seen tables in DFACs messed with, and that is by military members.

Response by SSG Audwin Scott made Nov 2 at 2015 2:17 PM

2015-11-02T14:17:25-05:00

I don't see anything wrong with it especially if they have an ROTC program at their Campus.

Response by PFC Robert Falk made Nov 2 at 2015 2:26 PM

2015-11-02T14:26:30-05:00

I think it would be a great idea. Also have a video playing of the reason the table is done and the military go through all the steps.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2015 3:07 PM

2015-11-02T15:07:38-05:00

At Delaware Technical Community College, we provide the ceremony and the table at our events where we serve chow on Veterans Day. Folks really enjoy it. However, I can't see this happening on a daily basis. There are other pro-military items on constant display around the various campuses, however.

Response by COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM made Nov 2 at 2015 3:27 PM

2015-11-02T15:27:24-05:00

Do you believe that Colleges/and Universities should offer a missing man table/fallen comrade table; in their dining facilities? No, for the following reasons:
1. A fallen comrade table is a military tradition, not a civilian tradition. A fallen comrade table should only be set up when comrades (military members) are present.
2. Most students would not know or understand the purpose of the tradition and therefore would not honor or value it as a service member does value and honor it.
3. Most dining facilities would not be able to set up the fallen comrade table correctly or keep it set up correctly. Setting up the table poorly is worse than not doing the table at all.
4. I disagree with the statement that "many students are veterans". The US population is about 320 million and there are less than 3 million service members (1%). Many is defined as "constituting or forming a large number; numerous". Not sure how one gets to "a large number" from 1%.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2015 5:58 PM

2015-11-02T17:58:19-05:00

I would say yes and no, depends on the school. Some schools have a large number of military members, others do not. The schools that do have a large number of military and/or veterans, then why not have something? At most schools this is not going to be the case, and unfortunately I do not feel the majority of these students would even understand it and just be upset that's it taking up a table they could otherwise use.

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Nov 2 at 2015 8:22 PM

2015-11-02T20:22:38-05:00

SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres without reading other responses, NO. College is College. Should there be appreciation and support of Vets? YES. But leave the POW/MIA table to the Military, where it belongs.
That being said, if a ROTC unit or Veteran's organization were to get permission to set one up (properly), for a specific time frame, and ensure that it were supervised for the duration of time it were set up, I might be ok with it. But it could not be a display that you could set up and leave. Some idiot would mess with it, thinking they were expressing their freedom of speech and then there might be issues.....

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2015 9:53 PM

2015-11-02T21:53:04-05:00

No. We do not need to impose our ways onto civilians.
We have our traditions, we understand them.

Response by 1stSgt John Sims made Nov 3 at 2015 7:06 AM

2015-11-03T07:06:31-05:00

No, time and place. Of the thousands in attendance on campus the table would mean nothing or be an intrusion. Remember we serve in the military for everyone, even those who do not apprecieate us. Respect the neutrality of the campus. I know this is hard to do. I work as a sustitute teacher, and some schools say the pledge of allegiance, some do not.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2015 8:17 AM

2015-11-03T08:17:57-05:00

Definitely a great/respectful gesture, but I would say probably not a good idea. Like MSgt Carroll and others have said, it's our tradition. Not a civilian institution's. It would not have the same effect on a college kid just grabbing lunch before class who sees the table as it would for you or one of Penn State's other Veterans. Plus, I also think (and know, being a recent college grad) that college dining halls get rowdy and boisterous and just generally irreverent. That's no place for a table honoring our fallen brothers and sisters and those who have served.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2015 8:23 AM

2015-11-03T08:23:45-05:00

No. It is a strong symbolic message to military personnel, but civilians just wouldn't get it.

Response by SSG John Gillespie made Nov 3 at 2015 9:48 AM

2015-11-03T09:48:42-05:00

Absolutely not. They wouldn't understand, nor should they be expected to. All things have their proper time and place. Despite the number of veterans in attendance, that is not the place for military customs and traditions.

Response by CAPT Hiram Patterson made Nov 3 at 2015 9:58 AM

2015-11-03T09:58:06-05:00

Nice idea but with what is going on with universities these days I wouldn't do it. Most students and administrators would have no clue about what it means.

Response by Cpl Karrolann Falls made Nov 3 at 2015 10:53 AM

2015-11-03T10:53:03-05:00

No, key here is Respect. There is a time and place for this. Special events

Response by SPC Michael Clark made Nov 3 at 2015 11:23 AM

2015-11-03T11:23:34-05:00

Listen, as active duty and Veterans, we do not need every single establishment to tickle our pickles.

If you joined for the glory, you're going to be in a world of hurt.

The sad truth is that nobody cares that you or I served...

You will be thrown to the wolves if you flaunt your service like that.

Be humble, be kind and be respectful.

Response by MSgt Robert Kagel made Nov 3 at 2015 12:17 PM

2015-11-03T12:17:46-05:00

I don't think there would be any value added to having something like that in a University, and I really think such a display would wind up being a target for pranks, and then the vets would be upset, and then well, it would get ugly.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2015 1:48 PM

2015-11-03T13:48:37-05:00

While a worthwhile idea in itself, I would have to say that I don't think that universities should offer a missing man/fallen comrade table at their dining facilities. Having said that, maybe the on-campus Veterans organizations and ROTC could get together and request such a thing on Veterans Day, 4th July and Memorial Day. The organizations can then couple this with a display with information on the meaning behind the missing man/fallen comrade table.
However, it should be voluntary. One of the issues I am having these days is certain members of the political spectrum are making almost mandatory for everyone in the country to believe the way they do (and this is both sides of the political aisle, not just left the political parties). I always dislike being told to be liberal, conservative, pro-immigrant, anti-immigrant, pro-Christmas, anti-Christmas etc.
Thanks for the thought provoking question though. I hope you manage to get something done on your campus with your Veterans organizations.
Respectfully

Response by SFC William Adamek made Nov 3 at 2015 1:58 PM

2015-11-03T13:58:36-05:00

Other than being a military tradition, it probably wouldn't get approved and definitely wont be appreciated by the majority.

Little know fact but easily proven... the term "veteran friendly campus" only applies to supporting how much federal money they can get for veteran students.

Go to the Diversity department of any just about any College/University or even k-12) and ask them what their percentage is (this is public information and has to be provided upon request) of veteran staff and faculty. You will be shocked. I went to a couple and did this. Western Washington University, in a county that has a veteran population of 14% for those 18 years and older, has a veteran staff and faculty percentage of 4.7%.

Might be better to have your JROTC to the table at one of their special events only

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Nov 3 at 2015 2:23 PM

2015-11-03T14:23:27-05:00

If they choose to, sure. But forcing it would be eliminate any value...

Response by Sgt Lew Dunham made Nov 3 at 2015 2:48 PM

2015-11-03T14:48:21-05:00

I never knew about such a thing until my band played at a local Military Ball a couple of years ago. Our guitar player was a retired Navy musician (23 years) and handled the ceremony. It is explained in this article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_man_table

Missing man table - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Missing Man Table, also known as the Fallen Comrade Table,[1] is a semi-official place of honor in some dining facilities of the U.S. armed forces in memory of fallen, missing, or imprisoned military service-members.[2] The table serves as the focal point of ceremonial remembrance, originally growing out of US concern of the Vietnam War POW/MIA issue.[3][4]

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2015 7:51 PM

2015-11-03T19:51:03-05:00

I would rather have it not happen, rather than to have done "just because" and not capture the true mean of honoring our fallen Soldiers!

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made Nov 4 at 2015 5:44 AM

2015-11-04T05:44:08-05:00

No way.

Response by MSgt Hal Weeden, MBA made Nov 4 at 2015 9:14 AM

2015-11-04T09:14:54-05:00

No. And yes.

As so many have previously said, civilian schools are not military institutions and the meaning of the table would likely be lost and proper maintenance of the table lacking. With that said, it is our responsibility as the military community to educate the general public as to the sacrifices those who have gone before us have made that allow the freedom of education we enjoy today.

Therefore, if the school has an ROTC unit or an active veterans organization, I think it would be appropriate to conduct a missing man ceremony in their dining facility on National POW/MIA Recognition Day in September or on Veterans Day, and provide an honor guard to protect it for that one day. A handout explaining the significance of the table and the meaning of the individual elements could be offered. Perhaps Memorial Day would be a more appropriate setting, but most colleges are not in session in late May.

Most students may not be interested in such a table; however, if even one or two are reached, I would consider the event a success.

Response by CMSgt Mark Lewis made Nov 4 at 2015 2:13 PM

2015-11-04T14:13:51-05:00

No, I do not think colleges and universities should display such an honored table in their dining facilities. This is a military tradition that pays homage to those military men and women who gave their all whether as a KIA, POW, or MIA and that honor would most likely be lost to the vast majority of civilians and/or college students. I would suggest that those student military organizations on colleges and universities have some type of display in their area or during military balls, etc as a way to pass on that tradition to students in those organizations and as a means to educate those they come in contact with.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2015 2:44 PM

2015-11-04T14:44:28-05:00

No, it might offend somebody.

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made Nov 4 at 2015 3:55 PM

2015-11-04T15:55:10-05:00

I do not think it would be a good idea, this is a military thing and it will be lost on most of those not associated with the military.
And I think that there would be some protesting the table or defacing it in some immature and ignorant way. Just look at Cal State Irvine, they initially voted to remove the American flag from student areas, how much more would they protest if a POW/MIA table was there.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2015 4:24 PM

2015-11-04T16:24:50-05:00

I do not believe they would truly understand the significance of it and would not honor it the way it is intended to.

Response by SN Willyum Ivy made Nov 4 at 2015 6:16 PM

2015-11-04T18:16:14-05:00

sure ! and a Blown up Baby Table too ! and one for Survivors Of Blown Up Hospitals ! and a Table for the warriors of Peace, who were shot in the streets protesting the V.N. war. and lets have a Table for all those Brave Politicians that send innocent teenagers to kill people they don't know, all for the Profit of their Defense Contractor Buddies. Especially Them !

Response by SN Willyum Ivy made Nov 4 at 2015 6:18 PM

2015-11-04T18:18:06-05:00

do they have a Table at Kent State to the Students that were killed there by the National Guard ?

Response by PO3 William Bishop made Nov 4 at 2015 7:04 PM

2015-11-04T19:04:17-05:00

I sure do....US HAVY....100% disable but close to death. HELL the VA is our problem
I am part Cherokee, just need go to Medicine MAN, cause the MDs are 2 years away
and none speak ENGLISH I have 14 doctors and none are from the USA. They should just shake the bones in the bag and tell me what is there. They got me on 4 Morphine pills a day. I loved this country then, but the more shit they do, the more I want to move.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2015 7:58 PM

2015-11-04T19:58:16-05:00

No, not a good idea.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Nov 5 at 2015 12:30 AM

2015-11-05T00:30:05-05:00

Civilian Institutions? No.

Response by SPC Donald Tribble made Nov 5 at 2015 3:19 AM

2015-11-05T03:19:35-05:00

It's a nice idea, but would be meaningless to the majority. I would prefer to see it saved for ROTC/JROTC formal dinners and military DFACS where the meaning would not be lost on those who see it.

Response by SSgt Michael Cox made Nov 6 at 2015 5:50 PM

2015-11-06T17:50:58-05:00

At Spokane Community College were I am currently posted the Student Veterans Organization created and placed a POW/MIA table with full dinning set and flag but went a few steps further than you see on base usually. The table is cordoned off, has description of what the table represents and why it is there. The veterans here on campus are very protective of it and the civilian students especially the younger ones that have never seen the display before come by and look at it and read the description. Sometimes I will even hear them talking about it as i pass through the cafeteria. The mayor also added it to the city wide list of veteran monuments and displays.

Response by SSG Keith Fosmire made Nov 19 at 2015 6:33 AM

2015-11-19T06:33:15-05:00

I wish we could have that! The problem is some student trying to recreate the 60's will disrespect the table and we would have to knock their teeth out. I am a college student and am overwhelmed by the ignorance of this newer generation. It is as if they have acquired all their knowledge from comic books, Dr. Phil, Oprah and Bozo the Clown! I wear a POW shirt, because I know there are men like you out there who know the value of our fallen.

Response by LCDR Charles Hollingsworth, Jr made Dec 17 at 2016 12:33 AM

2016-12-17T00:33:11-05:00

As a PSU alumni Ph.D class of 1990 with a lifetime membership, I speak for myself; but I think doing this would only dilute the meaning of those who served. May I suggest a memorial site similar to the Vietnam War Museum and have it situated near the Nittany Lion statue site? I think this would be more befitting.

Response by SGT Loren Hammons made Jan 29 at 2024 10:39 PM

2024-01-29T22:39:45-05:00

Some have done so on special occasions.